Civil Discussion: Ben could be more efficient

[Psycho Ward 86]

Was talking about this in another thread, but it was for the Broncos game next week and I didn't want to go off topic so here goes:

Let's keep it civil. I'm not being a Ben hater, I simply think he could stand to be better. Hell if anything, I don't think it's all his fault. Based on the commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today it sounded like Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt. i love Ben and im forever grateful for what he's done for us so far but i think we all know Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now). picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.

some of you will argue "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game," but are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes? yes, im aware that Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games. however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?

i really do think Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.

p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season


thoughts?

[polamalubeast]

Before the week 14....

[fansince'76]

Yep, I agree we go for the home run ball a little too often, and said as much a couple of weeks ago. But the deep ones he hits are often beautiful.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Yep, I agree we go for the home run ball a little too often, and said as much a couple of weeks ago. But the deep ones he hits are often beautiful.

absolutely. nothing wrong with "settling" for heath or AB down the seam for 10-15 yards

[Craic]

I think Ben, as he gets older, is looking more like the old Brett Favre. That long ball is part of his repertoire and it'd probably hinder him quite a bit to take it away, or even have him focus on throwing shorter. I have no stats to back up my next statement, but I wonder . . . looking at games (and seasons) where Ben and the offense isn't as effective, how often had he been told to cut down the long-ball and hit the short or middle receivers. I know we always think of Go-Deep Arians, but he also absolutely loved the Bubble-screens (as Haley does). The two may have nothing to do with each other, but I thought I'd share the thought and see what others think.

[MrPgh]

To be fair, even if they weren't the best throws by Ben, his last two INTs (today against CIN and his second INT in SEA) should have been called back via penalties. Refs have been letting Steeler receivers get mugged lately.

[Count Steeler]

Cincinnati is one of the better defenses in the league and we still put up 26 points (sans the pick 6).

It kind of reminds me of the Blue Jays this year. Home run bombs all year long, but when you play good teams, you got to be able to hit the singles as well.

Sure it is fun to get the bombs, but you have to be able to keep the ball as long as possible, especially with our secondary. Of course a TD on every possession takes care of our inept secondary as well.

[Craic]

To be fair, even if they weren't the best throws by Ben, his last two INTs (today against CIN and his second INT in SEA) should have been called back via penalties. Refs have been letting Steeler receivers get mugged lately.

Naa, even if Bryant wasn't fouled on that play, he wasn't going to get the ball. It was too underthrown. So, whether there was a foul or not really doesn't change the fact that Ben threw a bad ball that play.

Of course, I think he only threw two bad balls all game, and one of them was out of anyone's reach. Not too shabby.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I think Ben, as he gets older, is looking more like the old Brett Favre. That long ball is part of his repertoire and it'd probably hinder him quite a bit to take it away, or even have him focus on throwing shorter. I have no stats to back up my next statement, but I wonder . . . looking at games (and seasons) where Ben and the offense isn't as effective, how often had he been told to cut down the long-ball and hit the short or middle receivers. I know we always think of Go-Deep Arians, but he also absolutely loved the Bubble-screens (as Haley does). The two may have nothing to do with each other, but I thought I'd share the thought and see what others think.

i agree with you to some degree. i think i should clarify that when i say that we could be more efficient, im talking about less throws 35+ yards downfield, and taking a shot 15+ yards downfield. thats still usually considered "deep" territory

[zulater]

The deep ball has been a huge weapon for this team. The fact the Steelers have shown a willingness to go deep on any down from any point on the field and have had more than token success with it opens the middle of the field, and underneath sideline routes. Ben mostly played a patient game and picked the Bengals apart underneath. Over 75% completions for the day seems fairly efficient to me? And on the one deep pass anyone with a brain should have noticed that A) it hit Martavis Bryant right in the hands in the end zone , and B) should have drawn an interference flag, clearly Martavis was arm barred before the ball got to him. On the interception again a flag could have been thrown. Martavis was rode away from the ball by one db while the other swooped in for the pick. Claiming Ben underthrew the ball or the pass was uncatchable I disagree. I think the ball was in the area and if Martavis isn't interfered with he could have adjusted to the ball at least to the point of playing db and knocking the ball away from the safety. Now unlike the earlier interference this no-call isn't automatic (unless it's the Patriots or Ravens who squawk and cry loud enough to get the late flag almost every time) so I can live with that. And the fact is on that particular possession we started at our own 20. If you tell me at the start of that drive that we're going to use 3 minutes of clock and then give the Bengals the ball back on their own 4 at the end of it I'm not terribly upset. Sometimes an interception is as good as a punt.

