No mosque at Ground Zero

[Vincent]

Further to the previous...

“Background and Precursors to the Holocaust”. Good find. I’ll read that with interest.

“The roots of Romanian antisemitism are intertwined with the origins of the modern Romanian state and the emergence of the rich national cultural tradition that accompanied unification of the principalities, independence, and the creation of Greater Romania. The antisemitism that manifested itself in Romania between the two world wars grew directly from seeds sewn at the major turning points of the country’s development starting in the mid-nineteenth century. For reasons that may have differed from person to person or group to group, strong antisemitic currents were present in various forms and with varying intensity in the political, cultural and spiritual life of Romanian society for most of the century that preceded the accession to power of the National Christian Party in 1937, the installation of the Royal Dictatorship in 1938, and the Antonescu-Iron Guard National Legionary State in 1940—that is, for most of the century that culminated in the Holocaust.”

Blah, blah, blah…

“Nichifor Crainic (1889-1972) was another theoretician of religion whose work had an important influence on Cuza and on the younger generation that would assume the radical antisemitic banner in the interwar period. Crainic was Professor at the Faculty of Theology, University of Bucharest, which became a hotbed of antisemitism among university students. Crainic advocated creation of a Romanian spirit that was “antisemitic in theory and antisemitic in practice.” He applied his theological and rhetorical skills to breaking the Judeo-Christian relationship by arguing that the Old Testament was not Jewish, that Jesus had not been Jewish, and that the Talmud, which he saw as the incarnation of modern Jewry, was, first and foremost, a weapon to combat the Christian Gospel and to destroy Christians.

Crainic’s influence on his generation was substantial, as he was able to tap into the appeal of the mysticism and nationalism of Romanian Orthodox Christianity and use it to sway intellectual, student, and ordinary Christian citizen alike in favor of the racist, antisemitic movements that he saw as essential to secure the existence of Romania and the Romanian nation.”

Well, there you have it. Aside from the “National Christian Party”, the term isn’t used in the document except in relation to the warped theology that “Jesus wasn’t Jewish”, and similar nonsense. Baptists and missionaries are absent as well.

If you like these guys, you’ll love the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his muslim Waffen SS divisions that operated in Yugoslavia. Wait a second! Christians and muslims persecuting Jews? And what about those Serbs going all holocaustal on the poor Bosnian muslims. I’ll bet they’re “Christians” too.

I also never said that the KKK was a Christian church in itself

No, you didn’t. Nor did I say that you did. What I said was “The KKK had zero, nil, nada to do with any church or Christianity.” What you said was…

I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.

...but they all (or most I guess...I've never conversed with a KKK member), were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists, they formed a group and then killed a lot of people. If you want some proof of that, then I guess go talk to one of the nutty bastards. Better yet, talk to this a-hole.

“I've never conversed with a KKK member”, but “they all (or most I guess) were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists…”. I have never talked to a Martian, but I’m absolutely certain they’re all green.

As for the People's Temple...yes, they were a cult, but you're freaking delusional if you don't think they weren't Christian based. Jim Jones was a student pastor at a Methodist church before he left because they wouldn't allow blacks in the congregation. Heck, at one point the cult was called The Peoples Temple Christian Church Full Gospel. I don't know where you got the idea that just because he was a lunatic who formed his own lunatic church that it wasn't rooted in Christianity.

For me, it was the “lunatic” part. Again, I used to work a few blocks down Geary Blvd from said lunatics. Knew them well.

Africa? I think “lunatic” is the operable word there as well. Was that racist of me?

The Crusades? You may recall that the Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back from the muslims. Recorded history frames them as the offenders, a theme still with us.

The inquisition, or more correctly inquisitions? The terms “Christian” and “Catholic” don’t always coincide, but I will defer to any Catholics that may want to comment.

Also, before you go on to say that these Christian based extremist groups are more political than anything blah, blah, blah, I'd like to point out to you that religion and politics have gone hand in hand since man thought up the concept of religion. Always has been that way, always will be that way.

I’ll see your “blah, blah, blah”, and raise you a “nanny nanny boo-boo”.

I hate politics with a passion. I intensely dislike politicians. But politics exist in anything people are involved in, including families, neighborhoods, schools, churches, blah, blah, blah. I told our sons from the time they could understand “If three people are involved, there are politics. Master the politics and you master the situation.”.

But back to the original point of the thread, which is the poignant message of the video. Ground Zero exists because of islam. Put another way, if there was no islam, there would be no Ground Zero. Regardless of your ideology or political disposition, I would hope you could make that behavioral distinction. muslims have no business building anything remotely representing islam anywhere near Ground Zero. And shame on us if we allow them to.

