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Thread: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

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    Senior Member Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    As a fan, please, please do not use this argument unless you also say "I am willing to become a long-term fan of the CFL and the UFL." Otherwise, do you see how that makes your point look silly?

    Again, disclaimer: I am not trying to "take the players' side" on this one, so much as point out what an irritating argument it is. The point being that "NFL player" does not really compare well to "construction worker" or "factory worker" in terms of job mobility, and that really ought to be obvious to anyone but a complete dingbat. It's not a liquid market where you can just go find another comparable job -- you have ONE option.

    Granted, it's not like it's a horrible option -- but essentially controlling the whole job market for the industry gives management a completely different kind of leverage than it would have in a lockout of, say, an auto plant. It's completely apples and oranges, yet some people are eager to make that comparison -- and even seem to think they're smart for making that comparison -- just because both jobs are "union." Please give everyone, including yourself, a little more credit than that.

    Personally, I keep going back and forth on which side is more greedy, and have basically reached the conclusion that they just both flat-out suck.

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    The Borskinator Array title="Borski is on a distinguished road"> Borski's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    I'm fine with that argument, and I wouldn't have to be a fan of the UFL or AFL, some of their players may play in the NFL but the majority of the players in the NFL would suck it up and work under the new agreement if it came to that.

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    Senior Member Array title="BnG_Hevn has much to be proud of"> BnG_Hevn's Avatar
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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    No, what you should say is the "current players" ...

    After all, there are plenty of untainted kids in college to fill out the NFL ranks along side plenty of NFL talent on the streets so the argument of "having to watch another league" doesn't compute.

    I say let the CURRENT players go find another job.

    I also say that if the owners were to go on without the current players, 90% of them would cave and come back.

  4. #4

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    I tend to have a little more sympathy to the players than I have towards the owners...in THIS situation.

    The owners are attempting to win over the public perception of right/wrong though the use of public relations...constantly using the same "code words". You can bet the farm that if you hear Pash, Goodell, and Jerry Jones using the same catch phrases...they are simply vomiting the agreed upon party line.

    The truth is we have NO IDEA which side is right and which is wrong....or which side is closer to a fair compromise...because the owners and the NFL goons have gathered the wagons and refused to give the players...the media...or most importantly...the fans enough information for anyone to make an intelligent decision. I'm not even talking about getting all their information...but rather just enough to form and opinion.


    From the beginning the players (to their credit) have said "we like the current CBA...if there is a problem with it, show us the books and we can sit across the table and talk about what it would take to fix it"...and the owners have said since the beginning..."Nope...youre not entitled to that information...just "trust" us... trust us when we say that we only want what is fair."

    So ...we can all discuss...argue...debate and give our opinions as to what is fair....who should get what....who is overpayed....and who is greedy. It means NOTHING until we...and the media...and the players.... have the information that is being withheld by the owners. We have no basis...no foundation to form an opinion

    One thing that we CAN be sure of is that this is exactly where the owners planned on being. They planned for the lockout long before they ever entered negotiations. This was confirmed in a court of law in which a judge told the owners that it was more than evident that the deal that the NFL made in regards to television revenue was made in order to fund a lockout.

    As far as I am concerned...It's impossible for anyone to believe the owners... especially when they claim that their plan wasnt (all along) either hope for an impossible surrender by the players union or a lockout.

    Again..I'm not saying who is right in regards to revenue sharing.

    ...but I dont think there is any doubt who is too blame for the lockout.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    but I dont think there is any doubt who is too blame for the lockout.
    Yeah, the players. As soon as they walked away from the mediated talks to run out and decertify they showed they never had any other intention but to punt it to Judge Doty's court.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    World Champion Array title="Just George is on a distinguished road"> Just George's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    I say lets have some good old fashion free market creativity. Players and their (non)union can go and start up a league that they run, they can get the tv contracts, build the arena's, hire staff, coaches, front office etc. They can pay people what they feel the market will bear and "lockout" the current owners and provide competition.

    The nfl/ owners can hire college kids, people who did not make the cut, or the guy down the road from the stadium parking cars. set up what ever deal they want, pay what they want to and see how much profit they would make.

