Artie Burns is not happy with new NFL National Anthem policy

[steelreserve]

I guess it is good that we have virtuous folks like yourself to cut through the miasma of toxic bullshit and show anyone who disagrees with you how they have been misguided, manipulated, and misled by their own inferior intellect's to a series of false liberally biased conclusions that are causing an erosion of America.

I mean there can clearly be zero chance that the underlying statistics fail to account for existing factors that are placing both minority populations and police forces into confrontational "no-win" situations. I mean, hey as long as it is a statistically acceptable number of deaths, why worry about how or why they are happening? And on top of that, if anyone dares to attempt to shine some light on the situation, let us all be sure to quickly mobilize to de-legitimize their arguments, their character, and their right to speak. We should also be sure to explain to them the "correct" ways and venues they can use for exercising their free speech.

Because it is possible to excuse any number of deaths and other bad things as long as they are not affecting you or people you care about. Plus the people it does affect are likely "bad" people anyways...So why have a conversation about it? It is far easier to make the assumption that everyone wants to just blame the police, look for handouts for their favored group, and whatever other cliched "what-about" roadblocks to discussion are traditional levered into place.

Meanwhile, if you actually listen to what people are saying, they just want to have a discussion about violence, race, economics, education, policing, incarceration, crime, and other things that are impacting their communities. Few are attempting to apply universal blame to any group or institution and are open to a variety of solutions to what are perceived as critical problems. But instead of attempting to open a rationale and empathetic dialogue with people, they are getting shouted down and told to stay in their lane and STFU because it isn't really that bad.

That is just really really sad.

The correct answer is not always the popular one.

[Mojouw]

The correct answer is not always the popular one.

Right. And you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not correct and is and is not popular based on what?

I mean that is the dictionary definition of privilege and a totally intellectually rigid and reductive response to complexity.

But my whole point is that everyone should have an opinion and that opinion should be taken seriously.

So I recognize that you have put a significant amount of thought and consideration into your position and I do respect and appreciate that. We are never going to agree on these types of issues and that is not a bad thing. The only thing that I take a serious issue with is the mobilization of some facts and opinions to attempt to silence the facts and opinions of others.

[tom444]

Mojouw is one articulate SOB.

[steelreserve]

Right. And you get to be the arbiter of what is and is not correct and is and is not popular based on what?

I mean that is the dictionary definition of privilege and a totally intellectually rigid and reductive response to complexity.

But my whole point is that everyone should have an opinion and that opinion should be taken seriously.

So I recognize that you have put a significant amount of thought and consideration into your position and I do respect and appreciate that. We are never going to agree on these types of issues and that is not a bad thing. The only thing that I take a serious issue with is the mobilization of some facts and opinions to attempt to silence the facts and opinions of others.

"Privilege" is a word tossed around to mean roughly, "I don't like what you are saying, but I don't have very much that's constructive to say myself, so instead I will just dismiss it by labeling you as unfit to hold an opinion." Or basically the direct opposite of what you went on to say in your very next next paragraph, so no offense taken.

It is not so much about me being the arbiter about what is right and wrong ... so much as that the way that this debate always goes (whether micro in this thread or macro in the world), is saying, "Here is the evidence and a rational explanation of what that means," and the usual response is "Oh yeah? So what, I'm MAD! You don't get to have facts!" Well, ok, that's no way to get anywhere.

Really, there is not a single thing I said in the last post that is incorrect, as long as all we're talking about is police and crime statistics. And I don't know how using facts to argue your point qualifies as trying to "silence" anyone - another one of those little double-standard keywords that makes me wonder whether the person is as open to all opinions as they claim, or merely thinks s/he is the only one who should be allowed to speak.

Are there - as you say - many far more complex issues underlying the one being talked about here? Of course there are. I tried to go into those (with mixed success) earlier in the thread, and admittedly there's a lot in there that's open for debate, that really IS subjective, or that I just don't have the answers to. However, many who take up the side of the BLM/anthem protesters try to reduce it to "nuhhhhh, racist police!" "durrrrr, white people!" Well, no, that's pretty easily debunked and I am not going to apologize for saying I'm right and they're wrong.

