Will the Coming Season be Different Because of COVID-19?

[st33lersguy]

What happened to George Floyd was disgusting. There is no place for it in a civilized society. No one is disagreeing on this

But that doesn't excuse the violence and the riots, where property was destroyed, businesses (many of them which were probably owned by and employed minorities) were destroyed, many innocent people were hurt, and some even killed thanks to these riots. The riots hurt innocent people who had nothing to do with the murder of George Floyd. There is not justification for it. (Of course you have celebrity elitists and people working for the Biden campaign bailing these rioters out allowing them to hurt even more innocent people).

[Mojouw]

What happened to George Floyd was disgusting. There is no place for it in a civilized society. No one is disagreeing on this

But that doesn't excuse the violence and the riots, where property was destroyed, businesses (many of them which were probably owned by and employed minorities) were destroyed, many innocent people were hurt, and some even killed thanks to these riots. The riots hurt innocent people who had nothing to do with the murder of George Floyd. There is not justification for it. (Of course you have celebrity elitists and people working for the Biden campaign bailing these rioters out allowing them to hurt even more innocent people).

Where is the days of outrage, calls for deadly military force, and other extreme measures when a city burns after a sports championship? Why not firebomb people like the Bundys when they invade federal land?

I don’t support looting and murdering either. But just a few years ago, largely non violent protests about the same thing were shouted down and protestors were told to shut up and let everyone enjoy their distractions in peace. Now, the same despicable things have frequently been repeated and folks feel backed into a corner. Don’t corner a predator and all that.

It sucks that innocent folks are getting caught in all this. It’s horrible. But what would many of us do if we truly believed are children could be murdered with impunity and we had zero options?

[st33lersguy]

Where is the days of outrage, calls for deadly military force, and other extreme measures when a city burns after a sports championship? Why not firebomb people like the Bundys when they invade federal land?

I don’t support looting and murdering either. But just a few years ago, largely non violent protests about the same thing were shouted down and protestors were told to shut up and let everyone enjoy their distractions in peace. Now, the same despicable things have frequently been repeated and folks feel backed into a corner. Don’t corner a predator and all that.

It sucks that innocent folks are getting caught in all this. It’s horrible. But what would many of us do if we truly believed are children could be murdered with impunity and we had zero options?

Oh please there is no justification for it. Many people are angry, personally hurt, and worried about this, and plenty of them aren't using it as an excuse to act like barbarians.

[Mojouw]

Oh please there is no justification for it. Many people are angry, personally hurt, and worried about this, and plenty of them aren't using it as an excuse to act like barbarians.

Anybody shoot your family down in the street recently? Put someone who looks exactly like you in a chokehold?

Excuses and explanations are not the same thing. It is possible to explain why events take place without excusing them.

There is a whole field of study devoted to it. It’s called history.

[pczach]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...180-6/fulltext

Pretty damning collection of data. "We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19."

Translation: It is snake oil and actually seems to increase the chance of getting totally wrecked.

Authors Retract Studies That Found Risks of Antimalaria Drugs for Covid-19

Jared S. Hopkins, Russell Gold



Two major studies casting doubt on the ability of antimalaria drugs to treat Covid-19 patients based on data from a little-known Chicago company, Surgisphere Corp., were retracted Thursday.

The Lancet first pulled a study published late last month that found antimalarials provided no benefit as a treatment for Covid-19 infections while increasing the risk of heart problems and death. The New England Journal of Medicine then retracted a separate article, published in early May, that examined the impact of cardiovascular and blood-pressure drugs in Covid-19 patients.

Both articles featured three of the same authors, Mandeep Mehra, Amit Patel and Sapan Desai, and were based on data supplied by Dr. Desai’s company, Surgisphere.

Surgisphere had said it collected the de-identified patient information from hospitals that was used in the studies. The Wall Street Journal contacted more than a dozen large U.S. hospitals, including some that treated high numbers of Covid-19 patients. None said they had an arrangement to share patient data with Surgisphere, and several said they had never heard of it.

Dr. Desai has said previously, through a spokesperson, that his firm was unable to identify the 671 hospitals in the Lancet study due to privacy agreements. He was an author on both papers. Though his name was on the New England Journal of Medicine retraction, it wasn’t on the Lancet retraction.