    Now before you all go "THAT IS STUPID". I get it that this is far fetched, but you know what I am getting to the point where I just don't care. This situation sucks. BOTH sides are amazingly greedy, idiotic and out of touch with what us (the fans) deal with on a daily basis. As much as I love football I am at the point of saying, like I have with baseball and basketball, see ya I really can find better things to do with my time and money.

    all this talk on messageboards, in bars, by fans, by sportscasters etc is not doing anything, what the owners, players, NFL and (non)union will listen to is when we say enough is enough you collectively have shown us the fans nothing but contempt and disrepect and we reject you and what ever agreement you eventually come up with so WIN US BACK...

    just a thought

  7. #7

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Yeah, the players. As soon as they walked away from the mediated talks to run out and decertify they showed they never had any other intention but to punt it to Judge Doty's court.
    That is not even close to how the story panned out.

    1) Before they walked away from the table they asked for the "numbers" over the last several years to verify that the NFL needed an extra 1 BILLION dollars to operate....in return they were given ...one...piece...of ...paper. With two numbers per year.

    2) Before they walked they PROVED in court that the NFL had illegally financed a "planned" lockout.

    3) Before they walked, the owners purposefully sabatoged the talks by rudely degrading players while in negotiations , making any chance of civil discourse, an impossibility.

    I do agree that the players did themselves no favors by walking away...but I think that the evidence does support the union's insinuation that the owners never intended to fairly arbitrate for a new contract.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="Steelerone67 is an unknown quantity at this point"> Steelerone67's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Yeah, the players. As soon as they walked away from the mediated talks to run out and decertify they showed they never had any other intention but to punt it to Judge Doty's court.
    You mean as soon as the deadline was over and the owners were still hiding things and not taking the players needs in to consideration as much as they should, the players did the only thing they could do to protect themselves decertify. It’s the owner’s fault they hid info the players wanted to make an educated decision about what they deserve. If they wanted to 100% decertify from the beginning they would have never gone to mediation tables and agreed to the extension they would have just done it. Tell the owners that 500 mil off the top instead of 1 billion and tell them to shove the 18 game schedule up there ass cause the only way it makes sense is if they get rid of half of the pre season work outs and half of the preseason games. AND THEN I’m sure the players will have no problem with coming back to work.

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    Administrator Array title="Texasteel has a reputation beyond repute"> Texasteel's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    The players union differs with the common union in a few ways, but the largest is pay scale. In the union I am a member of, and the ones I know of, pay scale is set by the contract by seniority, sometimes, but mostly the type of work. The idea of one member negotiating a different contract than another doesn't happen. In fact in my union this practice is strictly forbidden.

    There are in fact other leagues to play in, and have been leagues in the past that just could not make a go of it. Therefor I would say the a player has two choices. Stay where they are and get payed extremely handsomely, or go somewhere else and make much much less. This also is often a choice us little people have to make.

    By the way I do think there is enough blame in this thing to go around.

    AML

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    Senior Member Array title="Steelerone67 is an unknown quantity at this point"> Steelerone67's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    True. But the players IMO as human beings you know people like you and me regular working folk THEY DONT GIVE A SHIT WHAT THE FANS OR WHAT THE OWNERS SAY! They are doing a job that they get paid for. Now the contract is up and like any group that feels underappreciated they are fighting for what they want and what they feel they deserve. I’m sure as players of the NFL they will say they care about the fans and what they go through and their struggles, because they have to but as normal self centered human beings they will fight tooth and nail for what they want. And as for the owners imagine them the same as the US government THEY DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE LITTLE PEOPLE/FANS. The government doesn’t wana hear shit from you they just want you to pay taxes and be quite well guess what... THE OWNERS WANT YOU TO BUY TICKETS AND OVER PRICED SNACKS AND SHUT THE FUCK UP that’s all they want. Us fans though on the other hand just want football and guess what WE DONT GIVE A FUCK WHAT THE PLAYERS OR THE OWNERS WANT! All we want is to watch football right? We don’t care that Darrell Revis gets paid 2 mil a year and holds out for 8 mil a year they just wana see FOOTBALL. BAM! I just explained how the world works, everyone wants what they want AND FUCK ANY ONE WHO GETS IN THERE WAY! WORD!

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    That is not even close to how the story panned out.

