Stoopid questions revisited

[Kittyfish]

I thought it might be helpful to have a thread for people who are not so familiar with the history or intricacies of football to come and ask their questions. Okay, I thought it might be nice if I had a place to come and ask my silly questions and hopefully learn a bit from you smart folks. I hope you will indulge me.

Here are some to start you off:

1) It seems that QBs used to be drafted with the idea that they would sit behind a veteran QB and learn the ropes, and I get that this is still an idea that many, if not most, teams have as an ideal. And I know rookie QBs have started in the past. But I couldn't help but notice that after Ben's stellar rookie year, there seemed to be a lot of QBs starting right away, the same year they were drafted, almost as if it was expected they could do well right off. Is it possible that Ben's fine showing proved to a lot of teams that it wasn't necessarily a given that rookie QBs needed time to learn and mature and could actually do well immediately, or was it more that a lot of better-than-usual QBs came up in the draft after 2004? Or am I mistaken in my assumption completely and rookie QBs are treated no differently and have no greater expectations made of them now than 10, 20, 30 years ago?

2) How exactly did it come about that (some) freshly drafted players automatically earn 50 kajillion dollars before even stepping on a professional football field, when proven veterans are only getting 10 kajillion dollars? How could the players union agree to such a thing? Why would the owners want to spend so much on someone who could be the next Ryan Leaf or Jamarcus Russell? How can such a situation be allowed to happen and how long did they think such yearly escalation could continue? It's absolutely ridiculous, insanity, no matter how you look at it. At the very least, it seems a poor business practice.

3) How is it allowed that someone can be drafted by a team and they pull an Elway or a Manning and say, "no". When I was picked by the wrong kickball team, I couldn't say "no". It seems to me that if you are lucky enough to be drafted, you ought to go to the team who wanted you and picked you and be damn grateful for the opportunity, not to mention the above referenced 50 kajillion dollars. If you are that good, you can get a new, better deal with a new team once your contract is up.

4) What was the deal with the 70s Cowboys "popping up" every now and then at the line of scrimmage? What purpose did it serve? How did they know when to do it? Doesn't the offense have to stay perfectly still before the ball is snapped anyway?

This post has been brought to you by the question mark. Sorry to be so long-winded, and I thank you in advance for any insight you can give me.

[GitNoLuv]

1 - A lot of QB's have started from day 1. Some have done well for themselves (Peyton Manning) while others have failed miserably (Ryan Leaf.) With College playbooks getting more intricate, these players are coming in more NFL ready (at least the ones picked 1st in the draft) than in years past. Another thing to consider is that teams who are often times looking for a QB in the 1st round...are teams with major issues at QB. Generally speaking, 1st round QBs go to teams that suck. In the case of the Steelers, your QB position was one of the weaknesses on an otherwise really good ball club. 1st round QB's come in with very high expectations today. Period. Whether it's Aaron Rodgers, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Sam Bradford, etc...these guys picked early are expected to perform. Even Cam Newton will be treated as a guy who needs to be on the field ASAP.

2 - Inflation...it's as simple as that. There's an unwritten rule that the 1st pick in the 1st round this year must get paid more than the guy picked in the same spot last year. It's balooned out of control to the point of being beyond ridiculous. It is poor business...and it is something the veteran players and the owners want to see fixed. That being said, the agents love the system as it is. And the agents have the players ears.

3 - Elway/Eli were expected to come in and do very very well. They knew that they were going to be drafted by an NFL team...and were going to get drafted early. They also knew that the team picking 1st had a history of playing poorly (which is why they were picking 1st.) It led to them being asshats about the whole deal.

4 - It's a show of solidarity/uniformity. That sort of uniformity does provide a little bit of intimidation to lesser players...because you see these guys working fully functional as a unit. As for the perfectly still...they do have to be perfectly still for at least 1 second (if I remember right). Once they are set. However, getting to the line and popping up as a unit before they have gotten set is not against the rules (or at least it wasn't back then.) Things may have changed since then (I'll have to research that one, hehe).

[Kittyfish]

Thanks, gitno. As I've said before, these are the things football for dummies doesn't explain. I appreciate your time and now can leave here a little smarter - always a good thing. :-)

[GitNoLuv]

Anytime hun! Always better to pass the knowledge on. The world is a better place when it's a smarter place.

[Devilsdancefloor]

Anytime hun! Always better to pass the knowledge on. The world is a better place when it's a smarter place.

yes , yes it is, but why the hell are you still a brownie?? (glad to have you back around the past few days)

[SMR]

yes , yes it is, but why the hell are you still a brownie?? (glad to have you back around the past few days)

Yeah! I thought GitNoLuv was pretty smart until I remembered his loyalty!



Just kidding GitNoLuv!

[GitNoLuv]

yes , yes it is, but why the hell are you still a brownie?? (glad to have you back around the past few days)

I bleed Brown and Orange brother. To be anything else...would be bandwagon!

Yeah! I thought GitNoLuv was pretty smart until I remembered his loyalty!