He declined to comment through a representative on Thursday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authors-retract-studies-that-found-risks-of-antimalaria-drugs-for-covid-19/ar-BB152RfJ?li=BBnb7Kz

[EzraTank]

Probably gang related shootings in most cases.
But, big difference is they don’t wear badges and aren’t paid to enforce the written law.
What’s your point?
Let me guess...since Afro-Americans kill other Afro-Americans we should overlook the instances when police do it unjustifiably.

No. I'm saying all the media and morons out there (thinking Lebron James) who say blacks are "hunted" by the police are full of shit. Afro-Americans are hunted by other Afro-Americans at a ridiculously high rate and I don't see Lebron pleading with the "gangs" or others to stop it. That was my point. Yes there are shitty police officers and they need to be dealt with. In this particular case the four officers were fired and about to be prosecuted and people STILL acted like this. One thing that should be mandatory are body cams. EVERY cop should be required to wear one and it MUST be never turned off while they are in public. If it is, then they get fired immediately.

Most of these problems are social economic problems, not just race issues.

- - - Updated - - -

I don’t get the point? The majority of violent crime is committed by people of the same group. But we never talk about “white on white” or “Asian on Asian” crime.

You don’t travel to commit crime. It’s an opportunist enterprise and therefore takes place primarily in your community where everyone looks like you. Not hard to understand.

And, despite the phenomenally stupid false equivalence between citizens killing citizens and police killing citizens, to say that “no one is talking about it” means no one you know. But tons of people are talking about it all the time.

Further, ever wonder why some areas have so much “black on black crime”? Might be because no one trusts the cops enough to call them in to help deal with the crime. That might be what happens when the cops falsely arrest, harass, and murder people who look like you on a regular basis.

Please show me the Tweet Lebron sent about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Plus as soon as videos emerge of white suspects being executed by the cops; it would begin to be on par.

Oh you mean like this that happened in 2016? Crickets from the national media btw and no looting or riots. It happened Mojouw, any thoughts?

https://townhall.com/columnists/mike...TObc0i8tfSUq4U

- - - Updated - - -

Authors Retract Studies That Found Risks of Antimalaria Drugs for Covid-19

Jared S. Hopkins, Russell Gold



Two major studies casting doubt on the ability of antimalaria drugs to treat Covid-19 patients based on data from a little-known Chicago company, Surgisphere Corp., were retracted Thursday.

The Lancet first pulled a study published late last month that found antimalarials provided no benefit as a treatment for Covid-19 infections while increasing the risk of heart problems and death. The New England Journal of Medicine then retracted a separate article, published in early May, that examined the impact of cardiovascular and blood-pressure drugs in Covid-19 patients.

Both articles featured three of the same authors, Mandeep Mehra, Amit Patel and Sapan Desai, and were based on data supplied by Dr. Desai’s company, Surgisphere.

Surgisphere had said it collected the de-identified patient information from hospitals that was used in the studies. The Wall Street Journal contacted more than a dozen large U.S. hospitals, including some that treated high numbers of Covid-19 patients. None said they had an arrangement to share patient data with Surgisphere, and several said they had never heard of it.

Dr. Desai has said previously, through a spokesperson, that his firm was unable to identify the 671 hospitals in the Lancet study due to privacy agreements. He was an author on both papers. Though his name was on the New England Journal of Medicine retraction, it wasn’t on the Lancet retraction.

He declined to comment through a representative on Thursday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authors-retract-studies-that-found-risks-of-antimalaria-drugs-for-covid-19/ar-BB152RfJ?li=BBnb7Kz

TDS444? Any thoughts?

[EzraTank]

It is a percentage of population. When you are 2/3 of the total population it is not surprising that you make up over half the deaths. When you are less than 3/20 of the population but comprise over 1/4 of the police deaths, it seems suspicious.

Plus as soon as videos emerge of white suspects being executed by the cops; it would begin to be on par.

So sick of this argument, but don't believe me listen to Candace Owens. Go to the 10:45 mark and listen. Actually listen to the whole video she preaches nothing but wisdom.