The dozens if not hundreds of underlying issues are a much less black-and-white, much more sophisticated, and dare I say a much more useful topic for discussion - but most of these knuckleheads don't really seem interested in talking about that.

[silver & black]

All cops across the country should just turn in their badges for a week, and let the "people" fend for themselves. I wonder how that would turn out? After all.... cops just shoot people for fun. They aren't necessary at all. They just cause all the problems.

None of you would do their job. You would be scared shitless out there... just like they are. Dealing with scum, animals, sexual predators, gang bangers.... the worst society has to offer on a daily basis...... yea, I wonder why some of them shoot first and deal with what comes along after??? Oh, yea..... they would like to go home after their shift is over and see their wives and kids.

It's easy to yell racism, police brutality, it's unjustified..... whatever else you'd like to yell, but YOU aren't out there in the shit every day dealing with the animals.

Go ahead and say what you will to me. I have good friends that are cops.... I hear the stories all the time......... but I'm sure they are lying to me.

I'm out of this.... no matter what anyone responds with, because I like it here and most of the people here.

[Mojouw]

"Privilege" is a word tossed around to mean roughly, "I don't like what you are saying, but I don't have very much that's constructive to say myself, so instead I will just dismiss it by labeling you as unfit to hold an opinion." Or basically the direct opposite of what you went on to say in your very next next paragraph, so no offense taken.

It is not so much about me being the arbiter about what is right and wrong ... so much as that the way that this debate always goes (whether micro in this thread or macro in the world), is saying, "Here is the evidence and a rational explanation of what that means," and the usual response is "Oh yeah? So what, I'm MAD! You don't get to have facts!" Well, ok, that's no way to get anywhere.

Really, there is not a single thing I said in the last post that is incorrect, as long as all we're talking about is police and crime statistics. And I don't know how using facts to argue your point qualifies as trying to "silence" anyone - another one of those little double-standard keywords that makes me wonder whether the person is as open to all opinions as they claim, or merely thinks s/he is the only one who should be allowed to speak.

Are there - as you say - many far more complex issues underlying the one being talked about here? Of course there are. I tried to go into those (with mixed success) earlier in the thread, and admittedly there's a lot in there that's open for debate, that really IS subjective, or that I just don't have the answers to. However, many who take up the side of the BLM/anthem protesters try to reduce it to "nuhhhhh, racist police!" "durrrrr, white people!" Well, no, that's pretty easily debunked and I am not going to apologize for saying I'm right and they're wrong.

The dozens if not hundreds of underlying issues are a much less black-and-white, much more sophisticated, and dare I say a much more useful topic for discussion - but most of these knuckleheads don't really seem interested in talking about that.

The portions in bold are basically the exact definition of trying to "silence" the voices of those that you disagree with. It reduces complex arguments and motivations down to easily dismissed cliches and consists mostly of ad hominen attacks against an imagined or perceived "typical" member of the opposing viewpoint that often has little to no basis in reality.

You are clearly one of the most thoughtful and intelligent folks that post on this board. Consistently bring valuable insights and perspectives to the table, but you're being incredibly willfully ignorant on this issue. I have a hard time believing that someone who takes the time to research facts/figures and read through the associated articles they are pulled from can honestly believe that protestors are simply arguing that "police are racist, white people are dumb, and football players are good". That's the route that people in charge that definitively want the status quo maintained want you to take. It allows for the blithe dismissal of considerable social problems and the ability to grumpily ignore protestors as poorly informed politically motivated individuals not worthy of attention. That's the suckers bet. No one is asking for you, or anyone else to agree with the protestors, the vehicles they have chosen to communicate their message, or their proposed solutions. All I am stubbornly digging my heels in on is the idea that they and others, should be honestly and carefully listened to. Their claims and concerns acknowledged and incorporated into the ongoing national political/social discourse.