Is that statement suggesting the ban of islam? No, but if history teaches us anything, that is probably a consideration.

[tony hipchest]

maybe they can build the mosque in jersey, near that huge dump where they hauled all the remains of the twin towers.

but then that would be wrong too.

while i am against any mosque being built near the twin tower site, it is a free country, and he who has the most money to buy the land can do whatever they want with it in our capitalistic country.

plus there will be those who will bitch about a mosque built next to a dump, along with those who dont want a mosque built in our country altogether.

[MasterOfPuppets]

there's one distinction between political wacko's that hide behind a religion, and religious wacko's that hide behind politics ... the religious wacko's have no problem blowing themselves up to get their point across.......

[SteelCityMom]

Vincent, I respect you're opinion...but by some of the tone of your posts, you either don't respect mine or don't think I hold the intelligence to back mine up with loads of facts in a 20-30 minute internet search.

All I can say to you though is it's extremely ignorant to think that the majority of people involved in these various groups aren't Christians, or at least don't think of themselves that way. And they have no qualms whatsoever over killing people who they think are not like them or go against God. I also in no way was attempting to lump these lunatics with everyday Christians who lead good lives. That would be too much like saying all muslims are evil because they have Islamic beliefs...which is one of the points I was arguing against by citing examples of Christian extremists.

And a word to the whole holocaust part of the debate. No offense was meant by anything I said, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I know Hitler himself was, by his own words, anti-Christian...but he never made this publicly known until towards the end of his life. Hitler himself though was a master of propaganda, and a lot of it was aimed at swaying the opinions of Christians to his way of thinking. I don't know where you get the idea that stating this is somehow offensive. It just happened...there were a lot of Christians (not all by any means) who bought into his anti-semetic tirades. Here's a good article I found on the subject. I don't have a lot of time to find more right now, but I'm sure they're out there.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...iChristian.htm

I like you enjoy the argument and enjoy learning more about opposing opinions (along with my own). If I have time tomorrow, I'll look more into answering some of what you've questioned.

[SteelCityMom]

Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

To go with the article in my previous post, I'll give you a direct quote from Hitler himself.

n a speech from April 12, 1922 and published in his book My New Order, Adolf Hitler explains his perspective on Jesus Christ:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...itlerJesus.htm

Again, the rest I will get to at a later time if you wish...skimming over what you wrote I'm intrigued to do more searching.

[ALLD]

One arguement can be made is that when the Serbs began exterminating muslims, NATO- a mostly Christian organization, stepped in and put a stop to it. At the time I was wondering why we were bombing them and not the muslims. One reason is that we did not need a murdering tyrant especially from the Balkans, terrorizing any ethnic group for fear of starting up WWI all over again. It would be interesting to see domestic muslims being more vocal in their opposition to suicide bombing and terrorist organizations.

[SteelCityMom]

A “Christian movement“?? The holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity except that Christians were rounded up with Jews and systematically murdered. Whether or not you intended to make that statement, and I doubt that you did, it attempted to make Christianity at least in part responsible for the democide of 20 million people for the purpose of equating Christianity with islam. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

Christian movement was a poor choice of words, I'll admit, but don't say I tried to moderate my original statement, when both of my statements included "he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion" (which he did...I found A LOT more examples, from his own mouth and from churches that supported his cause). I won't post the full text of these...there's way, way too much. I'll just list the links that have exact quotes.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...rChristian.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...Secularism.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...ansGermany.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...nReligious.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...giousFaith.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...erFaithGod.htm

There's just so many!

That was deeply offensive, but attributable to colossal ignorance.

Again, apologies if anything offended you....but colossal ignorance it is not. There's plenty of proof on paper and tape that Hitler and the Nazi's used religious (specifically Christian) propaganda. Also, when I brought up that many Christians were killed as well, I brought it up in context that they didn't go along with his insane beliefs for a reason. They weren't killed because they were Christians, they were killed because they opposed what Hitler was doing. Big difference.

Yes, some Christians are willing to lay down their lives. For their Lord. For their brethren. But not for political ends. That is solely the province of muslim extremism. In Christianity there is no promise of anything other than forgiveness and eternal life with the Lord. Conquest, politics, and the affairs of man aren’t on the radar.

In a way, you are correct...more often than not you don't hear about a Christian taking his own life along with many others for a political end. Some will however (by the number of examples I've listed) kill others (sometimes many others) either for political ends or because they truly believe that is what God and Jesus want them to do. Again, I really think it's crazy to feel that muslim extremists are the only ones in history who have gone out and killed people in the name of their religion.

