Mike Tomlin Confirms Mason Rudolph Will Be Starting QB Once Cleared From Concussion

[86WARD]

Exactly. his "hot hand" was the one he used to hand off the football to James Conner mostly. The short swing pass to Conner and the late throw into a crowd for INT are the throws that stand out in my memory among a bunch of short throws.

I would say that Devin Bush, the defense and James Conner had the hot hands in the Charger game. Still, the most popular guy to fans is the undrafted underdog, even if he isn't the intelligent choice to start at QB this week.

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

[fansince'76]

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

The shelf life for QBs who run that much is typically pretty short...

[AtlantaDan]

BTW - speaking of the Steelers “run game”...Lamar Jackson - more rushing yards as an individual than Steelers have as a team.

Carry on...

Nine pass completions for 143 yards and fourteen rushes for 116 yards by a QB is an interesting stat line but how long can that go on?

There is a reason most running backs have difficulty getting long term contracts after their rookie deals - durability

Jackson is entertaining as hell to watch but he appears to know how sustainable being a running QB is - this quote from a few weeks ago

“I hate running,” Jackson said before a practice last month. “Only if I have to. But my job is to get the ball to the receivers, tight ends, running backs. If I have to run, I’ll do it. But I’d rather just sit back and pass it. I like throwing touchdowns instead of running them.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/10/s...on-ravens.html

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

The shelf life for QBs who run that much is typically pretty short...

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.

[AtlantaDan]

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.

On their weekly pick the lines podcast, Bill Simmons & Cousin Sal both agreed Jackson is a must watch QB - but with regard to a QB taking on tacklers Cousin Sal had a good line - "it is like watching someone play without a helmet"

[NCSteeler]

True, I am surprised that nobody has taken a good shot at Jackson yet. He was trying to break some tackles yesterday and I thought the 2nd guy in was gonna wrap up and tackle hard, but kind of went soft on him.

If the QB is running your defense in the ground that's exactly the cure most of the time. #1 wraps up #2 makes the big hit.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[Craic]

No one is arguing this. Cowher Willingly let O'Donnell go and thought Mike Tomczak was the answer going into the 1996 Season. Nothing more needs to be said.

That is exactly what you are arguing. He undervalued the position. If you state, "he can't be blamed because no one else valued it that way either," then he didn't undervalue the position. He was in the norm of for valuation.

[Edman]

That is exactly what you are arguing. He undervalued the position. If you state, "he can't be blamed because no one else valued it that way either," then he didn't undervalue the position. He was in the norm of for valuation.

He undervalued the position because that was the norm. He can be blamed for not valuing the position. He can’t be blamed for the thought process behind it. Joe Gibbs’ Redskins took home three titles without a “franchise guy”. The Cowboys Dynasty had the ultimate Game Manager at QB. The 85 Bears won with the less impressive Jim McMahon.

That was the norm back then. The QB was viewed as nothing more than a luxury position. It was nice to have a good QB, but it not viewed as a necessity. Yes, that cost the Cowher Steelers big time.

[Fire Goodell]

Hey they did go 10-6 with Mike Tomczak

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Hey they did go 10-6 with Mike Tomczak

Amazing since Mike had tiny Trump hands.

[Craic]

He undervalued the position because that was the norm. He can be blamed for not valuing the position. He can’t be blamed for the thought process behind it. Joe Gibbs’ Redskins took home three titles without a “franchise guy”. The Cowboys Dynasty had the ultimate Game Manager at QB. The 85 Bears won with the less impressive Jim McMahon.

That was the norm back then. The QB was viewed as nothing more than a luxury position. It was nice to have a good QB, but it not viewed as a necessity. Yes, that cost the Cowher Steelers big time.

If it was "the norm" then it by definition can not be undervalued because it is the coaches who set the value through play calling and offensive strategy. And, you're now moving the goal posts. No one talked about a "franchise guy." We talking about the importance placed on QBs. And, while I'd disagree with you that Aikman was a game manager, even you admit he is the "ultimate" game manager which moves him up into the top 30 percent or so of QBs. As for McMahon, you're in the wrong decade. Cowher took over in 92. So, you're list really doesn't make your argument. (Washington's QBs all hit hot streaks. Gibbs stayed with them because he knew it was important to have a good QB playing).

