The Future QB of the Steelers is...

[teegre]

Watching highlights of the Texans game got me thinking...

The Texans have surrounded Deshaun Watson with absolutely nothing. Ergo, once again, they are picking in the top 5... with a bunch of QBs available. Also, the Texans are desperate for draft picks. They could unload Watson’s contract, and use that money to sign free agents to surround the (inexpensive) rookie QB. Plus, by trading Watson, they could recoup a bunch of draft picks. As in:

Colbert could trade our ENTIRE draft to the Texans in exchange for Deshaun Watson.

It is a win-win. :nod:

With Watson having so many years left on his deal, Khan could easily push that money down the road (in order to keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu).

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Watching highlights of the Texans game got me thinking...

The Texans have surrounded Deshaun Watson with absolutely nothing. Ergo, once again, they are picking in the top 5... with a bunch of QBs available. Also, the Texans are desperate for draft picks. They could unload Watson’s contract, and use that money to sign free agents to surround the (inexpensive) rookie QB. Plus, by trading Watson, they could recoup a bunch of draft picks. As in:

Colbert could trade our ENTIRE draft to the Texans in exchange for Deshaun Watson.

It is a win-win. :nod:

With Watson having so many years left on his deal, Khan could easily push that money down the road (in order to keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu). I like him but no thanks Mike Ditka!

- - - Updated - - -

Serious sooner trade the whole draft for Trevor! If you are going to that extreme get the better Clemson QB.

[Drazo85]

Watching highlights of the Texans game got me thinking...

The Texans have surrounded Deshaun Watson with absolutely nothing. Ergo, once again, they are picking in the top 5... with a bunch of QBs available. Also, the Texans are desperate for draft picks. They could unload Watson’s contract, and use that money to sign free agents to surround the (inexpensive) rookie QB. Plus, by trading Watson, they could recoup a bunch of draft picks. As in:

Colbert could trade our ENTIRE draft to the Texans in exchange for Deshaun Watson.

It is a win-win. :nod:

With Watson having so many years left on his deal, Khan could easily push that money down the road (in order to keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu).Texans first rounder belongs to Dolphins this year because of the Tunsil trade.

Послато са Mi A1 помоћу Тапатока

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Ps. Watson has been a bum lately!

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

This isn't going to happen but if you retain Ben do you keep Trevor on the Bench all season ?

[teegre]

Texans first rounder belongs to Dolphins this year because of the Tunsil trade.

Послато са Mi A1 помоћу Тапатока

:doh: That’s right.

- - - Updated - - -


Ps. Watson has been a bum lately!

2nd in passing yards
3rd in completion percentage
2nd in passer rating

- - - Updated - - -



Serious sooner trade the whole draft for Trevor! If you are going to that extreme get the better Clemson QB.

If the Jaguars would do it, I’m game. But, a top tier QB on his rookie contract would require a LOT more to acquire. Whereas, the Texans are being hamstrung from BoB’s crappy trades (i.e. they need draft picks plus cap space).

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Heck you are talking about trading our whole draft! That could actually get it done for Trevor! Again sooner give it up for him and am a fan of Watson! None will happen of course!

[teegre]

Heck you are talking about trading our whole draft! That could actually get it done for Trevor! Again sooner give it up for him and am a fan of Watson! None will happen of course!

Let’s say we fizzle out of the playoffs... and pick 20th. That is roughly 1600 points for ALL of our picks. The first overall is worth 3000. (Not enough to move up to #1.)

And, Yes, if I could get Watson for all of our picks, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Most drafts, teams are lucky to walk away with a starter, a good backup, a decent backup, and a special teamer... because, most draft picks fizzle out. We gave up a R1 & a R2 for an ILB. I’d say throwing in a R3 (decent backup) and camp fodder (R4-R7) would be worth it.

QB > ILB

I know, I know: there’s always a Tom Brady or an AB in those later-rounds. True, but only one per draft. I’d give up that chance (at striking gold) in order to have a young, proven franchise QB.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Let’s say we fizzle out of the playoffs... and pick 20th. That is roughly 1600 points for ALL of our picks. The first overall is worth 3000. (Not enough to move up to #1.)

And, Yes, if I could get Watson for all of our picks, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Most drafts, teams are lucky to walk away with a starter, a good backup, a decent backup, and a special teamer... because, most draft picks fizzle out. We gave up a R1 & a R2 for an ILB. I’d say throwing in a R3 (decent backup) and camp fodder (R4-R7) would be worth it.

QB > ILB

I know, I know: there’s always a Tom Brady or an AB in those later-rounds. True, but only one per draft. I’d give up that chance (at striking gold) in order to have a young, proven franchise QB. I get it but don't think Watson is worth all that and I do like him.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Task looks like hot dog poo tonight and don't want him.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Oops I didn't know his 4 wr's are out and wouldn't have bet on them as well.

[st33lersguy]

Watson is a good option, it's likely though that he's not for sale.

[Born2Steel]

The entire draft for any current QB is a terrible idea, IMO. Too much need at CB, OL, RB, possibly TE and OLB too. Steelers need another big draft this year. Ben is back next season to try for 2 in a row and #4 of 5. QB is a need but not at the expense of the team.

[teegre]

The entire draft for any current QB is a terrible idea, IMO. Too much need at CB, OL, RB, possibly TE and OLB too. Steelers need another big draft this year. Ben is back next season to try for 2 in a row and #4 of 5. QB is a need but not at the expense of the team.

I disagree. When I look at most draft classes, even the good draft classes like the 2017 draft, you only have four players who make the team. I can see your point in getting Watt, JuJu, Conner, and Sutton. But, those draft classes are very rare.

Whereas, the 2015, 2016 and 2018 draft classes are more what routinely occurs. I’d trade any of those draft classes for a franchise QB. Last season was a perfect indicator of how limited a team can be when every position EXCEPT for the QB is loaded. As in: I’d take two (even three) less starters at other positions in exchange for a franchise QB.

I thought of Watson, because...
a) he’s young
b) he’s stuck on a terrible team
c) his current team needs draft picks

Maybe Stafford is a more “realistic” QB for whom to trade, but he’s also six years older (making his contract harder to spread out & defer).

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Teegre Why not throw our whole draft to the Jags if they will take it ? I'd sooner have Lawrence then Watson. Would be happy with either though.

[teegre]

Teegre Why not throw our whole draft to the Jags if they will take it ? I'd sooner have Lawrence then Watson. Would be happy with either though.
.


Let’s say we fizzle out of the playoffs... and pick 20th. That is roughly 1600 points for ALL of our picks. The first overall is worth 3000. (Not enough to move up to #1.)

[katmandu]

Let’s say we fizzle out of the playoffs... and pick 20th. That is roughly 1600 points for ALL of our picks. The first overall is worth 3000. (Not enough to move up to #1.) What are these points you speak of ??

[teegre]

What are these points you speak of ??

It’s a draft trade-value chart. It was started by Jimmy Johnson in the early 90s as a way to figure out how much a team should give up in order to trade up up in the draft.

[Dwinsgames]

my biggest issue with the talk of trading a entire draft class for Watson is we do not know Bens intentions ....

a entire draft class sounds like a lot but look what teams trade away for the top pick 2 and a couple seconds and more .... Watson is a proven commodity thus easily worth a draft class , actually worth that and the next years 1st ... the old saying a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush ... you could draft a QB in the first round the next 10 drafts and not get one as good ...

remember these guys where all highly thought of prior to being drafted in round 1

Daniel Jones
Dwayne Haskins
Baker Mayfield
Sam Darnold
Jameis Winston
Josh Rosen
Mitchell Trubisky
Carson Wentz
Paxton Lynch
Marcus Mariota

they do not all "suck" but would anyone here spend a 1st rounder on any of them right now ?

and that is just going back to 2016 it gets much worse if you go back a dozen years or so ...

someone offers Watson up for 1 years worth of draft picks only a fool passes

[teegre]

@Dwins

Exactly :nod:

I see it this way:

R1 draft pick QB
R1 for Watson
That’s a wash.

R2 was used to trade up for an ILB
R2 used to trade up for a franchise QB
Again, that’s a wash.

R3-R7 most are low-impact camp-fodder
R3-R7 for one year, we can survive “low depth”
Ensures that we don’t repeat 2019

[Iron Steeler]

@Dwins

Exactly :nod:

I see it this way:

R1 draft pick QB
R1 for Watson
That’s a wash.

R2 was used to trade up for an ILB
R2 used to trade up for a franchise QB
Again, that’s a wash.

R3-R7 most are low-impact camp-fodder
R3-R7 for one year, we can survive “low depth”
Ensures that we don’t repeat 2019

Here how I would do it.

Steelers give up :This years 1st and 2nd and next years 1st
Texans give: Deshawn Watson and JJ Watt

If they say "no you cant have Watt" then I start taking picks away.

[teegre]

Here how I would do it.

Steelers give up :This years 1st and 2nd and next years 1st
Texans give: Deshawn Watson and JJ Watt

If they say "no you cant have Watt" then I start taking picks away.

If BoB was still there, this would come to fruition... :lol:

[Born2Steel]

I disagree. When I look at most draft classes, even the good draft classes like the 2017 draft, you only have four players who make the team. I can see your point in getting Watt, JuJu, Conner, and Sutton. But, those draft classes are very rare.

Whereas, the 2015, 2016 and 2018 draft classes are more what routinely occurs. I’d trade any of those draft classes for a franchise QB. Last season was a perfect indicator of how limited a team can be when every position EXCEPT for the QB is loaded. As in: I’d take two (even three) less starters at other positions in exchange for a franchise QB.

I thought of Watson, because...
a) he’s young
b) he’s stuck on a terrible team
c) his current team needs draft picks

Maybe Stafford is a more “realistic” QB for whom to trade, but he’s also six years older (making his contract harder to spread out & defer).

I could and probably would agree if I didn't think Ben is coming back for the 2021 season. Trading away the draft class for a QB to back him up would be worse than drafting MR when we need help elsewhere, per Ben's response. In the OP you stated how the Texans are picking top5 again because it's Watson and nobody else. Without addressing the run game, and getting enough protection for things to get deeper, the offense only gets worse, not better whoever is at QB.

All that said, if Ben retired, JuJu walks, Conner walks, and Pouncey and/or DeCastro retire with Ben, then getting the next franchise QB at any cost would be the first move I would want to make. Then build a team around him. So in that respect I would be all in on trading away the draft for 'our guy'. I just really think now would be bad timing for that move though.

[teegre]

@Born2Steel

Aha... I see your logic.

Yes, my entire thinking is based on Ben retiring.

[Mojouw]

Two firsts and another pick for a seamless transition to the next 10 years at QB?

There is no counter-argument. I mean you can make one and it can be logical and whatnot, but getting a top tier NFL QB when you don't have one is the first and only priority.

Make no mistake, even with the second half against the Colts, the Steelers do NOT have a top tier NFL QB any longer.

[Fire Goodell]

Minshew Mania, bring the pornstache to the 'burgh

[Mojouw]

Minshew Mania, bring the pornstache to the 'burgh

At least he is basically the younger version of Fitzpatrick. So he could basically toss INTs and lose football games for years to come.

[Fire Goodell]

At least he is basically the younger version of Fitzpatrick. So he could basically toss INTs and lose football games for years to come.

To his credit he's played for a terrible team. I think on a decent team he could be alright. Though he's the type of QB that probably needs a running game to succeed.

[Edman]

Two firsts and another pick for a seamless transition to the next 10 years at QB?

There is no counter-argument. I mean you can make one and it can be logical and whatnot, but getting a top tier NFL QB when you don't have one is the first and only priority.

Make no mistake, even with the second half against the Colts, the Steelers do NOT have a top tier NFL QB any longer.

To be fair, the Steelers haven't had a "top tier" QB for many years now. Ben even in his prime was among the top of the second-tier "very good" class, but never among the "elite" QB's.

It looked like Ben finally graduated to top tier for the 11-0 stretch, until, well... you know.

Finding a "Top-tier" quarterback is rare and impossible in this day and age. The best the Steelers can do is just find their guy and go for it.

[Mojouw]

To his credit he's played for a terrible team. I think on a decent team he could be alright. Though he's the type of QB that probably needs a running game to succeed.

He has a below average arm. Rugged footwork and a tendency to throw INTs in bunches. Might as well have Roethlisberger come back and play like he did for much of the past month.

- - - Updated - - -


To be fair, the Steelers haven't had a "top tier" QB for many years now. Ben even in his prime was among the top of the second-tier "very good" class, but never among the "elite" QB's.

It looked like Ben finally graduated to top tier for the 11-0 stretch, until, well... you know.

Finding a "Top-tier" quarterback is rare and impossible in this day and age. The best the Steelers can do is just find their guy and go for it.

I mean we can quibble about the various words and rankings but for much of his career, Ben R was annually one of the top 10 (or better) QBs in the entire NFL. That is elite/top tier or whatever you want to call it.

With Ben R under center, the Steelers were in almost any game they played in. That is about all you can ask for.

If you roll out QBs 16-32, there are multiple games per season that you just have such a small chance of winning. It is a massive handicap to overcome.

[Born2Steel]

The future QB for the Steelers for the playoffs and next season is Ben R Rockstar. Make no mistake, this is his team until he leaves it. Drafting a better backup/emergency QB is A GOOD IDEA, but it will not yield immediate results. Those looking for an instant upgrade to this offense merely needs to want WRs to catch the balls consistently put into their hands. It's not flashy but it keeps the chains moving and puts points on the board.

[Fire Goodell]

How Ben looks in the postseason is going to decide his future with the team. If he plays like shit, the front office will have to start seriously looking for a long term replacement ASAP. Though his cap hit is front-loaded, so it's likely that he will still be the starter next year (19M I believe? Which is really a low cap hit for a starting QB)

[Rotorhead]

We only really need OL, so I am all for trading the entire draft for Watson, he is like a mini Mahomes with no talent around him. We would really only need to replace our C, and a tackle, but we could even keep AV because Watson is mobile enough to make up for an average OL.

[EzraTank]

If Bill O'Brien was still their GM they probably would trade him for Mason Rudolph straight up.

[that1guy]

How Ben looks in the postseason is going to decide his future with the team. If he plays like shit, the front office will have to start seriously looking for a long term replacement ASAP. Though his cap hit is front-loaded, so it's likely that he will still be the starter next year (19M I believe? Which is really a low cap hit for a starting QB)
I agree, If Ben reverts back to the inaccurate, tired-armed QB of the last several weeks the FO has no choice but to begin the search for a replacement. There are 2 options, draft a QB ( trading up is always an option) in the '21 draft and allow the future QB to sit and learn behind Ben. Option 2 is to address other areas of need (OL and RB) then wait Until '22 to draft a QB and let him get pointers for Rudolph and Dobbs. It's 100% worth it IMO to trade up into the Top 10 and get a guy that is truly desired and let him soak up knowledge from Ben.

[Born2Steel]

I agree, If Ben reverts back to the inaccurate, tired-armed QB of the last several weeks the FO has no choice but to begin the search for a replacement. There are 2 options, draft a QB ( trading up is always an option) in the '21 draft and allow the future QB to sit and learn behind Ben. Option 2 is to address other areas of need (OL and RB) then wait Until '22 to draft a QB and let him get pointers for Rudolph and Dobbs. It's 100% worth it IMO to trade up into the Top 10 and get a guy that is truly desired and let him soak up knowledge from Ben.

First....understand mechanics. Ben was throwing with one leg under him. Those downfield throws are going to be inaccurate more often than not without both feet/legs involved. The question is whether or not Ben was worse than his backups WITH the knee injury.
Second....Ben is the QB until this contract runs out or he retires. Bringing in another QB right now is pointless to this season. It does NOTHING to improve the team now.
Third....IF the WRs could simply catch the passes thrown into their hands, and THEN try to make a play upfield, Ben is throwing at about an 80% completion rate and keeps moving the chains. That by itself puts more points, and therefore wins, on the board.


To look at a season and point to one player and say this is why we lost the #1 seed is beyond silly. Just plain not smart. To think Ben goes from comeback player of the year to not even worthy of leading this offense because of TEAM losses is moronic. MORONIC. But people have to find a reason(scapegoat) for anything that doesn't give them instant gratification. This 'let's jump on the rookie QB carousel and hope we get the next franchise guy immediately OR everybody gets fired for not drafting right' thinking is beyond what I'm really willing to say on here yet. But.. have fun 'cause that's how most of you think.

[that1guy]

First....understand mechanics. Ben was throwing with one leg under him. Those downfield throws are going to be inaccurate more often than not without both feet/legs involved. The question is whether or not Ben was worse than his backups WITH the knee injury.
Second....Ben is the QB until this contract runs out or he retires. Bringing in another QB right now is pointless to this season. It does NOTHING to improve the team now.
Third....IF the WRs could simply catch the passes thrown into their hands, and THEN try to make a play upfield, Ben is throwing at about an 80% completion rate and keeps moving the chains. That by itself puts more points, and therefore wins, on the board.


To look at a season and point to one player and say this is why we lost the #1 seed is beyond silly. Just plain not smart. To think Ben goes from comeback player of the year to not even worthy of leading this offense because of TEAM losses is moronic. MORONIC. But people have to find a reason(scapegoat) for anything that doesn't give them instant gratification. This 'let's jump on the rookie QB carousel and hope we get the next franchise guy immediately OR everybody gets fired for not drafting right' thinking is beyond what I'm really willing to say on here yet. But.. have fun 'cause that's how most of you think.

How would drafting a QB the year before Ben retires be pointless? When Ben was drafted he sat on the bench and waited. The idea that Ben will suddenly discover the fountain of youth and plays another 3 seasons is simply wishful thinking. I'm not aware of anyone who has knowledge of this team who believes Ben alone shoulders the blame for the late season hiccup thats impacted the Steelers. I would rather draft a QB (assuming the Steelers find him) and not wait until they absolutely have to find one than pick up a guy that another team gives away. The fact is the Steelers need to get younger at the QB position and its really an issue that cannot be ignored

[CV1]

I’ll withhold judgement of Rudy til this weekends game...

https://media1.giphy.com/media/RJxadIFbgLkXqppHVE/giphy.gif

I’d honestly rather see Duck in this iteration of the offense. [emoji1787]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

How would drafting a QB the year before Ben retires be pointless? When Ben was drafted he sat on the bench and waited. The idea that Ben will suddenly discover the fountain of youth and plays another 3 seasons is simply wishful thinking. I'm not aware of anyone who has knowledge of this team who believes Ben alone shoulders the blame for the late season hiccup thats impacted the Steelers. I would rather draft a QB (assuming the Steelers find him) and not wait until they absolutely have to find one than pick up a guy that another team gives away. The fact is the Steelers need to get younger at the QB position and its really an issue that cannot be ignored
For 2+ games.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Fields is looking great tonight.