Anyway the standard of perfection that Ben is held to by some is absurd. Anyone watching Aaron Rodgers play lately? Not seeing any hiccoughs in his game? Tom Brady seems to be less than perfect as well quite a bit lately. Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are red hot lately, but a month ago neither was completing 60% of their passes.

Getting back to Ben and his supposed lack of efficiency, you take the deep ball out of our arsenal and you'll make our opponents very happy. They would love nothing more than to be able to concentrate on jamming down on our wideouts and tight ends. You really think Heath is getting 10 catches yesterday if the threat of the deep ball is removed from our arsenal in all but Hail Mary scenario's?

Oh well Ben's old. He wont be around too much longer. Maybe we can get another efficient guy like Neil O'Donnell in here soon, make the Ben bitchers happy.

[Psycho Ward 86]

The deep ball has been a huge weapon for this team. The fact the Steelers have shown a willingness to go deep on any down from any point on the field and have had more than token success with it opens the middle of the field, and underneath sideline routes. Ben mostly played a patient game and picked the Bengals apart underneath. Over 75% completions for the day seems fairly efficient to me? And on the one deep pass anyone with a brain should have noticed that A) it hit Martavis Bryant right in the hands in the end zone , and B) should have drawn an interference flag, clearly Martavis was arm barred before the ball got to him. On the interception again a flag could have been thrown. Martavis was rode away from the ball by one db while the other swooped in for the pick. Claiming Ben underthrew the ball or the pass was uncatchable I disagree. I think the ball was in the area and if Martavis isn't interfered with he could have adjusted to the ball at least to the point of playing db and knocking the ball away from the safety. Now unlike the earlier interference this no-call isn't automatic (unless it's the Patriots or Ravens who squawk and cry loud enough to get the late flag almost every time) so I can live with that. And the fact is on that particular possession we started at our own 20. If you tell me at the start of that drive that we're going to use 3 minutes of clock and then give the Bengals the ball back on their own 4 at the end of it I'm not terribly upset. Sometimes an interception is as good as a punt.

Anyway the standard of perfection that Ben is held to by some is absurd. Anyone watching Aaron Rodgers play lately? Not seeing any hiccoughs in his game? Tom Brady seems to be less than perfect as well quite a bit lately. Cam Newton and Russell Wilson are red hot lately, but a month ago neither was completing 60% of their passes.

Getting back to Ben and his supposed lack of efficiency, you take the deep ball out of our arsenal and you'll make our opponents very happy. They would love nothing more than to be able to concentrate on jamming down on our wideouts and tight ends. You really think Heath is getting 10 catches yesterday if the threat of the deep ball is removed from our arsenal in all but Hail Mary scenario's?

Oh well Ben's old. He wont be around too much longer. Maybe we can get another efficient guy like Neil O'Donnell in here soon, make the Ben bitchers happy.

wow. so much for civil. it is BECAUSE i think so highly of Ben that i made this thread. i think he is FULLY CAPABLE of even more than he's done thus far and simply want to see him ATTAIN IT. the fact that we are armed to the teeth with perhaps the most loaded offense in the NFL plus having a QB in his prime who is elite in his own right says to me that our QB ought to match or exceed every damn player at his position on paper and on film. every QB is going to have to live with some bad calls that go against them (i agree that Ben gets a shorter end of the stick to officiating than most, but im not going to whine about it). no QB attained greatness or failed to attain it because of officiating.

yeah you're right to some degree. Ben completed a high percentage of his passes and a decent YPA. He also didnt throw any TD's against a vulnerable defense missing 2 of its top 4 CB, a safety, a crippled CB, and a linebacker for much of the game. i think an elite QB like ben could have done better and i offer a critique because i think he's a great player capable of even more.

making someone bulletproof to any criticism seems a bit much to me. ill bitching about how much i long for the Big Ben days as much as anyone when he finally hangs it up

