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Thread: No mosque at Ground Zero

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    I won't disagree with that, but it's not a loophole that JUST Islamic radicals exploit. Or do you really think that members of Army of God, Christian Identity movement, Concerned Christians, KKK, Christian Patriot movement and Lambs of Christ (and many others) don't have churches built, don't get funding through business and investment tactics and don't get government (aka taxpayer) grants for growth and funding?
    and thats why i agree with this article...

    Time to strip tax exempt status from all churches

    As the nation, states, and communities struggle during trying economic times, revoking the tax-exempt status for religious organizations must be considered and is long overdue. This is especially true when groups like Mormons, Catholics, and evangelical Christians contribute to political campaigns that promote their hateful religious agendas, or worse yet, when they preach political issues from the pulpit.

    There is separation of Church and State in the United States, and that means religious organizations do not involve themselves in politics to set policy or influence politicians. However, there are instances where the Catholic Church pours money into campaigns against healthcare reform, and the LDS (Mormons) church poured huge amounts of money to defeat gay marriage in California. The campaign in California is most interesting because most of the funds came from Utah.

    Around the country, and in the Modesto area, churches put up signs in front of their magnificent buildings urging defeat of gay marriage initiatives, and mobilized their congregations to campaign for discrimination. There were sermons devoted to the evils of gay marriage, and the theme of the sermons was saving traditional marriage and children from the horrors of homosexuality. The twisted reasoning is that allowing gays to marry would destroy conventional marriage, and is an abomination according to the Biblical edict from God.

    But God’s laws and injunctions have no place in politics or policy decisions, and candidates have no morals if they take money, endorsements, or support from religious organizations that push for laws that are over 2,000 years old and come from a fairy tale. As with all lobbying groups, there is a price to pay for their support during election time.

    Groups like the Tea Party Palinites, and Fox News’ Glenn Beck (Mormon) use God to influence and frighten religious people about the dangers of Obama, Socialism, and the evil gay agenda. Because they use God and money to influence political decisions, all religious organizations have to lose the tax-exempt status.

    If the Mormon, Catholic, or evangelical Churches want to run the government, or at least influence decisions made by our representatives, they must lose their tax-exempt status at every level, including the property tax exemption and become lobbyists or a separate political party.

    The property tax alone on mega-churches would help communities that struggle for funds. It is especially egregious that most of these buildings sit on prime commercial real estate, and their expansion takes up valuable farmland and public safety resources at a time when cities like Modesto lays off police officers, firemen, and teachers. The property tax alone would fund many positions that the church uses such as police and fire protection.

    The scare tactics and fear of damnation for contradicting God usually works on the faithful regardless of the Constitution or their own rule book’s (Bible) exhortation to separate themselves from the government.

    Using fear to control the congregation is wrong, but it is their club and they have the freedom to use any obscene tactic to control their adherents. However, when they use their tax-free money and the pulpit to influence policy, they are no better than a lobbyist. Even if they do not try to influence policy, they are no better than a charitable, tax-paying citizen, and must pay their fair share, like Jesus told them to.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
    and thats why i agree with this article...
    I am 100% with you on this...it is very long overdue. Good article as well.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    I am 100% with you on this...it is very long overdue. Good article as well.
    the figure i've seen, said the catholic church had over 400 billion dollars in assets . now how does a "should be charitable organization", manage to hold on to all that wealth, while supposedly easing the suffering of those in need ? i don't recall reading anything about the catholic church helping out monetarily in haiti or during any disaster for that matter.


    but anyway this should be a thread all its own, so i won't hijack this one any farther...

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Shea View Post
    Looks like so many here are grouping all Muslims into one category as psycho extremists and therefore they must all be murderous nut jobs, just like those terrorists that blew up the towers.
    Yes in fact, I do put them all in the same category because the heart of their doctrine is the spread of their "religion" as fundemental Governoring Law. It has zero to do with "worship" and everything to do with Taking Over the Entire Aspect of a Human Beings Life.

    So yeah, As long as those jackkholes bow four times a day to a MOON GOD and a SPACE ROCK...I will put them all in the group of people on this planet that want me to die, convert, or convert or die.
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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Ban one religion in this country and it would open up a whole can of worms. Do that and suddenly were more like muslim countries and less like America.
    Islam is not a religion, its a form of Political Movement hidden behind "worship" its exactly like Nazism in fact.
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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Hey maybe we should allow a group of White Neo Nazi, anti Federal Government pro Militia guys to build a "memorial" to Timothy McVeigh next to the Oklahoma City Federal Building?

    See how effing dumb it is to allow the enemy to build a Monument to their Greatest Victory against us at the Site of the death of 3000 of our Civilians?

    Maybe we should build a Statue of George Bush in downtown Baghdad, or how about a Catholic Church with a McDonalds in MECCA where NO NONE MOSLMES are even allowed? How about that.