[teegre]

Fields is looking great tonight.

When Fields is good, he’s really, reeeally good. My problem with him is that when he is pressured, he looks awful. A QB won’t last long in the NFL playing scared.

Currently, I’m loving Desmond Ridder. I watched him today, and WOW!!! what an arm!!!

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

When Fields is good, he’s really, reeeally good. My problem with him is that when he is pressured, he looks awful. A QB won’t last long in the NFL playing scared.

Currently, I’m loving Desmond Ridder. I watched him today, and WOW!!! what an arm!!!I thought Ridder was going to get that one first and end the game. I still won money on them. Mac Jones is interesting and may be there when we pick. Ridder might be there too!

[that1guy]

For 2+ games.

Exactly my point, you never know when your number will be called

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Fields throws a awesome deep ball!

[st33lersguy]

When Fields is good, he’s really, reeeally good. My problem with him is that when he is pressured, he looks awful. A QB won’t last long in the NFL playing scared.

My problem with Fields is that he seems to get banged up A LOT and it's likely due to his run style. I have doubts he will hold up in the NFL

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe possibly trading up for Lance, maybe taking a look at Mac Jones, Trask shouldn't be outright dismissed but his stock took a hit. Other than that, 2022 draft class may be better

[fansince'76]

I mean we can quibble about the various words and rankings but for much of his career, Ben R was annually one of the top 10 (or better) QBs in the entire NFL. That is elite/top tier or whatever you want to call it.

With Ben R under center, the Steelers were in almost any game they played in. That is about all you can ask for.

If you roll out QBs 16-32, there are multiple games per season that you just have such a small chance of winning. It is a massive handicap to overcome.

I think he meant that Ben just missed the "elite" QB club because Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Manning and the like all have so much more career playoff success and so many more SB rings than he does. :coffee:

[Mojouw]

First....understand mechanics. Ben was throwing with one leg under him. Those downfield throws are going to be inaccurate more often than not without both feet/legs involved. The question is whether or not Ben was worse than his backups WITH the knee injury.
Second....Ben is the QB until this contract runs out or he retires. Bringing in another QB right now is pointless to this season. It does NOTHING to improve the team now.
Third....IF the WRs could simply catch the passes thrown into their hands, and THEN try to make a play upfield, Ben is throwing at about an 80% completion rate and keeps moving the chains. That by itself puts more points, and therefore wins, on the board.


To look at a season and point to one player and say this is why we lost the #1 seed is beyond silly. Just plain not smart. To think Ben goes from comeback player of the year to not even worthy of leading this offense because of TEAM losses is moronic. MORONIC. But people have to find a reason(scapegoat) for anything that doesn't give them instant gratification. This 'let's jump on the rookie QB carousel and hope we get the next franchise guy immediately OR everybody gets fired for not drafting right' thinking is beyond what I'm really willing to say on here yet. But.. have fun 'cause that's how most of you think.

Ben's passing was off prior to the Cowboys game as well. So either he comes with pre-injured knees or he is 38 and he isn't what he once was. He played basically 25 minutes of football in 2020 where he looked like he didn't mind getting hit to make plays. He played 25 minutes of football where he used his legs to consistently throw the ball. The rest of the year he rarely stepped into throws, was scattershot in his accuracy over 8-10 yards, and was often late and behind WRs in the short areas.

From what I have read, many believe that the late passes and the fact that the ball either sails over WRs heads or tails off is a guy that is just heaving everything with mostly his arm and not using proper fully body mechanics. Also, during the 3 game stretch of losses, Ben's reads were even crappy.

I am overjoyed that he looked better in the second half against the Colts. And I am hopeful that he can put together a playoff run. Maybe even a magical one. But I still stand by the reality that he is far more done as a QB than not done. If it was my team (and there was not internal knowledge about injury or something else that isn't out there in public) I would be looking for how to gracefully ease him out the door.If not in 2021, then definitely in 2022.

Now, he plays like he did in the last quarter and a half against the Colts in 2 playoff games? Then I will (maybe) buy into the knee injury idea and that he still has a full season in him of above average or better play in 2021+

[Born2Steel]

Ben's passing was off prior to the Cowboys game as well. So either he comes with pre-injured knees or he is 38 and he isn't what he once was. He played basically 25 minutes of football in 2020 where he looked like he didn't mind getting hit to make plays. He played 25 minutes of football where he used his legs to consistently throw the ball. The rest of the year he rarely stepped into throws, was scattershot in his accuracy over 8-10 yards, and was often late and behind WRs in the short areas.

From what I have read, many believe that the late passes and the fact that the ball either sails over WRs heads or tails off is a guy that is just heaving everything with mostly his arm and not using proper fully body mechanics. Also, during the 3 game stretch of losses, Ben's reads were even crappy.

I am overjoyed that he looked better in the second half against the Colts. And I am hopeful that he can put together a playoff run. Maybe even a magical one. But I still stand by the reality that he is far more done as a QB than not done. If it was my team (and there was not internal knowledge about injury or something else that isn't out there in public) I would be looking for how to gracefully ease him out the door.If not in 2021, then definitely in 2022.

Now, he plays like he did in the last quarter and a half against the Colts in 2 playoff games? Then I will (maybe) buy into the knee injury idea and that he still has a full season in him of above average or better play in 2021+

Does this put you on the move on to Rudolph ‘plane’, bring in one of those guys off the FA list ‘train’, or in the start drafting the next golden boy ‘automobile’.
IF the plan is to ‘ease’ Ben out, one of these becomes the new plan. And a commitment to all is a commitment to none and is of no use to anyone. So what really is the better move?

[Mojouw]

Does this put you on the move on to Rudolph ‘plane’, bring in one of those guys off the FA list ‘train’, or in the start drafting the next golden boy ‘automobile’.
IF the plan is to ‘ease’ Ben out, one of these becomes the new plan. And a commitment to all is a commitment to none and is of no use to anyone. So what really is the better move?

Not sure what you are driving at...Ben plays out this season for better or for worse. Then you have a QB depth chart of Rudolph/Dobbs/Hodges/And Best Player You Can find. Whether it is a draft pick or a FA or a Trade Target. Then you have an open competition through the off-season and hope you find your successor. Rinse and repeat until you find someone who doesn't suck.

Not sure what is so complicated or controversial about that. It is the way almost every NFL team transitions from a decade+ "Franchise QB" to whoever is next. The other path is to purge the roster, tear it all down, and accumulate assets for a total rebuild starting in 2022-23. And I don't think this team is that far away from their next window of contention to go down that path.

If it wasn't for the dire cap situation the NFL is forcing on everyone in 2021, this wouldn't be as big of a deal. There would be more avenues for squeezing cap space out of the roster and they would almost certainly be in the running for "insert vet QB starter here". But they likely won't want to gut the depth chart more than they already are going to have to. So I guess draft pick?

[Born2Steel]

When Fields is good, he’s really, reeeally good. My problem with him is that when he is pressured, he looks awful. A QB won’t last long in the NFL playing scared.


Currently, I’m loving Desmond Ridder. I watched him today, and WOW!!! what an arm!!!

As an AAC football guy, I have watched Ridder for a few seasons. Big arm and good mobility. This year Josh Allen/Carson Wentz. ???
My view, my Memphis Tigers defense has never had a problem containing him outside of this season. But that was mostly the Cincy defense honestly.
Ridder is worth taking a long look at but I haven’t seen anything special from him. Maybe the light came on for him this season.

[DesertSteel]

I’d have my eye on Oklahoma QB Rattler when he is eligible. He reminds me of Mahomes.

[Born2Steel]

Not sure what you are driving at...Ben plays out this season for better or for worse. Then you have a QB depth chart of Rudolph/Dobbs/Hodges/And Best Player You Can find. Whether it is a draft pick or a FA or a Trade Target. Then you have an open competition through the off-season and hope you find your successor. Rinse and repeat until you find someone who doesn't suck.

Not sure what is so complicated or controversial about that. It is the way almost every NFL team transitions from a decade+ "Franchise QB" to whoever is next. The other path is to purge the roster, tear it all down, and accumulate assets for a total rebuild starting in 2022-23. And I don't think this team is that far away from their next window of contention to go down that path.

If it wasn't for the dire cap situation the NFL is forcing on everyone in 2021, this wouldn't be as big of a deal. There would be more avenues for squeezing cap space out of the roster and they would almost certainly be in the running for "insert vet QB starter here". But they likely won't want to gut the depth chart more than they already are going to have to. So I guess draft pick?

What I am driving at is simple. Of every scenario you have mentioned Ben is still the better option for this season and next.

In 2020 Ben has a better completion% than his career average, but you(posters) say he's been badly inaccurate. He's averaging 1 yard shorter per pass attempt than his career average, yet you(posters) claim he's become a Charlie Checkdown. His QBR is higher than his career average. Where is all this "Ben's done" talk coming from? YES, the Steelers will need to get their next QB soon, Ben is 38 after all and unless we see something new, MR is not the answer. But there is no reason for some mad scramble to "ease Ben out the door" and start throwing darts at failed FAs and untested rookies.
Ben's passes dropped% is 6.4%, compared to 2018's 3.6%(WRs dropping balls in their hands). Ben has had 17 passes batted down at the LOS or behind this season, 0 in 2018(OL play). Ben's time in the pocket prior to a pass this season is at 2.1secs. It was 2.2secs in 2018, yet he has been hit 44 times this season compared to 37 times in 2018(again OL play).

What tends to make things complicated and controversial is Ben has a year left on his current contract and should be back next year, regardless how fans feel about it. Besides, you've seen the list of 2021 QB FAs. There is a very real need for a youth movement/upgrade on the OL already. AV, Feiler, and Banner are FAs I think. IF Conner and/or JuJu leave via FA a draft pick will most likely go to one or both of those positions as well. There is 2-3 2021 picks already. Adding another QB doesn't help the immediate situation in any way at all.

[Mojouw]

What I am driving at is simple. Of every scenario you have mentioned Ben is still the better option for this season and next.

In 2020 Ben has a better completion% than his career average, but you(posters) say he's been badly inaccurate. He's averaging 1 yard shorter per pass attempt than his career average, yet you(posters) claim he's become a Charlie Checkdown. His QBR is higher than his career average. Where is all this "Ben's done" talk coming from? YES, the Steelers will need to get their next QB soon, Ben is 38 after all and unless we see something new, MR is not the answer. But there is no reason for some mad scramble to "ease Ben out the door" and start throwing darts at failed FAs and untested rookies.
Ben's passes dropped% is 6.4%, compared to 2018's 3.6%(WRs dropping balls in their hands). Ben has had 17 passes batted down at the LOS or behind this season, 0 in 2018(OL play). Ben's time in the pocket prior to a pass this season is at 2.1secs. It was 2.2secs in 2018, yet he has been hit 44 times this season compared to 37 times in 2018(again OL play).

What tends to make things complicated and controversial is Ben has a year left on his current contract and should be back next year, regardless how fans feel about it. Besides, you've seen the list of 2021 QB FAs. There is a very real need for a youth movement/upgrade on the OL already. AV, Feiler, and Banner are FAs I think. IF Conner and/or JuJu leave via FA a draft pick will most likely go to one or both of those positions as well. There is 2-3 2021 picks already. Adding another QB doesn't help the immediate situation in any way at all.

You can trot out all the stats you want. But I know you watched the games. And that showed a QB that wasn't getting it done. Defenses were scoffing at the intermediate and deep passing game. Notice how EVERYTHING on offense worked once Ben hit a few deep balls and forced the Colts safeties and LBs way the hell off?

Every wonder why the drop % skyrocketed? Go back and watch even the highlights of 2020 passes. They are frequently late and behind. Forcing a running receiver to reach low and behind to try and get it. Now combine that with needing 8 yards and getting the ball at 2 yards. Maybe you are gonna try and cheat a bit and get a head start on avoiding the DB that was totally squatting on your route because your QB hadn't completed a pass over 10 yards in a month?

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/ben-roethlisberger/ROE750381/season

Those are not pretty pictures for the most part. Ben Roethlisberger is an average NFL QB at this point in his career. Average NFL QBs do not win SBs. If that is the goal, it is time to move on.

The yards per completion stat is down with Alex Smith, Phillip Rivers, Andy Dalton, and other noted checkdown artists. Averaging under 5 yards per attempt is not good for an NFL QB. No liked it when he did in 2018 and why should it be a great idea now?

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-yards-to-sticks and he is throwing over a yard short of the sticks and hoping his guys can make a play.

This is a HOF QB playing out the string. Unless, as I said elsewhere, there is some "mystery factor" that changes his play over a playoff game or two...I don't think he is worthy of being a 40 million dollar starting QB. So have a retirement ceremony, take your cap medicine, and move on.

Now, he plays like he did against the Colts for the last quarter and half over a playoff run? Then I will change my mind.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I’d have my eye on Oklahoma QB Rattler when he is eligible. He reminds me of Mahomes. That is cause he tries to look like him with his hair and acts like him when they score.

[Born2Steel]

MojoUW, THAT is exactly the offensive gameplan. Get the ball out quickly to the playmakers and let them make plays with the ball. Keep the chains moving. When guys drop the ball in their hands at a rate of 6.4% that creates more 3 and outs than it should.

The WR gets the separation, Ben gets the ball out quickly and on target at a 76.4% rate, but the WR tries to make a play before he has caught the ball and drops the catch at a 6.4% rate. That's not on Ben or coaching or play calling, most of the time. That is on the WR.
I have seen Ben throw the ball, especially to Ebron for some reason, and the ball arrives at the mid-shin level. IMO, that is on Ben. But that has not been the vast majority of the offense's problems and inability to consistently move the chains. IF the receiver would simply catch the ball and fall down right then and there the Steelers rarely see a 3rd down and the offense keeps moving the chains.

You see Ben as the problem, I do not. That seems to be an impasse in this discussion.

[that1guy]

MojoUW, THAT is exactly the offensive gameplan. Get the ball out quickly to the playmakers and let them make plays with the ball. Keep the chains moving. When guys drop the ball in their hands at a rate of 6.4% that creates more 3 and outs than it should.

The WR gets the separation, Ben gets the ball out quickly and on target at a 76.4% rate, but the WR tries to make a play before he has caught the ball and drops the catch at a 6.4% rate. That's not on Ben or coaching or play calling, most of the time. That is on the WR.
I have seen Ben throw the ball, especially to Ebron for some reason, and the ball arrives at the mid-shin level. IMO, that is on Ben. But that has not been the vast majority of the offense's problems and inability to consistently move the chains. IF the receiver would simply catch the ball and fall down right then and there the Steelers rarely see a 3rd down and the offense keeps moving the chains.

You see Ben as the problem, I do not. That seems to be an impasse in this discussion.

This is a case of Agree to Disagree.
The way I look at it is , when I see the tires balding on my Daily driver I start shopping for new tires. The other option is to chance it and hope your existing tires make it through another few months or so. Maybe you save a few bucks and the tires do just fine or maybe one of them blows out while your driving. Point is why wait until the Steelers absolutely have to replace Ben because he cannot go on. We see the writing on the wall and its not telling us anything Positive.

[Mojouw]

MojoUW, THAT is exactly the offensive gameplan. Get the ball out quickly to the playmakers and let them make plays with the ball. Keep the chains moving. When guys drop the ball in their hands at a rate of 6.4% that creates more 3 and outs than it should.

The WR gets the separation, Ben gets the ball out quickly and on target at a 76.4% rate, but the WR tries to make a play before he has caught the ball and drops the catch at a 6.4% rate. That's not on Ben or coaching or play calling, most of the time. That is on the WR.
I have seen Ben throw the ball, especially to Ebron for some reason, and the ball arrives at the mid-shin level. IMO, that is on Ben. But that has not been the vast majority of the offense's problems and inability to consistently move the chains. IF the receiver would simply catch the ball and fall down right then and there the Steelers rarely see a 3rd down and the offense keeps moving the chains.

You see Ben as the problem, I do not. That seems to be an impasse in this discussion.

The offense is designed that way by the fact that they ran out of options. Originally it was to cover up for Bens deteriorating elbow and post surgery it is to cover up for a poor line and a declining QB who can’t get hit.

Watch the throws. Look where they arrive versus where the WR is going and where the DB is. It’s been pretty poor. Watch the deep balls that are way off target for an NFL QB. watch how his lower body never moves on throws anymore.

I think it was awesome how Ben came back and was willing to do anything to win. I truly believe he’s trying to win a SB for his teammates. I also believe he looks washed.

[Born2Steel]

They say stats can be made to show anything you want them to show. Here are Ben's stats. Go game by game, go year by year, whatever. Make them say that Ben has lost what you say he has lost. There really is 17 years worth of Ben on here.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

But you want me to go with YOUR eye test vs MY eye test instead? Like I posted last, impasse. I yield.

[Mojouw]

They say stats can be made to show anything you want them to show. Here are Ben's stats. Go game by game, go year by year, whatever. Make them say that Ben has lost what you say he has lost. There really is 17 years worth of Ben on here.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

But you want me to go with YOUR eye test vs MY eye test instead? Like I posted last, impasse. I yield.

Find a stat 2020 Ben ranks top 5 in. Top 10? I can find one. He is #6 in TDs. He’s average or worse in the other stats. Based on 17 years, that’s a drop-off.

Did you feel like you were watching high level QB play in Rivers last week? I didn’t. But the season stats say the two are similar or Rivers slightly ahead.

[cubanstogie]

A replacement needs to be found ASAP, assuming they’re not sold on Rudolph as the future. None of the free agents any better than Ben at 80%, nor is anyone on Steelers roster. Id say Ben is 80 % of what he was in prime. If he had prime mobility back he could carry team, but D doesn’t have to factor for scrambling or our running game. Its like every play is 3rd and 8. I doubt the top 5 qbs in draft available for us but a guy like Mond or Ridder could be a good gamble. They need to be proactive especially if Ben doesn’t step it up in postseason. No sense paying a guy 30 mill for sentimental reasons when they cant get you over the hump.

[Born2Steel]

Find a stat 2020 Ben ranks top 5 in. Top 10? I can find one. He is #6 in TDs. He’s average or worse in the other stats. Based on 17 years, that’s a drop-off.

Did you feel like you were watching high level QB play in Rivers last week? I didn’t. But the season stats say the two are similar or Rivers slightly ahead.

What/who are you comparing to? The statement that Ben is not what he was is the conversation. I gave you stats that show he still is doing what he has always done. If that means he was never top5 or top10 then ok. I'm talking about the QB play for the Steelers, this offense, and the difference between what you say is the issue and what the issue actually is. You go compare Ben and Rivers, has nothing to do with the conversation. OMG Ben doesn't scramble around like Mahomes, Ben doesn't have the completion% of Brees, whatever that means it has nothing to do with his numbers have remained fairly constant his entire career. I think you got started in the Ben for MVP debate and are still trying to show how much others are more worthy. That is not the debate here. If you think Ben is the cause of all the offensive struggles then cool, you do you.