[Mojouw]

Cool. You got one guy. One incident does not make a repeated pattern. It is a horrific incident for certain. I believe there was that one where the cops gave that guy in the hotel bizarre and contradictory commands and then shot him. Wasn't he white And that started a big national stink -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

But it does not represent the repeated and damning pattern of what often on bystander videos appear to be just short of executions by police of people of color. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

As for Candace Owens, here record of outright lies and repeated attempts to twist the truth to fit her own bizarre political ideology is so clear and well documented that using her as a "source" or "evidence" to support anything other than the idea that some people will lie cheat and steal to get what they want is ridiculous. She has argued that the "Southern Strategy" didn't take place. That is a statement so easy to disprove that is comical that she even tried to get away with it.

Again, I will stress that understanding and explaining why the events in the world around us are taking place is NOT the same as excusing or agreeing with them. Too much of the debate on the issue is focused on de-legitimizing the claims of the black community because people are angry that they burned a Target. It is possible to both condemn the violence AND agree with the source of the anger driving the violence.

- - - Updated - - -

Authors Retract Studies That Found Risks of Antimalaria Drugs for Covid-19

Jared S. Hopkins, Russell Gold



Two major studies casting doubt on the ability of antimalaria drugs to treat Covid-19 patients based on data from a little-known Chicago company, Surgisphere Corp., were retracted Thursday.

The Lancet first pulled a study published late last month that found antimalarials provided no benefit as a treatment for Covid-19 infections while increasing the risk of heart problems and death. The New England Journal of Medicine then retracted a separate article, published in early May, that examined the impact of cardiovascular and blood-pressure drugs in Covid-19 patients.

Both articles featured three of the same authors, Mandeep Mehra, Amit Patel and Sapan Desai, and were based on data supplied by Dr. Desai’s company, Surgisphere.

Surgisphere had said it collected the de-identified patient information from hospitals that was used in the studies. The Wall Street Journal contacted more than a dozen large U.S. hospitals, including some that treated high numbers of Covid-19 patients. None said they had an arrangement to share patient data with Surgisphere, and several said they had never heard of it.

Dr. Desai has said previously, through a spokesperson, that his firm was unable to identify the 671 hospitals in the Lancet study due to privacy agreements. He was an author on both papers. Though his name was on the New England Journal of Medicine retraction, it wasn’t on the Lancet retraction.

He declined to comment through a representative on Thursday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authors-retract-studies-that-found-risks-of-antimalaria-drugs-for-covid-19/ar-BB152RfJ?li=BBnb7Kz

What a disaster. This is just more fuel for the "experts don't actually know anything and have an agenda" fire. Awesome. They should put these dirtballs in science jail.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Authors Retract Studies That Found Risks of Antimalaria Drugs for Covid-19

Jared S. Hopkins, Russell Gold



Two major studies casting doubt on the ability of antimalaria drugs to treat Covid-19 patients based on data from a little-known Chicago company, Surgisphere Corp., were retracted Thursday.

The Lancet first pulled a study published late last month that found antimalarials provided no benefit as a treatment for Covid-19 infections while increasing the risk of heart problems and death. The New England Journal of Medicine then retracted a separate article, published in early May, that examined the impact of cardiovascular and blood-pressure drugs in Covid-19 patients.

Both articles featured three of the same authors, Mandeep Mehra, Amit Patel and Sapan Desai, and were based on data supplied by Dr. Desai’s company, Surgisphere.

Surgisphere had said it collected the de-identified patient information from hospitals that was used in the studies. The Wall Street Journal contacted more than a dozen large U.S. hospitals, including some that treated high numbers of Covid-19 patients. None said they had an arrangement to share patient data with Surgisphere, and several said they had never heard of it.

Dr. Desai has said previously, through a spokesperson, that his firm was unable to identify the 671 hospitals in the Lancet study due to privacy agreements. He was an author on both papers. Though his name was on the New England Journal of Medicine retraction, it wasn’t on the Lancet retraction.

