1) Daniel McCullers with a year under his belt and a full training camp /off seasonOriginally Posted by steelreserve
2) agreed 100%
3) who you going to line up to rush the passer cause we only have 1 returning OLB who took snaps in 2014
4) so we continue to watch The Human Turnstile Gilbert get Ben killed ?
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After doing a bit more looking, I'm starting to think that maybe we do need to address the NT position. I'm not sure I'm comfortable going another year with the anchor of our run defense being as weak as it is. McCullers has a lot of upside and I watched him manhandle centers like nobody's business, but does that mean he can take the big step? Don't know.
And, we do have young guys at Safety. It's time to see what they can do. Afterall, as others have said, our pass defense actually looked decent in the latter part of the season.
To your points:
1. McCullers is a solid "maybe," nothing else. Would be great if he turned out to be what we need, but NT has been SUCH a problem that I don't feel like waiting around for "maybe" is the answer.
3. Jones plus Moats or whoever can be the pass rushers. Shazier outside with Spence inside if we really can't find anyone. The problem is not the linebackers, it's the D-Line play. Put Lawrence Taylor and the Incredible Hulk rushing the passer behind our DL of the past few years, and they'll have a sub-par season. Put a couple even halfway decent LBs in there next to a good line and they'll look great. We spend all our premium picks on linebackers, without having the other parts in place to make them successful, then we wonder why they're not living up to their potential. It's like spending $5,000 on your car for rims and a sound system, and you still don't have an engine. It's not talent at the linebacker position that's our problem.
4. Yup, exactly that. We can't be perfect everywhere, and we have much more urgent needs than offensive line. The line was at least adequate for once, and it's a case where "good enough" will have to do. Gilbert and Beachum weren't what was losing us games; that was Troy, Mitchell, Ike, Cam Thomas, and Worilds. Fortunately we have a chance to replace most or all of that shit parade over the next few months, so I'd rather have good options in place than waste a high pick on an offensive tackle to replace a guy who, let's face it, isn't going anywhere. The most important thing we can do for the tackle position is whatever it takes to keep Munchak.
See you Space Cowboy ...
A rookie NT has only ever suceeded in this defense once - Casey Hampton. Unless the second coming of the "Big Snack" is available in the first round, it is not a pick that will help at all in 2015. McClendon played much better than he is given credit for in 2014. McCullers looks like an immovable object in the making. To my unpracticed eye, his play in much of the Wildcard game was outstanding. So for the NT spot to be better next season the options are to devote a round 1 pick to an "elite" DT prospect, or bank on the continued improvement of the McClendon/McCullers duo. In terms of resources, the cost-benefit favors standing pat at the nose.
There are two fundamental problems with the defense, lack of pass rush and atrocious safety play. At least one of those needs addressed in the draft. A pass rushing combination of Jones and Moats would likely be more anemic than the feeble pass rush the Steelers mustered this year. I can't think of a decent 3-4 defense w/out at least one credible outside pass rush threat. Oh. Wait. Yes I can. The 2014 Steelers. And it was awful. Shazier at 230 or so would look even worse on the edge than Worilds does.
The Steelers need to bring in 2-3 OLB'ers this off-season and anyone who is over 5'6" and claims to be able to cover NFL WRs.
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You got me there!
Yes, that's it. Keep drafting linebackers. You do realize that's how we got into this mess on defense in the first place, right?
Ignore the nose tackle because it doesn't pencil out in the immediate short-term the same season. Guess what, it's never going to pencil out the way you apparently want it to. So the choice is to keep putting it off, and then next season you're in the same exact position, only it will take ANOTHER year to get results. We've done this before also. It's why the defense doesn't work. I hope McCullers is the guy who changes things, I really do, but it's still a question mark. He's got a long way to go before he does what Casey Hampton did. And yes, judging by the before/after that's unfolded right in front of us for the past several years, it IS most certainly worth the Round 1 pick for an "elite" DT prospect. I don't know what more evidence we need.