[zulater]

wow. so much for civil. it is BECAUSE i think so highly of Ben that i made this thread. i think he is FULLY CAPABLE of even more than he's done thus far and simply want to see him ATTAIN IT. the fact that we are armed to the teeth with perhaps the most loaded offense in the NFL plus having a QB in his prime who is elite in his own right says to me that our QB ought to match or exceed every damn player at his position on paper and on film. every QB is going to have to live with some bad calls that go against them (i agree that Ben gets a shorter end of the stick to officiating than most, but im not going to whine about it). no QB attained greatness or failed to attain it because of officiating.

yeah you're right to some degree. Ben completed a high percentage of his passes and a decent YPA. He also didnt throw any TD's against a vulnerable defense missing 2 of its top 4 CB, a safety, a crippled CB, and a linebacker for much of the game. i think an elite QB like ben could have done better and i offer a critique because i think he's a great player capable of even more.

making someone bulletproof to any criticism seems a bit much to me. ill bitching about how much i long for the Big Ben days as much as anyone when he finally hangs it up

I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like. But let me address this a bit. Ben didn't throw a td pass agasinst an injury depleted Bengal secondary you say. And I say so what? He converted 3rd downs, he kept the sticks moving. Anyway let's further examine Ben's "failures". First drive 3rd and 3 at the Bengals 20, completes a 19 yarder to AB to the Bengals 1. 80 yard drive, all but 6 yards accounted for by passing yards. But since Ben hands off from the 1 yard line he's a failure here because he didn't exploit the "depleted" Bengal secondary for a TD pass?

Our second possession starts at our own 10. Moves the ball deftly down the field to the Bengals 26, first and 10. Then AB gets called for an illegal crackback block. 15 yard penalty. So now we got first and 25 at the 41. Me. I thought Ben and the Steelers did a good job by gaining back 18 yards to get in make-able fg range. But you know, it's a depleted secondary, never mind the Bengals got pretty good pressure on the next few plays, Ben has to overcome 1st and 25 or he's a chump.

Then of course the next possession 2nd and 8 play from the Bengals 24, end zone pass to Martavis Bryant, couldn't throw a better pass, hits MB right in the hands. But of course the Bengals db is draped all over Martavis, has control of MB's left arm with one hand while the other is draped around the other tugging happily away at his (Bryant's) off shoulder. No call somehow? So on 3rd and 4 M.Johnson of the Bengals perfectly times the snap and comes off the edge untouched and sacks Ben for a loss of 5 and the Steelers settle for a fg. But of course as we all know, it's always Ben's fault when he gets sacked. Can we give credit to the other team's player for making a great play? Nope. Even though it wasn't a missed blitz on Ben's part, even though the sack occurred approx. 1.5 seconds from the snap ( so much for holding the ball too long) it's on Ben. The Steelers were forced to punt on the next possession after having moved the ball from their own 20 to just inside Bengal territory where it bogged down and the Steelers couldn't convert a 3rd and 4.

Now I don't know, but even with a few injuries I don't think the Bengals defense is exactly a toothless tiger. So in summary of the 4 first half possessions, 3 scores, should have been 17 points, but still was 13, this against a defense giving up on average 16 an entire game. One punt, but still moved the ball from deep in your own territory to where you could punt the Bengals to their own 2 yard line. Is that really a failure in a divisional road game? Bad first half by "Big Bum"? ( as one "clever" PPG reader always calls him in any article concerning the Steelers in ther comments section)

The second half is a different animal. As we know the defense scores a TD to go up 23-7, and then it seemed as though the Steelers offense didn't play with the same urgency. Which is often the case when teams extend out to a big lead. Really the only time in the second half where the offense played with any real urgency was on the possession after the Bengals scored a fg to close the gap to 23-10. The Steelers took the ball at their own 23 and moved the ball to the Bengals 14 before settling for a fg. But the big thing about this possession was they used up over 7 minutes of clock and answered fg for fg to retake a 16 lead. So to me even though the drive stalled in the red zone this was a successful drive. ( again I think you got to factor in quality of opponent to some extent here)

Anyway bottom line is we converted 8-14 third downs on the day, moved the ball well all day. Only punted twice, and never put our defense in a bind by giving the Bengals good starting field position.