And I don't know anyone that thought having a good QB was a luxury position. And, I think the draft backs that up as over half the teams spent first round picks on QBs and three teams spent 2 first round picks (different years) on QBs. And of those other teams? They had QBs like Aikman, Cunningham, Boomer E. Kim Kelly. That means only a few teams either already have quality (not necessarily franchise, but quality) QBs heading into that decade. Free agency also hit in full and we saw a few of the good QBs get passed around when they hit free agency.

So no, it was already known that you needed a good QB.

[teegre]

Cowher’s philosophy was that instead of spending a ridiculous amount in your QB, you use that same money on three defenders. It almost worked.

In the salary cap era, teams were losing players left & right. The Steelers has a very solid core of defenders. If they had spent a ton of money on a franchise QB, they would have lost three defenders. Imagine the ‘95 squad without Kirkland, Steed, and Lake. Again, it almost worked.

Unfortunately, his QBs killed him in big games. In the playoffs, Kordell was full Kordell. And, we all remember Super Bowl XXX. If his QBs has simply “not turned the ball over”, Cowher wins at least one Lombardi in his first six seasons. Alas...

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Cowher’s philosophy was that instead of spending a ridiculous amount in your QB, you use that same money on three defenders. It almost worked.

In the salary cap era, teams were losing players left & right. The Steelers has a very solid core of defenders. ...

I cant believe that fans somehow blame Cowher for not investing big money on Neil O'Donnell?

The guy signed a 5 year $25 million contract with the Jets and was released 2 years into that contract because Vinny Testaverde was better. Fans act like Cowher didn't want a franchise QB, when the reality is that they just aren't on the street corner waiting to be signed to a contract. SMH

[Mojouw]

I will comment here, since there are now two threads that have generated a Cowher/Odonnell/Stewart retrospective.

Cowher's "franchise QB" problem and part of the problem for every franchise that didn't have one in that era, was that everyone wanted to play QB one way. An OC would install their system and the QB was expected to master it and little to any attempts were made to adapt the system to the QB being asked to run it.

What we see right now in the NFL and all over the college level, is offensive systems being designed around what specific QBs can and can't do.

Imagine if Stewart had had a system built specifically for him and that didn't ask him to do things he couldn't do? He would've been Lamar Jackson only in the 1990's. It would've been an ugly and herky-jerky offense, but it would've maximized his good points and done a better job of hiding his flaws.

[AtlantaDan]

Bouchette contends that after being the starter for over a month time to let Mason run the full offense rather than a the dumbed down avoid risks version (article paywalled)

[HollywoodSteel]

If it was "the norm" then it by definition can not be undervalued because it is the coaches who set the value through play calling and offensive strategy. And, you're now moving the goal posts. No one talked about a "franchise guy." We talking about the importance placed on QBs. And, while I'd disagree with you that Aikman was a game manager, even you admit he is the "ultimate" game manager which moves him up into the top 30 percent or so of QBs. As for McMahon, you're in the wrong decade. Cowher took over in 92. So, you're list really doesn't make your argument. (Washington's QBs all hit hot streaks. Gibbs stayed with them because he knew it was important to have a good QB playing).

And I don't know anyone that thought having a good QB was a luxury position. And, I think the draft backs that up as over half the teams spent first round picks on QBs and three teams spent 2 first round picks (different years) on QBs. And of those other teams? They had QBs like Aikman, Cunningham, Boomer E. Kim Kelly. That means only a few teams either already have quality (not necessarily franchise, but quality) QBs heading into that decade. Free agency also hit in full and we saw a few of the good QBs get passed around when they hit free agency.

So no, it was already known that you needed a good QB.

Okay, but at least part of your argument is just semantics.

If I say that human life was undervalued during WW1, I’m not wrong by definition, even if EVERYONE at the time undervalued human life. I obviously mean compared to today, or even compared to my own value system. Those are still grammatically correct uses of the term “undervalued.” As long as the context is clear, you understand what is meant by my use of the term.