He declined to comment through a representative on Thursday.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/authors-retract-studies-that-found-risks-of-antimalaria-drugs-for-covid-19/ar-BB152RfJ?li=BBnb7Kz

The results of a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study of 821 patients that were in contact with COVID-19 was published in NEJM a couple days ago. It was headed up by Dr. Todd Lee at McGill University in Montreal and also collaborating with University of Minnesota, University of Alberta and Univ of Manitoba. It showed no difference between Placebo and Hydroxychloroquine in development of COVID-19.

It also found the subjects had a larger incidence of nausea and intestinal discomfort, but no serious side effects including no heart arrhythmia. The patient group was by and large relatively young and healthy, with an average age of 40.

This is basically level 1 evidence that Hydroxychloroquine has no benefit in preventing COVID-19 and no serious side effects in relatively young and healthy population. 800 subjects is a decent number, but a larger study could be conducted, with a larger group of subjects with a more varying range of ages and potential comorbidities.

At the McGill University Health Centre, a trial looking at early treatment in the community is underway. "I would have loved to have a positive study, but in circumstances like this you need the negative studies too so you can redirect attention," Lee said.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/hydroxyc...inds-1.4967662

[Mojouw]

For anyone interested, this is the new voice of "wisdom" according to some: https://www.facebook.com/NowThisWhoI...2322537018631/

I believe I have produced pools of vomit that are wiser than Owens. Anyone who lists their "profession" as "YouTube commentator" is not someone I believe should be ever taken seriously on any issue besides maybe how YouTube is nonsense.

Full Disclosure: I know nothing about the organization that made the video (did check a few of the statements included and they seem to be legit) and I knew nothing about Owens until the internet decided she was the new face of something over the past week or so.

[EzraTank]

For anyone interested, this is the new voice of "wisdom" according to some: https://www.facebook.com/NowThisWhoI...2322537018631/

I believe I have produced pools of vomit that are wiser than Owens. Anyone who lists their "profession" as "YouTube commentator" is not someone I believe should be ever taken seriously on any issue besides maybe how YouTube is nonsense.

You just openly stated your ignorance. I would LOVE to see you openly debate this young woman in public since your "vomit" is so much more intelligence than her it should be easy for you.

She would DESTROY you. But hey you keep preaching your stupidity. Your lazy backhanded comments are ridiculous. Take her points and debate them. You know you can't but try. Let's hear YOUR wisdom.

Is your vomit more intelligent than these two guys as well?



I'd believe these guys and Candace over some keyboard warrior with "intelligent" vomit.

[Mojouw]

You just openly stated your ignorance. I would LOVE to see you openly debate this young woman in public since your "vomit" is so much more intelligence than her it should be easy for you.

She would DESTROY you. But hey you keep preaching your stupidity. Your lazy backhanded comments are ridiculous. Take her points and debate them. You know you can't but try. Let's hear YOUR wisdom.

Is your vomit more intelligent than these two guys as well?



I'd believe these guys and Candace over some keyboard warrior with "intelligent" vomit.

Why would I try in this forum? I openly posted facts that directly contradicted and exposed the manipulation of data that Owens was using in the Tweet you posted awhile back. It just got ignored. You have no interest in a discussion on any of these issues. You just like the comforting snuggles of finding black faces that will tell you what you have already decided to be true. In 2016 or whenever I posted multiple legitimate sources that laid out the case for race based inequality being a component of American life for many. I was told that it wasn't true and racism was "over and done with".

If you want one thing that is easy to prove about Owens "lies" - here you go: https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...uthern-strate/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...hern-strategy/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt130hp7d

That took 15 seconds.

We could do the "Soros funds protests" thing in a similar time frame. Would you believe me if I did? Or would you just be "sick of this argument" as well? Whether we like or dislike data and facts doesn't make them not data or facts.

[st33lersguy]

Anybody shoot your family down in the street recently? Put someone who looks exactly like you in a chokehold?

Excuses and explanations are not the same thing. It is possible to explain why events take place without excusing them.

There is a whole field of study devoted to it. It’s called history.

Well maybe you can explain it to the family of the Dallas Business Owner who was beaten to death and died or the families of some of the other innocent victims that died from the riots

[EzraTank]

Why would I try in this forum? I openly posted facts that directly contradicted and exposed the manipulation of data that Owens was using in the Tweet you posted awhile back. It just got ignored. You have no interest in a discussion on any of these issues. You just like the comforting snuggles of finding black faces that will tell you what you have already decided to be true. In 2016 or whenever I posted multiple legitimate sources that laid out the case for race based inequality being a component of American life for many. I was told that it wasn't true and racism was "over and done with".