    1) Before they walked away from the table they asked for the "numbers" over the last several years to verify that the NFL needed an extra 1 BILLION dollars to operate....in return they were given ...one...piece...of ...paper. With two numbers per year.

    There was way more to it than that. You're drininking the players koolaid.

    2)Before they walked they PROVED in court that the NFL had illegally financed a "planned" lockout.


    Bullshit, just because they prepared for that possibility doesnt' mean it was their intent. That would be akin to saying that because a person buys car insurance it was their intention to wreck.


    3) Before they walked, the owners purposefully sabatoged the talks by rudely degrading players while in negotiations , making any chance of civil discourse, an impossibility.

    Lol, one owner made some off the cuff remarks. Again more Union nonsense!

    I do agree that the players did themselves no favors by walking away...but I think that the evidence does support the union's insinuation that the owners never intended to fairly arbitrate for a new contract.
    The owners are asking for a giveback, I understand the difficutly that poses, particuarly when you're dealing with 32 seperate entities that aren't into revealing all their financial dealings. But I believe it to be a neccessary adjustment, and one that the players have no intention of recognizing until after their financial resolve is tested. Thus we are where we are today.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  12. #12

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    The owners are asking for a giveback, I understand the difficutly that poses, particuarly when you're dealing with 32 seperate entities that aren't into revealing all their financial dealings. But I believe it to be a neccessary adjustment, and one that the players have no intention of recognizing until after their financial resolve is tested. Thus we are where we are today.

    The players have said they are willing to renegotiate the total revenue....it will never be possible without tranparent number crunching. The latest revelation that the NFl was "fudging" the numbers that they gave to the owners...just muddies the water.

    Dont get me wrong...I am not all "pro-union"....but in this case the problem was caused (and planned for) before anyone sat down at the negotiating table.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="BnG_Hevn has much to be proud of"> BnG_Hevn's Avatar
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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    I just don't get it. How could ANYONE be in favor of the players - they have NO RIGHT to set their own salary. Whatever they DO have is strictly set by the owners.

    Again, the owners should just start from scratch. The players WILL come back b/c they make too much money not to as it is. The owners could honor current contracts and pay players with new contracts what they want and if the players don't like it then they can walk.

    The owners just need to work together is all. Hell, they could create their own salary cap between themselves and work within it. I just don't get how the players think they can dictate anything.

  14. #14

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by BnG_Hevn View Post
    I just don't get it. How could ANYONE be in favor of the players - they have NO RIGHT to set their own salary. Whatever they DO have is strictly set by the owners.

    Again, the owners should just start from scratch. The players WILL come back b/c they make too much money not to as it is. The owners could honor current contracts and pay players with new contracts what they want and if the players don't like it then they can walk.

    The owners just need to work together is all. Hell, they could create their own salary cap between themselves and work within it. I just don't get how the players think they can dictate anything.
    I do understand where you are coming from...and actually (at first) thought the same way. Then I began to realize that you cant compare pro athletes to commons joes like you and me.

    Sure, you can make the basic employee/employer comparisons but really that isnt even fair.

    1) As a player...you dont produce a product...you produce stats that quantify yourself , therefore...You ARE the product.

    2) If I put myself inthe owners shoes.... and I had employees come to me and say they were unhappy with their salaries and wanted me to open my books so that they could see what I was making....Then sure, I would tell them they could find another job.

    BUT.....If the situation was such as what is going in the NFL ... and I had admitted that my business was earning a very good profit... but that I wanted to cut the salaries of all my employees by 20% under my promise that I would invest the money back into the busines in order to make LARGER profits that I had no intention of sharing with the employees...Well, then I can imagine the employees might be a little upset.

    If I wanted to prove to them that it was somehow a necessity....well then you can bet the farm that I would sit down with them and turn over every piece of evidence....every dollar.... that I had on the books to show them that my demands were justifiable. Hell....If i can proof it to myself, what do I have to hide by showing them the numbers.


    In that regards.....EVERYONE needs to look at the evidence as to who is being more honest and open in these negotiations....

    1)these are the same 31 NFL owners who have been found in Federal Court to be guilty of conspiring and planning/funding for a lockout. They had no intention of negotiating in good faith.