So if you had Ben or AB or MB on your fantasy team yeah I get it, sucks for you today. But if you watch the game, assess Ben's play by how the game transpired, how he produced when it was essential, and see that performance as wanting, then I just don't think you're being reasonable or understand what's going on out there.

Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday?

[polamalubeast]

We can not just judge a QB only on the ratio of TD / INT.

Vick had 2 TD, 0 INT against the Ravens this year, but the offense(and Vick) was awful in this game.

Yesterday, the Steelers have not scored points in only 3 drives and they were great on 3rd down.

[tube517]

I think I'd rather have Ben playing like this now, with the OL/OL coach and yes, even Haley. Haley gives Ben more control over the offense than his Uncle Bruce and his "enemy", Whis

I'll admit I'd like to see Ben take the 1st down over the long bomb sometimes. Yet how many times do we complain "Oh, he was wide open down the field".

Should he clean some of those up? Sure.

[Craic]

I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like.

Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.

Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday?

No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

[Psycho Ward 86]

We can not just judge a QB only on the ratio of TD / INT.

Vick had 2 TD, 0 INT against the Ravens this year, but the offense(and Vick) was awful in this game.

Yesterday, the Steelers have not scored points in only 3 drives and they were great on 3rd down.

the implication on my posts were about more than just TD/INT ratios but also just efficiency across the board

- - - Updated - - -

I was a bit sardonic, but not uncivil. Regardless I knew Ben's game would be downgraded by some for lack of touchdown passes. And because we kicked more fg's than we would like. But let me address this a bit. Ben didn't throw a td pass agasinst an injury depleted Bengal secondary you say. And I say so what? He converted 3rd downs, he kept the sticks moving. Anyway let's further examine Ben's "failures". First drive 3rd and 3 at the Bengals 20, completes a 19 yarder to AB to the Bengals 1. 80 yard drive, all but 6 yards accounted for by passing yards. But since Ben hands off from the 1 yard line he's a failure here because he didn't exploit the "depleted" Bengal secondary for a TD pass?

Our second possession starts at our own 10. Moves the ball deftly down the field to the Bengals 26, first and 10. Then AB gets called for an illegal crackback block. 15 yard penalty. So now we got first and 25 at the 41. Me. I thought Ben and the Steelers did a good job by gaining back 18 yards to get in make-able fg range. But you know, it's a depleted secondary, never mind the Bengals got pretty good pressure on the next few plays, Ben has to overcome 1st and 25 or he's a chump.

Then of course the next possession 2nd and 8 play from the Bengals 24, end zone pass to Martavis Bryant, couldn't throw a better pass, hits MB right in the hands. But of course the Bengals db is draped all over Martavis, has control of MB's left arm with one hand while the other is draped around the other tugging happily away at his (Bryant's) off shoulder. No call somehow? So on 3rd and 4 M.Johnson of the Bengals perfectly times the snap and comes off the edge untouched and sacks Ben for a loss of 5 and the Steelers settle for a fg. But of course as we all know, it's always Ben's fault when he gets sacked. Can we give credit to the other team's player for making a great play? Nope. Even though it wasn't a missed blitz on Ben's part, even though the sack occurred approx. 1.5 seconds from the snap ( so much for holding the ball too long) it's on Ben. The Steelers were forced to punt on the next possession after having moved the ball from their own 20 to just inside Bengal territory where it bogged down and the Steelers couldn't convert a 3rd and 4.

Now I don't know, but even with a few injuries I don't think the Bengals defense is exactly a toothless tiger. So in summary of the 4 first half possessions, 3 scores, should have been 17 points, but still was 13, this against a defense giving up on average 16 an entire game. One punt, but still moved the ball from deep in your own territory to where you could punt the Bengals to their own 2 yard line. Is that really a failure in a divisional road game? Bad first half by "Big Bum"? ( as one "clever" PPG reader always calls him in any article concerning the Steelers in ther comments section)

The second half is a different animal. As we know the defense scores a TD to go up 23-7, and then it seemed as though the Steelers offense didn't play with the same urgency. Which is often the case when teams extend out to a big lead. Really the only time in the second half where the offense played with any real urgency was on the possession after the Bengals scored a fg to close the gap to 23-10. The Steelers took the ball at their own 23 and moved the ball to the Bengals 14 before settling for a fg. But the big thing about this possession was they used up over 7 minutes of clock and answered fg for fg to retake a 16 lead. So to me even though the drive stalled in the red zone this was a successful drive. ( again I think you got to factor in quality of opponent to some extent here)

Anyway bottom line is we converted 8-14 third downs on the day, moved the ball well all day. Only punted twice, and never put our defense in a bind by giving the Bengals good starting field position.