If you’re unable to make the differentiation between Christians and those that came from “Christian” backgrounds, you shouldn’t attempt to draw analogies between Christianity and islam and it’s extreme elements.

I am able to make the distinction between the two. I think I've cited enough examples to rationally make that analogy.

I’ve always differentiated one from the other by behavior. The “advertizing” is always wanting. The Christians I’ve known are servants, regardless of their station. They say and do little to reveal self interest. They’re quick to give of themselves and their resources without condition or agenda. I won’t say that that behavior is necessarily exclusive to Christians, but it is the common denominator in Christians I have known.

Of course this is true. It's true for me as well. And unless you've mingled with a large number of muslims over your lifetime, you have to basis to claim the opposite of them. News stories don't count as mingling by the way. There's good and bad people in all races, creeds, religions and walks of life.

The site you reference here is clearly ideology driven and by all indications, seeks to slander Christianity.

Interest piqued, I looked for corroborating information. All I could find was at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper1564.html

You didn't look hard enough.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../para/nlft.htm
http://www.mapsofindia.com/tripura/g...ion-front.html

INTERFERENCE IN RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES :-
Tripura Tribals were, generally, Hindus. From the ancient times, tribal of Tripura worshipped the idols of Hindu Gods/Goddesses. Some militants are making a conscious attempt to de-link the tribals from the Hindu cultural milieu aligning it with the non-tribal culture. The militants believe that undermining the non-tribal influence is the surest way to give the tribals a new identity. Abhorrence of Hindu connection among the section of the new generation of tribal youths is the outcome of this concerted effort by the militants having faith in Christianity. Their such efforts have led to an inner conflict among the tribal populace as one extremist group has been forcing Christianity on tribal having faith not only in Hinduism but also in Buddhism and their traditional convictions. Such activities of the extremists have made the common tribal hostile to these extremist groups.

[QUOTEReligion and Community wise break up is :- Debbarma 40%, Jamatia 30%, Reang 10% and others 20%. 90% of the top leaders of NLFT are Christians.][/QUOTE]

http://tripurapolice.nic.in/amilitancy.htm#b9

National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is an active terrorist organization. However, NLFT is constantly in flux and has given rise to several splinter groups. In 2001, NLFT split into two main factions, one led by Nayanbasi Jamatiya and the other by Biswamohan Debbarma. According to confisicated records of NLFT, the split was caused by internal bickering among senior leaders, misappropriation of funds by certain senior NLFT members, and disagreement over the forcible conversion of NLFT members to Chrisitainty. According to at least one report, approximately 90 percent of senior NLFT members are Christians. Despite the internal fighting and regardless of future splintering of NLFT, the group remains an active terrorist threat in the Tripura state of India.

http://www.start.umd.edu/start/data/...le.asp?id=3644

The government in India's north-eastern state of Tripura says it has evidence that the state's Baptist Church is involved in backing separatist rebels.Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar said state police had uncovered details of the alleged link after questioning a church leader.Nagmanlal Halam, secretary of the Noapara Baptist Church in Tripura, was arrested late on Monday with a large quantity of explosives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/717775.stm

Rebels in India's north-eastern state of Tripura are making pornographic films to raise money for their separatist campaign, officials say.The information has come from surrendered guerrillas of the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT), according to police.They say the rebels are forcing captured tribal women, and some men, to take part in the films.The films are then dubbed to be sold in India and neighbouring countries.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4190570.stm

[SteelCityMom]

Well, there you have it. Aside from the “National Christian Party”, the term isn’t used in the document except in relation to the warped theology that “Jesus wasn’t Jewish”, and similar nonsense. Baptists and missionaries are absent as well.

They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.

If you like these guys, you’ll love the Mufti of Jerusalem, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, and his muslim Waffen SS divisions that operated in Yugoslavia. Wait a second! Christians and muslims persecuting Jews? And what about those Serbs going all holocaustal on the poor Bosnian muslims. I’ll bet they’re “Christians” too.

Both always did like persecuting the other...doesn't surprise me that there are instances where they "team up".

“I've never conversed with a KKK member”, but “they all (or most I guess) were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists…”. I have never talked to a Martian, but I’m absolutely certain they’re all green.

This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.

For me, it was the “lunatic” part. Again, I used to work a few blocks down Geary Blvd from said lunatics. Knew them well.

Africa? I think “lunatic” is the operable word there as well. Was that racist of me?