    2)They were also found to have committed contract fraud against the players by keeping profits that, according to the CBA, had to be negotiated with for the players.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    The players have said they are willing to renegotiate the total revenue....it will never be possible without tranparent number crunching. The latest revelation that the NFl was "fudging" the numbers that they gave to the owners...just muddies the water.

    Dont get me wrong...I am not all "pro-union"....but in this case the problem was caused (and planned for) before anyone sat down at the negotiating table.
    The opt out clause was built into the last CBA. So yeah the owners planned for a potential lockout, particuarly when the last deal proved to be one that wasn't to their liking, one that could potentially lead the NFL down the road of MLB and the NBA. But at the same token it was never their desire, what they've always wanted is a new CBA that is less slanted towards the players.

    You don't think the players are getting too big a slice of the pie then answer me this. Why aren't any of the NFL's current free agents going to Canada to play? As recently as the early 90's Canada was able to compete with the NFL for some free agents. Rocket Ismail spurned the NFL to sign a multi million dollar deal with the Toronto Argonauts. Several years before that the Steelers lost their first round pick Keith Gary to the Montreal franchise in the CFL.

    Or how about this, knowing that the possibility of a labor disagreement was high as far back as two years ago, and knowing America's love for the game, why didn't some entrepreneurs get together and start up a rival proffessional football league to start up now?

    The USFL was actually gaining in popularity back in the 80's before Donald Trump screwed the league over by throwing all the league's egg's in the litigation basket against the NFL.

    Anyway getting back to the present, the reason no new league is emerging to take advantage of the void created by the current labor unrest is because they can't afford the players!!!

    In 1980 the average NFL player was making 80k a year, the highest paid player was Walter Peyton at 475 thou. Therefore the USFL could compete for average players, and then go a little over the the top for a seelct star here and there. They poached Reggie White, Jim Kelly, Steve Young, Hershell Walker, and several other top lines players.

    Nowdays the top NFL stars get over 20 million, the average salary in 2010 was 1.9 million.. Who the hell can compete with that?

    So anyway long story short, call this a neccessary market correction. The owners are playing to win this time, they'll tie this up in court forever with appeals if they have to.

    In my opinion the players need to get back to mediation, argue like hell, get what they can' but realize they're not going to walk away with all the chips at the end this time. I think another 3 or 4 weeks of heated negotiatians now will net them more than what they'll get if this goes to a lock out or gets tied up in the courts indefinetly.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  16. #16

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    The owners are asking for a giveback, I understand the difficutly that poses, particuarly when you're dealing with 32 seperate entities that aren't into revealing all their financial dealings. But I believe it to be a neccessary adjustment, and one that the players have no intention of recognizing until after their financial resolve is tested. Thus we are where we are today.
    Bullshit, just because they prepared for that possibility doesnt' mean it was their intent. That would be akin to saying that because a person buys car insurance it was their intention to wreck.
    Its not illegal to buy insurance...it IS illegal to do what the owners were trying to do. If you can show me a court case that someone lost because they bought car insurance...then you have a point. Until then, you are making silly ill-informed comparisons.

    Please be fair if you wish to debate the topic.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Its not illegal to buy insurance...it IS illegal to do what the owners were trying to do. If you can show me a court case that someone lost because they bought car insurance...then you have a point.

    Are the owners going to be arrested then?


    First off that decision by the owners was originally upheld by the special master assigned to the case, and then overturned by Doty, and is currently being appealled. To say what the owners did there was illegal is a misrepresentation of the facts.

    Until then, you are making silly ill-informed comparisons.Please be fair if you wish to debate the topic.[/
    No that's your opinion. Just because you're a moderater doesn't mean you can belittle and talk down to me. Or it shouldn't anyway.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  18. #18

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    The opt out clause was built into the last CBA. So yeah the owners planned for a potential lockout, particuarly when the last deal proved to be one that wasn't to their liking, one that could potentially lead the NFL down the road of MLB and the NBA. But at the same token it was never their desire, what they've always wanted is a new CBA that is less slanted towards the players.

    .
    You cant compare the NFL to the NBA or MLB. Ther is no salary cap in baseball and there is no "soft" cap like that in which the NBA has implemented.

