I had a discussion the other day on Roethlisberger and Rivers, and if we made to any person, Roethlisberger is not the same level as Rivers.
Rodgers was also discussion about this, but if you want to see the full discussion that I had the other time, go to link.
My nick is the same as to forum.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB...r=asc&start=60
When ever anyone says Rivers is better just show them this
Umm... even though Rivers is a great QB and is a great fit for the Chargers, I'd still take Ben over him and everyone else in that discussion you had. Ben is the definition of clutch, we've seen this countless times and will until he retires. Here's another thing, stick any QB in the league today behind our line and see if they can actually do good. Peyton, Tom, etc, I really don't think anyone could handle that.
Array title="ALLD has a reputation beyond repute">
BB = 2 Super Bowl wins
Rivers = bupkis SB wins
Brady on his butt with no OL = Mr. Interception
All Defense!
Array title="salamander has a reputation beyond repute">
I'll take Ben and the two SB wins over Rivers any day.
Some comment that RAVINGMADD said.
Ben winning Super Bowls doesn't magically make his play that much better. Rivers and Rodgers have both outperformed him in the regular season and post season. Inversely, because they haven't been to a Super Bowl doesn't make them any worse players. Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl, too but no one is going to say he is better than Rivers or Rodgers.
I would have close to the same ranking as you, but the only difference is that I would put Rodgers as 1a and Rivers as 1b.
They are all close to the same level, but the fact that they are overwhelmingly favored by everyone else should just show you that maybe your opinion that Ben is the best QB is a bit biased.
Both Rivers and Rodgers (albeit in one game) have played better then Ben in the playoffs, but lost.
In their one head to head matchup in the playoffs, Rivers played way better with his team only giving him 15 yds rushing, while they gave up 146 yds and 2 td's just to Willie Parker. You didn't win that game and go to the Super Bowl because of Ben Roethlisberger and the Chargers didn't lose because of Rivers.
Rodgers had an incredible comeback in his one playoff appearance and you have to take into account that he didn't throw a single interception in the red zone last year and 20 TD's in the red zone. That shows me that he is good under pressure and is an incredibly smart QB. I don't think because of the fumble in OT that he is going to have a problem with pressure situations.
They both have played better then Roethlisberger in the playoffs and regular season. The best players are the ones that are consistently better and I see that from Rodgers and Rivers, but I won't see that from Roethlisberger. From Roethlisberger, I see a guy who should be thanking his lucky stars for being drafted by the Steelers. He makes a lot of bad decisions that he gets away with and gets a lot of help from being on a great team. We will see over the next few years who is more consistent, but for now I'm gonna go with Rodgers and Rivers.
Pedestrian Stats? Is 14 for 19(73.7% completions) 264 yds and 3 tds to 1 int to beat Peyton Manning in the playoffs in his second season starting pedestrian? Not to mention that he beat Peyton again the next year. How about 21 for 35 for 308 yds 3td and 1 int losing to Pittsburgh in 2008 when Ben had only 181 yds and 1 TD. Those are more pedestrian stats then Rivers. Rivers hasn't thrown under 200 yds in a playoff game yet.
Yeah he has had his struggles, but he has also lost when he played very well. They lost most of those games because of Kaeding last year and their defense last year and the years before.
I don't know why anyone would want Ben over Rodgers. In his first two years starting he has thrown over 4,000 yds and last year didn't throw a single interception in the red zone. Ben until last year hadn't broken 4,000 yds and relied heavily on defense and the running game. Remember those 23 picks in 2006. In the years that they have relied more heavily on Ben and the only years he had over 20tds they didn't do anything. In 2008 they won the Super Bowl and during the regular season he threw 17tds to 15 ints. When they have relied on Ben to do anything besides one drive at the end of games they have lost. What does that tell you about ben? His stats don't scream great QB to me. 17 tds in both those seasons he won super bowls aren't good QB numbers.
You can argue he is a better QB because he won Super Bowls when he actually got them to the Super Bowl throwing the ball like a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. Jim Plunkett won two Super Bowls too. Is he a better QB then Rivers or Rodgers? Is he better then Peyton because his record in the Super Bowl is 2-0 while Peyton is only 1-1? Super Bowl wins are more team accomplishments, especially when you only throw 17 TD's in the regular season as the QB of a Super Bowl winner. Is Trent Dilfer a great QB too?
I was saying they were close before, but now that I think of it Rodgers and Rivers are way better then any of those other QB's. If their teams can be as good as they are, we will see both of them win a Super Bowl before it's all said and done.