[teegre]

I’d have my eye on Oklahoma QB Rattler when he is eligible. He reminds me of Mahomes.

He’ll be the #1 overall in 2022.

In the Draft section, I talk about the team with the #2 overall pick this year should trade back, accumulate a bunch of future picks, tank the 2021 season... and use those aforementioned picks to create a great team around Rattler.

- - - Updated - - -


As an AAC football guy, I have watched Ridder for a few seasons. Big arm and good mobility. This year Josh Allen/Carson Wentz. ???
My view, my Memphis Tigers defense has never had a problem containing him outside of this season. But that was mostly the Cincy defense honestly.
Ridder is worth taking a long look at but I haven’t seen anything special from him. Maybe the light came on for him this season.

Please, clarify. If you are comparing him to Josh Allen, I’d take him at 32 without blinking. That said, it seems like you haven’t seen much from him (until this season)... and thus, maybe 64 would be a better spot to take him...???

[Mojouw]

What/who are you comparing to? The statement that Ben is not what he was is the conversation. I gave you stats that show he still is doing what he has always done. If that means he was never top5 or top10 then ok. I'm talking about the QB play for the Steelers, this offense, and the difference between what you say is the issue and what the issue actually is. You go compare Ben and Rivers, has nothing to do with the conversation. OMG Ben doesn't scramble around like Mahomes, Ben doesn't have the completion% of Brees, whatever that means it has nothing to do with his numbers have remained fairly constant his entire career. I think you got started in the Ben for MVP debate and are still trying to show how much others are more worthy. That is not the debate here. If you think Ben is the cause of all the offensive struggles then cool, you do you.

Prior to 2020 Ben annually finished in the top 5-10 in multiple statistical categories.

Sure, he’s only fallen off a tick here and a bit there from his previous stats. But those are enough to knock him to the average or below average tier(s) compared to the other 31 starters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DesertSteel]

Prior to 2020 Ben annually finished in the top 5-10 in multiple statistical categories.

Sure, he’s only fallen off a tick here and a bit there from his previous stats. But those are enough to knock him to the average or below average tier(s) compared to the other 31 starters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He hasn't had his greatest year, but he has thrown for the 2nd most TDs of his career and if he was playing today he'd set his personal record. Further, he's had 8 seasons where he's thrown for less yards and 11 seasons where he's completed a lower percentage of his passes. Aside from his 4 game slump, he's had a great year.

[vasteeler]

He hasn't had his greatest year, but he has thrown for the 2nd most TDs of his career and if he was playing today he'd set his personal record. Further, he's had 8 seasons where he's thrown for less yards and 11 seasons where he's completed a lower percentage of his passes. Aside from his 4 game slump, he's had a great year.

To me it was only a game and a half slump. We would have beaten Washington and Buffalo if not for several drops by our receivers.

[Edman]

Mason Rudolph's progression's today really put the 2021 draft into question.

If the unthinkable happens and the Steelers completely flub to an early exit next Weekend, then it's time to start looking towards the future.

[Six Rings]

Watching highlights of the Texans game got me thinking...

The Texans have surrounded Deshaun Watson with absolutely nothing. Ergo, once again, they are picking in the top 5... with a bunch of QBs available. Also, the Texans are desperate for draft picks. They could unload Watson’s contract, and use that money to sign free agents to surround the (inexpensive) rookie QB. Plus, by trading Watson, they could recoup a bunch of draft picks. As in:

Colbert could trade our ENTIRE draft to the Texans in exchange for Deshaun Watson.

It is a win-win. :nod:

With Watson having so many years left on his deal, Khan could easily push that money down the road (in order to keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu).

Sorry, that's a hard no from me. Watson was the 2nd highest paid player in football for the 2020 season. He's NOT that good, and is part of the reason his team sucks.

Watson also has an injury history. Check his knee.

I'd rather get M. Jones in round 1-2 OR trade our #1,#2,#3, #4 and next years #1 for T Lawerence.

Ben is 40 million on the cap next year, he's not worth that at this stage of his career.

[W&M_Steeler]

To be fair, the Steelers haven't had a "top tier" QB for many years now. Ben even in his prime was among the top of the second-tier "very good" class, but never among the "elite" QB's.

It looked like Ben finally graduated to top tier for the 11-0 stretch, until, well... you know.

Finding a "Top-tier" quarterback is rare and impossible in this day and age. The best the Steelers can do is just find their guy and go for it.

That's some crazy revisionist history. Ben in his prime was no worse than a top-6 QB in a historically great grouping of QBs: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers. Brady and P. Manning are in contention for the best QB of all time, so being a notch below them is no real knock on Ben- almost all HoF QBs are a notch below them. And although Brees has better counting stats than Ben (playing in a dome in a pass always offense works wonders for your stats), I would have taken Ben over him given Ben's physicality and ability to extend the play and improvise. Plus, while no one ever doubted Ben's ability to play in the league, Brees washed out of the Chargers before resurrecting his career in NO. Nevertheless, while I think it's debatable, I can understand ranking Ben below Brees (who does have historically great stats). While I think prime Rodgers was better than prime Ben, I think most would give the edge to prime Ben over prime Rivers. So, at worst, prime Ben ranked behind the three statistically greatest QBs of all time and Aaron Rodgers (a sure-fire HoFer), and tied with Rivers, a likely HoFer.

Also, when comparing stats, remember that Brees, Manning, and Brady have thrown thousands more passes than Ben: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_att_career.htm. Give Ben 2,000 more passing attempts and he probably has 500 TD passes by now. Rodgers is so impressive in part because he has beaten Ben in career TDs with significantly fewer attempts- his TD % is markedly better than the rest of his peers'.

The "very good" tier at this time (mid -00s through -mid 10s) would have included the likes of Joe Flacco in his prime. Remember the eternal "is Flacco elite" debate? There was never any similar debate about Ben. Ben was certainly elite in his prime and essentially no one disputed that at the time. Ben is certainly a Hall of Famer, and I'd argue still in the top half of QBs in the league. All things considered, Ben is probably in the top 25 best QBs who have ever played in the NFL. If the Steelers can get another QB of Roethlisberger's caliber after Ben retires, then they'll be set for another 20 years.

[Born2Steel]

Again, Ben's ranking has nothing to do with his stats today compared to his stats for his career. Equals Ben has not dropped off. Not to the extent of he needs to be shown the door at the very least. That idea is ludicrous!

[W&M_Steeler]

Again, Ben's ranking has nothing to do with his stats today compared to his stats for his career. Equals Ben has not dropped off. Not to the extent of he needs to be shown the door at the very least. That idea is ludicrous!

The idea that Ben should be cut mostly rests on the idea that Ben's arm is shot, that he's fallen off the cliff physically and can't function any more. If that were true, then I could see the case for cutting him- I just don't think it's true. I think the Steelers would be best served by working out an extension with him to help defray the Cap hit, let Ben play out his final 2 or 3 productive seasons while drafting the QB of the future in 2022 or 23.

[Born2Steel]

He’ll be the #1 overall in 2022.

In the Draft section, I talk about the team with the #2 overall pick this year should trade back, accumulate a bunch of future picks, tank the 2021 season... and use those aforementioned picks to create a great team around Rattler.

- - - Updated - - -



Please, clarify. If you are comparing him to Josh Allen, I’d take him at 32 without blinking. That said, it seems like you haven’t seen much from him (until this season)... and thus, maybe 64 would be a better spot to take him...???

Sorry. I only meant his playing style is closer to that of Allen/Wentz. He does have a big arm and has good mobility. He's not fast like Tannehill nor accurate like Rodgers. But I think he has a place in the NFL. Is that as a starting franchise QB? I can't even guess on that one.
My alma mater plays Cincy every year in football, twice last season, so I have seen him a few times. I wouldn't consider him first round talent. (Which means he's probably the next great thing.)

- - - Updated - - -


The idea that Ben should be cut mostly rests on the idea that Ben's arm is shot, that he's fallen off the cliff physically and can't function any more. If that were true, then I could see the case for cutting him- I just don't think it's true. I think the Steelers would be best served by working out an extension with him to help defray the Cap hit, let Ben play out his final 2 or 3 productive seasons while drafting the QB of the future in 2022 or 23.

If you look at the numbers he is putting up this year, look at the numbers he has consistently always put up for 17 seasons, you will see he has not dropped off. Other QBs have come into the league that are doing it differently in that time, some doing it better maybe, so Ben has slid down the media rankings. BUT his production has not waned this season from his norm. Talking QB numbers only. The offense is not slowing down because of Ben.

[W&M_Steeler]

If you look at the numbers he is putting up this year, look at the numbers he has consistently always put up for 17 seasons, you will see he has not dropped off. Other QBs have come into the league that are doing it differently in that time, some doing it better maybe, so Ben has slid down the media rankings. BUT his production has not waned this season from his norm. Talking QB numbers only. The offense is not slowing down because of Ben.

I agree. I think Ben is the least of the team's offensive worries. He's not quite what he was when he was in his prime physically, but he's still a good / very good starting QB (and I think he's probably better in the mental aspect of the game than he used to be). Calls to cut him based on the last few games are nothing more than knee-jerk reactions based on the inexplicable offensive miasma of the past few weeks, which I think has multiple causes (poor Oline play, terrible running game featuring untalented running backs (except Conner, who missed most of those games during the stretch of putrid O), WRs dropping too many passes, questionable offensive coaching and philosophy). Ben still has a few more good years left.

[W&M_Steeler]

That's some crazy revisionist history. Ben in his prime was no worse than a top-6 QB in a historically great grouping of QBs: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers. Brady and P. Manning are in contention for the best QB of all time, so being a notch below them is no real knock on Ben- almost all HoF QBs are a notch below them. And although Brees has better counting stats than Ben (playing in a dome in a pass always offense works wonders for your stats), I would have taken Ben over him given Ben's physicality and ability to extend the play and improvise. Plus, while no one ever doubted Ben's ability to play in the league, Brees washed out of the Chargers before resurrecting his career in NO. Nevertheless, while I think it's debatable, I can understand ranking Ben below Brees (who does have historically great stats). While I think prime Rodgers was better than prime Ben, I think most would give the edge to prime Ben over prime Rivers. So, at worst, prime Ben ranked behind the three statistically greatest QBs of all time and Aaron Rodgers (a sure-fire HoFer), and tied with Rivers, a likely HoFer.

Also, when comparing stats, remember that Brees, Manning, and Brady have thrown thousands more passes than Ben: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_att_career.htm. Give Ben 2,000 more passing attempts and he probably has 500 TD passes by now. Rodgers is so impressive in part because he has beaten Ben in career TDs with significantly fewer attempts- his TD % is markedly better than the rest of his peers'.

The "very good" tier at this time (mid -00s through -mid 10s) would have included the likes of Joe Flacco in his prime. Remember the eternal "is Flacco elite" debate? There was never any similar debate about Ben. Ben was certainly elite in his prime and essentially no one disputed that at the time. Ben is certainly a Hall of Famer, and I'd argue still in the top half of QBs in the league. All things considered, Ben is probably in the top 25 best QBs who have ever played in the NFL. If the Steelers can get another QB of Roethlisberger's caliber after Ben retires, then they'll be set for another 20 years.

Sorry to quote myself, but I was thinking about this more and thought it would be interesting to take a survey of the best QBs in their primes over the past 25 seasons (i.e. from the 1996-97 season until now). Excluding QBs who were in the last few years of their career during this period (e.g. Marino, Elway) and those who are just starting now but look great (e.g. Mahomes), and the list is the following:

Favre, McNair, Warner, P. Manning, Brady, Brees, E. Manning, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Ryan, and Stafford. Twenty-Five years is a long time in professional sports, so to be included in a list of the 12 best QBs to have their careers over that span is impressive enough and pretty much shows that a QB is historically elite. For the sake of argument, you might include Aikman and Young on the list, as they arguably had prime years left in the mid-late 1990s (Young in particular is a real stretch for this group- he is more known as a 1990s QB rather than for his play in the 1980s so I included him even though his best years were in the early 1990s and he probably would better fit in the 1970-1995 list discussed below), and you might include Russell Wilson as well (although the jury's still out and he still has a long stretch of prime career remaining). I'd exclude Newton from the list, as his prime was too short.

For a comparison's sake to show how long we're talking about here, the previous 25-season span would cover 1970-1995 and include QBs like Bradshaw and Staubach as well as Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly, etc.- in other words, 25 years is enough time for many great QBs to rise and play full careers in the league.

So Ben is clearly in the top 15 of the best QBs of the past 25 years. Out of the group I identified above, I'd only rank Favre, P. Manning, Brady, and Rodgers as clearly above him. I'd rank McNair, Warner, E. Manning, Ryan, and Stafford as clearly below Ben. That leaves Ben to compete with Brees, Rivers, and possibly Russell Wilson, Troy Aikman, and Steve Young for the title of 5th best QB of the past 25 years. So, at worst, Ben is the 10th best QB of the past 25 years even when really stretching the definition to pull into the argument two Hall of Famers like Aikman and Young as well as a guy who I am including mostly on potential with many years ahead needed to prove himself (Wilson).

Think of all of the QBs who have played out the bulk of their careers over the past 25 years. The number is in the hundreds at least. Out of that group, I'd put Ben no worse than 6th, maybe 7th. If that's not elite in your eyes, then I think you have a skewed definition of what constitutes "Elite." I can understand debating how much Ben has left in the tank and how the Steelers should proceed. I cannot understand how any Steelers fan could denigrate Ben's historical performance. I used to think of Ben as a better version of Steve McNair; I now see him as the 2000s version of John Elway. We'll be lucky to get another QB anywhere close to as good as Ben any time soon- we just have to hope the Steelers don't have the post-Elway Broncos' luck with QBs.

[DesertSteel]

Look at Justin Herbert. He really has the chance to be just as good as Mahomes. Kid is a beast with a rocket arm.

[Mojouw]

Rumblings that Miami might be moving off of Tua...anyone watch the "Phins this year and have take on why Tua was so bad?

Anyways...there are potentially a great # of current QBs that are going to be moving around this off-season. Wonder if the Steelers try and get in on a Winston style "rehab" signing or trade? I suspect that they won't prioritize the resources and will focus on building the best overall roster for another 2021 play-off run. But it is kinda fun to think on the hypothetical options.

[DesertSteel]

Rumblings that Miami might be moving off of Tua...anyone watch the "Phins this year and have take on why Tua was so bad?

Anyways...there are potentially a great # of current QBs that are going to be moving around this off-season. Wonder if the Steelers try and get in on a Winston style "rehab" signing or trade? I suspect that they won't prioritize the resources and will focus on building the best overall roster for another 2021 play-off run. But it is kinda fun to think on the hypothetical options.
I don't think Tua was bad. I didn't see any from yesterday, but the 5-6 times I saw him, he just played it safe like a game manager. Not many dynamic plays. After 2-3 starts he made the statement that "the NFL isn't as hard as he thought it would be" and it was all downhill from there. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a great year 2.

[dislocatedday]

I don't think Tua was bad. I didn't see any from yesterday, but the 5-6 times I saw him, he just played it safe like a game manager. Not many dynamic plays. After 2-3 starts he made the statement that "the NFL isn't as hard as he thought it would be" and it was all downhill from there. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a great year 2.

That is the same things I saw DesertSteel in regards to Tua. He is playing like a guy who is trying at all costs to avoid big mistakes and turnovers, but the offense then becomes very stagnant and does not really make any progress.

It's the complete opposite right now compared to Justin Herbert, a rookie QB who was taking shots all over the field this year.

[dislocatedday]

Rumblings that Miami might be moving off of Tua...anyone watch the "Phins this year and have take on why Tua was so bad?

Anyways...there are potentially a great # of current QBs that are going to be moving around this off-season. Wonder if the Steelers try and get in on a Winston style "rehab" signing or trade? I suspect that they won't prioritize the resources and will focus on building the best overall roster for another 2021 play-off run. But it is kinda fun to think on the hypothetical options.

I've read some of those same rumblings, which just further illustrates how hard it is to get a "Franchise" QB. Tua may become that guy, but it sounds so odd that there are already doubts about him after 1 year when prior to his hip injury he was the presumed #1 overall pick who would alter the fate of a franchise. I kept hearing the phrase "Tank for Tua" back in the 2019 season.

Every year there is this assumption that any QB drafted in the 1st round is the "franchise QB", but I think history shows that maybe 1 in 3 QBs drafted in the first round become long-term, viable starters for the franchise that drafted them. It's rare when you get a year like the 2004 season where Ben, Rivers, and Eli are all drafted and all do become franchise QBs for those teams (..and each a likely HOFer...).

[W&M_Steeler]

I've read some of those same rumblings, which just further illustrates how hard it is to get a "Franchise" QB. Tua may become that guy, but it sounds so odd that there are already doubts about him after 1 year when prior to his hip injury he was the presumed #1 overall pick who would alter the fate of a franchise. I kept hearing the phrase "Tank for Tua" back in the 2019 season.

Every year there is this assumption that any QB drafted in the 1st round is the "franchise QB", but I think history shows that maybe 1 in 3 QBs drafted in the first round become long-term, viable starters for the franchise that drafted them. It's rare when you get a year like the 2004 season where Ben, Rivers, and Eli are all drafted and all do become franchise QBs for those teams (..and each a likely HOFer...).

Suck for Luck also didn't turn out so great in the end - talent is only valuable if the player wants to play. Also, even the 2004 draft wasn't entirely successful- J.P. Losman was also a 1st round pick that year.

[Fire Goodell]

Suck for Luck also didn't turn out so great in the end - talent is only valuable if the player wants to play. Also, even the 2004 draft wasn't entirely successful- J.P. Losman was also a 1st round pick that year.

I used to always call him JP Loseman :chuckle:

[86WARD]

Given the option:

Hurts or Tua?

[Fire Goodell]

I'd let Rudolph try to compete, if he can keep nailing those long passes, it wouldn't be ridiculous to say he's possible starter material.

His knock on him last year was he was too dink & dunk and wasn't a threat to hurt you deep. This last game showed very improved accuracy on those long throws.

[cubanstogie]

Given the option:

Hurts or Tua?
Neither are cant miss prospects, but Id go with Hurts. More durable and I think more room to grow. He looks really poised and comfortable, especially running rpo’s. He’s gradually improved in last 3 years.

[86WARD]

Neither are cant miss prospects, but Id go with Hurts. More durable and I think more room to grow. He looks really poised and comfortable, especially running rpo’s. He’s gradually improved in last 3 years.

I dont know. Sometimes Tua looks more Like a college player to me.

[teegre]

@Six Rings
I can see disagreeing about paying Watson and/or giving up too much to get him. But, saying he’s not good... :huh: The dude led the NFL in passing yards, threw 36 TDs (and only 7 INTs), completed 70% of his passes, and has the second-highest passer rating in the NFL.