The whole point of this is that a good NT, coupled with what Tuitt is shaping up to be, will make our LBs into a credible pass rush. Jones and Moats have looked uninspiring because they get little help from the line; it's all 1-on-1 blocking; the tackles are generally free to block our pass rushers straight up and there are no mismatches. You have linemen drawing double-teams or collapsing the pocket, and guys like Clark Haggans come up with 8 or 10 sacks. Our overall sack totals and ability to get pressure went off a cliff whether we were with a healthy Harrison and Woodley, without a healthy Harrison and Woodley, with Jones and Worilds or without Jones and Worilds - really no matter who we've put out there. The one common theme is that Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton were replaced with a collection of guys who didn't do shit, and everyone else behind them was worse off for it, which will continue to be the case as long as we keep putting the cart before the horse with all the damn linebacker picks.
We used to be known for "developing linebackers" and coming up with great pass rushers in the middle rounds - well, no, it wasn't just coincidence that those guys turned out to be good; they had Pro Bowl caliber linemen in front of them making their jobs easier. The reason we have to spend first-round picks now, and they still don't work out, is not the old worn-out bullshit: "Well, other teams play a 3-4 now, so there's a premium on the kind of players we want." Horsecrap. What happened is we ignored the key ingredient to making the pass rushers successful for over a decade, whiffed on a couple picks by trying to make up for lost time and forcing it, and here we are. It is not something I am eager to continue for another year voluntarily.
See you Space Cowboy ...
I couldn't disagree more. Heyward is about as good as you can hope for at one end. Tuitt appears to be on his way at the other. Between McLendon and McCullers there is no reason to expect anything less than above average from the NT spot.
I don't care who lines up in front of them, it could be 3 of the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, Jones and Moats have done nothing to demonstrate that they can be a consistent force rushing the passer off the edge.
For the record, Clark Haggans recorded more than 6.5 sacks once in his entire career (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...H/HaggCl20.htm) and that was playing with a good book-end OLB and a DL that was made up of the proper double team drawing linemen. The guy rushing the passer has to have some talent as well. No one under contract for 2015 has demonstrated that for the Steelers.
As for drafting LB'ers -- here goes this list since 2007 (when Timmons and Woodley went back to back):
2014 - Shazier in Round 1 and Zumalt in Round 6
2013 - Jones in Round 1 and Williams in Round 6
2012 - Spence in Round 3 (his injury drives the picks of Williams and Shazier)
2011 - Chris Carter in Round 5
2010 - Worilds in Round 2 and Sylvester in Round 5
2009 - None
2008- Davis in Round 3
So that is 7 linebackers with 2 in the first round. In that same span of time 8 WRs and 10 DBs were taken. Jones stinks, so we agree that was waste. Spence ripped up knee, so that can't really be held against anyone. Shazier, who knows. Worilds was over-drafted. Other than those three, and they sting, the rest were middle round dart throws. Not really the reason the next great __________ isn't on the roster.
I just think that DL is a relative position of strength right now. LB and DB are not. The limited draft resources need to go there.
3 of the 4 linebacker spots are already filled with first-round draft picks. I don't know what else you could possibly want at that position. Unless you want to get into the "Is it too early to call _____ a bust" debate with Jones. I don't know why we're all supposed to agree he sucks; he played something like 250 snaps all year and about 170 of them were in the first three weeks. They never got him back into the rotation after his injury because Harrison was playing well. They didn't lean on Shazier or Worilds either, because Spence and Moats were doing all right. We have a bunch of average to above-average players there, including one established star and one potential star. It's a position of strength on the team, and apart from the Harrison thing being up in the air, our main loss is one Bozo who underperformed for three and half out of the four years he was here anyway. We have free agency holes all the time and we find ways to fill them without always spending a high draft pick. Grab someone if the value is there in the middle rounds, I guess, but I would not go seeking out LB as an urgent priority.
As you said, and as probably everyone would agree, DB is our worst position by far, and if we do not do something about that, I will be very angry. That includes picking a linebacker before a DB under any circumstances.