Yeah they're lunatics. Lunatics who thought/think they are doing God's will.

The Crusades? You may recall that the Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back from the muslims. Recorded history frames them as the offenders, a theme still with us.

Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels". There was that pesky 4th Crusade where the "Christian" Crusaders decided to ditch their attempt at invading Egypt (Muslim land) and went ahead and destroyed not one, but two Christian cities...for money and power. One of them was Constantinople. Perhaps you've heard of it? It was eventually overrun by Turks a couple hundred years later. Lot of people killed and tortured there though. Great "Christian" tragedy.

The great historian of the Crusades, Sir Steven Runciman, wrote that the sack of Constantinople is “unparalleled in history”.
“For nine centuries,” he goes on, “the great city had been the capital of Christian civilisation. It was filled with works of art that had survived from ancient Greece and with the masterpieces of its own exquisite craftsmen. The Venetians wherever they could seized treasures and carried them off. But the Frenchmen and Flemings were filled with a lust for destruction: they rushed in a howling mob down the streets and through the houses, snatching up everything that glittered and destroying whatever they could not carry, pausing only to murder or to rape, or to break open the wine-cellars. Neither monasteries nor churches nor libraries were spared. In St Sophia itself drunken soldiers could be seen tearing down the silken hangings and pulling the silver iconostasis to pieces, while sacred books and icons were trampled under foot. While they drank from the altar-vessels a prostitute sang a ribald French song on the Patriarch’s throne. Nuns were ravished in their convents. Palaces and hovels alike were wrecked. Wounded women and children lay dying in the streets. For three days the ghastly scenes continued until the huge and beautiful city was a shambles. Even after order was restored, citizens were tortured to make them reveal treasures they had hidden.

Steven Runciman, History of the Crusades, Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, 1965, vol 3, pp. 111-128.

The inquisition, or more correctly inquisitions? The terms “Christian” and “Catholic” don’t always coincide, but I will defer to any Catholics that may want to comment.

Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.

But back to the original point of the thread, which is the poignant message of the video. Ground Zero exists because of islam. Put another way, if there was no islam, there would be no Ground Zero. Regardless of your ideology or political disposition, I would hope you could make that behavioral distinction. muslims have no business building anything remotely representing islam anywhere near Ground Zero. And shame on us if we allow them to.

Is that statement suggesting the ban of islam? No, but if history teaches us anything, that is probably a consideration.

Yes, I get that part...and I understand you're objection to it, I really do. I just don't agree with a broad based bashing of all muslims.

History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

[Vincent]

Vincent, I respect you're opinion...but by some of the tone of your posts, you either don't respect mine or don't think I hold the intelligence to back mine up with loads of facts in a 20-30 minute internet search.

I respect your opinion as well Mom. I can be abrupt. No excuse. I apologize.

All I can say to you though is it's extremely ignorant to think that the majority of people involved in these various groups aren't Christians, or at least don't think of themselves that way. And they have no qualms whatsoever over killing people who they think are not like them or go against God. I also in no way was attempting to lump these lunatics with everyday Christians who lead good lives.

Can we agree that there are, as you say, “everyday Christians who lead good lives”, and folks that for myriad reasons wear the label of Christian and do the things they do independent of Christianity? To be a Christian is a state of heart, soul, and spirit. It is the surrender of sin, acceptance by faith of forgiveness through the shed blood of Jesus, and the rebirth as a person that separates himself from sin and earnestly follows his Lord. That’s where that term that irritates people comes from – “born again Christian”. By outward appearances there is a change of behavior that separates actual Christians from the label. But it is the internal change that manifests itself over time that is the difference. It has its own language. It can’t be faked. The imposters stand out to the genuine.

That would be too much like saying all muslims are evil because they have Islamic beliefs...which is one of the points I was arguing against by citing examples of Christian extremists.

I don’t believe all muslims are evil. I’ve known too many, not least of which was the best man at my nephew’s wedding last month. I have said that rank and file muslims are victims of a bad religion that not only abuses those around them but pits muslims against muslims in brutal carnage. The evil exists in their leadership and the extreme elements that they recruit and cultivate.

I know Hitler himself was, by his own words, anti-Christian...but he never made this publicly known until towards the end of his life. Hitler himself though was a master of propaganda, and a lot of it was aimed at swaying the opinions of Christians to his way of thinking.

We can agree on that. He didn’t need to make that confession. His deeds spoke for themselves.