Just kidding GitNoLuv!

I used to like you...not sure why right now. :P

[Kittyfish]

I was wondering the other day - it seems to me so many teams have these backup QBs that really aren't qualified to play. Once they find themselves in the game, it seems a lot of them have no business being on the field at all. That's a lot of money (maybe not by football standards, but still) and position slots wasted, it seems to me. Why are so many backup QBs practically useless? The backups in other positions don't seem as bad. Is it because decent QBs - not elite QBs, just serviceable ones - are really that hard to find, or the backups get no practice, or teams put just about anyone in the backup QB position and cross their fingers that their services, such as they are, are never needed?

[43Hitman]

Good, consistent QB's are incredibly hard to find.

[Godfather]

Good, consistent QB's are incredibly hard to find.

That, and a decent backup (Rodgers, Schaub, look for Matt Flynn next year) isn't going to stay a backup for very long.

[Kittyfish]

Huh. Interesting. Amazing that quarterback is such a demanding position that there aren't 50 men in the entire United States who can make a decent job of it. I knew it was tough but perhaps not that tough! Thank you both for your input - always appreciated!

[Kittyfish]

Another incredibly stupid question to make you guys feel smart. I've been wondering about this one for a while, ever since the situation arose.

I'm afraid I don't remember exactly which game it was, but towards the end of the season Tomlin opted to kick a field goal on first down to win the game. What would have happened if Suisham had missed? Would they get three more chances to score or is going for the FG a kind of all-or-nothing kind of dealie where you sacrifice the other three downs on the chance of scoring? Does that even make any sense?

Also, does anyone know if it is possible to buy older, previously aired NFL games? I would love to have some stuff from Ben's early years, 2004 and 2005, but googling hasn't been a help. Maybe I'm not searching the right terms but all I get is NFL related video games for sale. Any suggestions?

[NCSteeler]

If the kicker actually kicks the ball, it a done deal. If the snap or hold is fumbled and recovered on any down but 4th you would have another attempt.

[Kittyfish]

I've been wondering about this for a while - mentioned it on the main thread and didn't get a response, but the main thread is not the right place to ask. So here it is again -

Has Ben done enough to get to the HOF even if he doesn't get to or win another Super Bowl? Do you people think Eli Manning will get to the HOF with his 2 wins, and why is Jim Plunkett not in the HOF with his? I would think it's pretty hard to win 2 Super Bowls, and with two different teams, yet.

I realize more interesting things are going on, but I live in hope. Anybody?

[Bluecoat96]

I've been wondering about this for a while - mentioned it on the main thread and didn't get a response, but the main thread is not the right place to ask. So here it is again -

Has Ben done enough to get to the HOF even if he doesn't get to or win another Super Bowl? Do you people think Eli Manning will get to the HOF with his 2 wins, and why is Jim Plunkett not in the HOF with his? I would think it's pretty hard to win 2 Super Bowls, and with two different teams, yet.

I realize more interesting things are going on, but I live in hope. Anybody?

I think he has. Also, with a few more years of quality play from Ben, I believe he will be without a doubt a Hall of Famer. Troy Aikman didn't light the world on fire statistically speaking, but it was a no-brainer that he would get in. Ben has already blown Aikman's stats out of the water, and I don't believe he's close to being done yet. I think he'll have 1 or 2 more super bowl appearances. Ben will get in, and I think after a few more years of playing, he should be a 1st ballot HOF candidate....but I'm also a complete homer. lol

[LLT]

I've been wondering about this for a while - mentioned it on the main thread and didn't get a response, but the main thread is not the right place to ask. So here it is again -

Has Ben done enough to get to the HOF even if he doesn't get to or win another Super Bowl? Do you people think Eli Manning will get to the HOF with his 2 wins, and why is Jim Plunkett not in the HOF with his? I would think it's pretty hard to win 2 Super Bowls, and with two different teams, yet.

I realize more interesting things are going on, but I live in hope. Anybody?

I think the murkiest answer I can give you is that there are quarterbacks and then there are QUARTERBACKS. Some take their team to the big dance and others do enough not to KEEP their teams from the big dance. Most of that is based on "body of work". Ben is better suited than Eli for the HOF but I dont believe that either of them have cemented a place there,

As far as Plunkett...he was a very good QB...not a GREAT QB. He may (in most minds) be one one of those QB's that was more of a field manager than a catalyst to the SuperBowl,

[86WARD]

He has the credentials, Super Bowls, Pro Bowls, rookie records, other records...IMO and one of other credential/question that I consider is can the story of the NFL be told without him? I don't think you can leave Ben Roethlisberger out of the "NFL Story" at this point. First ballot? Probably not at this point...get another Super Bowl or a couple MVPs and then maybe...but his offense and style doesn't lead to MVPs...plus he's not a "golden child."

[tube517]

He has done enough. More years like 2014 and the wait to get in will be shorter.