So if you had Ben or AB or MB on your fantasy team yeah I get it, sucks for you today. But if you watch the game, assess Ben's play by how the game transpired, how he produced when it was essential, and see that performance as wanting, then I just don't think you're being reasonable or understand what's going on out there.

Sorry not trying to be uncivil, but I just can't see how Ben was not good enough yesterday?

i addressed all of this already. every QB has to deal with these things. Ben was "good enough" yesterday for that particular win. Its not going to be enough against certain opponents when you have the 2nd to last ranked pass defense in the league, and Ben is absolutely talented enough to compensate for that.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

This.

[zulater]

Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, at least not from me. Ben's job is to get them into the endzone. I don't care if he does it through the air or hands off the ball. His job is to make sure the offense puts up points, and he did that.





No one is saying he wasn't "Good enough" yesterday. The point of the thread is Ben being "more efficient." All in all, I thought he had an average day, which is "good enough" at his skill level. But, then again, it felt like the entire team had an average game, except for our kicker, punter, Heath and DeAngelo. (and minus a few DBs).

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous.

[Craic]

The game's flow dictated offensive urgency. When it mattered most, the first 3 drives, Ben was sharp as a razor. A pointless crackback block, and an inexplicable non call on an obvious pass interference in the end zone were the primary reasons the Steelers didn't open a 17-0 or even 21-0 lead. There's a difference between reasons and excuses. And it's as simple as that. To project yesterdays performance as a negative or to think it wasn't good enough going forward is ridiculous.

Please show me where I said it was negative, or not good enough.

Oh, and calling a point ridiculous, especially when the poster didn't make the point in the first place, is more than sardonic. Of course, sardonic, meaning "Grimly mocking or cynical" isn't being civil, either.

[NCSteeler]

I love the deep ball, but I worry about being able to put together clock killing game winning drives. Sometimes you gotta make a 12 play 99 yard drive. I thought the game plan yesterday was great many time finding AB underneath , knowing they would be protecting the deep ball and opening the under neath routes in the middle. Gotta give Some credit to Haley and Ben

[Mojouw]

I think that the problem is we have not all agreed on a definition of "efficient" for the sake of this conversation. Some seem to take it as a quantifiable term that is connected to points scored and time of possession. Others have taken it as a more qualitative variable linked to an "eyeball test" of what the defense was willing to give the offense and what the offense attempted to take. Not going to make much headway arguing different things.

I think that we need to determine what we are debating. I see a decent number of complaints that go something like this: "If they would have just picked up the 1st down on 3rd and 5 or less, rather than going for the home-run; they could have kept the chains moving, drove down the field, increased time of possession, and gotten some points."

I counter with 2 things and I'm not sure what they mean:
1. How many more points would anyone like this team to score? When they have their starting QB they are burying teams under 30+ points per game. I mean, I guess we could set the bar at 50...
2. They are stomping teams in time of possession lately.

For some other context, Ben is completing a ludicrous 67% of his passes on the season on a comical 8.7 yards per attempt. Those are video game stats. I shudder to think what his #'s would be if had been healthy all season. 5000 yards? 40 touchdowns?

I guess I am not certain I understand what the problem is? Or what it is that folks want to be different? Less interceptions? Okay. But Ben has always been an interception heavy "elite" QB. Kind of cut from a Jim Kelly or Brett Favre mold. Going to make some amazing throws for big plays and toss in a handful of ridiculous ones as well. Can't get one without the other.

[Craic]

I love the deep ball, but I worry about being able to put together clock killing game winning drives. Sometimes you gotta make a 12 play 99 yard drive. I thought the game plan yesterday was great many time finding AB underneath , knowing they would be protecting the deep ball and opening the under neath routes in the middle. Gotta give Some credit to Haley and Ben

I don't remember the check-down count for passes yesterday, but it was pretty high as well. I think that accounted for our good TOP.