I would not call McLendon above-average at NT; he does an admirable job for a guy who does not really fit the prototypical nose tackle type, I guess. But our defensive system does not call for an OK nose tackle. It needs an awesome nose tackle. The question is not whether McLendon is average or not - average won't work. If we're going to give McCullers another year to see if he pans out, I would at least like to see us bring in a veteran guy like, say, Pat Sims, who wouldn't cost a fortune but is built like a NT and you know he can shove people around, and you can probably depend on for solid play. I'm not against the idea of McCullers being our guy, but counting on that as the ONLY option makes me very nervous.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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We really need to bring in some competition for Brad Wingberger. This guy can hit some long punts but he will morph into Paul Ernster at the worst time.
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Leave Brad Winger alone.
He's never had a punt blocked!
what is the deal with the alleged problems at nose tackle? Mclendon has been playing at a high level. He cant help it if he was flanked by a god awful Cam Thomas for most of the season with an even more god awful run stopper in jason worilds. Theres a reason why the vast majority of big runs came from that side.
Look at the games where we got torched on the ground. In every single one of them, Steve Mclendon was either out or he was still being flanked by Cam Thomas. I don't think striking out or picking questionable players frequently at a position is a valid reason to stop drafting that position and/or stop drafting it so early. We just need to do a better job of drafting in that area.
Even if JJ pans out, we need something there via free agency and/or the draft. I would prefer free agency, and I saw an article on steelers depot with some great suggestions like jabaal sheard, kroy biermann, and Pernell Mcphee. Remember, he's the only one under contract.
It seems likely we get Arthur Moats and/or James Harrison back but that isnt for certain. Al Woods seemed like a sure cheap resigning and look what happened. Even if we do, where is the depth?
Hampton went what about 6 feet and 325 (of course Hampton played far north of this). McLendon is 6 feet 4 and 325. So body type seems about right.
Now, McLendon does seem to want to penetrate upfield, but that was something that Hampton did really well when he was younger as well.
McCullers is about the largest man to ever try and play NT -- so not going to draft a bigger body.
Honestly, most outside this board see McLendon as a pretty good NT. I don't see how a draft pick changes anything, even in a year or two - by then McCullers should be a force.
As to Jones, let's be honest - -he is over-matched in the NFL. He has one pass rush move that worked in the SEC and does not work in the NFL. Most Sundays he looks lost and runs around like a confused Golden Retriever puppy. If he has Worilds or Carter's college pedigree we would already be wanting him off the roster. But he did produce in college, so maybe there is hope.
In 2015 you have two starting caliber linebackers on the roster - Timmons and Shaz-penc-illiams. Moats can start, but is better inside than outside. The FA landscape is littered with guys no better than Worilds. So real improvement = a draft pick.
Maybe not before an impact CB, but a draft pick or picks nonetheless.
This. Also, Shaz-penc-williams had me rolling.
The size diversity between McCullers could really prove to be a pain for other teams preparing against us in the future. We saw first hand in that wild card game how dangerous they can be. I agree with Mojouw, that was a phenomenal game by McCullers. I thought Mclendon played arguably his best game as well
the problem with all this is ...
1) you are assuming spending another pick at NT will in fact be the answer when I see it as just as possible being a lateral move , a rookie in this def is difficult , IMO McCullers looked about as good as you could expect for any rookie ...
2) Jones is the only guy currently on the roster that is currently under contract in 2015 Moats may or may not sign , but Jones is still a question mark and as much as I like Moats did not see enough of him to put all my chips to the middle of the table on him being any better than what we had with Worilds this year ... and in ther 3-4 you must have a dominant pass rush from your OLB duo just as much as you need a solid NT to handle 2 men and still push the pocket a bit and cause some amount of disruption ... 1 without the other puts you no place better than where we stand today for me ...
so no we do not know for sure if McCullers is the guy , but we do know we have a big whole at OLB and we also have a big question mark at S and CB...
Shamarko first has to figure out how to be available before we can ever consider relying on him to be a player of true value
This. This is the most straightforward way of saying it.
Seriously, what is it that people don't like about McLendon? I mean he isn't Casey Hampton, but if that is the worst you can say about him.
As for the run game, McLendon was backed by crap safety play and inexperienced LBers in Shaz-penc-illiams (I'm using it until it sticks!). All those holes that used to be filled by Foote, Polamalu, Clark, etc -- not filled so much this year.
