No mosque at Ground Zero

[SteelCityMom]

Well, there you have it. Aside from the “National Christian Party”, the term isn’t used in the document except in relation to the warped theology that “Jesus wasn’t Jewish”, and similar nonsense. Baptists and missionaries are absent as well.

They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.

If you like these guys, you’ll love the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his muslim Waffen SS divisions that operated in Yugoslavia. Wait a second! Christians and muslims persecuting Jews? And what about those Serbs going all holocaustal on the poor Bosnian muslims. I’ll bet they’re “Christians” too.

Both always did like persecuting the other...doesn't surprise me that there are instances where they "team up".

“I've never conversed with a KKK member”, but “they all (or most I guess) were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists…”. I have never talked to a Martian, but I’m absolutely certain they’re all green.

This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.

For me, it was the “lunatic” part. Again, I used to work a few blocks down Geary Blvd from said lunatics. Knew them well.

Africa? I think “lunatic” is the operable word there as well. Was that racist of me?

Yeah they're lunatics. Lunatics who thought/think they are doing God's will.

The Crusades? You may recall that the Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back from the muslims. Recorded history frames them as the offenders, a theme still with us.

Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels". There was that pesky 4th Crusade where the "Christian" Crusaders decided to ditch their attempt at invading Egypt (Muslim land) and went ahead and destroyed not one, but two Christian cities...for money and power. One of them was Constantinople. Perhaps you've heard of it? It was eventually overrun by Turks a couple hundred years later. Lot of people killed and tortured there though. Great "Christian" tragedy.

The great historian of the Crusades, Sir Steven Runciman, wrote that the sack of Constantinople is “unparalleled in history”.
“For nine centuries,” he goes on, “the great city had been the capital of Christian civilisation. It was filled with works of art that had survived from ancient Greece and with the masterpieces of its own exquisite craftsmen. The Venetians wherever they could seized treasures and carried them off. But the Frenchmen and Flemings were filled with a lust for destruction: they rushed in a howling mob down the streets and through the houses, snatching up everything that glittered and destroying whatever they could not carry, pausing only to murder or to rape, or to break open the wine-cellars. Neither monasteries nor churches nor libraries were spared. In St Sophia itself drunken soldiers could be seen tearing down the silken hangings and pulling the silver iconostasis to pieces, while sacred books and icons were trampled under foot. While they drank from the altar-vessels a prostitute sang a ribald French song on the Patriarch’s throne. Nuns were ravished in their convents. Palaces and hovels alike were wrecked. Wounded women and children lay dying in the streets. For three days the ghastly scenes continued until the huge and beautiful city was a shambles. Even after order was restored, citizens were tortured to make them reveal treasures they had hidden.

Steven Runciman, History of the Crusades, Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, 1965, vol 3, pp. 111-128.

The inquisition, or more correctly inquisitions? The terms “Christian” and “Catholic” don’t always coincide, but I will defer to any Catholics that may want to comment.

Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.

But back to the original point of the thread, which is the poignant message of the video. Ground Zero exists because of islam. Put another way, if there was no islam, there would be no Ground Zero. Regardless of your ideology or political disposition, I would hope you could make that behavioral distinction. muslims have no business building anything remotely representing islam anywhere near Ground Zero. And shame on us if we allow them to.

Is that statement suggesting the ban of islam? No, but if history teaches us anything, that is probably a consideration.

Yes, I get that part...and I understand you're objection to it, I really do. I just don't agree with a broad based bashing of all muslims.

History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

[Vincent]

Vincent, I respect you're opinion...but by some of the tone of your posts, you either don't respect mine or don't think I hold the intelligence to back mine up with loads of facts in a 20-30 minute internet search.

I respect your opinion as well Mom. I can be abrupt. No excuse. I apologize.

All I can say to you though is it's extremely ignorant to think that the majority of people involved in these various groups aren't Christians, or at least don't think of themselves that way. And they have no qualms whatsoever over killing people who they think are not like them or go against God. I also in no way was attempting to lump these lunatics with everyday Christians who lead good lives.

Can we agree that there are, as you say, “everyday Christians who lead good lives”, and folks that for myriad reasons wear the label of Christian and do the things they do independent of Christianity? To be a Christian is a state of heart, soul, and spirit. It is the surrender of sin, acceptance by faith of forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus, and the rebirth as a person that separates himself from sin and earnestly follows his Lord. That’s where that term that irritates people comes from – “born again Christian”. By outward appearances there is a change of behavior that separates actual Christians from the label. But it is the internal change that manifests itself over time that is the difference. It has its own language. It can’t be faked. The imposters stand out to the genuine.

That would be too much like saying all muslims are evil because they have Islamic beliefs...which is one of the points I was arguing against by citing examples of Christian extremists.

I don’t believe all muslims are evil. I’ve known too many, not least of which was the best man at my nephew’s wedding last month. I have said that rank and file muslims are victims of a bad religion that not only abuses those around them but pits muslims against muslims in brutal carnage. The evil exists in their leadership and the extreme elements that they recruit and cultivate.