@Born to Steel
Thank you for the clarification.

@W&M Steeler
Luck was surrounded by nothing. His O-line got him nearly killed (literally... he almost died). Luck retired due to bring far too injured to continue. As in: he did not “quit” on his team.

[DesertSteel]

@Six Rings
I can see disagreeing about paying Watson and/or giving up too much to get him. But, saying he’s not good... :huh: The dude led the NFL in passing yards, threw 36 TDs (and only 7 INTs), completed 70% of his passes, and has the second-highest passer rating in the NFL.

Yeah I was scratching my head on his comments too!

[W&M_Steeler]

@W&M Steeler
Luck was surrounded by nothing. His O-line got him nearly killed (literally... he almost died). Luck retired due to bring far too injured to continue. As in: he did not “quit” on his team.

He didn't say he retired because he couldn't physically play anymore; rather, he said he retired because he was tired of rehabbing and wasn't having fun anymore. He played through pain in 2016 and didn't want to do it again: https://www-cbssports-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/why-did-andrew-luck-retire-qb-explains-shocking-decision-i-havent-been-able-to-live-the-life-i-want-to-live/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16098219214592&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbssports.com%2Fnfl%2Fn ews%2Fwhy-did-andrew-luck-retire-qb-explains-shocking-decision-i-havent-been-able-to-live-the-life-i-want-to-live%2F

If Ben had that attitude he probably would have retired 10 years ago.

The NFL is a rough job, and Luck didn't want to do it anymore. I am not calling him a "quitter", but I haven't seen anything suggesting that Luck faced a situation like Shazier in which his injuries made it impossible for Luck to keep playing. Compared to people like Alex Smith, Luck's decision to retire at 29 suggests that Luck lacked the single-minded obsession for football greatness that successful NFL franchise QBs have. I am not judging him for it- few people have that mindset- but I am saying that his mentality prevented him from turning out to be the generational great that people thought he would be. If Luck did in fact suffer a career-ending injury like Shazier, then I would feel differently about Luck, but I haven't seen anything saying that he did.

[fansince'76]

Every year there is this assumption that any QB drafted in the 1st round is the "franchise QB", but I think history shows that maybe 1 in 3 QBs drafted in the first round become long-term, viable starters for the franchise that drafted them. It's rare when you get a year like the 2004 season where Ben, Rivers, and Eli are all drafted and all do become franchise QBs for those teams (..and each a likely HOFer...).

Bingo. The only QB class comparable to the 2004 class in fairly recent times was the class of 1983 (which was even more celebrated than '04), and even that one had its duds (Todd Blackledge and Tony Eason). Ken O'Brien wasn't a bad QB, but he never lived up to being a first round pick either. Then there were Jim Kelly, John Elway and Dan Marino. So even the most celebrated QB class in NFL history only really had a 50% success rate.

If your team gets an actual bona fide franchise QB in the draft, you can consider yourself lucky.

One positive development in recent years was the establishment of the rookie salary cap. It used to be that missing on a so-called "can't miss blue chip QB prospect" wreaked havoc on a team's salary cap for years. And for a while there, the guaranteed money being thrown at the next "Big Thing" at QB before they ever took a snap in the NFL was getting more ridiculous every year. Thankfully, that doesn't happen anymore.

[teegre]

He didn't say he retired because he couldn't physically play anymore; rather, he said he retired because he was tired of rehabbing and wasn't having fun anymore. He played through pain in 2016 and didn't want to do it again: https://www-cbssports-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/why-did-andrew-luck-retire-qb-explains-shocking-decision-i-havent-been-able-to-live-the-life-i-want-to-live/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHKAFQArABIA%3D%3D#aoh=16098219214592&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbssports.com%2Fnfl%2Fn ews%2Fwhy-did-andrew-luck-retire-qb-explains-shocking-decision-i-havent-been-able-to-live-the-life-i-want-to-live%2F

If Ben had that attitude he probably would have retired 10 years ago.

The NFL is a rough job, and Luck didn't want to do it anymore. I am not calling him a "quitter", but I haven't seen anything suggesting that Luck faced a situation like Shazier in which his injuries made it impossible for Luck to keep playing. Compared to people like Alex Smith, Luck's decision to retire at 29 suggests that Luck lacked the single-minded obsession for football greatness that successful NFL franchise QBs have. I am not judging him for it- few people have that mindset- but I am saying that his mentality prevented him from turning out to be the generational great that people thought he would be. If Luck did in fact suffer a career-ending injury like Shazier, then I would feel differently about Luck, but I haven't seen anything saying that he did.

That is a very well-thought-out response. That said, I disagree with some of your points.

Luck was in pain for years. Ben has had some nagging injuries, but nothing like the types of injuries that Luck had to endure. No, his injuries weren't as bad as Ryan Shazier nor Alex Smith, but it was more than your typical torn ACL.

Luck might have been able to have the mental fortitude to push through the physical pain, except his ownership seemingly wasn’t committed to helping him out. Their O-line was awful (even worse than our abysmal 2008 O-line), for half of a decade; the few draft picks the Colts spent on O-linemen turned out to be lemons. The ownership refused to pay their one good O-lineman (Anthony Castanzo) and didn’t bring in any others. Similarly, Donte Mont-crete was the best receiver they added to his arsenal.

As far as being committed to the game, Luck almost lived in the film room. Every week, he watched every second of an opponent’s game tape from the years prior (looking for tendencies). There haven’t been many QBs as committed to the mental side/to preparation as Luck was.

Luck retired right before they drafted a stud LG, a rock-solid RT, a couple of very good RBs. Maybe if the Colts had added those types of players a few years earlier, Luck might have felt that they were as committed to winning as he was.

[Six Rings]

To his credit he's played for a terrible team. I think on a decent team he could be alright. Though he's the type of QB that probably needs a running game to succeed.

Terrible teams can inflate #'s as he's passing all the time from behind in garbage time.

Waton's cap number in 2022 is $40,400,000.00! Hard pass. Plus he has been 1-2 in the playoffs as has had 2 knee surgeries, both of which were grade 3 injuries. For those wondering, a grade 3 three happens when the ACL is completely torn off and can't provide any stability to the knee.

Houston is screwed. They can't cut Watson in 2021. Well they can and take a 51,200,000.00 cap hit, which would hurt more than a grade 3 ACL.

Teegre is a good poster, but after reading this post, he might change his mind.

See below.

https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/deshaun-watson/7744

[W&M_Steeler]

That is a very well-thought-out response. That said, I disagree with some of your points.

Luck was in pain for years. Ben has had some nagging injuries, but nothing like the types of injuries that Luck had to endure. No, his injuries weren't as bad as Ryan Shazier nor Alex Smith, but it was more than your typical torn ACL.

Luck might have been able to have the mental fortitude to push through the physical pain, except his ownership seemingly wasn’t committed to helping him out. Their O-line was awful (even worse than our abysmal 2008 O-line), for half of a decade; the few draft picks the Colts spent on O-linemen turned out to be lemons. The ownership refused to pay their one good O-lineman (Anthony Castanzo) and didn’t bring in any others. Similarly, Donte Mont-crete was the best receiver they added to his arsenal.

As far as being committed to the game, Luck almost lived in the film room. Every week, he watched every second of an opponent’s game tape from the years prior (looking for tendencies). There haven’t been many QBs as committed to the mental side/to preparation as Luck was.

Luck retired right before they drafted a stud LG, a rock-solid RT, a couple of very good RBs. Maybe if the Colts had added those types of players a few years earlier, Luck might have felt that they were as committed to winning as he was.

The Colts allowed Luck to get severely beaten up, no doubt. But the Colts have improved significantly over the past few years. This year they were good enough to be led into the playoffs by a 39 year old Phil Rivers. Luck has now had two years off to recover. He is only 31. If he wanted to come back and play next year, he could. What's stopping him other than a lack of desire to play any further?

Alex Smith came back after two years of rehab, and he plays for a much worse franchise overall. The Smith comparison is interesting to me, because, like Luck, Smith is also very intelligent and financially set for life. He doesn't have to play football anymore- he could go do other things if he wanted to do so. Yet he fought for two years to come back and play for Dan Synder. Luck has chosen not to do so even though he has a higher ceiling than Smith and a better shot at a Super Bowl. Unless Luck truly has suffered a career-ending injury that he doesn't want to disclose, the only explanation for his actions that I can come up with is that football isn't as much of a priority for him.

EDIT: This recent article reviewing whether Luck might return doesn't mention anything about any injuries that would preclude him from returning. Rather, the consensus seems to be that Luck is happy in retirement and doesn't want to come back: https://www.nfl.com/news/colts-owner-jim-irsay-on-andrew-luck-return-i-think-that-door-s-closed

[Fire Goodell]

Heck if I was 31 and had 50 mil I'd probably retire too lol

[Mojouw]

Terrible teams can inflate #'s as he's passing all the time from behind in garbage time.

Waton's cap number in 2022 is $40,400,000.00! Hard pass. Plus he has been 1-2 in the playoffs as has had 2 knee surgeries, both of which were grade 3 injuries. For those wondering, a grade 3 three happens when the ACL is completely torn off and can't provide any stability to the knee.

Houston is screwed. They can't cut Watson in 2021. Well they can and take a 51,200,000.00 cap hit, which would hurt more than a grade 3 ACL.

Teegre is a good poster, but after reading this post, he might change his mind.

See below.

https://sportsinjurypredictor.com/player/deshaun-watson/7744

Watson's cap #'s are right in line with the other QBs in his age cohort.

Using Average Annual Value #'s because I am too lazy to look it up year by year:

Mahomes (24) @ $45 million.
Goff (24) @ $33 million
Wentz (26) @ $32 million

Dak will almost certainly get between $35 AND $40 million+ when he signs a long-term deal.

After the 2022 season and entering Watson's age 27 season in 2023...the Texans can cut him at any point due to injury or ineffectiveness. Signing a multi-year deal with your entire offense where you really only have two uncuttable years in a QB's mid twenties? Yeah...I'll take that every time.

Would you rather pay Watson $40 million or Roethlisberger $41 million?

- - - Updated - - -

If I was Andrew Luck, I wouldn't have rehabbed (again) to come back and play for an organization that was where the Colts were at when he walked away. I also would have retired if I was Alex Smith. Take the money and run!

[W&M_Steeler]

Heck if I was 31 and had 50 mil I'd probably retire too lol

So would I. But NFL franchise QBs don't have that mentality- they're driven in ways normal people don't understand. Why are Brady or Brees or Rivers or Ben or Rodgers or Alex Smith (lesser talent but has that mindset) still playing? They're financially set for multiple lifetimes.

My point is that if you draft a guy who doesn't have that mentality, you're going to end up disappointed even if the guy you drafted is mega talented (like Luck).

[W&M_Steeler]

Would you rather pay Watson $40 million or Roethlisberger $41 million?


I'd rather keep the draft picks and try to work an extension with Ben to spread that $40 million out over a few years. I am not a cap guru, but as I understand it the Steelers will simply be unable to afford a $40 million QB next year no matter who it is without deep cuts. I think Ben is still good enough to give the Steelers a chance to win and invested enough in the franchise to take a discount to keep the team competitive. Would Watson feel the same? Keep Ben, maybe use a draft pick to trade for an O-line upgrade, and draft a stud RB next year.

[Six Rings]

Watson's cap #'s are right in line with the other QBs in his age cohort.

Using Average Annual Value #'s because I am too lazy to look it up year by year:

Mahomes (24) @ $45 million.
Goff (24) @ $33 million
Wentz (26) @ $32 million

Dak will almost certainly get between $35 AND $40 million+ when he signs a long-term deal.

After the 2022 season and entering Watson's age 27 season in 2023...the Texans can cut him at any point due to injury or ineffectiveness. Signing a multi-year deal with your entire offense where you really only have two uncuttable years in a QB's mid twenties? Yeah...I'll take that every time.

Would you rather pay Watson $40 million or Roethlisberger $41 million?

- - - Updated - - -

If I was Andrew Luck, I wouldn't have rehabbed (again) to come back and play for an organization that was where the Colts were at when he walked away. I also would have retired if I was Alex Smith. Take the money and run!

No, Watson was the 2nd highest paid QB this year, and costs a ton in 2022. ( 40.4 Million ) He's also has a scary injury history, and has proven little in the playoffs. Re-read my post. Mahomes is worth the money. Wentz isn't and will be cut. You can get him for NFL Staring min QB past his first contract for say for 20 million. Pass on Wentz I say.

Dak has the Cowboys by the b@lls. And he's not worth it IMO.

Ben is tricky. He's older but still good and has done so much for this team. He's not worth 42 million. Maybe 35 million. Give us a discount Ben! No long terms deals for Ben as he's retiring soon, and NO WAY taking Watson's contract and trading for him. The guy has zero chance of being cut, outside of a major off the field issue. Like I said before, many of his passing yards happened because he was down on a 4-12 team big time the D allowed yards for time to pass off the clock.

- - - Updated - - -


So would I. But NFL franchise QBs don't have that mentality- they're driven in ways normal people don't understand. Why are Brady or Brees or Rivers or Ben or Rodgers or Alex Smith (lesser talent but has that mindset) still playing? They're financially set for multiple lifetimes.

My point is that if you draft a guy who doesn't have that mentality, you're going to end up disappointed even if the guy you drafted is mega talented (like Luck).


W&M,

I like Mac Jones a lot. Do you think he will be there in round 2 for us, and is he worth our 1st round pick? Rudy didn't play bad either. He looks to have improved a big from last year.

[Mojouw]

I'd rather keep the draft picks and try to work an extension with Ben to spread that $40 million out over a few years. I am not a cap guru, but as I understand it the Steelers will simply be unable to afford a $40 million QB next year no matter who it is without deep cuts. I think Ben is still good enough to give the Steelers a chance to win and invested enough in the franchise to take a discount to keep the team competitive. Would Watson feel the same? Keep Ben, maybe use a draft pick to trade for an O-line upgrade, and draft a stud RB next year.

Sure, that is a great and workable plan. But to argue that Watson has an unreasonable cap # is not in line with the reality of what a 24 year old franchise QB costs. Whether he would or wouldn't be the right QB for Pittsburgh is a bit of a different question...but his cap # is not really the issue. Also, Watson's contract could be restructured to lower that number.

For Ben's contract situation see: https://steelersdepot.com/2020/08/looking-ahead-at-2021-ben-roethlisberger-contract-cap-cutting-scenarios/ with the important bit being "...keep in mind that the lowest that Roethlisberger’s cap charge can be in 2021 is $23.325 and that’s with him going the full charity route..."

[W&M_Steeler]

W&M,

I like Mac Jones a lot. Do you think he will be there in round 2 for us, and is he worth our 1st round pick? Rudy didn't play bad either. He looks to have improved a big from last year.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about college football to say. I think that if a QB the Steelers love falls to them in the 1st, then it would make sense for them to take him. But I would rather see them take an impact player at another position in the late 1st (RB or TE) than reach on a QB. The story that the Steelers had a 1st round grade on Mason Rudolph makes me a little nervous about the Steelers QB scouting chops, however.

[Mojouw]

No, Watson was the 2nd highest paid QB this year, and costs a ton in 2022. ( 40.4 Million ) He's also has a scary injury history, and has proven little in the playoffs. Re-read my post. Mahomes is worth the money. Wentz isn't and will be cut. You can get him for NFL Staring min QB past his first contract for say for 20 million. Pass on Wentz I say.

Dak has the Cowboys by the b@lls. And he's not worth it IMO.

Ben is tricky. He's older but still good and has done so much for this team. He's not worth 42 million. Maybe 35 million. Give us a discount Ben! No long terms deals for Ben as he's retiring soon, and NO WAY taking Watson's contract and trading for him. The guy has zero chance of being cut, outside of a major off the field issue. Like I said before, many of his passing yards happened because he was down on a 4-12 team big time the D allowed yards for time to pass off the clock.

- - - Updated - - -




W&M,

I like Mac Jones a lot. Do you think he will be there in round 2 for us, and is he worth our 1st round pick? Rudy didn't play bad either. He looks to have improved a big from last year.

I never said Watson wasn't the #2 paid QB. I never said his cap charge in 2022 wasn't $40 million or whatever. I used Average Annual Value #'s to smooth out the various QB's funny contract math. You can see the table here: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/ and you can see the specifics of Watson's deal here: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/deshaun-watson-21753/

Further, you can look at every QB contract signed since 2018: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/ and you can see that Watson's AAV # is right in line with the QB "market" across the NFL. As long as the cap increases annually (an assumption every NFL team makes and depends on) his contract is completely reasonable.

If you don't like Watson as a player or an injury risk, fine. But his contract #'s are exactly in line with what an extension for a franchise starter is/was when he signed it. Both he and the Texans view him as exactly that.

Wentz, like Watson, is already past his first contract, that is why he costs $30 some odd million per year. He signed one year prior to Watson and his AAV # reflects one less year of NFL contract and cap inflation.

Really, I don't know why I am arguing this point in so much detail because it is totally irrelevant.

[Fire Goodell]

So would I. But NFL franchise QBs don't have that mentality- they're driven in ways normal people don't understand. Why are Brady or Brees or Rivers or Ben or Rodgers or Alex Smith (lesser talent but has that mindset) still playing? They're financially set for multiple lifetimes.

My point is that if you draft a guy who doesn't have that mentality, you're going to end up disappointed even if the guy you drafted is mega talented (like Luck).

Yeah I was half joking, though players competing at that high level are usually motivated to be the best at the game, that drive is a good part of what got them there in the first place. On rare occasions though, or especially after a bad injury, you have some players wonder if putting their bodies through that hell is worth it, especially if they already made a boatload of money.

As a fan though, i was disappointed when he chose to retire, he was on his way to having a potential hall of fame career. Though as a person I can't fault him for protecting his body and doing what's good for his own future.

[teegre]

The Colts allowed Luck to get severely beaten up, no doubt. But the Colts have improved significantly over the past few years. This year they were good enough to be led into the playoffs by a 39 year old Phil Rivers. Luck has now had two years off to recover. He is only 31. If he wanted to come back and play next year, he could. What's stopping him other than a lack of desire to play any further?

Alex Smith came back after two years of rehab, and he plays for a much worse franchise overall. The Smith comparison is interesting to me, because, like Luck, Smith is also very intelligent and financially set for life. He doesn't have to play football anymore- he could go do other things if he wanted to do so. Yet he fought for two years to come back and play for Dan Synder. Luck has chosen not to do so even though he has a higher ceiling than Smith and a better shot at a Super Bowl. Unless Luck truly has suffered a career-ending injury that he doesn't want to disclose, the only explanation for his actions that I can come up with is that football isn't as much of a priority for him.