Take it along the lines of this analogy:

I'm a left side of the spectrum kinda guy. Totally shocking, I know. During the last several local, state, and national election cycles candidates I find totally unacceptable have either ran unexpectedly strong campaigns or won the election. I could respond by just assuming that a bunch of under-informed mouth-breathing morons that can barely read, hate women, gays, liberals, and minorities supported a series of candidates that make me want to throw up in mouth.

OR

I can take some time and read up on the issues and reasons that people have outlined their support for candidates that I disagree with. I can come to understand that (at least in my state) folks in rural communities feel that politicians in general and the left most specifically have shifted focus onto social and political issues that play no role in their lives. They see their communities losing jobs while young people leave to pursue education or economic opportunities to never return - thus further impoverishing the community. They see hard-work not paying off at all while it seems like other groups are getting more for far less work. It offends their sense of pride, responsibility, and work ethic. They feel that no one is bringing their concerns to the fore, let alone actually working to solve them. Add in the feeling that everyone outside their communities in universities, entertainment, politics, etc. is telling them that their values and beliefs are out of step with the modern world and no longer appropriate, well you pretty quickly get a bunch of extremely pissed off people that are motivated to vote for a candidate that expresses their concerns.

I'm not trying to break my arm patting myself on the back. I attempt to always go the second route, but I far too often go the first route. And even when I go the second route, I don't agree with the solutions and perspectives of people -- but at least I try my best to not simply write them off.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

All cops across the country should just turn in their badges for a week, and let the "people" fend for themselves. I wonder how that would turn out? After all.... cops just shoot people for fun. They aren't necessary at all. They just cause all the problems.

None of you would do their job. You would be scared shitless out there... just like they are. Dealing with scum, animals, sexual predators, gang bangers.... the worst society has to offer on a daily basis...... yea, I wonder why some of them shoot first and deal with what comes along after??? Oh, yea..... they would like to go home after their shift is over and see their wives and kids.

It's easy to yell racism, police brutality, it's unjustified..... whatever else you'd like to yell, but YOU aren't out there in the shit every day dealing with the animals.

Go ahead and say what you will to me. I have good friends that are cops.... I hear the stories all the time......... but I'm sure they are lying to me.

I'm out of this.... no matter what anyone responds with, because I like it here and most of the people here.

I too have friends that are police. Three cops were in my wedding party and I know of what they do well and who they deal with. None of them has shot first and dealt with things later, one of my best friends was very close to shooting somebody in the line of duty and he was perfectly ready to do it and go home to his family. But he de-escalated the situation and arrested the subject. Yes, I have had a beer with them while they compare notes on the sickest murders they have been involved with (the one with a circulating saw was probably the worst), so I have heard it all too.

The notion of "none of you would do their job" , doesn't make any valid point as to justify police brutality and police shooting of unarmed citizens.

If your cop friends condone shooting unarmed human beings, rather than doing their job as police and not executioners, that is up to them, but they are just cowards hiding behind a badge then and likely should have had better training or moral upbringing. I know that my friends and relatives who wear and wore the badge didn't police that way.

[Mojouw]

All cops across the country should just turn in their badges for a week, and let the "people" fend for themselves. I wonder how that would turn out? After all.... cops just shoot people for fun. They aren't necessary at all. They just cause all the problems.

None of you would do their job. You would be scared shitless out there... just like they are. Dealing with scum, animals, sexual predators, gang bangers.... the worst society has to offer on a daily basis...... yea, I wonder why some of them shoot first and deal with what comes along after??? Oh, yea..... they would like to go home after their shift is over and see their wives and kids.

It's easy to yell racism, police brutality, it's unjustified..... whatever else you'd like to yell, but YOU aren't out there in the shit every day dealing with the animals.

Go ahead and say what you will to me. I have good friends that are cops.... I hear the stories all the time......... but I'm sure they are lying to me.