...there were a lot of Christians (not all by any means) who bought into his anti-semetic tirades. Here's a good article I found on the subject. http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...iChristian.htm

The second article displays his mastery of rhetoric but reveals his deception of “his Lord’s” character. Any Christian would immediately see that he doesn’t speak the language. That so many couldn’t be deceived led to their deaths in the camps.

"he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion" (which he did...I found A LOT more examples, from his own mouth and from churches that supported his cause). I won't post the full text of these...there's way, way too much. I'll just list the links that have exact quotes.

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...rChristian.htm
“The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession” You folks be “good Christians” and don’t confess your allegiance to anything but the party.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...Secularism.htm
“All of Culture Must Serve Our Mission - 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!" Oh Lord, I have $50 on the Steelers by 7 and I need it bad.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...ansGermany.htm
I have no apology to make for the Catholic church here. They can speak for themselves. The loyalty oath to hitler though, tips their hands.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...nReligious.htm
“Violence Must Have a Firm, Spiritual Base”. Yeah, I got yer ‘Christianity’ right here.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...giousFaith.htm
“Faith”. In what? Whom? Hollow sloganeering commensurate with “hope” and “change”.
http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...erFaithGod.htm
“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.” The words of a deist, and false rhetoric at that.

There's just so many!

I don’t see a Christian word in any of it. Deceptive rhetoric, yes. Deism, yes. Again, the real Christians knew he was a deceiver, so they had to go. We were warned – “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” I think hitler was among the fakes, but by no means even a “false Christ”. Those days are yet to come. And its going to be u-u-u-u-uhg-lee!

Again, apologies if anything offended you....but colossal ignorance it is not. There's plenty of proof on paper and tape that Hitler and the Nazi's used religious (specifically Christian) propaganda. Also, when I brought up that many Christians were killed as well, I brought it up in context that they didn't go along with his insane beliefs for a reason. They weren't killed because they were Christians, they were killed because they opposed what Hitler was doing. Big difference.

Religious rhetoric. Not Christian by any means. And Christians wouldn’t be deceived by it for a minute. It raises serious questions about those that were.

In a way, you are correct...more often than not you don't hear about a Christian taking his own life along with many others for a political end. Some will however (by the number of examples I've listed) kill others (sometimes many others) either for political ends or because they truly believe that is what God and Jesus want them to do. Again, I really think it's crazy to feel that muslim extremists are the only ones in history who have gone out and killed people in the name of their religion.

We disagree here. Christians don’t harm or kill people. Wearers of a label do. I haven’t met a Christian that had it in his being to intentionally harm another. That’s one of the ways you can tell them apart from the pretenders. “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” There is no place to hide from those words.

There's good and bad people in all races, creeds, religions and walks of life.

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” A Christian will say “there but by the grace of God go I”.

You didn't look hard enough.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../para/nlft.htm
http://www.mapsofindia.com/tripura/g...ion-front.html

Different sources disagree on the “Christian” reference. The one I cited this afternoon http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper1564.html didn’t make a religious connection, but did point out that the leadership were given to double standards. The label can’t hide. They’re bad actors, to be sure. No pun relative to their porn.

They were a Christian based party that preached antisemitism and were involved in the holocaust in Romania. I don't know what else to tell you.

They wore the label. Their behavior betrayed them as to what they were.

Continued in the next post...

[Vincent]

This doesn't really speak to any point I made about KKK members being Christian. Again, I'm guessing some might not have been, but from everything I've ever read, much of the groups movement was based in a religious belief that blacks, jews and other races were inferior. Maybe it was them burning numerous crosses that first gave it away for me. I'm not sure.

A Christian would never ever burn a cross. Such an act is every bit as evil as the hakenkreuz. Christians don’t beat or lynch people. Racist barbarians do. The democrats own that history. You will not find a mindset of moral or racial superiority in a Christian, rather quite the opposite. Part of the miracle of salvation is the realization that He saved a wretch like you.

Yes of course I know why the Crusades were launched. I suppose I should have been a little more specific...because you see, not every one of the Crusades was launched against "the infidels".

We all mistakenly take wearers of crosses at face value. Ozzy wears a cross.
Were the Crusades God inspired acts of Christian men? The only real answer to that lies in the disposition of the hearts of those individuals that participated. In the aggregate it was “Christiandom v islam” in a best of 7 series for all the marbles.

Yes, I know...there were 4 of them. Catholics killed a lot of Protestants and other Christian sects. Officially ended in 1908. Well, at least that's when they changed the name of the Congregation. They just stopped killing people. They still oversee Catholic doctrine to this day though.

And then you have the Brits operating under the aegis of the church of England committing unholy carnage of their lowly neighbors the Scots, Irish, and Welsh. And on and on and on.