I know Hitler himself was, by his own words, anti-Christian...but he never made this publicly known until towards the end of his life. Hitler himself though was a master of propaganda, and a lot of it was aimed at swaying the opinions of Christians to his way of thinking.

We can agree on that. He didn’t need to make that confession. His deeds spoke for themselves.

...there were a lot of Christians (not all by any means) who bought into his anti-semetic tirades. Here's a good article I found on the subject. http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...iChristian.htm

The second article displays his mastery of rhetoric but reveals his deception of “his Lord’s” character. Any Christian would immediately see that he doesn’t speak the language. That so many couldn’t be deceived led to their deaths in the camps.

"he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion" (which he did...I found A LOT more examples, from his own mouth and from churches that supported his cause). I won't post the full text of these...there's way, way too much. I'll just list the links that have exact quotes.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...rChristian.htm
“The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession” You folks be “good Christians” and don’t confess your allegiance to anything but the party.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...Secularism.htm
“All of Culture Must Serve Our Mission - 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!" Oh Lord, I have $50 on the Steelers by 7 and I need it bad.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...ansGermany.htm
I have no apology to make for the Catholic church here. They can speak for themselves. The loyalty oath to hitler though, tips their hands.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...nReligious.htm
“Violence Must Have a Firm, Spiritual Base”. Yeah, I got yer ‘Christianity’ right here.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...giousFaith.htm
“Faith”. In what? Whom? Hollow sloganeering commensurate with “hope” and “change”.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...erFaithGod.htm
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” The words of a deist, and false rhetoric at that.

There's just so many!

I don’t see a Christian word in any of it. Deceptive rhetoric, yes. Deism, yes. Again, the real Christians knew he was a deceiver, so they had to go. We were warned – “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” I think hitler was among the fakes, but by no means even a “false Christ”. Those days are yet to come. And its going to be u-u-u-u-uhg-lee!

Again, apologies if anything offended you....but colossal ignorance it is not. There's plenty of proof on paper and tape that Hitler and the Nazi's used religious (specifically Christian) propaganda. Also, when I brought up that many Christians were killed as well, I brought it up in context that they didn't go along with his insane beliefs for a reason. They weren't killed because they were Christians, they were killed because they opposed what Hitler was doing. Big difference.

Religious rhetoric. Not Christian by any means. And Christians wouldn’t be deceived by it for a minute. It raises serious questions about those that were.

In a way, you are correct...more often than not you don't hear about a Christian taking his own life along with many others for a political end. Some will however (by the number of examples I've listed) kill others (sometimes many others) either for political ends or because they truly believe that is what God and Jesus want them to do. Again, I really think it's crazy to feel that muslim extremists are the only ones in history who have gone out and killed people in the name of their religion.

We disagree here. Christians don’t harm or kill people. Wearers of a label do. I haven’t met a Christian that had it in his being to intentionally harm another. That’s one of the ways you can tell them apart from the pretenders. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” There is no place to hide from those words.

There's good and bad people in all races, creeds, religions and walks of life.

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” A Christian will say “there but by the grace of God go I”.

You didn't look hard enough.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../para/nlft.htm
http://www.mapsofindia.com/tripura/g...ion-front.html

Different sources disagree on the “Christian” reference. The one I cited this afternoon http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper1564.html didn’t make a religious connection, but did point out that the leadership were given to double standards. The label can’t hide. They’re bad actors, to be sure. No pun relative to their porn.

They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.

They wore the label. Their behavior betrayed them as to what they were.

Continued in the next post...

[Vincent]

This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.

A Christian would never ever burn a cross. Such an act is every bit as evil as the hakenkreuz. Christians don’t beat or lynch people. Racist barbarians do. The democrats own that history. You will not find a mindset of moral or racial superiority in a Christian, rather quite the opposite. Part of the miracle of salvation is the realization that He saved a wretch like you.

Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels".

We all mistakenly take wearers of crosses at face value. Ozzy wears a cross.
Were the Crusades God inspired acts of Christian men? The only real answer to that lies in the disposition of the hearts of those individuals that participated. In the aggregate it was “Christiandom v islam” in a best of 7 series for all the marbles.

Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.

And then you have the Brits operating under the aegis of the church of England committing unholy carnage of their lowly neighbors the Scots, Irish, and Welsh. And on and on and on.

Again, the point of this thread was muslims building a mosque near Ground Zero and I defer to the wisdom of that lone Brit on the subject. The thread has evolved into a referendum on Christianity and that’s fine. I make no apology for the church and its sordid history. I am not “religious” by any stretch of the imagination. But I am a believer in the entirety of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ and try to live in accordance to it.

History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

The problem with “religion” is that it involves people. And people will be people regardless of the stripe they wear. Man's inhumanity to man seems to know no restraint or limit. That is why, in my limited capacity to navigate this life, I go by the behavior of people as the best indicator. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.”.