I'm out of this.... no matter what anyone responds with, because I like it here and most of the people here.

Well that is a bit of an extreme over-reaction to anything that was said by anyone ever.

[tom444]

I too have friends that are police. Three cops were in my wedding party and I know of what they do well and who they deal with. None of them has shot first and dealt with things later, one of my best friends was very close to shooting somebody in the line of duty and he was perfectly ready to do it and go home to his family. >>>But he de-escalated the situation and arrested the subject.<<< Yes, I have had a beer with them while they compare notes on the sickest murders they have been involved with (the one with a circulating saw was probably the worst), so I have heard it all too.

The notion of "none of you would do their job" , doesn't make any valid point as to justify police brutality and police shooting of unarmed citizens.

If your cop friends condone shooting unarmed human beings, rather than doing their job as police and not executioners, that is up to them, but they are just cowards hiding behind a badge then and likely should have had better training or moral upbringing. I know that my friends and relatives who wear and wore the badge didn't police that way.

Good for him. Now that's a professional.

[Craic]

If you read any reporting on that case, it is universally regarded as boiling down to the following facts:

1. The victim made a fatal error in reaching behind his back to pull up his shorts. He was shot for making that mistake.
2. There were 6 police officers on the scene. Everything that led up to the shooting was confrontational, confusing, and often impossible to comply with (try crawling forward with your hands up while drunk and scared).
3. The shot came from an officer that was not the one yelling the instructions.

All final analysis I have read from a variety of perspectives indicates that maybe you can justify the cops shooting the guy when he went behind his back, but every single instance of the encounter prior to that was an example of poor policing, incorrect communication, and just creating a situation ripe for tragedy.

Perhaps, except, the video was presented as an example of bad policing based on what was in the video itself. On that note, he is wrong. I can't and won't speak to what happened before as I do not know. But taking the video out of context and looking at it as a whole within itself, if that was the only context, the cop was right in shooting because the cop does not know whether the man is pulling up his pants, or reaching for a weapon.

Perhaps, a better (or worse, actually) example of wrongful shooting by police is this video. Does the kid reach for his waistband? Maybe, but the officers are completely out of bounds in pulling up in the way they did, jumping out of the car, and the one pulling the trigger immediately. If you're on the passenger side, why even get out of the car as they are reinforced to take a shot. Moreover, yell at your buddy to drive on if you think he's going for a gun, and then call in reinforcements.

For issues surrounding the event, the 911 caller said the kid had what was probably a BB gun, so there wasn't even bad information creating a wrong narrative.

Moreover, as a gun owner who used to live in California, I know the police can be reactionary and completely out-of-bounds. However, that does not negate the fact that these officers are put in a life or death situation and have to make snap decisions, and then others take hours, days, and even weeks to assess and reassess his or her actions.

I watched another video where a civil rights leader went through a police training exercise. He was put in the position of an officer, and then ran through scenarios used to train officers. Of course, he shot an unarmed man and then allowed himself to be shot and killed. In the end, his telling statement something along the lines of "I now understand how important it is to cooperate in the moment."

[SteelMayhem72]

Not at all. It's a clear case of a man repeatedly not following instructions, being warned of the outcome if he does it again, and then reaching behind him specifically when told not to and he would be shot for doing so. It's one of the clearer cases of justified shooting, and a jury thought so, too.

Also, all this "Unarmed" crap is just that, crap. A police officer has no idea whether you're armed or unarmed. So, if you make movements that are threatening to a police officer, there is no reason for that officer to assume anything else except you are reaching for a weapon, especially if you have been instructed not to do so.

THIS

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[Mojouw]

Perhaps, except, the video was presented as an example of bad policing based on what was in the video itself. On that note, he is wrong. I can't and won't speak to what happened before as I do not know. But taking the video out of context and looking at it as a whole within itself, if that was the only context, the cop was right in shooting because the cop does not know whether the man is pulling up his pants, or reaching for a weapon.