Again, the point of this thread was muslims building a mosque near Ground Zero and I defer to the wisdom of that lone Brit on the subject. The thread has evolved into a referendum on Christianity and that’s fine. I make no apology for the church and its sordid history. I am not “religious” by any stretch of the imagination. But I am a believer in the entirety of the Gospel of Jesus the Christ and try to live in accordance to it.

History has taught me a lot. One of the biggest lessons that I've learned is that religion (of any kind) will almost always get a lot of people killed one way or another.

The problem with “religion” is that it involves people. And people will be people regardless of the stripe they wear. Man's inhumanity to man seems to know no restraint or limit. That is why, in my limited capacity to navigate this life, I go by the behavior of people as the best indicator. "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.”.

[SteelCityMom]

I think we see somewhat eye to eye on everything posted here, because I certainly don't outright disagree with anything you said in the last two posts. My main point in originally bringing these things up was in response to you saying (paraphrased here) that Islam was an evil religion that makes people do evil things...something along those lines.

I was really just trying to point to examples of people (whether they are false Christians or not) did horrible things in the past and today in the name of Christianity. Some have done it for political gain, others have done it because they truly feel they were doing God's work. Both are for very wrong reasons. Admittedly though, there's a good bit of text in the Bible that I can see where people might get the wrong idea and think that killing for God is justifiable...the same way that some of the text in the Qur'an can be misconstrued by Muslims (though I do understand the differences between what Jesus preached and what Mohammed preached...I still think some of it is taken out of context by people who want power).

Both the Qur'an and the Bible are vast, vague books, filled with poetry and contradictions. You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam or Christianity. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.

[NJarhead]

maybe they can build the mosque in jersey, near that huge dump where they hauled all the remains of the twin towers.

but then that would be wrong too.

while i am against any mosque being built near the twin tower site, it is a free country, and he who has the most money to buy the land can do whatever they want with it in our capitalistic country.

plus there will be those who will bitch about a mosque built next to a dump, along with those who dont want a mosque built in our country altogether.

That was Staten Island and don't you go volunteering my state for anything.

[BigNastyDefense]

A mosque at the Twin Towers site would be a travesty IMHO, since those who destroyed them did it in the name of Islam. So I don't think it would be right, freedom of religion be damned in this case. If they want to build a Mosque in the NYC area, they can build it in Harlem or the Bronx.

[NJarhead]

A mosque at the Twin Towers site would be a travesty IMHO, since those who destroyed them did it in the name of Islam. So I don't think it would be right, freedom of religion be damned in this case. If they want to build a Mosque in the NYC area, they can build it in Harlem or the Bronx.

It's actually several blocks away from the WTC site.

[NJarhead]

I'm beginning to waiver on my "support" for this mosque. Maybe these folks are right after all.

June 16, 2010, New York, N.Y., – by El Marco

Americans Stand Up Against Radical Islam in New York – We Will Not Submit!

Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history

On Sunday, June 6th, a multi-ethnic, multi-racial coalition of Americans opposed to Islamic violence and intolerance rallied at the site of the World Trade Center in New York City.



9/11 families were joined by immigrants from India, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Africa, Iran and Europe to show opposition to the construction of a mega-mosque at Ground Zero. Others flew in from overseas to speak or just to share their particular ethnic communities experiences at the hands of Muslims.



These are parents and spouses of firefighters killed on 9/11. The rally took place just a minutes walk from Ladder 10 Firehouse, where their loved ones were stationed for duty that terrible day. Ladder 10 lost seven firefighters.



Crowd estimates ranged from 5,000 (NYPD) to 10,000. The crowd overflowed the police barrier enclosures that ran the full length of two city blocks. This photo shows the enclosure in front of the stage at the intersection of Liberty and Church Streets. The second enclosure ran the length of the next block and can be seen on the other side of the traffic lights.



Thousands of additional participants filled the treed area of Zuccotti Park.


Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller are the founders of STOP ISLAMIZATION OF AMERICA, which sponsored the rally. Ms. Geller is a citizen journalist and blogger who runs the human rights web site Atlas Shrugs. Mr. Spencer is the author of several books on Islam and head of the influential web site Jihad watch. Pamela Geller:

Ground Zero is a war memorial, Ground Zero is a burial ground. We are asking for sensitivity…It is unconscionable to build a shrine to the very ideology that inspired the jihadist attacks at Ground Zero, right there. We are asking the imam Rauf and Daisy Khan to be sensitive. For mutual respect and mutual understanding that is demanded of us every day.