If you want one thing that is easy to prove about Owens "lies" - here you go: https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...uthern-strate/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...hern-strategy/
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt130hp7d

That took 15 seconds.

We could do the "Soros funds protests" thing in a similar time frame. Would you believe me if I did? Or would you just be "sick of this argument" as well? Whether we like or dislike data and facts doesn't make them not data or facts.

And I openly posted facts about a white person being killed by the police in 2016, he even pleaded the same line, "I can't breath" but you choose to ignore that.

Your sources are seriously the Politifact, WashingtonPost, wikipedia? The same Washington Post that LIED about the 16 year old "attacking" the American Indian drum beater? Stop your sources are all left leaning rags that have been proven over and over to lie.


How come BLM isn't out in force protesting the death of David Dorn? Did his black life matter less to them because he was a retired cop just trying to protect his community?

Give it up dude, you're a fraud.

[Mojouw]

And I openly posted facts about a white person being killed by the police in 2016, he even pleaded the same line, "I can't breath" but you choose to ignore that.

Your sources are seriously the Politifact, WashingtonPost, wikipedia? The same Washington Post that LIED about the 16 year old "attacking" the American Indian drum beater? Stop your sources are all left leaning rags that have been proven over and over to lie.

Didn’t ignore it. And, like I said, you’re not interested in a discussion. You’re only interested in validation.

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Well maybe you can explain it to the family of the Dallas Business Owner who was beaten to death and died or the families of some of the other innocent victims that died from the riots

Well, since it didn't actually happen - there isn't much to explain: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-idUSKBN23B2EZ

- - - Updated - - -

And I openly posted facts about a white person being killed by the police in 2016, he even pleaded the same line, "I can't breath" but you choose to ignore that.

Your sources are seriously the Politifact, WashingtonPost, wikipedia? The same Washington Post that LIED about the 16 year old "attacking" the American Indian drum beater? Stop your sources are all left leaning rags that have been proven over and over to lie.


How come BLM isn't out in force protesting the death of David Dorn? Did his black life matter less to them because he was a retired cop just trying to protect his community?

Give it up dude, you're a fraud.

And just so we are clear, is your position now that the "southern strategy" is a leftist myth that never took place?

As to David Dorn and his tragic death -- here is the march to honor his memory and publicize his murder: https://youtu.be/GTxZVpy6uV0

[FrancoLambert]

Wasn’t sure if I should have started a new thread with this tangent.
Decided not to.
Want to get your take on the thought process of the spineless morons that have decided for us that the phrase, “all lives matter,” is a racist counter to “black lives matter.”
All lives do matter, black, white, hispanic, asian...right. Why is it deemed to be a racist response?
Hell, even the lives of animals matter.
Couldn’t believe that the announcer for the Sacramento Kings got canned for saying it.
Unbelievable.

[Mojouw]

Wasn’t sure if I should have started a new thread with this tangent.
Decided not to.
Want to get your take on the thought process of the spineless morons that have decided for us that the phrase, “all lives matter,” is a racist counter to “black lives matter.”
All lives do matter, black, white, hispanic, asian...right. Why is it deemed to be a racist response?
Hell, even the lives of animals matter.
Couldn’t believe that the announcer for the Sacramento Kings got canned for saying it.
Unbelievable.

That seems like knee-jerk PR driven nonsense. I just read up on it and I will buy the guy's response that he didn't know any better/worse/whatever. This all goes back to the poisonous and useless nature of social media. Any for profit enterprise that is customer facing, has to race to get out ahead of any potential negative reaction(s), no matter how ludicrous.

For me, "all lives matter" is only a "bad" statement (unfortunate? difficult? problematic? not sure the wording here...) when it is used as covering fire to then argue that race based police harassment/killing either is not happening, is not a problem, or both. Not all, but SOME people are using it as an updated version of "Not to be racist...BUT...insert jaw droppingly racist statement here."