I didn't say that he wasn't a factor in the success of the Steelers because he obviously was. I'm arguing that because he has two Super Bowl wins doesn't mean he is a better QB. When he was relied on to win with his arm in the regular season he didn't get it done. In his best statistical years, the steelers didn't make it to the playoffs. When they did make it to the playoffs and win the Super Bowl it was more because of great defense and a great running game then because of Big Ben slinging it around for 300yd and 3 tds every game. Until last year his stats weren't even that good besides one season with 32 TD's. Without those years he wouldn't even be close to this conversation, but everyones argument for him is that he has two Super Bowl wins. When he actually started throwing the ball around more they didn't even make the playoffs.
And they also didn't win just because of Roethlisberger. 48% completions against the Ravens in 08 AFC Championship isn't good at all. The one TD pass he made to Holmes was a really dumb lob into the air and he got lucky because Fabian Washington fell down. Had Washington made the pick, they wouldn't have even made it to the Super Bowl that year. They lost to Jacksonville in 07 and Ben threw 3 INT. That loss had to a lot to do with Ben. In his first Super Bowl he really stunk it up with 42% completions 123 yds and 0 TDs to 2 INTs. You can't account that Super Bowl to Big Ben taking the team on his shoulders and winning that game. They won the Super Bowl that year more despite him then because of him. His play in the playoffs hasn't been that great and it has been very inconsistent.
Actually he did have some of his worst games at the worst times, they just happened to win those games. In the 08 game in the AFC Championship against Baltimore, he played terrible. Also, in his first Super Bowl ever against Seattle, he played terrible. He also threw 3 pick, lost a fumble and was sacked 6 times losing 40 yds against Jacksonville in the postseason in 2007. So in reality, he only had good postseason games against Cincinnati and Denver in 05, a decent game against Indianapolis in 05 (where they ran the ball 34 times with Parker and Bettis), a pretty good game he played in 08 against San Diego (that was won more because Willie Parker ran for 146 YDs and 2 TD's and they shut down the run), and a decent game against Arizona in the Super Bowl that he barely won on the last drive and got a lot of help from Santonio Holmes and Arizona making stupid penalties. He hasn't played all that impressively besides a couple games where he made comeback wins, usually with help from penalties, his ability to break tackles and Santonio Holmes. We will see how things go, but as of right now, he isn't all that good.
Incredibly what? Lucky? Stupid? I'm not just looking at stats. do you remember that pass? It was a lob straight up into the air. I could have intercepted that pass and Fabian Washington certainly could have had he not fallen down.
I give Ben credit, I never said he wasn't good at all. He is a good QB, my argument is that Rivers and Rodgers are better. He is the best QB in the league at breaking tackles and making something happen out of nothing, but in terms of decision making and passing ability he isn't the best.
Comparing Dilfer to Roethlisberger is not for lack of respect. I'm just saying they both won Super Bowls because they were good enough game managers and they had good defenses, but that doesn't make them great QB's. He deserves credit for 2008, but not so much for 2005. I don't know that I would compare him to Elway at this point, but with that and the Packers game all your looking at is potential and I agree that Roethlisberger has a lot of potential if he can stay out of trouble, but I doubt he has more potential then Rivers or Rodgers.
Stop looking through your Black and Yellow shades and saying that Ben is better then Rodgers or Rivers, when he clearly isn't.
If you are looking at injuries, that game in the AFC Championship against the Ravens looks even worse for Ben, especially since our secondary was so banged up. If we were healthy we would have won that game.
Anyway, I'm not saying that he was the biggest reason they lost, I'm just saying that defense and running game is the Steelers bread and butter and they didn't win two Super Bowls just because of spectacular play from Ben. If they had to rely just on Ben, they would have won 0 Super Bowls.
He played horrible in that game. sure it was against the Ravens, but it was against their backup cornerbacks and everyone on that team was banged up because we didn't have a bye since week 2. You are entitled to your opinion, but you should also take into account your bias since you are a Steelers fan. I don't understand why it comes down to me being a Ravens fan and isn't about you being a Steelers fan at all. I'm arguing for players on the Chargers and Packers. It's not like I came in here saying that Flacco is the best QB.
What does that have to do with the pass?
It wasn't a risk, it was a bad pass that he got lucky didn't get intercepted and even luckier that Holmes was able to take it for a TD.
He did well in the playoffs and horrible in the Super Bowl that year. You said he doesn't play bad in the most important games, but that was the most important game he had played in at that point in his career.
But still a horrible pass. Really, the reason why I like Rivers and Rodgers is that they are consistent and have shown superior ability in passing the ball and making decisions. Roethlisberger has his strength's too- big arm, ability to break tackles, but Rodgers is a way better decision maker and Rivers has better accuracy. Rodgers is probably pretty close to Peyton Manning in terms of decision making ability, maybe not in overall football know-how because he is still young, but when it comes to who I want making decisions in the red zone, I would take Rodgers over just about everyone.