There's a hair-trigger sensitivity in the Muslim world, you can't run the cartoons, you can't say Mohammed, this is offensive. This is an offensive mosque. To build a shrine, an Islamic flag of conquest on the sacred ground the cherished site, of a conquered land. This is historic, this is Islamic history. It's what they do. The St. Sofia in Turkey, the al-Quds, at the holiest Jewish site in Israel. Not here. This is where we take a stand. We must take a stand. We must say no.

I do not believe that the landmarks commission controlled by Mayor Bloomberg, is going to stop this mosque. It's not going to happen. Here's Omar Muhamedi, on his human rights council, a CAIR lawyer, who sued the airlines and the Jane and John Does that saw something and said something on those airplanes, if you remember. That's who's on his human rights commission. It ain't gonna happen with Bloomberg. We have to make it happen. You have to get involved. (Pamela Geller)

[NJarhead]

Part II:





Police enclosure on left, with crowd flowing out of park on right. The new Tower 7 and World Trade Center site are in the background. The green tent, center, is located immediately behind the stage.



Port Authority and NYPD officers kept watch over the rally and were well aware of the need for heightened security at this event. One of their own Port Authority officers, WTC Sergeant Alan T. De Vona was on duty at the World Trade Center on 9/11, 2001, and was one of the first to help victims of the terrorist attack. He spoke these words to the SIOA rally:

It's almost nine years. I'm hoping that America is watching. I'm hoping that America is remembering. Because, make no mistake. September 11 was an act of war. And thank the military that has lost almost 5,000 troops from that day, defending us. I don't know what to say to jar America's memory. I want America to remember.






Port Authority Police and FDNY firefighters are seen here gathered beneath this banner.



The issues at stake will certainly affect the heart of American freedom, democracy, cultural values and tolerance. America is a tolerant country that allows for the free worship of all its citizens. But our tolerance has limits. Do we have to tolerate intolerant Islamic ideology and Muslims who preach intolerant Islam?



Hindu human rights activists Narain Kataria, Prasad Yalamanchi and unidentified friend came from Mississippi and Chicago with banners and flyers highlighting the radical statements of imam Rauf and his jihadist roots.






















Stephen Dyer and Gary Jules journalism students at York College, with Pamela Geller. Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history.



Pamela Geller is greeted by Hindu human rights activists Prasad Yalamanchi and Narain Kataria.



Bhupinder Singh Bhurji, Pamela Geller, and Robert Spencer. Singh Bhurji is the president of the NAMDHARI SIKH FOUNDATION. The foundation is a member of the Human Rights Coalition Against Radical Islam (HRCARI). HRCARI is a coalition of Hindus, Sikhs, Christians from Sudan, Egypt and Iraq, moderate Muslims and Jews — who are victims and targets of radical Islam around the globe. He said, at another rally:

Radical Islamists are killing people in India, trying to dominate that nation. And here too they come with violence against infidels. We are infidels united, standing together, brown, black and white, against this epoch's fascist movement. Radical Islam wants to dominate entire world. They want everyone to surrender. Islam radical or otherwise. They want to put the Islamic flag on White House.



Because of Islamic terrorism, America and the world have seen massive new security measures become a way of life. Anyone openly critical of Islam, or terrorist ideology, must surround themselves with security, or live in hiding. Those courageous enough to confront Islamism are criticized by the cowards and appeasers of the left who seek safety by supporting the enemy. Moderate Muslims were silent when Theo van Gogh was brutally murdered in Amsterdam, just as moderate Muslims in the United States are generally reluctant to speak out against violent Islam. Moderate Muslims also face great danger in speaking out.

Geller and Spencer will press on despite the danger. They hope to inspire Americans to stand up and say enough of political correctness and work to stem the galloping islamization of America and Europe.

[Vincent]

Not one major network sent a satellite truck or camera crew to this event. Without bloggers this newsworthy event would have remained unknown to the public and history

That's the sad damn truth.

That we even have to point out the awful offense the notion of building a mosque in NYC is speaks to the state of decay this country is in. A mere 9 years after this atrocity was committed, we have a muslim in the White House, dozens of our soldiers murdered on our own base in Texas by another muslim wearing one of our uniforms, and the prospect of muslims building a conquest monument to 9-11. If we had reacted to Pearl Harbor this way, we'd all be japanese subjects, well at least the ones that didn't die in slave camps.

Robert Spencer, one of the luminaries of the event WarDen referenced, is a prolific writer on the subject. One of his books "Stealth Jihad" speaks to what the muslims are doing to subvert us, and his website is a good source to stay abreast of stealth jihad in America.