Perhaps, a better (or worse, actually) example of wrongful shooting by police is this video. Does the kid reach for his waistband? Maybe, but the officers are completely out of bounds in pulling up in the way they did, jumping out of the car, and the one pulling the trigger immediately. If you're on the passenger side, why even get out of the car as they are reinforced to take a shot. Moreover, yell at your buddy to drive on if you think he's going for a gun, and then call in reinforcements.

For issues surrounding the event, the 911 caller said the kid had what was probably a BB gun, so there wasn't even bad information creating a wrong narrative.

Moreover, as a gun owner who used to live in California, I know the police can be reactionary and completely out-of-bounds. However, that does not negate the fact that these officers are put in a life or death situation and have to make snap decisions, and then others take hours, days, and even weeks to assess and reassess his or her actions.

I watched another video where a civil rights leader went through a police training exercise. He was put in the position of an officer, and then ran through scenarios used to train officers. Of course, he shot an unarmed man and then allowed himself to be shot and killed. In the end, his telling statement something along the lines of "I now understand how important it is to cooperate in the moment."

Reading the details of the events that led up to the shooting are pretty chilling. It is the "Daniel Shaver" case if you are interested. If not, I won't subject you or anyone else to a detailed account. Suffice it to say, the cops were more than a little all over the map.

I am extremely sympathetic to the stressful and often unreasonable situations that police are placed in and then tasked with making instant decisions that carry mortal consequences. I have no doubt this as almost impossible task. I also realize that cooperation at the time is essential for all involved.

I am of the belief that many police departments simply need better training. I find it interesting that most of the prominent (not all) police involved shootings are sourced to medium to small cities where I have to wonder if the police receive adequate funding to place their officers through the initial and continued training that perhaps officers in large urban cities have. I don't know the answer, but I do wonder...

[SteelMayhem72]

This is the best response (and accurate in my mind) I have read in a long time!!! Bravo!!!

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[SteelMayhem72]

The discussion is about race because a certain faction has made it about race, simple as that. As you correctly point out, this is not an issue restricted to any one particular group - we are merely seeing the worst 0.00029% of interactions with police. (no, literally, 0.00029%, not just a made-up number. Which is to say 987 people killed by police last year out of 340,000,000.) This would seem to reinforce the notion of concept of scale.




Since 88% of all people killed by police last year were armed, that doesn't leave very many who weren't ... precisely 68 people, actually. That would mean according to the 39% figure, you could expect 26 of them to be black. However many of those you say "shouldn't" have been shot but were anyway (in other words, the victims of "disproportionate" violence as opposed to the normal run rate) would be at most 15 of 16. For the entire year, across the entire country. And this is after allowing the HUGE concession that even though you likely know nothing at all about the individual circumstances under which most of these people were shot, we'll go along with it and assume it was because of police bias. Does that look like an indication of systemic racism to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...hootings-2017/

For that matter, why would 13% of the population be involved in 37% of the arrests for violent crimes? Uh-oh, wait a second - that almost exactly matches up with the 39% of unarmed people you say are shot without justification. It's almost as if being involved in a higher number of volatile situations with the police directly corresponds with a higher chance of being shot by the police, in a nearly 1:1 relationship. Maybe even less than that, since according to the official stats, only 22% of the people killed by the police overall (armed or unarmed) are black.

For that matter, why are men 50% of the population but 95% of those killed by police? That's not FAIR. How come gun owners are less than 30% of the population, but almost 90% of police shooting victims are armed? That's not FAIR.

Wait, I'm just being rhetorical, and I know damn well that the reason why percentages aren't the same is probably because those specific individuals were engaged in dangerous behavior at the time? But which one is it, then? That individual behavior makes a difference in the outcome? Or that individual behavior is uniform and any difference in outcome are due to bias? In that case, the activists should be far more concerned about the rampant sexism that men experience at the hands of the police. And if behavior is assumed to be uniform across all groups, shouldn't the police's behavior also therefore be uniform? (Actually, what this means is their entire argument falls apart).