I’m not going to argue your bigger point, that not every team DID “undervalue” the position.

But we can have these arguments and never reach a true consensus on Cowher. He was a good coach, but obviously not perfect. And he got very lucky that he was “persuaded” to draft Big Ben. That move is really what ended up cementing Cowher’s legacy as a “great” coach.

[Fire Goodell]

Yep take the training wheels off and get James Washington involved

[HollywoodSteel]

Bouchette contends that after being the starter for over a month time to let Mason run the full offense rather than a the dumbed down avoid risks version (article paywalled)

It’s hard to argue with him. If we claw out a few wins with conservative ball, does that really mean we have a shot at a playoff run? If not, what’s the point?

The only way we have a shot at real success this season is if Rudolph turns out to be a legit passing QB who can win a playoff game. And the only way to find that out is to let him try. If he tries and fails then we know that we never really had chance this year. I don’t care about having an 8-8 record over a 6-10 record, if getting those extra wins means never taking the cuffs off Rudolph. I want to know if Mason is the guy one way or the other.

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.

[AtlantaDan]

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.

I agree with wanting to see a real offense implemented, although my goal is more focused on the long term.

I want to know if Rudolph is a QB the Steelers think can help lead the team to a Lombardi after Ben retires, not whether the 2019 Steelers can beat sad sacks like the Bengals by running a just don’t lose the game offense.

If Mason cannot run a full playbook NFL offense better to find out now rather than hope he can learn after committing to him for the long term.

If it turns out to be so great - if not then the Steelers know to go in another direction after Ben. This franchise does not measure success by just making the playoffs and that unfortunately became the ceiling in week two. The goal is to assemble the roster to hopefully achieve for the seventh time the standard against which Steelers teams are measured.

[Mojouw]

It’s hard to argue with him. If we claw out a few wins with conservative ball, does that really mean we have a shot at a playoff run? If not, what’s the point?

The only way we have a shot at real success this season is if Rudolph turns out to be a legit passing QB who can win a playoff game. And the only way to find that out is to let him try. If he tries and fails then we know that we never really had chance this year. I don’t care about having an 8-8 record over a 6-10 record, if getting those extra wins means never taking the cuffs off Rudolph. I want to know if Mason is the guy one way or the other.

I want to know if we have a shot in the playoffs, not just scratch and claw and wildcat our way there.

I agree with wanting to see a real offense implemented, although my goal is more focused on the long term.

I want to know if Rudolph is a QB the Steelers think can help lead the team to a Lombardi after Ben retires, not whether the 2019 Steelers can beat sad sacks like the Bengals by running a just don’t lose the game offense.

If Mason cannot run a full playbook NFL offense better to find out now rather than hope he can learn after committing to him for the long term.

If it turns out to be so great - if not then the Steelers know to go in another direction after Ben. This franchise does not measure success by just making the playoffs and that unfortunately became the ceiling in week two. The goal is to assemble the roster to hopefully achieve for the seventh time the standard against which Steelers teams are measured.

i agree with you both. I don't need to see Rudolph do it this week or next, but there has to be progress each week. Much like Ben R's rookie year. Regardless of record and results, this needs to be a stern enough test that the team can determine whether or not Rudolph can run a legitimate offense or not.

[Edman]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

[Fire Goodell]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

True, honestly I think he's done quite well, and have no problem with his way of playing. He did show on numerous occasions that he's not afraid to go deep if the opportunity is there, but he won't force it. Fine by me, he's only thrown one INT that was his fault, but about 2 TD's a game.

If anything I want to see the OL step up and start opening running lanes. If we can run the football I'm confident that the passing game will follow.

[AtlantaDan]

In San Francisco you could argue that the training wheels were placed on Rudolph. I don’t know about now. Sooner or later the QB has to step up and start making the path for himself.

Somewhere along the way we have to learn that Mason Rudolph is risk-adverse and not a gunslinger. He is not fly-by-your-pants like Big Ben. He is very patient and is satisfied taking what the Defense gives him and picking them apart down the field. If the deep shot is there, he’ll take it. He’s done it. Quite a few times.