    If you really looked into the problem with the CBA...it has less to due with what the players are making then it has to do with the old "revenue sharing" plan among the owners. With the bottom 17 teams getting a portion of the money made by the top 15 teams. Those teams (like the Bengals) who refuse to put a larger portion of their profit back into the team are "stealing" from owners like Jerry Jones who invests large portions of his profits back into his freanchise.


    You don't think the players are getting too big a slice of the pie then answer me this. Why aren't any of the NFL's current free agents going to Canada to play? As recently as the early 90's Canada was able to compete with the NFL for some free agents. Rocket Ismail spurned the NFL to sign a multi million dollar deal with the Toronto Argonauts. Several years before that the Steelers lost their first round pick Keith Gary to the Montreal franchise in the CFL.

    Or how about this, knowing that the possibility of a labor disagreement was high as far back as two years ago, and knowing America's love for the game, why didn't some entrepreneurs get together and start up a rival proffessional football league to start up now?
    The answer:

    1)He probably doesnt "immediately" need the money.
    2) Why risk an injury playing in a $50,000 a year league...and risk the future of your 1,000,000 dollar job?

    ....Thats just common sense.


    In 1980 the average NFL player was making 80k a year, the highest paid player was Walter Peyton at 475 thou. Therefore the USFL could compete for average players, and then go a little over the the top for a seelct star here and there. They poached Reggie White, Jim Kelly, Steve Young, Hershell Walker, and several other top lines players.

    Nowdays the top NFL stars get over 20 million, the average salary in 2010 was 1.9 million.. Who the hell can compete with that?

    The market dictates the salary....and its these same owners who are signing their contracts, KNOWING that they will reap what they sow in profit.

    Why do they pay these players so much?....because you and I plant our butts in a seat at $100 a pop. Not to see a owner....but rather to see a Hines Ward.

    So anyway long story short, call this a neccessary market correction. The owners are playing to win this time, they'll tie this up in court forever with appeals if they have to.

    In my opinion the players need to get back to mediation, argue like hell, get what they can' but realize they're not going to walk away with all the chips at the end this time. I think another 3 or 4 weeks of heated negotiatians now will net them more than what they'll get if this goes to a lock out or gets tied up in the courts indefinetly

    Again...I agree with you. The players should have never walked away. As far as "market corrections" the players have been all for a rookie salary cap.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

  19. #19
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Why do they pay these players so much?....because you and I plant our butts in a seat at $100 a pop. Not to see a owner....but rather to see a Hines Ward.
    We pay to see the laundry. Before Hines Ward it was Yancey Thigpen, before Yancey it was Louis Lipps, before Lipps it was Stallworth and Swann, and Shanklin and Lewis, and before them Roy Jefferson and Buddy Dial etc....

    Players are transient, it's the laundry we root for in the end.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  20. #20

    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    We pay to see the laundry. Before Hines Ward it was Yancey Thigpen, before Yancey it was Louis Lipps, before Lipps it was Stallworth and Swann, and Shanklin and Lewis, and before them Roy Jefferson and Buddy Dial etc....

    Players are transient, it's the laundry we root for in the end.
    Wrong.

    I will always back my Steelers, but if they start sucking...I will cheer them on (or shake my head at them) from my living room couch. Most people wont drop $100-$200 dollars a pop to watch "laundry" that is being worn by bad players.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Senior Member Array title="Butch has a reputation beyond repute"> Butch's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Just my 2cents on the whole insurance thing.

    I see what the owners did with the t.v. revenues as being similar to insurance fraud similar to buying life insurance on someone you plan on doing away with, you know the outcome before you buy the insurance.

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Wrong.

    I will always back my Steelers, but if they start sucking...I will cheer them on (or shake my head at them) from my living room couch. Most people wont drop $100-$200 dollars a pop to watch "laundry" that is being worn by bad players.
    So who said Ward's replacement is going to be bad? The Steelers win because they have a sound orginization from top to bottom. That wont change when the current group of players leaves. And funny enough the Steelers usually play most of those players "reasonable salaries".
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  23. #23
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: "If the players don't like it, they can go find other jobs."

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    Just my 2cents on the whole insurance thing.

    I see what the owners did with the t.v. revenues as being similar to insurance fraud similar to buying life insurance on someone you plan on doing away with, you know the outcome before you buy the insurance.
    I consider it more like taking a parachute on a plane you're about to hijack.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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