So, back to ...




The reason is because race is an amazing tool for amplifying the importance of something far beyond what it would normally be. You bring up police shootings under normal circumstances, most people go "well yeah, it sucks that people occasionally get shot." Bring up who was shot and where, and you get "yeah, it sucks, but it's kind of common sense to know that more bad shit happens in bad neighborhoods." Say it's ABOUT racism, and suddenly everyone is rushing to take a side. Many people will support you doggedly and blindly just because that's the issue.

In a broader sense, this is really about a problem with what the left has become in the past decade or so. There is literally no way that an intelligent person could believe a large number of the points that they hold dear. It just is not possible. So you are left with four main kinds of people there. You have those who are simply too stupid to know any better, who I feel sorry for. You have those who possess some intelligence but have been manipulated or are following groupthink, who I also feel sorry for, but also hold out some hope that they might come to their senses. You have those who go along with it because they think of themselves as independent renegades / counterculture / fight-the-system types, who I can sometimes respect, although I think many are misguided. And you have those doing the manipulating for their own gain, for whom I have no other word than evil.

At any rate, put all that together, and that's how you get where we are now.

This is actually the quote I was talking about... Bravo!! I agree with all of this

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[Dwinsgames]

Reading the details of the events that led up to the shooting are pretty chilling. It is the "Daniel Shaver" case if you are interested. If not, I won't subject you or anyone else to a detailed account. Suffice it to say, the cops were more than a little all over the map.

I am extremely sympathetic to the stressful and often unreasonable situations that police are placed in and then tasked with making instant decisions that carry mortal consequences. I have no doubt this as almost impossible task. I also realize that cooperation at the time is essential for all involved.

I am of the belief that many police departments simply need better training. I find it interesting that most of the prominent (not all) police involved shootings are sourced to medium to small cities where I have to wonder if the police receive adequate funding to place their officers through the initial and continued training that perhaps officers in large urban cities have. I don't know the answer, but I do wonder...

some places ( New castle Pa per example ) its not all that difficult to become a cop ( as a side note I avoid that place like the plague and its just 15 mins away from me ) .... https://www.policeofficer.education/...-requirements/

[Craic]

Reading the details of the events that led up to the shooting are pretty chilling. It is the "Daniel Shaver" case if you are interested. If not, I won't subject you or anyone else to a detailed account. Suffice it to say, the cops were more than a little all over the map.

I am extremely sympathetic to the stressful and often unreasonable situations that police are placed in and then tasked with making instant decisions that carry mortal consequences. I have no doubt this as almost impossible task. I also realize that cooperation at the time is essential for all involved.

I am of the belief that many police departments simply need better training. I find it interesting that most of the prominent (not all) police involved shootings are sourced to medium to small cities where I have to wonder if the police receive adequate funding to place their officers through the initial and continued training that perhaps officers in large urban cities have. I don't know the answer, but I do wonder...

I would go one step further. As noted in my previous post, I also think community leaders are very ignorant of the realities facing police and as such, false narratives are pushed that create these situations. (I am not saying they are lying or deceiving, but are simply ignorant of the reality from a police officer's perspective). A vast step forward, in my opinion, would be to take community leaders through the training I noted before. Let them play the role of officer and see first hand how certain movements or actions cause such devastating responses. Until we get both the communities to truly understand "cooperate in the moment" and better training for the officers, this problem simply will not go away.

[Mojouw]

I would go one step further. As noted in my previous post, I also think community leaders are very ignorant of the realities facing police and as such, false narratives are pushed that create these situations. (I am not saying they are lying or deceiving, but are simply ignorant of the reality from a police officer's perspective). A vast step forward, in my opinion, would be to take community leaders through the training I noted before. Let them play the role of officer and see first hand how certain movements or actions cause such devastating responses. Until we get both the communities to truly understand "cooperate in the moment" and better training for the officers, this problem simply will not go away.