Yeah, that is Ben Roethlisberger's strength, not his decision making skills. That's why I prefer Rodgers over all of them. I like Rivers a lot too, and yeah he has had his antics on the field, but I'd prefer that over Ben's antics off the field. Those decision making skills and his decision making skills on the field are the same problem. I like his toughness and his grit and he has a great arm, but in terms of decision making, Romo, Rodgers and Rivers all are a step above him.
So because of one play he isn't that good? Stats aren't the most important thing, but they play a big part in determining a players future success. Remember that Rodgers has only started two seasons in this league and already has better stats then most QB's in the league. He is going to be as good as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning before his career is over.
Rivers isn't that good because he threw an interception.
Ben threw an interception at the end of the second half of the Super against the Cards, but his team picked him up and Harrison picked it off and ran it back for 100 yards. That was huge for that game. The overwhelming pattern that has formed here is that even when Ben screws up, he gets helped out because he is on a great team, not because he himself is that much better than Rivers, Rodgers or Romo. The other three lose in the playoffs because they don't have the team around them that Ben had when he won his Super Bowls.
Rivers throws for less attempts than Ben and still has better numbers.
Sorry numbers are critical in the outcome of a game, unless you have the top 3 defense like Ben has for 4 of his 6 years and the 2 years he didn't they missed the playoffs. 1 of the years Ben had his best season statistically.
Ben had worst S winning performance for a QB ever and they still won.
Ben had one of his 2 worst years in 08 and they still win a SB with that vaunted #1 defense again.
Good for Ben, he comes through alot in the clutch. Maybe, just maybe it's because he's not asked to do much most of the game and the majority of the game is not on his arm and the result on his back. He has the luxury of having a elite defense nearly every year.
Where as someone like Rivers from the first second of the game to the last, the entire game is on his back and arm and he has to make big plays all game long, not just end of the game.
Since 2006 When Rivers became a starter, only Peyton has more 4th quarter game winning drives.
Only Brady has a better winning percentage.
Stop putting so much stock in one play. 1 play i about timing, opportunity, positioning, lucky, momentum.
A career of consistency is about sheer skill and ability.
Ben had a epic SB winning drive. But without Harrison's int for a td end of the half, it wouldn't of mattered, game over and Ben never had the chance.
If not for the big plays by Parker,defense and Randle El and Ward no SB in 05 either.
I've been bamboozled I thought Rivers was the obvious choice for #1, in the NFL let alone in this thread. EGG ON MY FACE!
POP QUIZ HOT SHOTS... WHat other QB ever has had 4 year starting and never missed the playoffs and had back to back 104 QB rating seasons with the 31st ranked rushing offense.
_________________
Yeah of course, it's me that wrong. I don't give that much credit to Aikman. He wasn't anything special. Montana was good, but I don't consider him the best. Manning is probably one of the best, and yeah he has had things to work with on offense, but their defense certainly isn't the Steelers defense. He hasn't had the running game that Ben had in 2005, either.
About your earlier question I agree that your lack of success last year wasn't because of Ben, but my argument is that he won his Super Bowls more because of his defense, than because of his individual play. When he did win, he didn't do it by passing for 300 yds and 3 TD's almost every game and Peyton has. Thats the difference. He threw 17 TD's in both of his Super Bowl winning seasons. It's laughable that you are trying to argue that those seasons are the reason he is better than Rivers or Rodgers.
Of course it's there talent. But they need a talented QB to make the throws to them that Rivers does. Have you seen some of the vertical passes in absolutely ridiculous coverage Rivers has made on them??
Talented skill position players don't throw to themselve and it's not like past 2 years VJ has had a running game to help him on the outside or Gates in the middle.
There is a reason Gates, Floyd and VJ have a ridiculous group YPA.
Ben's defense doesn't need Ben to be a great QB for them to be a elite defense.
Wow. If Rivers had Plaxico and Hines Ward in his prime he would have had more than 17 TD's. Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes, same thing. Vincent Jackson has a lot of talent and Gates is the best, but they wouldn't have the success they have without good quarterback play.
The defense helps Ben and his skill has no affect on those players. Thats what King Of Stats is saying. If Rivers isn't Rivers those players aren't getting the numbers to get these accolades. Without Ben, the defense is still going to get the turnovers and help win games.
Neither Rivers or Rodger has choked at all. They have played very well in the playoffs. Rodgers had one great game that was lost because of a fumble not an interception. I don't consider that choking. they blitzed a corner and he didn't get blocked. Not Aaron Rodgers fault.
And if his Super Bowls aren't why he is better, then why is he better? Because of a few games he played well in that happened to be in the playoffs, but in the biggest of those games (the Super Bowl) he played terrible. You act like he is always clutch in the biggest games and plays great, but that isn't the case. He is very lucky. Rivers and Rodgers haven't had the opportunities that Ben has, but that doesn't mean they couldn't perform in those clutch situations. It's about consistency and so far Rivers and Rodgers (in his two years) have been more consistent. They make way better decisions and are more accurate. I want either of them on my team before Ben, regardless of off the field issues.