[43Hitman]

I think the sticking point with the "All Lives Matter" thingy is this. First you have to look at it from the black community's perspective, to them they and we are seeing black men getting killed while in

custody and things appear to be under control. That would indicate to me and the black community that in the eyes of the police black lives don't matter. So when you respond to someone who says,

"black lives matter" with, "all lives matter"; to me and a lot of people it seems like your glossing over the fact that all lives can't matter unless black lives matter too. And at the moment its obvious

that some people in authority don't think that black lives matter. Otherwise Mr. Floyd would be alive today.

[pczach]

What a disaster. This is just more fuel for the "experts don't actually know anything and have an agenda" fire. Awesome. They should put these dirtballs in science jail.

It's one of those things when you think you finally have an answer, but instead they embarrass themselves and the science community by retracting the study a few days after releasing their results.

As you said, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were wrong, but it does make people more likely to doubt findings by people that were touted to be "experts" when they can't even stand by results more than a couple days. At the very least, they have discredited themselves. It's the whole reason we are told not to trust the findings of less reputable and less well-known sources.

What a crazy time we are living in.

[pczach]

The results of a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled study of 821 patients that were in contact with COVID-19 was published in NEJM a couple days ago. It was headed up by Dr. Todd Lee at McGill University in Montreal and also collaborating with University of Minnesota, University of Alberta and Univ of Manitoba. It showed no difference between Placebo and Hydroxychloroquine in development of COVID-19.

It also found the subjects had a larger incidence of nausea and intestinal discomfort, but no serious side effects including no heart arrhythmia. The patient group was by and large relatively young and healthy, with an average age of 40.

This is basically level 1 evidence that Hydroxychloroquine has no benefit in preventing COVID-19 and no serious side effects in relatively young and healthy population. 800 subjects is a decent number, but a larger study could be conducted, with a larger group of subjects with a more varying range of ages and potential comorbidities.

At the McGill University Health Centre, a trial looking at early treatment in the community is underway. "I would have loved to have a positive study, but in circumstances like this you need the negative studies too so you can redirect attention," Lee said.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/hydroxyc...inds-1.4967662

I get it, but just a few weeks ago, it was said that we don't have nearly enough of a sample size to know with similar numbers.

I believe the results may be correct, but there is more to it than that. The "experts" were claiming that it could cause more problems and could be dangerous. They appear to be wrong on that front as well.

Overall, still not a great week for the "experts".

[Mojouw]

It's one of those things when you think you finally have an answer, but instead they embarrass themselves and the science community by retracting the study a few days after releasing their results.

As you said, it doesn't necessarily mean that they were wrong, but it does make people more likely to doubt findings by people that were touted to be "experts" when they can't even stand by results more than a couple days. It's the whole reason we are told not to trust the findings of less reputable and less well-known sources.

What a crazy time we are living in.

Good point. It is kinda surprising that they published it over the objections/questions of the reviewers. That is the ENTIRE point of peer review. If the editors are just then going to be "publish it...looks good!" then why send it out for review?

But that opens another rant on the broken nature of scientific publication and editorial. I think awhile back several folks blatantly submitted and got published nonsense papers full of trendy buzzwords.

Honestly, no wonder none of us can agree what is good or bad source of information. One, most of us never get taught much about how to do that. Two, most of what we have been taught is falling apart in advance of idiots and profiteers (I would bet money right now that the original authors have an app or some other tech they want to sell that would have benefited from the flawed article).

Remember when your parents (at least mine!) offered to knock us into next month/year/decade? Wonder if that still stands...

[pczach]

Good point. It is kinda surprising that they published it over the objections/questions of the reviewers. That is the ENTIRE point of peer review. If the editors are just then going to be "publish it...looks good!" then why send it out for review?

But that opens another rant on the broken nature of scientific publication and editorial. I think awhile back several folks blatantly submitted and got published nonsense papers full of trendy buzzwords.

Honestly, no wonder none of us can agree what is good or bad source of information. One, most of us never get taught much about how to do that. Two, most of what we have been taught is falling apart in advance of idiots and profiteers (I would bet money right now that the original authors have an app or some other tech they want to sell that would have benefited from the flawed article).

Remember when your parents (at least mine!) offered to knock us into next month/year/decade? Wonder if that still stands...