I would agree. And I think that it is a two-way street. Many cops are unaware of the realities facing members of the communities they police.

The lack of dialogue and respect between the two groups is part of this whole mess. If that one thing could change tomorrow and police forces and communities could enter into true partnerships, a ton of this stuff would get alot better really quickly.

[tom444]

"For those wanting a future in police work understand this:

- It's not about you it's about the public.

- It's not about beating the suspect it's about bringing him/her to justice.

- it's not about the glory it's about the quality of service you give each victim.

- It's never personal even when the suspect tells you it is.

- It's not just a job. The choices you make will impact people and families for days, years, or a lifetime.

What's it like to be cop? It's a front row seat to the greatest show on earth."


https://www.indeed.com/forum/job/pol...icer/t58960/p2

[Mojouw]

some places ( New castle Pa per example ) its not all that difficult to become a cop ( as a side note I avoid that place like the plague and its just 15 mins away from me ) .... https://www.policeofficer.education/...-requirements/

I was thinking that might be part of it. Then you have all these small to medium police departments super gunned up as well as the result of early 2000's Homeland Security cash.

Can't be good...but I do not know for sure.

[Dwinsgames]

I would agree. And I think that it is a two-way street. Many cops are unaware of the realities facing members of the communities they police.

The lack of dialogue and respect between the two groups is part of this whole mess. If that one thing could change tomorrow and police forces and communities could enter into true partnerships, a ton of this stuff would get alot better really quickly.

its not for the cop to understand what is going on in a community nearly as much as it is the community understanding they need to listen to vocal commands of the officer and do what they are told for the 2 mins it takes to ensure everyone goes home safely ( or to jail safely if that be the case ) ....

most of these shooting are because people do not listen and follow instructions ...

those instructions are not just for the protection of the Police officer but for the suspect as well if they listen and follow the commands 99.999999999% of the time they live

pretty damned good odds for just following the directions of the officer

[tom444]

I was thinking that might be part of it. Then you have all these small to medium police departments super gunned up as well as the result of early 2000's Homeland Security cash.

Can't be good...but I do not know for sure.

Navy SEALs, “Under pressure, you don’t rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training.”

[tom444]

its not for the cop to understand what is going on in a community nearly as much as it is the community understanding they need to listen to vocal commands of the officer and do what they are told for the 2 mins it takes to ensure everyone goes home safely ( or to jail safely if that be the case ) ....

most of these shooting are because people do not listen and follow instructions ...

those instructions are not just for the protection of the Police officer but for the suspect as well if they listen and follow the commands 99.999999999% of the time they live

pretty damned good odds for just following the directions of the officer

If you don't do what I say I'm going to shoot you? No, they gotta do better than that.

[Dwinsgames]

If you don't do what I say I'm going to shoot you? No, they gotta do better than that.

just LISTEN and you live ....

shouldn't be a hard fu#%*ing choice


if it is then ..... may sound harsh and heartless but I don't feel bad for you



now for the ones that do follow instructions to the T and still die , you know that 0.023% , those folks I feel badly for

[tom444]

just LISTEN and you live ....

shouldn't be a hard fu#%*ing choice


if it is then ..... may sound harsh and heartless but I don't feel bad for you



now for the ones that do follow instructions to the T and still die , you know that 0.023% , those folks I feel badly for

If the guy has a machine gun in his hand, or a grenade, ok. If he doesn't, learn about command presence, or get another job.

[Dwinsgames]

If the guy has a machine gun in his hand, or a grenade, ok. If he doesn't, learn about command presence, or get another job.

bullshit and THIS is why



- - - Updated - - -

[tom444]

bullshit and THIS is why



- - - Updated - - -

They weren't in control. Command presence. They were walking around with their heads up their a$$.

Just because someone isn't doing what you ask them to do doesn't mean you can't still be in control.