EDIT: This recent article reviewing whether Luck might return doesn't mention anything about any injuries that would preclude him from returning. Rather, the consensus seems to be that Luck is happy in retirement and doesn't want to come back: https://www.nfl.com/news/colts-owner-jim-irsay-on-andrew-luck-return-i-think-that-door-s-closed

You have a very interesting view of the Luck situation. I can honestly say that I had never once looked at it from your perspective. To me, it’s always been about the Colts ruining Luck’s psyche to the point that football was no longer fun for him... much like how the Lions basically made football no longer fun for Barry Sanders.

Peyton a Manning used to have a camp run by himself and former NFL quarterbacks... and a high school phenom maned Andrew Luck. I mention this, because Luck lived & breathed football for the majority of his life. Once in the NFL, there wasn’t a QB more committed to the game. Yet, after a few years of serious injuries AND a front office seemingly not wanting to help him, he gave up on his passion.

NOTE: Yes, he is probably completely rehabbed by now. Even when he retired, the injuries themselves weren’t the sole reason he retired; it was the year upon year of dealing with injuries (and a lackluster front office) that wore down his psyche.

As far as him returning to football, that is indeed an interesting point. I’m assuming that the Colts still own his rights... and, they certainly could use a QB. I’m not sure what kind of cap problems it would cause for him to retire, and then return a few years later. It’s never been done while a player was under contract (or, at least, not on that level). Interesting.

[Six Rings]

I never said Watson wasn't the #2 paid QB. I never said his cap charge in 2022 wasn't $40 million or whatever. I used Average Annual Value #'s to smooth out the various QB's funny contract math. You can see the table here: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/ and you can see the specifics of Watson's deal here: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/deshaun-watson-21753/

Further, you can look at every QB contract signed since 2018: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/quarterback/limit-100/ and you can see that Watson's AAV # is right in line with the QB "market" across the NFL. As long as the cap increases annually (an assumption every NFL team makes and depends on) his contract is completely reasonable.

If you don't like Watson as a player or an injury risk, fine. But his contract #'s are exactly in line with what an extension for a franchise starter is/was when he signed it. Both he and the Texans view him as exactly that.

Wentz, like Watson, is already past his first contract, that is why he costs $30 some odd million per year. He signed one year prior to Watson and his AAV # reflects one less year of NFL contract and cap inflation.

Really, I don't know why I am arguing this point in so much detail because it is totally irrelevant.


Let's just say I think Watson is overpaid and an injury risk. He was the 2nd highest paid QB last year on a 4-12 team, and did not elevate them. He's 1-2 in the playoffs. As I said before he was down so often, then had to pass and the other team let them get yards in exchange to drain the clock.


If you think his cap number of 40.4 million in 2022 is " Average " by a QB standard, I've got a few bridges I'd like to sell you in Pittsburgh. It's high. And by the way the cap is likely going down, not up due to lack of the live gate and declining TV ratings. The Steelers will feel that pinch. It deserves its own thread.


Naming losers line Wentz doesn't help. He'll sign wherever he can start and roughly half of what Watson is making...if he's lucky. Teams do not want to overpay veteran QB's who failed to becoming a top 8 guy ( Say pro bowl or winner in the playoffs ) big bucks.


If Watson was on his first contract, and didn't have two grade 3 ACL injures to his knee, yeah I'd be interested for the right trade. He's not.

[Six Rings]

The Colts allowed Luck to get severely beaten up, no doubt. But the Colts have improved significantly over the past few years. This year they were good enough to be led into the playoffs by a 39 year old Phil Rivers. Luck has now had two years off to recover. He is only 31. If he wanted to come back and play next year, he could. What's stopping him other than a lack of desire to play any further?

Alex Smith came back after two years of rehab, and he plays for a much worse franchise overall. The Smith comparison is interesting to me, because, like Luck, Smith is also very intelligent and financially set for life. He doesn't have to play football anymore- he could go do other things if he wanted to do so. Yet he fought for two years to come back and play for Dan Synder. Luck has chosen not to do so even though he has a higher ceiling than Smith and a better shot at a Super Bowl. Unless Luck truly has suffered a career-ending injury that he doesn't want to disclose, the only explanation for his actions that I can come up with is that football isn't as much of a priority for him.

EDIT: This recent article reviewing whether Luck might return doesn't mention anything about any injuries that would preclude him from returning. Rather, the consensus seems to be that Luck is happy in retirement and doesn't want to come back: https://www.nfl.com/news/colts-owner-jim-irsay-on-andrew-luck-return-i-think-that-door-s-closed

On Luck, perhaps the owner of the Clots ( He's an odd ball ) factored in, but above and beyond all reasons, he just wasn't Spartan enough. His body was breaking down. He likely knew he would never be a Super Bowl winning QB or a Hall of Fame QB. He had his money. If he was coming into his second contract he'd be playing football!

So for him, I agree football wasn't a priority, and he retired young. Some guys do that.

[W&M_Steeler]

You have a very interesting view of the Luck situation. I can honestly say that I had never once looked at it from your perspective. To me, it’s always been about the Colts ruining Luck’s psyche to the point that football was no longer fun for him... much like how the Lions basically made football no longer fun for Barry Sanders.

Peyton a Manning used to have a camp run by himself and former NFL quarterbacks... and a high school phenom maned Andrew Luck. I mention this, because Luck lived & breathed football for the majority of his life. Once in the NFL, there wasn’t a QB more committed to the game. Yet, after a few years of serious injuries AND a front office seemingly not wanting to help him, he gave up on his passion.

NOTE: Yes, he is probably completely rehabbed by now. Even when he retired, the injuries themselves weren’t the sole reason he retired; it was the year upon year of dealing with injuries (and a lackluster front office) that wore down his psyche.

As far as him returning to football, that is indeed an interesting point. I’m assuming that the Colts still own his rights... and, they certainly could use a QB. I’m not sure what kind of cap problems it would cause for him to retire, and then return a few years later. It’s never been done while a player was under contract (or, at least, not on that level). Interesting.

I'm sure that the injuries wore down Luck's pysche. What I am saying it that the fact that they could wear down his psyche is an indication that Luck didn't have the psyche needed to be a successful NFL franchise QB for the long term, and it's why, in my opinion, he did not live up to his 1st overall spot and the "Suck for Luck" hype. He was lacking a tool- absolute mental toughness- that a franchise QB needs to succeed in the long term.

You bring up the Lions, and I think that brings up another interesting comparison- Matthew Stafford, who has played year in and year out for a terrible franchise, suffering all sorts of injuries, yet he's out there in Week 17 this year playing a meaningless game with broken ribs. When asked about it, Stafford said "That's part of what the offseason is, right? But we're not there yet. Part of the offseason is letting your body heal and feeling better."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30640437/detroit-lions-qb-matthew-stafford-start-injuries

What keeps Stafford playing through injuries at 32 but leads to Luck retiring at 29? Were the Colts really so much more pathetic than the Lions that Luck was driven away but Stafford wasn't? I am not calling Luck a wuss- I am sure he is much tougher than me- but I am saying that he seems to be lacking a certain toughness compared to his peers. While I don't think Luck was a bust, I think it's fair to call him a disappointment. His mentality prevented him from being the surefire HoF franchise QB we all thought he would be (and that his physical tools and intellect indicated he would be).

And to bring this discussion back into line with the topic, Stafford is an interesting QB option. He's a FA (though indications are that he's going to stay with the Lions). If Ben decides to retire after this season, I think Stafford would be worth considering.

[teegre]

I'm sure that the injuries wore down Luck's pysche. What I am saying it that the fact that they could wear down his psyche is an indication that Luck didn't have the psyche to be a franchise QB, and it's why, in my opinion, he did not live up to his 1st overall spot and the "Suck for Luck" hype. He was lacking a tool- absolute mental toughness- that a franchise QB needs.

You bring up the Lions, and I think that brings up another interesting comparison- Matthew Stafford, who has played year in and year out for a terrible franchise, suffering all sorts of injuries, yet he's out there in Week 17 this year playing a meaningless game with broken ribs. When asked about it, Stafford said "That's part of what the offseason is, right? But we're not there yet. Part of the offseason is letting your body heal and feeling better."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30640437/detroit-lions-qb-matthew-stafford-start-injuries

What keeps Stafford playing but leads to Luck retiring at 29? Were the Colts really so much more pathetic than the Lions that Luck was driven away but Stafford wasn't? I am not calling Luck a wuss- I am sure he is much tougher than me- but I am saying that he seems to be lacking a certain toughness compared to his peers. While I don't think Luck was a bust, I think it's fair to call him a disappointment. His mentality prevented him from being the surefire HoF franchise QB we all thought he would be (and that his physical tools and intellect indicated he would be).

And to bring this discussion back into line with the topic, Stafford is an interesting QB option. He's a FA (though indications are that he's going to stay with the Lions). If Ben decides to retire after this season, I think Stafford would be worth considering.

Excellent points

I, for one, am on the Stafford bandwagon (of bringing him to the Steelers). The Lions have a new coach and a new GM, and thus, they might be wanting to start fresh, which would include trading Stafford for picks. Getting Stafford is a far more realistic possibility (than getting Watson), but Stafford is also 6 years older... which would make his cap number harder to spread out/defer. That said, in Omar Khan I trust.

Since Colbert has history with the Lions... this is indeed a more "realistic" possibility.

Of course, this is assuming that Ben rides off into the sunset with Lombardi #7 in hand.

[Mojouw]

Let's just say I think Watson is overpaid and an injury risk. He was the 2nd highest paid QB last year on a 4-12 team, and did not elevate them. He's 1-2 in the playoffs. As I said before he was down so often, then had to pass and the other team let them get yards in exchange to drain the clock.


If you think his cap number of 40.4 million in 2022 is " Average " by a QB standard, I've got a few bridges I'd like to sell you in Pittsburgh. It's high. And by the way the cap is likely going down, not up due to lack of the live gate and declining TV ratings. The Steelers will feel that pinch. It deserves its own thread.


Naming losers line Wentz doesn't help. He'll sign wherever he can start and roughly half of what Watson is making...if he's lucky. Teams do not want to overpay veteran QB's who failed to becoming a top 8 guy ( Say pro bowl or winner in the playoffs ) big bucks.


If Watson was on his first contract, and didn't have two grade 3 ACL injures to his knee, yeah I'd be interested for the right trade. He's not.

Again, you have totally missed the point.

If in Year 1 Franchise Starting QB A signs an extension of his rookie deal worth an Average Annual Value of $33 million, that sets the "market rate" around the league for future Franchise Starting QB extension of rookie deal contracts. Then, a season later, Franchise Starting QB B is negotiating an extension of his rookie deal. The starting point is now $33 million + a year of "cap inflation (usually about $10 million per year since 2014). So a $39 million dollar Average Annual Value for Franchise Starting QB B is right in line with the $33 million 2018 contract + cap inflation for one year. Further, agents are now pressing teams to go higher on the Average Annual Value to account for the "cap inflation" over the life of the deal.

Again, we can evaluate the individual player in greater detail, but if you look at as "Franchise Starting QB that is 24 years old", and AAV of $39 million is exactly where it ought to be. It looks rough because no one had any idea that the cap would either stay flat or go down when the contract was signed.

[Six Rings]

Again, you have totally missed the point.

If in Year 1 Franchise Starting QB A signs an extension of his rookie deal worth an Average Annual Value of $33 million, that sets the "market rate" around the league for future Franchise Starting QB extension of rookie deal contracts. Then, a season later, Franchise Starting QB B is negotiating an extension of his rookie deal. The starting point is now $33 million + a year of "cap inflation (usually about $10 million per year since 2014). So a $39 million dollar Average Annual Value for Franchise Starting QB B is right in line with the $33 million 2018 contract + cap inflation for one year. Further, agents are now pressing teams to go higher on the Average Annual Value to account for the "cap inflation" over the life of the deal.

Again, we can evaluate the individual player in greater detail, but if you look at as "Franchise Starting QB that is 24 years old", and AAV of $39 million is exactly where it ought to be. It looks rough because no one had any idea that the cap would either stay flat or go down when the contract was signed.


No, you're missing mine. I disagree with " Franchise QB " which is your premise.

1 ) How many franchise Qb's have a 1-2 record in the playoffs or worse?

2 ) How many franchise QB's Have had two grade 3 knee Surgeries before the age of 25?

3 ) How many Franchise QB's have a 4-12 record with his experience?

That would be 0.

Who outside of Houston is calling him a franchise QB? To become you need a winning record, the ability to win playoff games, and the ability to stay healthy.

This link has Waston #14 overall

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/ranking-32-best-qbs-nfl-2020s-halfway-point

Relative to his cap #, I'd rather have some people behind him. He's not worth the money he's being paid, period. He didn't rise his team up. Plug in an average starter and Houston would have close to the same record.

To close I bring up the name Kirk Cousins. Is he a " Franchise QB " Yes or No? He has more TD passes than Watson, a better team record, and is 8th overall in passing yardage and isn't a ticking time bomb for a knee injury.

Doesn't really matter much, he has a zero percent chance of being a Steeler.

[Mojouw]

No, you're missing mine. I disagree with " Franchise QB " which is your premise.

1 ) How many franchise Qb's have a 1-2 record in the playoffs or worse?

2 ) How many franchise QB's Have had two grade 3 knee Surgeries before the age of 25?

3 ) How many Franchise QB's have a 4-12 record with his experience?

That would be 0.

Who outside of Houston is calling him a franchise QB? To become you need a winning record, the ability to win playoff games, and the ability to stay healthy.

This link has Waston #14 overall

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/ranking-32-best-qbs-nfl-2020s-halfway-point

Relative to his cap #, I'd rather have some people behind him. He's not worth the money he's being paid, period. He didn't rise his team up. Plug in an average starter and Houston would have close to the same record.

To close I bring up the name Kirk Cousins. Is he a " Franchise QB " Yes or No? He has more TD passes than Watson, a better team record, and is 8th overall in passing yardage and isn't a ticking time bomb for a knee injury.

Doesn't really matter much, he has a zero percent chance of being a Steeler.

And that is my entire point. The ONLY two parties involved in the negotiations both agreed that Watson was/is a "Franchise Starting QB". Once that initial point is agreed to, the contract basically negotiates itself. So putting the contract in the category of "Extensions signed by 24-26 year old FRANCHISE QBs" during the 2018-2020 period; Watson's contract numbers are reasonable.

Now, if we, as fans, want to argue that we see it differently than the Texans and Watson...great! But that is different than understanding where/how the contract came to be. For instance, I see Watson as FRANCHISE guy and a potential league MVP. So I would gladly pay his contract out if I was in charge of almost any NFL franchise.

[Rotorhead]

Any thoughts on Tua? I keep reading the Phins are going to draft a QB in the first (3rd pick I think) and if that is the case, will they be dealing Tua? I think he could be very good with an actual team around him.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Any thoughts on Tua? I keep reading the Phins are going to draft a QB in the first (3rd pick I think) and if that is the case, will they be dealing Tua? I think he could be very good with an actual team around him.

I guarantee you the Phins won't be drafting a QB in the first.

Tua is their future QB.

[Six Rings]

And that is my entire point. The ONLY two parties involved in the negotiations both agreed that Watson was/is a "Franchise Starting QB". Once that initial point is agreed to, the contract basically negotiates itself. So putting the contract in the category of "Extensions signed by 24-26 year old FRANCHISE QBs" during the 2018-2020 period; Watson's contract numbers are reasonable.

Now, if we, as fans, want to argue that we see it differently than the Texans and Watson...great! But that is different than understanding where/how the contract came to be. For instance, I see Watson as FRANCHISE guy and a potential league MVP. So I would gladly pay his contract out if I was in charge of almost any NFL franchise.

Well, Denver felt Tim Tebow was worth their first round pick too. It only take one team. Two parties. Yeah, what player in the NFL would refuse to be the 2nd highest paid? Names please.....Houston was the stupid 2nd party.

How is Houston doing these days? League MVP? I'll take that bet. First off I can not recall one League MVP that did not play for a winning team. We both saw Watson this year play the Steelers this year. He wasn't that special. He has zero chance of being a Steeler.

Houston is screwed. 1 ) Watson is not worth the money. 2. They have negative cap space for 2021, partly because they over paid Watson to QB a 4-12 football team.. 3) They need to trade JJ Watt, he's not worth 17 million the way he's playing. Problem is few teams will pay 17 million a year for a declining player. 4 ) They traded away the 3rd overall pick for Tunsil and are paying him 19 million. He not close to worth that either. Their GM sucked, Maybe you could have done better, its hard to do worse.

On their OL, Watson holds the ball too long, not all those sacks are on the OL.

[Six Rings]

I guarantee you the Phins won't be drafting a QB in the first.

Tua is their future QB.

They said Tua is their guy. I can't see them drafting a QB high, but I can see them doing it by trading Tua for a mid first round pick IF only one QB has been picked. Then taking Fields / Wilson at #3 overall pick.

I'm based in the area. Tua looks very gun shy on the throws QB's have to make. He doesn't air it out for much yardage and was benched twice. Major Red flag. Homer fans will quickly say, oh but our receivers aren't very good. Well--they sure play a lot better when old man Fitz is at QB. Tua isn't running for much either.

It's too early to call Tua who just had another foot surgery a bust, but I think Miami made a mistake and should have picked Herbert. Now they are stuck with him. Behind closed doors, they may try to trade him

Tua himself is a fine human being, but red flag, he scored horribly on the wonderlic test, which is important for QB's. He also on the short side. Lots of past Alabama QB's looked really good in college.

[teegre]

Any thoughts on Tua? I keep reading the Phins are going to draft a QB in the first (3rd pick I think) and if that is the case, will they be dealing Tua? I think he could be very good with an actual team around him.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the top three picks. The Jets could stick with Darnold... or, trade him. The Dolphins could stick with Tua... or, trade him.

I heard an interesting discussion about drafting another QB and keeping Darnold/Tua. Then, let the pre-season play out, and the winner keeps the starting role (while the other is traded away). IMO, if you trade one away at that point in the season, you aren't going to get much in return...especially because you are trading away the "lesser" QB.

Another draft thought, if either team keeps their Qb and drafts another player, would it be Sewell (OT), Smith (WR), or Pitts (TE). IMO, I would probabaly take Pitts. Sewell is a lock for a decade-long stint at LT, but the next level of OTs is not too shabby this year. Same goes for Smith; there are a ton of good WRs (every year) to be had in R2. Conversely, there is only one upper-echelon TE.

[Born2Steel]

https://gotigersgo.com/news/2021/1/6/football-memphis-qb-brady-white-wins-prestigious-william-v-campbell-trophy.aspx


Smart guy, good QB. I'll leave it to some of you to look at Brady White's game film/mechanics/tangibles and give your opinions and critiques.