Replying not just to you, but to all the points above about McLendon/NT ... the reason why I don't think he's the answer just comes from his style of play and capabilities. Sure, he holds his own on the line, but if you look at what the real difference-making nose tackles do, that's not it. Watch guys like Casey Hampton circa 2005, or B.J. Raji in his early years, and it was like trying to block a bull. Like one of those cartoon fights where it's a dust cloud moving around with stars and curse-word dingbats flying our, and sometimes you see an arm or a head pop out. I don't see that with McLendon, just a guy playing defensive tackle. Efficient, but not disruptive. No, you can't quantify it, but the difference is there for sure, and it's not a positive one.
As for McCullers, while I remain hopeful, I just don't know. The one guy I keep coming back to is Gilbert Brown (the 370-pound DT from the Packers back in the 1990s). Is that what he's going to turn out like - an "anchor" more than a "disruptor?"
Yes, the "anchor" type of defensive tackle can be very useful and a very good player, but I think the 3-4, or at least the "pressure" 3-4, calls more for the latter. If that's what McCullers turns out to be, if we continue running the 3-4 with him and McLendon, we'd better have some frikk'n excellent defensive backs. Otherwise, it may be that they're both more suited to the 4-3 DT position in completely different ways, although apparently bringing up the idea of "4-3" around our coaching staff is worse than calling someone a motherfucker.
See you Space Cowboy ...
In his prime, which was fairly short, the "Gravedigger" was disruptive as all hell. He didn't post big sack or tackle #'s but he was far more than an anchor. If McCullers could have 3-5 years of Gilbert Brownness - -that would be awesome.
I can see the general point about McLendon vs Hampton, but I just disagree. I really don't think that McLendon's abilities at the point of attack are what is wrong with the run defense. I am willing to admit I may be totally, 100% wrong.
If we're talking about the run defense, and especially runs straight up the middle, I agree with you. McLendon does his job all right there. What he doesn't bring to the table (and Hampton did) is the ability to force two guys to back up while trying to block you, either collapsing the pocket or screwing up routes for delays and counters. THAT was the big disruptive factor that didn't show up in the stat sheet but made everybody else on the field much more effective, including against the pass.
One other thing that's been missing is Troy's wildcard ability, which also forced teams to scramble and adjust their blocking schemes to account for the possibility. Even when he didn't rush but just crept up to the line and scared them that he was going to, it was like having half an extra guy rushing the passer. Not as much or as consistent of a difference-makes as having an excellent nose tackle, but losing that definitely did not help.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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I think these are all fair statements, though I'm not sure about McLendon's run stopping ability. At least his tackle stats don't show it, and I'm afraid that's all I have to go on since I didn't focus on him this year, so I'll take your word for it.
But you bring up a different point. Basically, what you're saying is that our defense had two main points of disruption that everything else keyed from. If that is true, the ability to gain another player like Troy is little to none, and that means our defense needs to shift out of it's current philosophy to another one. I think Dick Lebeau has seen this and is in the process of doing that very thing. A year or two ago, we heard the O line saying that they were now expected to be more aggressive and go get sacks. That doesn't sound like just eating up blockers anymore, that sounds like a shift from the Zone-blitz scheme to a different kind of 3-4 defense. What that is, I have no idea. But with that said, if that's the way we're going, then maybe McClendon is a decent to good NT, and the offseason focus then has to shift from the Dline to the CBs and safeties.
well theres nothing mclendon can do about that. unless a superstar or two emerges on this defense, were going to have to aim to be great by having a plethora of pretty good, but not elite players on defense. and i think that will work just fine.
id rather that the sense of urgency for a NT be redirected at OLB (CB/S being bigger priorities overall). At nose tackle we have a pretty good one who we've seen play in extensive playing time and a very promising looking one. We have contingency plans there. JJ is the only OLB under contract and who knows if he'll be any good. Thats a scary thought because who knows if both the steelers and james harrison can agree that he needs to come back. And who knows if were able to hang onto arthur moats. and im most certainly not relying on zumwalt, a 6th round pick who mainly played ILB in college and didnt play at all this year.
As mentioned in point 6 above. The world population is over7 BILLION, There are only 32 punters in the NFL. Certainly we can find a better option living on this planet than Brad Wing.
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