The only people I see that may have a problem with Mason’s game are Fantasy football buffs.

We do not yet know what Mason’s NFL game is, unless the long term offense for him includes passes from Samuels out of the wildcat inside their own 20 and the wildcat on second and 1 inside the opponent’s 10.

Mason is smart enough to spout the company line that it’s all good but the Bouchette article has quotes from AV (who has the gift of being both articulate & candid) and Foster that it is time to run the full offense, particularly the no huddle.

[Edman]

We do not yet know what Mason’s NFL game is, unless the long term offense for him includes passes from Samuels out of the wildcat inside their own 20 and the wildcat on second and 1 inside the opponent’s 10.

Mason is smart enough to spout the company line that it’s all good but the Bouchette article has quotes from AV (who has the gift of being both articulate & candid) and Foster that it is time to run the full offense, particularly the no huddle.

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?

More No-Huddle isn't going to magically turn Mason into Ben. He'll just start throwing more short passes only at a much higher rate and frequency. AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless. Don't forget that the Offense previously whined about the Defense getting too physical with them during practice before the Chargers game.

This is why the Steelers are 3-5 in the playoffs this decade and haven't won a playoff game in two years. They are too wrapped up in their own image and press clippings that they became soft.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?

More No-Huddle isn't going to magically turn Mason into Ben. He'll just start throwing more short passes only at a much higher rate and frequency. AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless. Don't forget that the Offense previously whined about the Defense getting too physical with them during practice before the Chargers game.

This is why the Steelers are 3-5 in the playoffs this decade and haven't won a playoff game in two years. They are too wrapped up in their own image and press clippings that they became soft.

I agree. Not sure that I have ever seen a case in the NFL where the OC decides the best thing for his inexperienced QB to start doing is running no huddle in the middle of games.

[AtlantaDan]

What does the No-Huddle and Wildcat have to do with Mason's style and decision making?

I agree. Not sure that I have ever seen a case in the NFL where the OC decides the best thing for his inexperienced QB to start doing is running no huddle in the middle of games.

My point was we do not yet know whether Rudolph might be a likely successor to Ben because for whatever reason Fichtner has not yet trusted him to run a NFL style offense (not certain many top tier major college programs are running what the Steelers have run the past few games) and we do not yet have a clue if he is capable of doing so or how he will perform when given the opportunity.

With regard to other first year starters this season, for better or worse the Giants and Cardinals do not have the handcuffs on Daniel Jones (who stepped in for another class of 2004 QB after the season started) and Kyler Murray like the Steelers do on Rudolph.

The only time I recall the Steelers running wildcat in the last 10 years before the Bengals and Ravens games was the 2015 Chargers game when Vick obviously could no longer play. ( Has any other team run one wildcat play this season? ) If the coaches already have concluded the available QB skill sets now are where they were at when Ben was injured in early 2015 Rudolph should rent and not own his house in Pittsburgh.

So with a month having elapsed since Rudolph became the starter, maybe it is time to start finding out what he can do since the goal this season presumably is more than trying to preserve Tomlin's non-losing seasons streak.

AV and Foster need to worry more about not getting pushed around up front by Defensive Linemen than worrying about what Offense the team should be running. If it were Ben talking, sure, but Foster and AV have accomplished nothing of note. They are ringless.

Good to know that the only offensive linemen who have meritorious views have won Lombardis.

FWIW here is what AV and Foster said. Maybe it is blowing smoke to pump up the new QB, but they think Rudolph is capable of more than he has been asked to do so far.

“I’m ready for it,’’ guard Ramon Foster said. “I miss the no-huddle. That was our bread and butter, that was our baby. You get defenses in predictable fronts, get them doing what you want them to, gas them. As long as you’re converting, it works. I looooove the no-huddle. I can’t stress that enough. If there’s any time to do it, I would think it would be now.”...

“I feel he’s able to do everything and, you know what? We’re going to need him to do everything,” tackle Alejandro Villanueva said. “Tempo is one of the things that hurts defenses and makes everything a lot easier for quarterbacks. Usually they stay in the same defenses and quarterbacks can make reads a little bit easier. It’s harder for the defenses really to synthesize the formations we’re in.”