[86WARD]

Let’s say we fizzle out of the playoffs... and pick 20th. That is roughly 1600 points for ALL of our picks. The first overall is worth 3000. (Not enough to move up to #1.)

And, Yes, if I could get Watson for all of our picks, I’d do it in a heartbeat. Most drafts, teams are lucky to walk away with a starter, a good backup, a decent backup, and a special teamer... because, most draft picks fizzle out. We gave up a R1 & a R2 for an ILB. I’d say throwing in a R3 (decent backup) and camp fodder (R4-R7) would be worth it.

QB > ILB

I know, I know: there’s always a Tom Brady or an AB in those later-rounds. True, but only one per draft. I’d give up that chance (at striking gold) in order to have a young, proven franchise QB.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210107/efd268df5bfc8a40c70e989c1b2aab1c.png

[DesertSteel]

Wow! That picture of Watson is exciting! I'd trade two drafts for him, and three for Mahomes.

[teegre]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210107/efd268df5bfc8a40c70e989c1b2aab1c.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbmB9k2Y88

[teegre]

:willy:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/07/will-deshaun-watson-ask-for-a-trade/

[Mojouw]

:willy:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/07/will-deshaun-watson-ask-for-a-trade/

That is a lot of teams that would be interested in an overpriced, injury-risk, below average QB...:rofl2:

[86WARD]

It’s interesting to see the Eagles on the list. With the 6th pick, could the Eagles take a third “franchise QB” and possibly have Wentz, Hurts and say a Justin Fields in their roster for a brief minute or two?

[pczach]

That is a lot of teams that would be interested in an overpriced, injury-risk, below average QB...:rofl2:


I don't understand why anybody would be interested in Watson as their quarterback. What a loser...


:sarcasm2:

- - - Updated - - -


:willy:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/07/will-deshaun-watson-ask-for-a-trade/


Do you need a paper bag to breathe into? :sofunny:

[DesertSteel]

That is a lot of teams that would be interested in an overpriced, injury-risk, below average QB...:rofl2:
Lol... you missed your calling as a bad GM...

[teegre]

That is a lot of teams that would be interested in an overpriced, injury-risk, below average QB...:rofl2:

I see that Six Rings wants to criticize Watson for "only" winning 4 games and/or for only having a 1-2 record in the playoffs, but BoB left that team in shambles. Honestly, I am surprised Watson was able to keep most of those games competitive.

btw: Seeing JJ apologize to Deshaun at the end of the season finale got me thinking... maybe JJ will suggest that Deshaun request a trade to play with JJ's brother(s). :wink02:

[DesertSteel]

QBs I'd want, in order:

1. Mahomes
2. Josh Allen
3. Justin Herbert
4. Deshaun Watson
5. Russell Wilson

[Mojouw]

I see that Six Rings wants to criticize Watson for "only" winning 4 games and/or for only having a 1-2 record in the playoffs, but BoB left that team in shambles. Honestly, I am surprised Watson was able to keep most of those games competitive.

btw: Seeing JJ apologize to Deshaun at the end of the season finale got me thinking... maybe JJ will suggest that Deshaun request a trade to play with JJ's brother(s). :wink02:

I fully realize it is not going to happen, but JJ and Deshaun using player empowerment methods to force their way out of Houston and to Pittsburgh would be a great cosmic balance for putting up with AB and Bell as fans.

- - - Updated - - -


QBs I'd want, in order:

1. Mahomes
2. Josh Allen
3. Justin Herbert
4. Deshaun Watson
5. Russell Wilson

Great list. I have an order that I would prefer the five guys...but can't really get too upset over the names you came up with.

[teegre]

I fully realize it is not going to happen, but JJ and Deshaun using player empowerment methods to force their way out of Houston and to Pittsburgh would be a great cosmic balance for putting up with AB and Bell as fans.

Amen!!! :lol:

Really though, my gut tells me that if JJ is released (which the rumors are saying will occur), he will come to the Steelers to play with his brothers for a really, really, reeeeally reduced rate (like $3-4 million).

- - - Updated - - -


QBs I'd want, in order:

1. Mahomes
2. Josh Allen
3. Justin Herbert
4. Deshaun Watson
5. Russell Wilson

Not saying he is the best talent, but if I got to choose, give me Herbert.

Why?

He would still be on his rookie contract for the next four seasons. With that extra $30-$35 million per season, you could "keep the gang together" and still have an upper-echelon QB. (It is why the rumors of Urban Meyer coming the the Chargers have some validity.)

[DesertSteel]

If I knew for sure that Herbert would continue his performance and improve in year 2, I’d put him #2 and possibly #1.

[hawaiiansteeler]

I see that Six Rings wants to criticize Watson for "only" winning 4 games and/or for only having a 1-2 record in the playoffs, but BoB left that team in shambles. Honestly, I am surprised Watson was able to keep most of those games competitive.


I didn't realize Watson also played on Houston's horrible defense.

[Mojouw]

Amen!!! :lol:

Really though, my gut tells me that if JJ is released (which the rumors are saying will occur), he will come to the Steelers to play with his brothers for a really, really, reeeeally reduced rate (like $3-4 million).

- - - Updated - - -



Not saying he is the best talent, but if I got to choose, give me Herbert.

Why?

He would still be on his rookie contract for the next four seasons. With that extra $30-$35 million per season, you could "keep the gang together" and still have an upper-echelon QB. (It is why the rumors of Urban Meyer coming the the Chargers have some validity.)

Most recent few days of reports out of Houston sound like a franchise imploding.

I wouldn’t be shocked if they just burn it all down and start over.

[Steeler-in-west]

If Watson didn’t have any talent to work, Darnold didn’t as well. I haven’t seen much of Watson’s play but I’ve seen Darnold mostly in college, I know he can play. They both seem like somewhat similar Qb’s (both mobile) and they could both benefit being with the Steelers. but realistically if Ben were to retire after this season I see the Steelers going with Rudolph and Dobbs next year with possibly the addition of an older vet QB as insurance and maybe trying to get a franchise QB in the draft later.

[cubanstogie]

If we had watson this year our offense would be as explosive as KC. Top 5 in league IMO.

[teegre]

I didn't realize Watson also played on Houston's horrible defense.

He couldn’t have been much worse...

- - - Updated - - -


Most recent few days of reports out of Houston sound like a franchise imploding.

I wouldn’t be shocked if they just burn it all down and start over.

BoB drilled the holes, inserted the dynamite, and raised the plunger...

- - - Updated - - -


If Watson didn’t have any talent to work, Darnold didn’t as well. I haven’t seen much of Watson’s play but I’ve seen Darnold mostly in college, I know he can play. They both seem like somewhat similar Qb’s (both mobile) and they could both benefit being with the Steelers. but realistically if Ben were to retire after this season I see the Steelers going with Rudolph and Dobbs next year with possibly the addition of an older vet QB as insurance and maybe trying to get a franchise QB in the draft later.

Indeed :nod: Darnold has been mentioned many times over the past few months.

Watson is proven; thus, he would require a lot to acquire. While Darnold has potential, he isn’t a sure thing; so, he could likely be had for a R2 pick. (Stafford would probably require a R1 and a R2 pick.)

If the Steelers don’t trade for a QB, I’d draft one every single year until you hit the jackpot.

[86WARD]

So let’s say they do trade for Watson and they released Ben. Cap situation? I imagine extending Watson to manipulate his 2021 cap number (to go along with Ben’s dead money) is a must so they can free up space for Watt, Fitzpatrick, Hilton, JuJu or whoever? Or is it even possible? If so, what’s that going to look like?

[teegre]

So let’s say they do trade for Watson and they released Ben. Cap situation? I imagine extending Watson to manipulate his 2021 cap number (to go along with Ben’s dead money) is a must so they can free up space for Watt, Fitzpatrick, Hilton, JuJu or whoever? Or is it even possible? If so, what’s that going to look like?

Watson has the following amounts of money left on his contract (salary & bonuses):

2021: $16 million
2022: $40 million
2023: $42 million
2024: $37 million
2025: $32 million

2021 isn’t bad at all. Assuming he plays until 2028, you take that other $149 million and add (let’s say) $51 million extension. That is $20 million per season. What you do is push a little bit back during the first few years (when you need to win a championship) so that you can keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu. You also play off the signing bonus/guaranteed money as early as possible, that way the final season(s) of the contract are voidable. In turn, it would look like this:

2021: $15 million
2022: $15 million
2023: $15 million
2024: $15 million
2025: $30 million
2026: $30 million
2027: $35 million
2028: $45 million

In fact, that’s sort of what the Texans had already done. He only made $9 million this past season, and the last two years of his contract are “salary only” (that way they “could” cut him without a penalty). As his current contract is, 2021 is another cheap year, while 2022-23 are expensive and guaranteed, and then, 2024-25 giving them wiggle room.

[Six Rings]

Watson has the following amounts of money left on his contract (salary & bonuses):

2021: $16 million
2022: $40 million
2023: $42 million
2024: $37 million
2025: $32 million

2021 isn’t bad at all. Assuming he plays until 2028, you take that other $149 million and add (let’s say) $51 million extension. That is $20 million per season. What you do is push a little bit back during the first few years (when you need to win a championship) so that you can keep TJ, Hilton, and JuJu. You also play off the signing bonus/guaranteed money as early as possible, that way the final season(s) of the contract are voidable. In turn, it would look like this:

2021: $15 million
2022: $15 million
2023: $15 million
2024: $15 million
2025: $30 million
2026: $30 million
2027: $35 million
2028: $45 million

In fact, that’s sort of what the Texans had already done. He only made $9 million this past season, and the last two years of his contract are “salary only” (that way they “could” cut him without a penalty). As his current contract is, 2021 is another cheap year, while 2022-23 are expensive and guaranteed, and then, 2024-25 giving them wiggle room.


The Steelers are currently Negative
-($21,789,219) over the cap.

1 ) There is a good chance that the cap will go down, making it even tougher on us.
2 ) We need cut people ( Likely Williams and McDonald ) just to come close to even and we also need room to sign the rookies
3 ) We own Ben 41,2 million next year. If he's cut, we own him 19 million.
4 ) We have free agents galore this off season https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/pittsburgh-steelers/

Trading or having enough cap space for any good QB is fantasy.

[teegre]

@Six Rings

If the cap stays “as is”, then it will indeed be difficult to keep anyone. That said...

1) I think that by the owners adding a 17th game to the schedule, the NFLPA will respond by forcing the salary cap to go up. Honestly, the NFL owners get the vast majority of its revenue from its television deal; the owners certainly aren’t “losing” as much money (from lack of ticket sales) as they try to make it seem. The “cap going down” is a simply a negotiation tactic.

2) In Khan I trust.

3) We dealt with $22 million in dead money for an asshat (AB); I’m perfectly fine with dealing with $19 million for Steelers-legend Ben Roethlisberger (when he retires with a third Lombardi in his grasp).

[teegre]

The Texans’ new GM, Nick Caserio, worked for the Taperiots for 18 years. You just know that he’s going to trade Watson to his former boss. Considering the trades that BoB put out there the past few years, the “steal” that the Taperiots get (Watson for a R1 pick) will seem like a good trade by comparison. :doh:

[Six Rings]

@Six Rings

If the cap stays “as is”, then it will indeed be difficult to keep anyone. That said...

1) I think that by the owners adding a 17th game to the schedule, the NFLPA will respond by forcing the salary cap to go up. Honestly, the NFL owners get the vast majority of its revenue from its television deal; the owners certainly aren’t “losing” as much money (from lack of ticket sales) as they try to make it seem. The “cap going down” is a simply a negotiation tactic.

2) In Khan I trust.

3) We dealt with $22 million in dead money for an asshat (AB); I’m perfectly fine with dealing with $19 million for Steelers-legend Ben Roethlisberger (when he retires with a third Lombardi in his grasp).

The NFL Said the cap might go down. That's a preview. It's not going up. Business is business. Khan might be gone this month. Colbert might be gone next year as well. Tomlin might not get a new contract. The writing is on the wall and none of these three men have been extended.

I'll take #3 gladly, however once Ben retires our window to play in another super bowl closes for a while. If we do win the super bowl, who wouldn't want Ben back for one more year? Ben doesn't talk money but I have a hard time believing he'd pass of 40+ million next year. He's in decline, not shot. And if the Steelers do cut Ben, we better have someone under center better than Mason Rudolph. With our cap space, that person needs to come from the draft, so it would be Mac Jones or Kyle Trask. I'm at the point of rolling the dice on Jones once he works out. He's very smart, and an ascending player. The knock on his is the arm. Well when was the last time you saw his receivers slowing down tor a deep ball, which he throws often? The velocityof the deep pass is fine to me. Not John Eway, but he's clearly not Danny Wuerffel either.


Another knock is speed. He ran a 4.8, but that is not hugely important for a pocket passer. He has a fine release and sees it quickly, making him tough to sack. In the games where he was pressured, he played well. Mentally he's excellent.

[Mojouw]

@Six Rings

If the cap stays “as is”, then it will indeed be difficult to keep anyone. That said...

1) I think that by the owners adding a 17th game to the schedule, the NFLPA will respond by forcing the salary cap to go up. Honestly, the NFL owners get the vast majority of its revenue from its television deal; the owners certainly aren’t “losing” as much money (from lack of ticket sales) as they try to make it seem. The “cap going down” is a simply a negotiation tactic.

2) In Khan I trust.

3) We dealt with $22 million in dead money for an asshat (AB); I’m perfectly fine with dealing with $19 million for Steelers-legend Ben Roethlisberger (when he retires with a third Lombardi in his grasp).

Using this Calculator: https://overthecap.com/calculator/pittsburgh-steelers/ and doing the following:

1. Ben R retires. (Use the cut button in the calculator - same thing for cap purposes)
2. Pouncey retires. (Use the cut button in the calculator - same thing for cap purposes)
3. Restructure Tuitt, Heyward, and DeCastro.
4. Cut McDonald and Haden.

That is just over $28 million in cap space. I would argue the only controversial move there is the cutting of Haden. Take that out and it is $21 million in cap space. You can go higher if you cut more (can get teh number to around $33 million by cutting VW and Samuels).

Summation: If Ben R is not going to be on the 2021 Steelers roster -- there are ways to make cap room to acquire another QB. Those moves will have a cost beyond cap space in draft resources and the inability to sign other FAs like Juju, Dupree, Conner, Hilton, and Sutton. But the cash can be "found" if they wanted to.

[teegre]

Desmond Ridder is returning to school.

[Hawkman]

QBs I'd want, in order:

1. Mahomes
2. Josh Allen
3. Justin Herbert
4. Deshaun Watson
5. Russell Wilson

Interesting that you have Herbert above Watson.

[Rotorhead]

Well, looks like Watson is going to do his beast AB impersonation to get out of Houston. He probably goes to the Cheats, but that also means there is a chance for him to come to the Burgh if Ben does retire. Losing a few guys won’t hurt if we can keep the core intact we may be on a 1 year turn around SB window.

[Born2Steel]

Desean Watson and Sean Payton?

The Steelers have made some surprising moves recently with getting Minkah and the trade up for Bush. But thathas not been their normal thing. Maybe they make a play for Watson but I would still be a little shocked if they did. I just worry about the cost.

[DesertSteel]

Interesting that you have Herbert above Watson.
I’ve watched JH play about 8 times this year. He’s a monster. And way more durable than Watson.

[DesertSteel]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?

[Drazo85]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?Leave it. Two ACLs too much.

Послато са Mi A1 помоћу Тапатока

[Mojouw]

Watt had 4 knee injuries in college with 2 surgeries. Just saying.

I wouldn’t do it.

[Rotorhead]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?

No way, Watt is going to be a generational player like Troy.

[DesertSteel]

No way, Watt is going to be a generational player like Troy.
I agree about Watt. But it’s an offensive league. I’d make the trade.

[Hawkman]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?

NO!!

[Rotorhead]

I agree about Watt. But it’s an offensive league. I’d make the trade.

Von Miller disagrees

[DesertSteel]

Von Miller disagrees
Chances are that Von is done at 31. A QB is just getting started at 31.

[FrancoLambert]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?

Nope. Leave it.

[teegre]

Ok... let’s get real...

TJ Watt and a #2 pick for Watson. Take it or leave it?

That is a very interesting question.

TJ Watt is a fan favorite on a team where even when the QB is a star, he ranks about seventh in popularity amongst the fans. (It’s all about defense!!!) The fans would lynch the GM who traded him.

That said, as we have seen with JJ Watt early on and currently with Khalil Mack, having a DPOY on defense and no QB... that doesn’t really translate into championships.

[DesertSteel]

That is a very interesting question.

TJ Watt is a fan favorite on a team where even when the QB is a star, he ranks about seventh in popularity amongst the fans. (It’s all about defense!!!) The fans would lynch the GM who traded him.

That said, as we have seen with JJ Watt early on and currently with Khalil Mack, having a DPOY on defense and no QB... that doesn’t really translate into championships.
But you didn’t answer the question Mr. GM. The Texans are on the line with two other teams on hold...

[W&M_Steeler]

That is a very interesting question.

TJ Watt is a fan favorite on a team where even when the QB is a star, he ranks about seventh in popularity amongst the fans. (It’s all about defense!!!) The fans would lynch the GM who traded him.

That said, as we have seen with JJ Watt early on and currently with Khalil Mack, having a DPOY on defense and no QB... that doesn’t really translate into championships.

I haven't seen evidence that Watson is a championship QB rather than just a regular-season stat monster, and, given Watson's injuries, there's no way I would trade JJ to get Watson. Mahomes? Yes. Prime Rodgers? Yes. Not Watson.

[teegre]

I haven't seen evidence that Watson is a championship QB rather than just a regular-season stat monster, and, given Watson's injuries, there's no way I would trade JJ to get Watson. Mahomes? Yes. Prime Rodgers? Yes. Not Watson.

Let me use this as an example... This season, his defense is bottom five in almost every category. Watson doesn’t get short fields, and more importantly, he has to take risks to make things happen... and despite taking risks, he was top three in turnovers and completion percentage.

Watson has to do it all on his own. In fact, JJ Watt became so fed up with the rest of the team taking plays off, that he let out a tirade to the media.

He reminds me of Stafford: surrounded by piles of meh.

- - - Updated - - -


But you didn’t answer the question Mr. GM. The Texans are on the line with two other teams on hold...

I say: Yes.

I immediately follow up by letting the fans win a chance to “Hug a Defender” after each home game. (Don’t worry: COID isn’t contagious when it comes to marketing ploys.)

[W&M_Steeler]

Let me use this as an example... This season, his defense is bottom five in almost every category. Watson doesn’t get short fields, and more importantly, he has to take risks to make things happen... and despite taking risks, he was top three in turnovers and completion percentage.

Watson has to do it all on his own. In fact, JJ Watt became so fed up with the rest of the team taking plays off, that he let out a tirade to the media.