[zulater]

Please show me where I said it was negative, or not good enough.

Oh, and calling a point ridiculous, especially when the poster didn't make the point in the first place, is more than sardonic. Of course, sardonic, meaning "Grimly mocking or cynical" isn't being civil, either.

You seemed to be in agreement with the OP in that Ben needs to take it a higher level in the upcoming weeks. If I misunderstood that then sorry.(Looking back I disagree with the average day point).


As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, do you have to respect that? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy?

Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb. With leaves us with 6 more incompletions. I remember at least 3 or 4 intentional throwaways. (say 3 for the sake of argument)The play wasn't there, so Ben did the smart thing and lived to make another play. I can remember one unintentional throw away. That was on a third down attempt to AB where Ben was forced out of the pocket scrambled right and threw left of his back foot and sailed the ball. You can mark that one against him I suppose but how many qb's are completing throws across the field to the left when forced to scramble right? If he had someone else open I sure didn't see it. I do remember he threw behind Wheaton once, and he threw wide of MB once too. But on that play it looked as if there was a miscommunication between Ben and Bryant. But for the sake of argument we'll call that a poor pass by Ben. He also got sacked twice. Once the aforementioned play where the DE times the snap count perfect and comes in untouched,(personally I thought it was a miracle he didn't fumble that play) the other time a coverage sack as Ben appeared to have no one open. Guess he could have thrown the ball away? so we'll mark him down for that as well. Then of course there was the improv pitch to Heath where Ben miraculously avoided the sack and turned a minus play into a 2 yard gain. And then there was the one scramble for a first down by Ben.

So all told including sacks , scrambles, and the improv pitch that's 43 times they passed or meant to pass. And Ben did the right thing or as close to right as the play would allow on about 40 of them. Seems pretty efficient to me. Not sure what I'm missing here? You realize there are two teams on the field, and even back ups are professionals?

So if I got a little sardonic or uncivil, oh well.

I'm done on this thread except for direct responses to reasonable questions.

[Craic]

You seemed to be in agreement with the OP in that Ben needs to take it a higher level in the upcoming weeks. If I misunderstood that then sorry.(Looking back I disagree with the average day point).

No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.

As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, well? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy?

Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.

Here's the OPs argument:

Argument 1 : I simply think he could stand to be better.

(capitulation 1) [but] I don't think it's all his fault.

Argument 2. based on commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today: Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt.

Argument 3. Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now).

Conclusion 1. picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.


Anticipating Response 1. "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game,"

Countering Response: are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes?

CR Capitulation: Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games.

Counter Argument: however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?

Final conclusion: Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.

(capitulation 2) p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season

There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.

Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb.

Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.

. . .

Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.

[zulater]

No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.






Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.

Here's the OPs argument:



There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.




Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.

. . .

Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.

At worst Ben did as good as the play would allow 38 of 43 times on plays that were intended to be passes. Pretty amazing numbers if you ask me. Inefficient? Not hardly.

On the interception for the sake of argument I'll concede Ben made a poor decision and poor pass. ( but I still think there's an argument to be made that a defensive infraction occurred.

However on the end zone throw to Bryant I wont yield an inch and will unflinchingly tell you you're flat out wrong to suggest Ben wasn't superb on everything about that play. Start with the fact that it was a 2nd down play. So therefore the argument that you can't risk that on 3rd down goes right out the window. Second the defender had no play on the ball! That's why he chose to take out the receivers arms, both of them! Illegally! Legally defended the play's a touchdown! As is- properly called it's pass interference, first and goal at the one! It wasn't one of those well it was close you got to let them play type plays. The defender was beat!!!He had no play other than pass interference! I guarantee the db puts up little to nor argument if the play is called properly! The trade off of giving the Steelers first and goal at the one was worth the penalty of keeping the sure score off the board!

[Mojouw]

I think we are getting lost in the details of individual plays here. It seems that the original question that started this all is more of a process question than a nit-pick specific plays type of thing.

1. What are we defining as "efficient"? In other words, what is the goal for the offense and the quarterback specifically? Need to ensure those goals are not mutually exclusive (e.g. more big plays and increased time of possession).