Why do we keep track of stats if they don't mean anything. They are the best way to determine individual performance. A lot of the team aspect comes into play and some players stats are hurt or helped by play of the team, but winning has a lot less to do with individual performance than stats and way more about team performance.
I agree they aren't perfect, especially in football, but it is the best way. What is another better way to determine individual performance? Stats definitely are a better thing to look at then Super Bowl wins.
All you do is list a bunch of facts. That certainly isn't going to make me think that Roethlisberger is any better. His interception wasn't any more expensive then the fumble Roethlisberger had against the Jags or any of the 3 INT's he had that game. I don't think Rivers has had three interceptions in one game in his career, let alone in the playoffs. It wouldn't have been any more expensive than any other INT Ben has thrown in the playoffs had they not won.
Then what is the best way to determine individual performance?
I'm arguing that you can't put Ben over Rodgers and Rivers because of his Super Bowl wins, which were team wins. I feel that the superior stats of Rivers and Rodgers are a better way to determine their individual skill, then Ben's team wins. I don't really put as much stock in clutch play because that is even more set up by others around you than individual stats. You have to actually be in position to win the game to get a chance to make a clutch play. There is a difference between a player who chokes whenever he gets a chance and a player like Ben, but when two players really haven't choked you can't say that Ben is so much better in clutch situations and they are both choke artists.
He has had horrible playoff games. He isn't any better then those two. You will see when Rivers and Rodgers continue to consistently play better and win more. If this offseason is any indication, Big Ben's luck has run out.
It was all the comments RAVINGMADD.
A true supporters of Ravens frustrating!
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Championships won is the ultimate measure of a player and team. A good player never puts his individual statistics above the team. Ask Terry Bradshaw yourself.
All Defense!
He's also a blithering idiot.Originally Posted by polamalubeast
In 7 career playoff games, Rivers has a 3-4 win/loss record, has gone 134-229 (58.5%) for 1820 yards, 8 TD passes, 9 INTs, and a 79.2 QB rating. He defines this as "playing very well in the playoffs."
In 10 career playoff games (including both Super Bowls), Ben has an 8-2 win/loss record, has gone 172-278 (61.9%) for 2239 yards, 15 TD passes, 12 INTs, and an 87.2 QB rating. He defines this as, in so many words, "an inaccurate game manager whose defense carries him."
That Ravens fan has absolutely no clue as to what the hell he's talking about.
gotta admitt that I thought Rivers would be another Danny Weurffel......I was wrong, but still happy we didnt draft him. I hate his attitude. Comes off like a suck at times.
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Not even close I would take Ben anyday. Like El-Gonzo said his attitude sucks I just don't like Rivers.
The steelers have score 268 points in 10 playoff games with Roethlisberger as QB.
This is really excellent.
To say he played badly against the Ravens, it's really stupid.
He had a great game against a great defense.
And the steelers have had a bad running game in 2008.
Stats are for losers it makes them feel better about themselves and their team.
Also remember that great players don't always play great they play great when they have to.
Ben has more come from behind victories than any other QB at tha same place in their career. Sure his Defense and supporting cast help but he is a huge reason for us making and winning Superbowls unlike what rivers and rogers do. Rogers lost to the G-men in Greenbay just a few years back when the G-men went to the Superbowl and won. How's that for performance under pressure???
I'm sticking by my guns, as we had this same conversation over on the board whose name shall not be mentioned . . . .
Rivers is about as overrated an NFL QB as there is, and as big of a hair in the throat choke job as Tony HoHoHomo, as well as an immature jackass.
CANCER - YOU PICKED THE WRONG BITCH!!!
well actually Rodgers was sitting on the bench that game. Brett Favre lost GB that game not Rodgers...
But yea my opinion is: Big Ben>A-Rod>Rivers
crap you're right...my bust...my excuse it was early in the morning so I wasn't quite in my right mind yet.
i may be wrong but didnt ben beat rivers twice in the playoffs?
"Zeds dead baby, Zeds dead." - Butch
In fact, they have faced in the playoffs in 2008 and steelers have won the game.
But the steelers have won three games against the chargers since 2008.
But the steelers are classified 19th and chargers first.
Wish Ben would have kneed the little prick in the cahoonans. Sorry - can't stomach Rivers.
CANCER - YOU PICKED THE WRONG BITCH!!!
Wish Ben would have kneed the little prick in the cahoonans. Sorry - can't stomach Rivers.[/QUOTE]
The feeling is mutual, cant stand that loudmouth loser. Even some NC State fans I know dont like the guy...
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