Its time to wake up you people or it won't be long until its over.

Thank you WarDen for the excellent post!! You're a great American.

[NJarhead]

That's the sad damn truth.

That we even have to point out the awful offense the notion of building a mosque in NYC is speaks to the state of decay this country is in. A mere 9 years after this atrocity was committed, we have a muslim in the White House, dozens of our soldiers murdered on our own base in Texas by another muslim wearing one of our uniforms, and the prospect of muslims building a conquest monument to 9-11. If we had reacted to Pearl Harbor this way, we'd all be japanese subjects, well at least the ones that didn't die in slave camps.

Robert Spencer, one of the luminaries of the event WarDen referenced, is a prolific writer on the subject. One of his books "Stealth Jihad" speaks to what the muslims are doing to subvert us, and his website is a good source to stay abreast of stealth jihad in America.

Its time to wake up you people or it won't be long until its over.

Thank you WarDen for the excellent post!! You're a great American.

Thank you Vincent. Does this mean you'll stop arguing with me?

[Vincent]

Does this mean you'll stop arguing with me?

Have we met?

[venom]

A Christian Nation cannot put up a Christmas scene of the baby Jesus in a public place, but the Muslims can stop normal traffic every Friday afternoon by worshiping in the streets... Something is happening in America that is reminiscent of what is happening in Europe. This is Political Correctness gone crazy...

This is an accurate picture of every Friday afternoon in several locations
throughout NYC where there are mosques with a large number of Muslims
that cannot fit into the mosque - They fill the surrounding streets, facing east for a couple of hours between about 2 & 4 p.m. - Besides this one at 42nd St & Madison Ave, there is another, even larger group, at 94th St & 3rd Ave, etc.- Also, I presume, you are aware of the dispute over building another "high rise" Mosque a few blocks from "ground zero" - With regard to that one, the "Imam" refuses to disclose where the $110 million dollars to build it is coming from and there is a lawsuit filed to force disclosure of that information - Just some facts FYI - But then, you have your own troubles with the "immigration" problem and the new AZ law - November can't come soon enough!!
This is in New York City on Madison Avenue, not in France ,the Middle East, Yemen or Kenya.

[SteelersinCA]

This shit is unreal. Can you imagine if a Christian church spilled out into the streets every Sunday? People would go ape shit.

[st33lersguy]

This politically correct b.s., and this dishonor of the victims of 9-11 by the leftwing elite and the imam is shameful, despicable, and shows what kind of people the politically correct leftwing elite really are. They could have built this mosque in any other vacant place. The imam building it next to ground zero is a slap in the face and I am ashamed at whoever will let this pass

[SteelersinCA]

Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

[Shoes]

I know my Kurdish Peshmerga (Muslim) friends from Iran/Iraq would have laid down their lives for me, something maybe my family wouldn't do.....I also know they wouldn't want a Mosque @ Ground Zero.

[Shoes]

Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

It depends on which day you ask CA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bloomberg

[NJarhead]

Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

Nope. He's a Dem.

[The Patriot]

Now that I'm hearing the details, I'm starting to have second thoughts. I thought they were building some modest structure for Muslim New Yorkers, not a giant monolith.

There is nothing we can really do though. If you let the Catholic Church build a cathedral in New York, and this still is a free country, then forbidding Muslims from building a Mosque is kind of a hypocrisy.

[venom]

Isn't Bloomberg a repub?

Im from NYC - hes a Dem turned Rep to run for Mayor . Then said the Mayor should serve ONLY 2 TERMS and then flip flopped again and fought for running for 3 terms.

[Shoes]

Now that I'm hearing the details, I'm starting to have second thoughts. I thought they were building some modest structure for Muslim New Yorkers, not a giant monolith.

There is nothing we can really do though. If you let the Catholic Church build a cathedral in New York, and this still is a free country, then forbidding Muslims from building a Mosque is kind of a hypocrisy.

A Mosque at ground zero would be icing on ben ladens cake...and only advance the radical side of Islam. I would not worry about being a hypocrite when I know they would cut my throat without a second thought.

[The Patriot]

A Mosque at ground zero would be icing on ben ladens cake...and only advance the radical side of Islam. I would not worry about being a hypocrite when I know they would cut my throat without a second thought.

Most muslims aren't terrorists. When you hear about 50 Iraqis being killed in Baghdad by a car bomb, remember they are probably muslims. Not all muslims would want to build a Mosque at ground zero either, so you can probably scrutinize this particular group of muslims, but muslims as a whole are just a different population of the globe.