We all know that mistakes can be made, but the whole process was flawed. This wasn't an innocent oversight or simple miscalculation or mistake. This was something that was known from the outset.

Unbelievable.

If I had been dishonest about something, I would expect to get my ass kicked. I was brought up by my parents to be honest and straightforward to a fault. It is your reputation on the line, and a reflection on the family as a whole. Maybe not enough people think that way anymore, but they should. Whatever happened to integrity?

[Mojouw]

We all know that mistakes can be made, but the whole process was flawed. This wasn't an innocent oversight or simple miscalculation or mistake. This was something that was known from the outset.

Unbelievable.

If I had been dishonest about something, I would expect to get my ass kicked. I was brought up by my parents to be honest and straightforward to a fault. It is your reputation on the line, and a reflection on the family as a whole. Maybe not enough people think that way anymore, but they should. Whatever happened to integrity?

Agreed. That is why I think that they (the original authors) have something to "sell" or "monetize" from the article. Their company appears to be some bizarre blend of tech, data, and healthcare (but no actual health outcomes) - https://surgisphere.com/about-us/.

I also bet the authors are under 35 and heavily influenced by the "tech industry" mantra of "move fast and break things". Just get to the next funding round/benchmark and then whatever sins you committed to get there will be forgiven. They are apparently all about machine learning tools (QuartzClinical) and a big data harvesting operation I just bet they will sell you access to (Surgisphere registry) -- https://surgisphere.com/2020/05/29/r...xychloroquine/

All in all, it seems like an opportunistic sham by folks motivated to get their start-up into the big leagues. It is really shocking that so many got suckered: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...-be-unraveling

I honestly just assumed that if it makes it through the supposedly rigorous process to get published in the NEJM and Lancet; that it is solid information. Seems like some of those processes got ignored and the journals got singed a bit. At least, they eventually responded and retracted the information. Honestly, a few days is like warp speed for these kinds of publications.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I get it, but just a few weeks ago, it was said that we don't have nearly enough of a sample size to know with similar numbers.

I believe the results may be correct, but there is more to it than that. The "experts" were claiming that it could cause more problems and could be dangerous. They appear to be wrong on that front as well.

Overall, still not a great week for the "experts".

Are we really expecting 100% perfection about how to treat a new strain of highly contagious virus that has only been prevalent for a few months??

I often mention this to people that complain how doctors were not able to fix their problem or their families problem..."the human body is not like a car, that you just goto the auto parts counter and replace the damaged part. Its a lot more complex than that and we have to be more reasonable in understanding that its not always an easy fix."

[silver & black]

Who knew the vaccine for COVID-19 was riots and looting?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I honestly just assumed that if it makes it through the supposedly rigorous process to get published in the NEJM and Lancet; that it is solid information. Seems like some of those processes got ignored and the journals got singed a bit. At least, they eventually responded and retracted the information. Honestly, a few days is like warp speed for these kinds of publications.

A key for reading medical papers is to focus on the Methods or Materials sections. This paper referenced was a registry of retrospective results collected. Those kind of retrospective studies get published often, but physicians who know medical evidence understand these are not high level evidence. They often point in a direction, where prospective, randomized trials can offer better level of evidence.

I wonder if it got pushed thru because it was a hot topic, but personally a registry of data collected retrospectively to me is just a point in the right direction. Better studies are those that are from respected teaching institutions that are prospective. Again, the University of Virginia study that collected data from VA hospitals retrospectively, is a more trusted paper to me, as well as I think they had collaboration with the NIH.

- - - Updated - - -

Who knew the vaccine for COVID-19 was riots and looting?

Even if its peaceful protest, I think a lot of the close proximity and massive amounts of crowds is going to result in a rise in the number of cases.

[Mojouw]

A key for reading medical papers is to focus on the Methods or Materials sections. This paper referenced was a registry of retrospective results collected. Those kind of retrospective studies get published often, but physicians who know medical evidence understand these are not high level evidence. They often point in a direction, where prospective, randomized trials can offer better level of evidence.