2. How are we identifying "inefficient"? Any pass over 15 yards that isn't completed? Only passes that result in INT's? Or is a more qualitative assessment in order - something along the lines of "I may not be able to define it, but I know a low percentage inefficient passing play when I see one" type of benchmark?

3. Finally, how does the offense (throw out the games with Landry Jones and maybe discount Ben's first game back from injury) compare to other offenses that are regarded as worthy of emulation?

[zulater]

I know I said I was done, but I have to add this one thing. As per usual on the day after the game I go over to Profootballfocus and see what they had to say about the game. I find them useful and interesting but far from infallible. But anyway even before you get to this week's game analysis, on their home page they have a days index. On today's index they have the season to date top 10 qb's in the NFL for the 15 season.

3 guesses who's at top with a 99.9 grade. : (not sure what the highest attainable grade is in their system is?)

A few hints. It's not Tom Brady, he's 3rd at 95.2. Nope not Cam either. He's 5th at 85.8. OK hints are done. You got to guess, or you could simply go to their site and cheat, er I mean check for yourself.

Ok, now that I've introduced the impartial observer I will take my leave of the thread.

[polamalubeast]

The Steelers scored 176 points in the last 5 games and they had at least 450 yards of offense in four of its games and at least 30 points in every game.

Yes, sometimes turnovers are frustrating, but I can live with that when the offense produces like that for the rest of the time.

The efficiency and time of possession can be overrated sometimes.

[Dissolv]

My civil response:

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Ben isn't a weak area that needs improvement on this team. He is its strength. His stats are up, his mistakes are down, and I am not seeing at all what you are in the OP. Is the offense different than last year? Yes. We have better receivers. And they can all get the long ball. So the long ball is part of the game -- because we can. Flip the field, get TD's, and most importantly -- allow the defense to play from ahead to open up their playbook. It's the right thing for this team. Next year, even if we have the same guys back, it will be a slightly different team, so maybe we get different tweaks.

If you want to talk about where this team can improve, Ben is literally the last place to dig for more efficiency.


Dissolv

[plenewken]

I'll take a couple of deep pass INTs by Ben anyday if him and the whole offense continue to play the way they've played lately. Ben first series yesterday was just awesome.

[Craic]

At worst Ben did as good as the play would allow 38 of 43 times on plays that were intended to be passes. Pretty amazing numbers if you ask me. Inefficient? Not hardly.

On the interception for the sake of argument I'll concede Ben made a poor decision and poor pass. ( but I still think there's an argument to be made that a defensive infraction occurred.

However on the end zone throw to Bryant I wont yield an inch and will unflinchingly tell you you're flat out wrong to suggest Ben wasn't superb on everything about that play. Start with the fact that it was a 2nd down play. So therefore the argument that you can't risk that on 3rd down goes right out the window. Second the defender had no play on the ball! That's why he chose to take out the receivers arms, both of them! Illegally! Legally defended the play's a touchdown! As is- properly called it's pass interference, first and goal at the one! It wasn't one of those well it was close you got to let them play type plays. The defender was beat!!!He had no play other than pass interference! I guarantee the db puts up little to nor argument if the play is called properly! The trade off of giving the Steelers first and goal at the one was worth the penalty of keeping the sure score off the board!

Actually,

I was talking about the INT the whole time. (And yes, I'd also agree there was a DI, just that it didn't negate the fact that it wasn't a good pass).

As for 31 or whatever it was receptions, a lot of those were checkdowns. Now, in the large scheme, I'm more than happy with him throwing checkdowns when there's nothing down the field. I'm also not going to use checkdown passes to bolster what I think of his play, except him playing smart.

Again, at least for me, we're talking about a single element of Ben's game, which is the deep pass. I think he gambles a little too often. I also think it'd hurt his overall style if we tried to take that away from him. However, I would like to see him be a little more efficient in the deeper passes, or, at the very least, a little more discerning as to when to chuck it down the field.

Heck, I've even argued that I'm okay with the INT argued above, because I do agree with you and others that in that case, it really is like a punt. Better yet, a punt that pinned the other team deep in their own end. I'm just a little leery of seeing it happen on 3rd and 2 from our own 31 (a generalized down).