And as far as your breakdown of his career concluding Rudolph's nature is to be a dump 'em off QB, more from Bouchette

The Steelers play the next three in Heinz Field and there’s no place like home before the friendly crowd to run the no-huddle because of the communications and precision that are necessary to do so. Rudolph ran the no-huddle his entire college career at Oklahoma State, playing what coach Mike Gundy there called basketball on grass. The no-huddle is Rudolph’s baby, too. He passed for 4,904 yards in 13 games as a senior in 2017, which led the nation. His 37 touchdown passes tied for fourth vs. just nine interceptions. College passer ratings differ from the NFL but his 170.6 in 2017 ranked third in the country.

https://theathletic.com/1314247/2019...rgers-offense/

But maybe the answer is keep it simple, hope to go a respectable 7-9, and not have a clue whether Rudolph can handle a full playbook after Ben comes back to hopefully play the full 2020 season. At that point the Steelers still may not know what Rudolph can do as he enters the last year of his rookie deal in 2021 and will have the option to walk after 2021 if he is not signed before that seasons starts

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

AtlantaDan, sure OSU and Gundy ran a no huddle, but I think NFL defenses are disguising coverages better than teams in the big 12. I'm all for opening the playbook for Rudolph, I was all for it in the SF game, the Bengals game and this week. I just don't think jumping to no huddle from having training wheels on with the Wildcat is the best progression. Then again, Fichtner is an offensive genius, so lets just trust him.

[Born2Steel]

Duck wasn't actually the hot hand, though. The gameplan was extremely limited to minimize his exposure. Rudolph is the starter and Duck is the backup until/ unless Rudolph proves he isn't up to the task.

I have no desire to debate what a "hot hand" is or isn't. I used the words "hot hand" for Duck who was the 3rd/4th string QB who started his 1st NFL game on the west coast and got a victory. He definitely had help from the rest of the team but "hot hand" goes with him actually winning a game. Also along with "help from the rest of the team" I mean is there something about 'Cool Hand Duck' that made the team play as well as they did? I mean even Moncrief caught a pass. The defense really stepped up their game in L.A. as well. I thought I clearly stated I think Rudolph is the "better" QB. Just asking the question does the team play better with Duck. Sorry for the confusion.

[AtlantaDan]

AtlantaDan, sure OSU and Gundy ran a no huddle, but I think NFL defenses are disguising coverages better than teams in the big 12. I'm all for opening the playbook for Rudolph, I was all for it in the SF game, the Bengals game and this week. I just don't think jumping to no huddle from having training wheels on with the Wildcat is the best progression. Then again, Fichtner is an offensive genius, so lets just trust him.

I agree it is not the Big 12 where defenses are either shellshocked or incompetent. But other Big 12 QBs like Murray and Mayfield came in and started slinging in their rookie years (Mahomes of course sat for a year until he showed his stuff in the last game of the 2017 season).

If they are going to try no huddle seems to me this next game against the Dolphins is the one to do it before they play the big boy Colts and Rams defenses.

I was surprised Foster and AV were so explicit about the need to raise the level of what is being run on offense in the Bouchette article. Fichtner may be getting an earful from the OL on what he is calling.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I agree it is not the Big 12 where defenses are either shellshocked or incompetent. But other Big 12 QBs like Murray and Mayfield came in and started slinging in their rookie years (Mahomes of course sat for a year until he showed his stuff in the last game of the 2017 season).

If they are going to try no huddle seems to me this next game against the Dolphins is the one to do it before they play the big boy Colts and Rams defenses.

I was surprised Foster and AV were so explicit about the need to raise the level of what is being run on offense in the Bouchette article. Fichtner may be getting an earful from the OL on what he is calling.

Could be a situation where the guys up front have faith in Rudolph and want to goto battle with him, but Caddyshack Fichtner is handcuffing the offense.

As for your comparisons with Mahomes, Mayfield, Murray.....could it be that Andy Reid, Freddie Kitchens and Cliff Kingsbury are better OC's than Fichtner? Maybe have a better rapport with those QB's than Mason does with Ben's caddy?