He reminds me of Stafford: surrounded by piles of meh.

I'm not saying that Watson is a bad QB. I am saying that he hasn't proven enough to me to make me want to trade our best defender, someone on a HoF trajectory, to get him. For all we know, Watson would be a choker who cracks under post-season pressure. Kordell had some great regular seasons but turned into a different guy in the playoffs when the pressure set in. I wouldn't want to trade Watt to get a guy who isn't post-season tested.

[teegre]

I'm not saying that Watson is a bad QB. I am saying that he hasn't proven enough to me to make me want to trade our best defender, someone on a HoF trajectory, to get him. For all we know, Watson would be a choker who cracks under post-season pressure. Kordell had some great regular seasons but turned into a different guy in the playoffs when the pressure set in. I wouldn't want to trade Watt to get a guy who isn't post-season tested.

risk-reward :nod:

For me, the reward outweighs the risk.

For you, it does not.

It’s why NFL teams have drafting meetings. I want Marino; you want to stick with Bradshaw and surround him with a better defense. But, I listen to you, because you found Mike Webster in R5 (you know you’re stuff). btw: Thank you for staring Ben; I was hell bent of drafting Shawn Andrew’s... :lol: ... what was I thinking!?!

[Rotorhead]

Chances are that Von is done at 31. A QB is just getting started at 31.

But neither Watt or Watson are 31, and Von basically won a SB by himself, he took over those playoffs and the SB, Watt is that type of player IMO

[teegre]

Four years ago today, Watson won the NCAA Championship. :nod:

[DesertSteel]

But neither Watt or Watson are 31, and Von basically won a SB by himself, he took over those playoffs and the SB, Watt is that type of player IMO
An All-Pro type QB will always have more value than an All-Pro LB.

[Six Rings]

I'm not saying that Watson is a bad QB. I am saying that he hasn't proven enough to me to make me want to trade our best defender, someone on a HoF trajectory, to get him. For all we know, Watson would be a choker who cracks under post-season pressure. Kordell had some great regular seasons but turned into a different guy in the playoffs when the pressure set in. I wouldn't want to trade Watt to get a guy who isn't post-season tested.

He's 1-2 in the post season, and of course to get there you had to be a decent team that year. So he is tested for 3 post season games. IMO Waton's knee is a ticking time bomb, with the grade 3 ACL injuries.

Most of the QB's who get yardage from running are better early in their careers, and fade later. IMO, too much of Watson's yardage came in what I call " Garbage time ", when the opposing defense goal was to kill the clock in exchange for preventing a quick score. Being on a 4-12 team ( What Franchise QB was ever on a 4-12 team in his 4th season ) Watson had a lot of " Garbage time " He also holds the ball too long.

Since the press seems to think he wants out, well quickly see what his value is via trade.

Maybe a team with an older QB that needs one, and doesn't pick inside the top 8, AND has a lot of cap space will roll the dice on a trade for him.

[teegre]

Maybe we sign Taylor Heinicke... :lol:

I’m joking, but the kid looks better than some of the other QBs in the NFL. I highly doubt that we are seeing the next Kurt Warner, but maybe we are seeing the second coming of Tommy Maddox.

[Mojouw]

Maybe we sign Taylor Heinicke... :lol:

I’m joking, but the kid looks better than some of the other QBs in the NFL. I highly doubt that we are seeing the next Kurt Warner, but maybe we are seeing the second coming of Tommy Maddox.

He looks like he’s flummoxed the defense because he’s just doing random things. All moxie and fearlessness.

[teegre]

He looks like he’s flummoxed the defense because he’s just doing random things. All moxie and fearlessness.

...aaaand, he’s hurt. :doh:

[Mojouw]

...aaaand, he’s hurt. :doh:

He's still balling though.

[tube517]

Why do I crave a Heineken?

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[Six Rings]

It looks like the media is moving a guy I like up their boards. Mac Jones. If he goes before our pick, it might come down to Kyle Trask or nothing for us in round one as he will not be there for us in round two.

The Steeler could ignore QB for this year, and opt to re-build the OL and RB positions in pick #1, #2, and #3. Ben wants 40+ million in 2021. I'd be shocked if he doesn't come back.

[Six Rings]

Who is Taylor Heinicke? He's is on his 4th team, but just threw for 300 yards and ran for 46 in the playoffs. Passing for a score and running for a score. Impressive. Might The Washington Football team think they have their man and not draft a quarterback high? Let's hope so!

[teegre]

It looks like the media is moving a guy I like up their boards. Mac Jones. If he goes before our pick, it might come down to Kyle Trask or nothing for us in round one as he will not be there for us in round two.

The Steeler could ignore QB for this year, and opt to re-build the OL and RB positions in pick #1, #2, and #3. Ben wants 40+ million in 2021. I'd be shocked if he doesn't come back.

I’m out on Mac Jones and Kyke Trask. I’ve posted my thoughts on them in several threads... if you want to read my reasoning (I don’t want to bore anyone else by saying the same thing again here).

If Ben comes back (my gut still says that he retires), I’d go OL, OL, RB. I know that you like Najee (who wouldn’t LOL), but in my opinion, I’d rather improve the O-line first. Plus, the 85-100 range seems to be the sweet spot for RBs: not overpaying but you can still get a very good RB, such as Trey Sermon (Ohio St.) or Michael Carter (UNC).

[Born2Steel]

I’m out on Mac Jones and Kyke Trask. I’ve posted my thoughts on them in several threads... if you want to read my reasoning (I don’t want to bore anyone else by saying the same thing again here).

If Ben comes back (my gut still says that he retires), I’d go OL, OL, RB. I know that you like Najee (who wouldn’t LOL), but in my opinion, I’d rather improve the O-line first. Plus, the 85-100 range seems to be the sweet spot for RBs: not overpaying but you can still get a very good RB, such as Trey Sermon (Ohio St.) or Michael Carter (UNC).

Or Kenneth Gainwell? :nod:

[teegre]

Or Kenneth Gainwell? :nod:

Added to the list. :nod:

The morning Watson rumor:

Watson to Miami for Tua and the #3 overall

[Mojouw]

Added to the list. :nod:

The morning Watson rumor:

Watson to Miami for Tua and the #3 overall

Counter with Watson and JJ Watt for Rudolph, Round #1, Round #3, and a 2022 Round 2? It would work in Madden Franchise mode!!!:applaudit:

The point is, if Ben R walks away or is forced out...I would give up a bundle to get Watson.

The Steelers WRs (even minuse Juju), Matt Canada, and Watson? That'd be one heckuva instant "rebuild".

[DesertSteel]

Added to the list. :nod:

The morning Watson rumor:

Watson to Miami for Tua and the #3 overall

Watson to Jacksonville for the #1 overall. If I was Jax, I'd ask to throw in a 2nd rounder and I'd take it.

[pczach]

We still haven't seen Ben play out the rest of this season. If he plays well and wants to come back, that's happening.

Personally, I wouldn't trade TJ Watt and a 2nd round pick for Watson. How many more draft picks will you use trying to replace Watt? If you don't nail the first try, that trade doesn't look nearly as good, and could end up being disastrous. It will probably take another 1st round pick to replace Watt, and there are no guarantees. The trade gets very expensive, very quickly.

I love Watson as a player and everything I know about him as a leader and off the field as well. But I wouldn't trade TJ Watt. We have already seen what losing Dupree has done to the defense on one edge. Imagine losing both of them? What then? This is a team that has led the NFL in sacks for 4 years in a row. They pressure the quarterbacks more than any other team. Do you then sign Dupree to keep one edge player and his history of injury? Is that the plan? If that's the case and you have to sign one....I'm keeping Watt.

If Dupree is gone because you can't afford him as well...that pressure is gone, this defense goes back to garbage quickly with Heyward getting old, no Watt, no Dupree, and pick a couple major injuries that happen every year...plus you're down another high draft pick trying to replace defense when you still really need to draft offense and your QB makes $40 mil a year. Add to that, Minkah will be needing a huge contract soon.....and you would be watching the complete dismantling of a very good defense that took years to build.

If you really think about it, the situation here may not be tremendously better than what he had with the Texans initially. Of course the organization is better and they would get more talent around him in a couple years, but with Watson making huge money, I just don't think I would risk losing the great young core of players they currently have.

If Ben retires, I keep Watt and try to sign a Stafford or other quality FA quarterback that would play at a discount rate to make a run at a championship if they feel Rudolph isn't up to it to make a run with this group of players. If you can't get a quality QB cheap, draft becomes the priority.

Imagine keeping the current core intact, and they are able to draft a quality QB. This team would be able to contend for the foreseeable future and have a QB on a rookie deal.

I also think that the Steelers want to draft a quarterback and try to find an answer for another 12-15 year run. Working the salary cap around a great QB gets old after a while, and I think they would want to try to build around something new with a lower initial cap hit.

Me? If Ben retires, I probably try to sign Stafford cheap. I still don't think Rudolph has shown enough to hand him the keys to the kingdom. If I could, I would rather have Watt and a guy like Stafford, than only have Watson. If I can't find a quality QB at a good price, I draft a QB and go with Rudolph until someone is able to beat him out. The draft is always the best long-term solution if you can find a very good one or better.

[Six Rings]

Maybe we sign Taylor Heinicke... :lol:

I’m joking, but the kid looks better than some of the other QBs in the NFL. I highly doubt that we are seeing the next Kurt Warner, but maybe we are seeing the second coming of Tommy Maddox.

Who knows. With 32 teams, he's getting paid. He's more like the next Doug Fluite, if he do it consistently. A small guy with a weaker than normal arm and some moxie to him.

[Rotorhead]

Someone is signing Heinicke after that performance.

What about Rivers for a one year deal if Ben retires. He looked good in that playoff game, plenty of arm left. Best of all, maybe he could convince Tomlin to run our OC out of town!

[86WARD]

Someone is signing Heinicke after that performance.

What about Rivers for a one year deal if Ben retires. He looked good in that playoff game, plenty of arm left. Best of all, maybe he could convince Tomlin to run our OC out of town!

Rivers looks just like Ben out there and will be one season older. No thanks.

[Rotorhead]

Rivers looks just like Ben out there and will be one season older. No thanks.

I would take Cam Newton for one year if it means we get rid of Fitchner honestly.

[EzraTank]

Someone is signing Heinicke after that performance.

What about Rivers for a one year deal if Ben retires. He looked good in that playoff game, plenty of arm left. Best of all, maybe he could convince Tomlin to run our OC out of town!

No thanks. The days of guys standing in the pocket and throwing (i.e. Ben/Rivers) are over. You need mobile QB's to win in today's league.

[DesertSteel]

Hopefully somebody other than Ben.

[Fire Goodell]

Call me crazy but let Rudolph compete for the job. It was just one game but I was really impressed with his improvement on arm strength and accuracy on the long ball

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Hopefully somebody other than Ben.

I think he mulls it over for a month or 2, then says he wants back for 1 more year.

Question is if the Steelers just release him and save the $19million in cap space and look for somebody like Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Fitzpatrick, while they search for their future QB with the #24 pick. IMO, not capable of winning a SB with Ben (havent been for 3 years), so might have to embrace the suck for a few years until the rebuild happens. Its kind of a Cliff Stoudt, Mark Malone year or 2 in the hope that they can make a trade or somebody with promise is available at #24 this year.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Call me crazy but let Rudolph compete for the job. It was just one game but I was really impressed with his improvement on arm strength and accuracy on the long ball

Ben's contract is around $41 million next year. So they either string it out some more to spread out the cap, or just release Ben in Feb. and save around $19 million, while eating a $21 million in dead cap in 2021. Ben is already past his prime and not going to win another Super Bowl, so I say its time to move on. Let Rudolph and another vet compete for the starting job, draft a QB at 24 and have all of Ben's dead cap off the books in 2022.

Time for most to realize its not practical to be sentimental about Ben and that trying to win a Super Bowl with a 39 year old QB earning over $20 million is like leaving your 97 year old grandpa on life support, because you think there is a chance he will wake up and take you for a cruise in his T-bird one last time.

[Mojouw]

Ben's contract is around $41 million next year. So they either string it out some more to spread out the cap, or just release Ben in Feb. and save around $19 million, while eating a $21 million in dead cap in 2021. Ben is already past his prime and not going to win another Super Bowl, so I say its time to move on. Let Rudolph and another vet compete for the starting job, draft a QB at 24 and have all of Ben's dead cap off the books in 2022.

Time for most to realize its not practical to be sentimental about Ben and that trying to win a Super Bowl with a 39 year old QB earning over $20 million is like leaving your 97 year old grandpa on life support, because you think there is a chance he will wake up and take you for a cruise in his T-bird one last time.

So you're saying that Daddy took the T-bird away?

[Shoes]

So you're saying that Daddy took the T-bird away?


That would be a good song title. :chuckle:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

So you're saying that Daddy took the T-bird away?

Nah, he had a Silver Thunderbird. :car:

- - - Updated - - -


That would be a good song title. :chuckle: ....probably would never work.

[Rotorhead]

I think he mulls it over for a month or 2, then says he wants back for 1 more year.

Question is if the Steelers just release him and save the $19million in cap space and look for somebody like Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Fitzpatrick, while they search for their future QB with the #24 pick. IMO, not capable of winning a SB with Ben (havent been for 3 years), so might have to embrace the suck for a few years until the rebuild happens. Its kind of a Cliff Stoudt, Mark Malone year or 2 in the hope that they can make a trade or somebody with promise is available at #24 this year.

Why would you draft a QB at 24? If we are going to rebuild, fix the OL and draft the positions we need, then after a year of suck, draft a QB with probably pick 10-15. Makes more sense, then the new QB comes into a good situation instead of a crappy OL and no running game.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Who do you draft at 24 Mac Jones ? Dude has wr's open 15 yards by themselves all the time. How do we know how good he is ? Guess we will see a little tonight!

[teegre]

We draft at 22. It’s a very good spot to trade up... if the right guy falls out of the top ten.

Better yet, when the Lions take a QB earlier in the draft, Colbert should immediately call them to trade for Stafford.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

We draft at 22. It’s a very good spot to trade up... if the right guy falls out of the top ten.

Better yet, when the Lions take a QB earlier in the draft, Colbert should immediately call them to trade for Stafford. I don't want Stafford Teegre and we need a good young one if there. I'm okay with Fitz magic on the cheap for one year.

- - - Updated - - -

Question is who is a good one at 22 ?

[teegre]

I don't want Stafford Teegre and we need a good young one if there. I'm okay with Fitz magic on the cheap for one year.

- - - Updated - - -

Question is who is a good one at 22 ?

You don’t want Stafford, because he is too old... but, you want Fitzmagic???

At 22, you are in no man’s land. Mac Jones and Kyke Trask are very accurate, but their arm strength wouid limit them to 10 yard throws. You know... like we already have in Rudolph (and Ben). Plus, Jones only had to throw it 5 yards and the talented skill players did the rest. I like Trask until I saw him play without his weapons. :scared:

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

You don’t want Stafford, because he is too old... but, you want Fitzmagic???

At 22, you are in no man’s land. Mac Jones and Kyke Trask are very accurate, but their arm strength wouid limit them to 10 yard throws. You know... like we already have in Rudolph (and Ben). Plus, Jones only had to throw it 5 yards and the talented skill players did the rest. I like Trask until I saw him play without his weapons. :scared: Yep and just want Fitz for one year deal.Don't want Stafford for the 5 years he has left! We don't need a old QB to invest to much money in and our issue now with Ben.

[DesertSteel]

We draft at 22. It’s a very good spot to trade up... if the right guy falls out of the top ten.

Better yet, when the Lions take a QB earlier in the draft, Colbert should immediately call them to trade for Stafford.
The Chiefs started with the 27th pick and traded up for Mahomes.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

The Chiefs started with the 27th pick and traded up for Mahomes. There is not a Mahomes in this draft though.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

You don’t want Stafford, because he is too old... but, you want Fitzmagic???

At 22, you are in no man’s land. Mac Jones and Kyke Trask are very accurate, but their arm strength wouid limit them to 10 yard throws. You know... like we already have in Rudolph (and Ben). Plus, Jones only had to throw it 5 yards and the talented skill players did the rest. I like Trask until I saw him play without his weapons. :scared:

You know I'm hoping Jamie Newman is the guy. Still have to see some offseason workouts, but he is gonna be under the radar to fans, but not to talent evaluators.

[Shoes]

There is not a Mahomes in this draft though.

Then you have to do as mojo said awhile back, keep drafting QB's

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Then you have to do as mojo said awhile back, keep drafting QB's For what it's worth I don't think there is a Mahomes in next years draft either. Maybe 2025.

[EzraTank]

Eagles fired Doug Peterson, which seems to indicate that they choose Wentz over him. I'm thinking they will build around Wentz (huge contract) and Jalen Hurts could be available.

Interested?

[dislocatedday]

Eagles fired Doug Peterson, which seems to indicate that they choose Wentz over him. I'm thinking they will build around Wentz (huge contract) and Jalen Hurts could be available.

Interested?

I would be interested in Hurts, depending on what the Eagles want in return for him. If they want multiple first round/high round picks then no thanks.

[EzraTank]

I would be interested in Hurts, depending on what the Eagles want in return for him. If they want multiple first round/high round picks then no thanks.

They spent a 2nd round pick on him and I think they would take the same back, but I agree anything more, no thanks.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I would be interested in Hurts, depending on what the Eagles want in return for him. If they want multiple first round/high round picks then no thanks.

Hurts is a promising young QB with a variable cost to the Eagles of $3.3 million over the next 3 seasons. They arent giving that up, unless their GM is an idiot, as he is at worst Tyrod Taylor and at Best Dak Prescott but not as strong a runner , but faster.

Then again, the GM might really be an idiot.

[EzraTank]

Hurts is a promising young QB with a variable cost to the Eagles of $3.3 million over the next 3 seasons. They arent giving that up, unless their GM is an idiot, as he is at worst Tyrod Taylor and at Best Dak Prescott but not as strong a runner , but faster.

Then again, the GM might really be an idiot.

They just fired their coach that Wentz hated. Wentz contract numbers:

2021:
$31 million with $24 million dead space if cut

2022:
$36 million with $15 million dead space if cut

2023:
$32 million with $6 dead space if cut

They have no reason to keep both of them and since they fired the coach I'm guessing they are moving forward with Wentz. At minimum you call them and ask.

[dislocatedday]

Hurts is a promising young QB with a variable cost to the Eagles of $3.3 million over the next 3 seasons. They arent giving that up, unless their GM is an idiot, as he is at worst Tyrod Taylor and at Best Dak Prescott but not as strong a runner , but faster.

Then again, the GM might really be an idiot.

Oh, I don't think they are looking to trade him............but if they were I would definitely be interested, especially considering his small NFL salary.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I'm sold on Mac Jones now and also like the TE for OS.