[Dwinsgames]

plenty more examples of the same sort of thing .... so if I am airing on the side of cation I am siding with the police who are only trying to do thier jobs and go home at night not some dumb ass that is to proud to follow instructions


you cant paint the police into a corner with no way out ....

if a cop body slams either of those examples you would hear screams of police brutality blah blah blah ....


the cop just cant win with people like you and thats why we are where we are ....

just follow instructions and everyone goes home but you seems to think people can act as they want and not listen and are still supposed to walk away and if they don't then by damned it is the cops fault it didnt go as it should have .... screw that logic



Give respect , listen , get respect and live ....

[Dwinsgames]

I am officially out of this topic before I find myself off of this board ...

[tom444]

plenty more examples of the same sort of thing .... so if I am airing on the side of cation I am siding with the police who are only trying to do thier jobs and go home at night not some dumb ass that is to proud to follow instructions


you cant paint the police into a corner with no way out ....

if a cop body slams either of those examples you would hear screams of police brutality blah blah blah ....


the cop just cant win with people like you and thats why we are where we are ....

just follow instructions and everyone goes home but you seems to think people can act as they want and not listen and are still supposed to walk away and if they don't then by damned it is the cops fault it didnt go as it should have .... screw that logic



Give respect , listen , get respect and live ....

Look at the second video. The officer painted himself into a corner. First he should have had his revolver out, not the taser. Second he walked up on the guy on the same side that his hand was in his pocket. Big mistake. Should have approached the guy from the other side. I could go on and on. It's too bad for the cop, but he didn't take control. Every move you make has to calculated.


Edit to add: The second video is fascinating. I hope they use that as a training video over and over.

[Craic]

plenty more examples of the same sort of thing .... so if I am airing on the side of cation I am siding with the police who are only trying to do thier jobs and go home at night not some dumb ass that is to proud to follow instructions


you cant paint the police into a corner with no way out ....

if a cop body slams either of those examples you would hear screams of police brutality blah blah blah ....


the cop just cant win with people like you and thats why we are where we are ....

just follow instructions and everyone goes home but you seems to think people can act as they want and not listen and are still supposed to walk away and if they don't then by damned it is the cops fault it didnt go as it should have .... screw that logic



Give respect , listen , get respect and live ....

And yet, that is also why the police need to listen to the community and understand their situation, because the police seem to be thinking that not listening immediately means threat. Now, while I will probably always agree that in the moment, an officer has to make those assessment, it would also be good for the officers to understand that in reality, non-compliance doesn't always mean threat. Sometimes, noncompliance occurs because of fear or misunderstanding or believing that a person's rights are being violated and the officer is in the wrong.

Once the police really begin to understand that, then they can also start learning how to deescalate issues before they get to the point of shooting. Will it always work? Nope. Not at all. There are a lot of knuckleheads out there. However, I also think it will make a big enough impact to be worth it, and in the long run, it'll save lives on both sides, both the physical life, but also the emotional/psychological trauma from such acts that hinders a person from having a life.

I just can't help seeing this from the perspective of a person who carries a weapon concealed (as I know we both do). If the 50 state concealed carry law goes through, I will be carrying in California as I have business there at least once a year. Yet, I fear that ignorance among Californian police officers when it comes to guns will put me in a very bad situation every time I get pulled over (and most likely, cause at least a minor violation of my civil rights). The best way to combat that is through education of the police officers that CCW = 99.8 percent chance you are dealing with a law-abiding citizen from whom there is no threat. That education would have to come from people who are authorities on the subject as well as statistical proof and finally, create a change of culture within the California police fraternity.

Now, I also recognize the differences between what I wrote above and what police are dealing with on the streets: I am very careful never to make sudden moves, always keep my hands where they can be seen, and am always respectful. If you don't present as a threat, there's a greater chance you won't be seen as a threat. With that said, though, what I presented above also allows me to understand the frustration of people who believe there is a culture permeating certain elements of law enforcement that automatically puts you at greater risk simply because you are acting within your rights.