I wonder if it got pushed thru because it was a hot topic, but personally a registry of data collected retrospectively to me is just a point in the right direction. Better studies are those that are from respected teaching institutions that are prospective. Again, the University of Virginia study that collected data from VA hospitals retrospectively, is a more trusted paper to me, as well as I think they had collaboration with the NIH.

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Even if its peaceful protest, I think a lot of the close proximity and massive amounts of crowds is going to result in a rise in the number of cases.

You are totally right. It is on me for not ever being bothered to properly read the original article. I scanned several summaries from other sources, looked at the abstract for the original, and called it a day. I know better, but I got lazy and wanted to drink beer and otherwise avoid responsibilities.

[pczach]

Agreed. That is why I think that they (the original authors) have something to "sell" or "monetize" from the article. Their company appears to be some bizarre blend of tech, data, and healthcare (but no actual health outcomes) - https://surgisphere.com/about-us/.

I also bet the authors are under 35 and heavily influenced by the "tech industry" mantra of "move fast and break things". Just get to the next funding round/benchmark and then whatever sins you committed to get there will be forgiven. They are apparently all about machine learning tools (QuartzClinical) and a big data harvesting operation I just bet they will sell you access to (Surgisphere registry) -- https://surgisphere.com/2020/05/29/r...xychloroquine/

All in all, it seems like an opportunistic sham by folks motivated to get their start-up into the big leagues. It is really shocking that so many got suckered: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...-be-unraveling

I honestly just assumed that if it makes it through the supposedly rigorous process to get published in the NEJM and Lancet; that it is solid information. Seems like some of those processes got ignored and the journals got singed a bit. At least, they eventually responded and retracted the information. Honestly, a few days is like warp speed for these kinds of publications.

Which is exactly why none of us seem to know who is credible, and who is not. Even when we think we know, we don't.

In this crazy, fast-paced world where information is rocketed to the world in split seconds via the internet, all that seems to matter is getting the information out first so you get all the attention, or strictly playing an angle to make a buck regardless of right/wrong.

I am losing faith in the motives of almost everything that is said or done anymore.

When Donald Trump says something off the cuff that is as close to the truth as scientific studies published in respected publications and communities, something is wrong with how things are being done. As I stated in my reply to El-Gonzo above, "experts" were calling Trump an idiot, and claiming hydroxychloroquine was potentially dangerous when used to treat COVID-19. They even stated some possible dangers as if they had already conducted a study.

Unsubstantiated claims by the President and the experts. Not good all the way around.

[pczach]

Are we really expecting 100% perfection about how to treat a new strain of highly contagious virus that has only been prevalent for a few months??

I often mention this to people that complain how doctors were not able to fix their problem or their families problem..."the human body is not like a car, that you just goto the auto parts counter and replace the damaged part. Its a lot more complex than that and we have to be more reasonable in understanding that its not always an easy fix."

No, of course not. It's just that people that should know better are making claims on both sides of the issue. As you just said, and I said a few weeks ago: It's too early to know everything there is to know. I believe my quote was something like....the only people that are correct are those that say there isn't enough information to know.

[Mojouw]

I think the sticking point with the "All Lives Matter" thingy is this. First you have to look at it from the black community's perspective, to them they and we are seeing black men getting killed while in

custody and things appear to be under control. That would indicate to me and the black community that in the eyes of the police black lives don't matter. So when you respond to someone who says,

"black lives matter" with, "all lives matter"; to me and a lot of people it seems like your glossing over the fact that all lives can't matter unless black lives matter too. And at the moment its obvious

that some people in authority don't think that black lives matter. Otherwise Mr. Floyd would be alive today.

I saw this somewhere else earlier today and think it applies here and I will attempt to summarize it.

When the Boston marathon was bombed and we said "Boston Strong" no one said "All Cities are Strong".
When the Vegas shooting happened and we "Stand with Vegas" no one said "What about the shootings in my city"?
When various overseas and domestic terrorist incidents have happened and everyone supports the place in crisis; no one says "But what about the crisis that happened in my city".
We raise money and awareness for specific diseases and conditions and no one feels that it takes away from other disease cure efforts.

Of course all lives matter. But "all lives" are not currently in crisis. Usually we promote attention and action towards groups that are currently responding to a crisis or ongoing critical problem that does not seem to be getting solved.