Eli: Not enough. He is this generation's Jim Plunkett. However, he had to do more than Plunkett to get the 2 SB wins. He (Eli) didn't have a Marcus Allen in either SB win. Both Raider wins were blowouts so Plunkett had it easier.

Plunkett: See above. He wasn't very good w/the Patriots* or the 49ers. Great comeback story but no HOFer. Very fortunate that Al Davis gave him a chance because he was running out of chances.

[Godfather]

3 - Elway/Eli were expected to come in and do very very well. They knew that they were going to be drafted by an NFL team...and were going to get drafted early. They also knew that the team picking 1st had a history of playing poorly (which is why they were picking 1st.) It led to them being asshats about the whole deal.

Another reason--you can't MAKE someone play. They can just decide not to play in the NFL. You have to REALLY dislike the team that drafted you to give up the dream, but walking away is always an option. Then the team that drafted you has to either waste a high first rounder or wave the white flag and trade you.

In both the Elway and Manning cases, the player had extra leverage because he didn't need the money. Elway could have gone to the USFL or played baseball. Eli has plenty of family money and could have gone back to Ole Miss as a coach. Either player could also have gone to Canada or played Arenaball--less money, but when you don't need that first round money you can dictate the terms more easily.

[Count Steeler]

On the field, Ben should be in the hall. His off field antics may keep him out longer than necessary. If he wins 1 or 2 more rings and he keeps up with Ashley and the happily married life style, he will get in first ballot. Without another SB win, the geniuses will prolong his entry.

[Kittyfish]

Thanks to everyone for your responses! Very much appreciated. Eli came in w/higher expectations, has had some really mediocre seasons, and has a higher profile brother but on the other hand has won two Super Bowls against what is considered to be the best team in recent memory, including destroying the pats perfect season. I did what I should have done to begin with and checked out Plunkett on Wikipedia, and can kind of get why he's not in the Hall of Fame. Though some other questionable people are there - Joe Namath comes to mind, but then again, you can't tell the story of football w/o including him, so there's that. I think Ben has a strong chance but another Lombardi or two couldn't hurt. I do worry how he is overlooked by the talking heads and seems to be considered a second tier quarterback, more on a par with Eli or even someone like Cam Newton than, say, Bree s or Rodgers. Many seem to rank Ben under Andrew Luck, as I keep ranting about. Would love to hear more thoughts and opinions, if you have any.

[86WARD]

I put Ben in a category by himself.

You have the Rodgers, Peyton, Brees talk then Roethlisberger is immediately after them but not far behind...IMO and he's far ahead of Andrew Luck, Eli Manning, Rivers, etc...although Luck is climbing that ladder very fast.

[ALLD]

Ben is like Favre, but with two SB wins.

[stillers4me]

I love this thread! I love it so much, I'm going to sticky it.

I joined up with Steelers fan forums years ago after our 5th superbowl win to 1) rejoice with other Pittsburgh fans and 2) to learn more about the game of football from other fans with much more knowledge than myself.

My knowledge continues to grow along with my passion for the Steelers, thanks to the many fans and friends along the way here at SU.

I want all our members to feel comfortable asking any questions here......there's no question too stoopid! There's so many knowledgeable people here and I thank all of you!

[fansince'76]

I've moved this thread to our new "Pigskin University" subforum, since this thread was the inspiration for creating it.

[stillers4me]

Now our questions can be posted as separate threads! There is no question too basic or too stoopid! Thanks, Gary!

[Butch]

Ultimately it really comes down to the voters and that is why it never made sense that someone like John Stallworth could be over looked for so long when he should have easily been 1st ballot. Then you have Greats like L.C. Greenwood and Donnie Shell who should both be there and still aren't. Media biased such as Peter King who tries to justify his voting by saying he can't vote to many Steelers into the hall and then the rest of the group follow his lead. I don't think it should be the fans either as they would have natural biases as well.

For QBs it seems there a 2 criteria either Super bowl wins or Stats. Ben has been to 3 and won 2 is that enough? I don't know, winning one more would go a long ways to cementing him. If he can have a few more years of stats like last year could also cement his position as well as it gets the media's attention. I believe Ben to be a throw back to Dan Fouts who made the HOF but never won a Super bowl in the way that Ben and Dan both would get bloodied and bruised and still stay in the game.

[polamalubeast]

Do you think Roethlisberger can be considered as the best QB in steelers history, even if he not win another Super Bowl?


We can not compare the stats as yards, QB rating, etc, since they have not played in the same era, but here is a interresting stats....Bradshaw and Ben have the same number of start right now with 158.


Record for Bradshaw: 107-51
Record for Ben: 106-52

[ALLD]

Brad never lost a SB, but he had Franco and not Mendenhall. Brad threw a lot more pics too.

[86WARD]

I think when all is said and done, Bradshaw will still have more rings (but I really, REALLY would love to see Ben win 3 more to stick it to the haters) and Ben will obviously hold more Steelers passing records. I think it will ultimately be a great debate that will go for a long time...