[that1guy]

Trading up to draft a QB ( arguably the most important position in professional sports) when your franchise QB is finished should be a no brainer . The Steelers need Offense
at almost every position and it will take multiple drafts to get back to dominance. Ben is far too expensive at 41 mil to get any value from the deal.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Trading up to draft a QB ( arguably the most important position in professional sports) when your franchise QB is finished should be a no brainer . The Steelers need Offense
at almost every position and it will take multiple drafts to get back to dominance. Ben is far too expensive at 41 mil to get any value from the deal. And go get Jones and don't think it wouldn't cost a ton to get him.

[BlackAndGold]

It's going to be very interesting to see what they do at QB.

This is a talented QB class coming up, which means teams will be aggressive by trading up. Would not be cheap.

Letting JuJu and Bud walk should equal two 3rd round comp picks in 22', so maybe it would bring comfort in moving future picks.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

They just fired their coach that Wentz hated. Wentz contract numbers:

2021:
$31 million with $24 million dead space if cut

2022:
$36 million with $15 million dead space if cut

2023:
$32 million with $6 dead space if cut

They have no reason to keep both of them and since they fired the coach I'm guessing they are moving forward with Wentz. At minimum you call them and ask.

Eagles have the cap space to handle the Wentz contract. Wentz will be in Philly in 2020 and maybe even 2021. The dead cap space to cut him loose is lower in 2022. Carson Wentz Contract Breakdowns, Salary Cap Figures, Salaries, Bonuses | Spotrac (https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/carson-wentz-18950/)

So Wentz and Hurts will be #1 and #2 next season under a new coach. If Wentz falters again, then Hurts will have another opportunity to play. Wentz hasnt played well since 2018 and Hurts is a really cheap insurance policy at approx. $1 million a season for the next 3 seasons.

Its not a case of either Wentz or Hurts. The Eagles have both under contract and can have both for the next 3 years if they want, because Hurts contract is so cheap. A phone call costs nothing, but it makes zero sense for the Eagles to trade away a young rookie QB, that won a game and has an inexpensive contract.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Heck with other teams players and give up our first two picks for Jones.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Heck with other teams players and give up our first two picks for Jones.

Give up the first 2 picks for the 4th best QB in the draft???

Again, I am glad that sane people manage the Steelers operations.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Give up the first 2 picks for the 4th best QB in the draft???

Again, I am glad that sane people manage the Steelers operations. Okay then give our 1 for Hurts that has not impressed me playing with the Eagles.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Okay then give our 1 for Hurts that has not impressed me playing with the Eagles.

You should throw Benny Snell in the deal too. He's a bell cow back. :rofl:

[teegre]

The Chiefs started with the 27th pick and traded up for Mahomes.

If Wilson drops anywhere near 10, I’m ALL for trading up.

I just don’t see him getting out of the top 5 (in fact, I think he might go #2 overall)... and, we don’t have the draft capital to pull off that level of a trade.

[Six Rings]

Did anyone see Mac Jones play last night? 36 for 45, 464 yards 5 TD's. 4 rushes 11 yards. Not bad.

[teegre]

You know I'm hoping Jamie Newman is the guy. Still have to see some offseason workouts, but he is gonna be under the radar to fans, but not to talent evaluators.

At 32, I would have blinked once, but then, I would have bitten the bullet (when I see that cheap “fifth-year option” in the horizon).

At 24, I’m blinking quite a bit. :lol:

Now that we are drafting at 56, the question becomes: Do we wait until R2? (Maybe we need to trade up a few spots in R2???) Waitingbis more aligned with Newman’s value. While we wouldn’t have the coveted “fifth-year option”, we also would not be reaching/drafting due to need.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Did anyone see Mac Jones play last night? 36 for 45, 464 yards 5 TD's. 4 rushes 11 yards. Not bad.

Did anyone see him throwing a swing pass for a TD to Smith?? Or a screen pass that Najee Harris took in for a TD? or a wide open corner route to Smith for another TD, where the Safety never gave help??

Have to look at something deeper than the stat line. The better NFL QB was wearing an Ohio State jersey last night. At best, Mac Jones is the #4 QB in the draft. He may actually be more like the #7 QB in the draft.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

If Wilson drops anywhere near 10, I’m ALL for trading up.

I just don’t see him getting out of the top 5 (in fact, I think he might go #2 overall)... and, we don’t have the draft capital to pull off that level of a trade.

Lawrence, Wilson, Fields will be the top 3 draft picks IMO. Could honestly be a situation like the 2004 draft, with 3 solid QB's in the draft that could lead a franchise for a decade. McShay has Wilson ahead of Fields, so if Fields drops close to that, I would trade up for sure.

I am with you in that I am not sure of the arm strength of Trask and Jones will be worth taking early. I think Trey Lance and Jamie Newman start coming into the conversation at middle to bottom of the first.

[EzraTank]

I just think Lawrence is going to be a bust.

[cubanstogie]

I just think Lawrence is going to be a bust.
Thats how I feel about Fields. Just another Ohio State QB that will not make it in NFL. Jones on other hand Id gamble on. No doubt he has more weapons than any other qb, but throws better than Fields, has good size. Not a great runner but can scramble for some yards. For playing one year he’s done incredible job.

[dislocatedday]

I just think Lawrence is going to be a bust.

It is so hard to know with these QBs and how they will adjust to NFL play. I remember last year there were draft experts in the media who thought Justin Herbert would be a bust. I can only tell you that IMO he looked like the best rookie QB I can remember since Ben in 2004, and far from a bust.

[cubanstogie]

I looked at draft order, to me it appears there are 8 teams that could draft a QB prior to Steelers pick. If they are not set on Rudolph, or Ben another year obviously a trade up is needed. Id have no problem seeing what Rudolph could do for full year, as long as they get some o line and RB help. Ive wrote off next year as rebuilding. Lots of decisions coming up.

[Born2Steel]

For the sake of this discussion let's say BR does retire. How much urgency does Colbert and co put on replacing/displacing Rudolph early in this draft? Over continuing the OL rebuild? Over keeping the DB room from dropping back to the level of just a couple years ago? Maybe, but I don't think so. Depending on Pouncey's decision, and how the FA OTs are handled, I think the 1st priority will be OL. My gut tells me the QB room will look very much the same as it did this season.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

For the sake of this discussion let's say BR does retire. How much urgency does Colbert and co put on replacing/displacing Rudolph early in this draft? Over continuing the OL rebuild? Over keeping the DB room from dropping back to the level of just a couple years ago? Maybe, but I don't think so. Depending on Pouncey's decision, and how the FA OTs are handled, I think the 1st priority will be OL. My gut tells me the QB room will look very much the same as it did this season.

Honestly, if Ben retires there is $19 million in cap found. There may be a way to spread some of that to Big Al at LT, who is only 32 years old and can likely play 3 more seasons. Guard is fine with Dotson and DeCastro(who can be a candidate to extend his current deal past the 2022 expiry) and Okorafor is likely in the longer term plan as well as Banner if they offer him a deal while rehabbing. I will assume that Pouncey retires, when Ben does.

The other option is to let AV go in free agency and then roll with Chukks at LT. Steelers line from left to right of Chukks, Dotson, FA like David Andrews or Ted Karras at center, DeCastro, Banner are the starting O line. Draft a C/G, as well as another OT and get a new O line coach.

Draft a QB with your first pick and continue to fill holes with draft or free agents. The offensive line is talented with Chukks, DeCastro, Dotson, Banner...but their OC and O line coach really let them down in the run game.

[Born2Steel]

Honestly, if Ben retires there is $19 million in cap found. There may be a way to spread some of that to Big Al at LT, who is only 32 years old and can likely play 3 more seasons. Guard is fine with Dotson and DeCastro(who can be a candidate to extend his current deal past the 2022 expiry) and Okorafor is likely in the longer term plan as well as Banner if they offer him a deal while rehabbing. I will assume that Pouncey retires, when Ben does.

The other option is to let AV go in free agency and then roll with Chukks at LT. Steelers line from left to right of Chukks, Dotson, FA like David Andrews or Ted Karras at center, DeCastro, Banner are the starting O line. Draft a C/G, as well as another OT and get a new O line coach.

Draft a QB with your first pick and continue to fill holes with draft or free agents. The offensive line is talented with Chukks, DeCastro, Dotson, Banner...but their OC and O line coach really let them down in the run game.

How many times during the game broadcast did you see them break down how the Browns' OL was playing? Highlighting pulls and pass offs and picking up blitzers, etc? How many times all season did that happen with the Steelers' OL? Whether coaching or talent level, it needs fixed.
On the topic of "next QB" though, I don't think this will be a draft priority either way. I still see top priority on the OL and DB rooms.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

How many times during the game broadcast did you see them break down how the Browns' OL was playing? Highlighting pulls and pass offs and picking up blitzers, etc? How many times all season did that happen with the Steelers' OL? Whether coaching or talent level, it needs fixed.
On the topic of "next QB" though, I don't think this will be a draft priority either way. I still see top priority on the OL and DB rooms.

How many copies of "Anthony Munoz, complete O line" videos(OK, they are VHS) do you have in your office? "Building the block" by LaCharles Bentley? "Complete Offensive Line" by Rick Trickett?? How many football coaching clinics have you been to discussing skills, techniques, inside/outside zone blocking or power man blocking techniques?

I saw the game, I know what happened, I know the Steelers have good O line talent in the room and even if they lose AV, Feiler, Pouncey they can instantly replace them with Dotson, Chukks/Banner and a free agent Center or draft pick. It cannot fix itself and if the OC and/or O line coach doesnt prioritize fixing it, it wont happen.

The act of not bringing back Randy Fichtner and/or Shaun Sarrett should be the start.

[Rotorhead]

I don’t think we draft a QB this year, better chance at a higher pick after next season, and using the draft to solidify the OL for said new QB draftee is a better idea. The best part of this is it won’t matter if Ben stays or not, either way we will have a bunch of cap space freed up in 2 years and a solid core of young team to lead the way.

[Born2Steel]

How many copies of "Anthony Munoz, complete O line" videos(OK, they are VHS) do you have in your office? "Building the block" by LaCharles Bentley? "Complete Offensive Line" by Rick Trickett?? How many football coaching clinics have you been to discussing skills, techniques, inside/outside zone blocking or power man blocking techniques?

I saw the game, I know what happened, I know the Steelers have good O line talent in the room and even if they lose AV, Feiler, Pouncey they can instantly replace them with Dotson, Chukks/Banner and a free agent Center or draft pick. It cannot fix itself and if the OC and/or O line coach doesnt prioritize fixing it, it wont happen.

The act of not bringing back Randy Fichtner and/or Shaun Sarrett should be the start.

Not saying there is not talent there goof nut. Saying "I believe" OL will be a bigger priority this draft than QB.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Not saying there is not talent there goof nut. Saying "I believe" OL will be a bigger priority this draft than QB.

First you imply that I either didn't watch or didn't see the O line play of either team...then your response is 5th grade name calling of "goof nut"?

You put the "ass" in "classless".

Paxton Lynch even thinks your "belief" is a joke.

[cubanstogie]

First you imply that I either didn't watch or didn't see the O line play of either team...then your response is 5th grade name calling of "goof nut"?

You put the "ass" in "classless".

Paxton Lynch even thinks your "belief" is a joke.
Lol, You really don’t like your opinions questioned do you. There’s got to be a diagnosis for that.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Lol, You really don’t like your opinions questioned do you. There’s got to be a diagnosis for that.

Nah, when people ask a question "for the sake of discussion" and then get snarky about the discussion...why bother asking the question?

Its not like I implied that the Steelers will take a course of action based upon the color of somebody's skin. Most of us know the diagnosis for that. :coffee:

[hawaiiansteeler]

You should throw Benny Snell in the deal too. He's a bell cow back. :rofl:

does he have suddenness and glide?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

does he have suddenness and glide?

Not like some backs we know of. :wink02:

[Fire Goodell]

does he have suddenness and glide?

Claypool has supple thighs that's why he runs a sub 4.4

[cubanstogie]

Nah, when people ask a question "for the sake of discussion" and then get snarky about the discussion...why bother asking the question?

Its not like I implied that the Steelers will take a course of action based upon the color of somebody's skin. Most of us know the diagnosis for that. :coffee:
You’re kidding right. The Rooney rule is called that for a reason. Seriously, you must interview a black candidate when hiring. How degrading is that to black community. Most want interview based on merit not skin color. So yeah, I do think Steelers make decisions on skin color, unless their role was put in place as a facade. I thoroughly disagree with the rule and think Tomlin should have been hired without it , unfortunately it taints it for blacks getting hired IMO. Im not black so only have opinion, I would welcome other opinions not crap on them and name call.

[Steeler-in-west]

For the sake of this discussion let's say BR does retire. How much urgency does Colbert and co put on replacing/displacing Rudolph early in this draft? Over continuing the OL rebuild? Over keeping the DB room from dropping back to the level of just a couple years ago? Maybe, but I don't think so. Depending on Pouncey's decision, and how the FA OTs are handled, I think the 1st priority will be OL. My gut tells me the QB room will look very much the same as it did this season.

Agree with this. If Ben leaves (I think he comes back for one more year) Rudolph has earned the chance to compete for the starting Qb position next year, also Dobbs should be given a chance to show what he can do, bring in a veteran as insurance as well (in the 3 million range). The following year, with defense and OL pretty well set, see what you have at the QB position and seek a franchise QB in the draft if need be.

[hawaiiansteeler]

You’re kidding right. The Rooney rule is called that for a reason. Seriously, you must interview a black candidate when hiring. How degrading is that to black community. Most want interview based on merit not skin color. So yeah, I do think Steelers make decisions on skin color, unless their role was put in place as a facade. I thoroughly disagree with the rule and think Tomlin should have been hired without it , unfortunately it taints it for blacks getting hired IMO. Im not black so only have opinion, I would welcome other opinions not crap on them and name call.

actually, it has to be a minority candidate. he or she don't have to be black.

[cubanstogie]

actually, it has to be a minority candidate. he or she don't have to be black.
Either way judging people and applicants on who they are not what they look like should be the standard. Id bet Tomlin would agree.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Either way judging people and applicants on who they are not what they look like should be the standard. Id bet Tomlin would agree.

so you're all about equality and every person should be treated equal?

[teegre]

Lawrence, Wilson, Fields will be the top 3 draft picks IMO. Could honestly be a situation like the 2004 draft, with 3 solid QB's in the draft that could lead a franchise for a decade. McShay has Wilson ahead of Fields, so if Fields drops close to that, I would trade up for sure.

I am with you in that I am not sure of the arm strength of Trask and Jones will be worth taking early. I think Trey Lance and Jamie Newman start coming into the conversation at middle to bottom of the first.

We agree on 6/7 of those player assessments* ... which isn’t bad considering people rarely agree with anyone on everything.

*(we disagree about Fields)

[cubanstogie]

so you're all about equality and every person should be treated equal?
Im not all about anything. People should be judged on actions and merit including experience and track record. Not skin color or gender.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Im not all about anything. People should be judged on actions and merit including experience and track record. Not skin color or gender.

I agree 100%, unfortunately our world isn't quite there yet.

[teegre]

There are 7 QBs who could possibly get drafted in R1:
Lawrence
Wilson
Fields
Lance
Jones
Trask
Newman

If teams like the Jets, Lions, or Falcons select a QB, their current starters might be traded.

SUMMATION:
There is going to be a lot of new faces at the QB position around the league.

[86WARD]

If it’s not Ben, Rudolph and Dobson, it’s gonna be Rudolph, Dobson and Duck. Remember, this organization never makes drastic changes and always gives their guys a chance. They’ll probably wind up drafting OL or LB. it’s what they do,

[teegre]

OPTION 1 - Trading up:
R1: 740
R2: 350
R3: 155
Comp: 100
R4: 50


1090 R1 & R2 ... 14th overall pick (Vikings)
1245 R1, R2, R3 ... 11th overall (Giants)
1345 R1, R2, R3, Comp ... 9th overall (Broncos)
1400 R1, R2, R3, Comp, R4 ... 8th overall (Panthers)

The Lions (7), Panthers, and Broncos couid all take a QB. If we wanted to move ahead of them, we would need to get up to #6. We don’t have quite enough draft capital... then again, if the Eagles are willing, nothing is set in stone.

Option 2 - Trading back with Buffalo:
-swap R1 picks (we move back to 32)
-acquire R2 pick (we get an extra pick)
-swap R3 picks (we move back to 95)

*32: Jamie Newman, QB, Wake Forest
55: Pat Freiermuth, TE, Penn State
*64: Landon Dickerson, OC/OG, ‘Bama
*95: Chase Myers, OG/OC, Ohio State
R3 (comp): Michael Carter, RB, UNC
R4-R7: DT, CB, DT, CB

[Fire Goodell]

trade back for more picks, never seen it happen before even though it's talked about every year. Why not in 2021? :chuckle:

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

actually, it has to be a minority candidate. he or she don't have to be black.

Any mention of minorities getting fair treatment, given the history, triggers him into angry rants about blacks. :rant: But, its pretty much on brand.

A lot of Steeler fans didnt want DeShawn Watson in the draft. There was a hypothetical thread on one board that if he dropped to the Steelers, should they pick him. I think a lot of the negativity had to do with opinions such as that...not the fact he put up around 1000 passing yards in the 2 championship games against Alabama.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Any mention of minorities getting fair treatment, given the history, triggers him into angry rants about blacks. :rant: But, its pretty much on brand.

A lot of Steeler fans didnt want DeShawn Watson in the draft. There was a hypothetical thread on one board that if he dropped to the Steelers, should they pick him. I think a lot of the negativity had to do with opinions such as that...not the fact he put up around 1000 passing yards in the 2 championship games against Alabama. Most Steelers fans didn't want Watson cause Ben still look decent then. Quit trying to play the race card that Steeler fans are racist!!!!!!!!!!

[cubanstogie]

Any mention of minorities getting fair treatment, given the history, triggers him into angry rants about blacks. :rant: But, its pretty much on brand.

A lot of Steeler fans didnt want DeShawn Watson in the draft. There was a hypothetical thread on one board that if he dropped to the Steelers, should they pick him. I think a lot of the negativity had to do with opinions such as that...not the fact he put up around 1000 passing yards in the 2 championship games against Alabama.
Funny, I do recall saying Id take Lamar Jackson out of any qbs in his draft, and last year I wanted to take a gamble on jalen Hurts. Nice try though, painting those that don’t agree with you as racist in a passive aggressive way. Disagreeing with Rooney rule and affirmative action hardly a rant on blacks. Actually the opposite, I believe it’s detrimental to minorities. Who knows if Im right. I also believe transgenders should compete against the same sex as they were born, regardless of pronoun they wish to be called. Let me guess, now I'm a sexist in your self righteous opinion. Not that I give a shit what you think. I can see you live behind a facade.