    I swear, the enemy is at the gates and people REFUSE to see it.
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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino 6 Rings View Post
    Islam is not a religion, its a form of Political Movement hidden behind "worship" its exactly like Nazism in fact.
    Hey, I could give a hoot what you think about their religion...I feel the same way about all organized religions. I just think it would be hypocritical to ban one religion because of extremists all while promoting another that has the same kind of extremists (and have murdered people on US soil).

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Hey, I could give a hoot what you think about their religion...I feel the same way about all organized religions. I just think it would be hypocritical to ban one religion because of extremists all while promoting another that has the same kind of extremists (and have murdered people on US soil).
    In recent history (and by recent history I mean a helluva long time), which has been responsible for the most loss of innocent life ? Extremist Christians or Extremist Muslims ? Is it even CLOSE ?!
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    In recent history (and by recent history I mean a helluva long time), which has been responsible for the most loss of innocent life ? Extremist Christians or Extremist Muslims ? Is it even CLOSE ?!
    Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.

    Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.

    Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.

    The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

    The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians.

    Russian National Unity (which is still active today) is a far-right Christian based organization that promotes a greater role of the Russian Orthodox Church. They have been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg.

    The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. They claim to be Christian and have been accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.

    These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino 6 Rings View Post
    Hey maybe we should allow a group of White Neo Nazi, anti Federal Government pro Militia guys to build a "memorial" to Timothy McVeigh next to the Oklahoma City Federal Building?

    See how effing dumb it is to allow the enemy to build a Monument to their Greatest Victory against us at the Site of the death of 3000 of our Civilians?

    Maybe we should build a Statue of George Bush in downtown Baghdad, or how about a Catholic Church with a McDonalds in MECCA where NO NONE MOSLMES are even allowed? How about that.

    I swear, the enemy is at the gates and people REFUSE to see it.
    Sorry buddy, but I'm not buying that. Same shit was said about all Japanese Americans during WWII. We imprisoned them, deported them, displaced them and stole their homes and business and then, 50 years later we apologized to them.
    SOME were lucky to serve in the military and they fought bravely too.

    There is no shortage of Muslims in our military at present and while a few have refused to fight and even resorted to violence against their fellow troops, the vast majority of them serve honorably.

    I think it is unfair to label and entire group of people by the actions of less than 10% of them. In fact, I think it's ignorant bullshit. Every damn generation has done it to one group or another and this time its ALL Muslims. And the only purpose this serves is to cause even more unnecessary friction between all the cultures involved.

    Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWarDen86 View Post
    Sorry buddy, but I'm not buying that. Same shit was said about all Japanese Americans during WWII. We imprisoned them, deported them, displaced them and stole their homes and business and then, 50 years later we apologized to them.
    SOME were lucky to serve in the military and they fought bravely too.

    There is no shortage of Muslims in our military at present and while a few have refused to fight and even resorted to violence against their fellow troops, the vast majority of them serve honorably.

    I think it is unfair to label and entire group of people by the actions of less than 10% of them. In fact, I think it's ignorant bullshit. Every damn generation has done it to one group or another and this time its ALL Muslims. And the only purpose this serves is to cause even more unnecessary friction between all the cultures involved.

    Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.

    I can go to Japan now and now worry about getting my head chopped off. Try going to Mecca some time.

    The Saudi's are Sunni's the Iranians are Shiites, so I see the Saudi's as pushing their old war (since the days after Mohammed died and his nephew Ali had his head cut off and sent to his mom in Demascus) against the Shiites.

    Call it ignorant all you want, I care not, I have identified the enemy of our US Constitution and our way of life. When one of them walks into a store you're shopping in and blows himself up in the name of his moon god, then maybe you'll see it differently. Kumbaya and all my good buddy.
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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    As a non-religious person, I say that if practitioners of Islam are going to get lumped together with Islamic extremists, then Christians better get ready to be held accountable for extremist groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino 6 Rings View Post
    I can go to Japan now and now worry about getting my head chopped off. Try going to Mecca some time.

    The Saudi's are Sunni's the Iranians are Shiites, so I see the Saudi's as pushing their old war (since the days after Mohammed died and his nephew Ali had his head cut off and sent to his mom in Demascus) against the Shiites.

    Call it ignorant all you want, I care not, I have identified the enemy of our US Constitution and our way of life. When one of them walks into a store you're shopping in and blows himself up in the name of his moon god, then maybe you'll see it differently. Kumbaya and all my good buddy.
    You can go to Japan now, but you couldn't back then.
    Have you never been in the same store as a Muslim in this country?

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by CantStop85 View Post
    As a non-religious person, I say that if practitioners of Islam are going to get lumped together with Islamic extremists, then Christians better get ready to be held accountable for extremist groups such as the Westboro Baptist Church.
    Get ready why?

    muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

    Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.
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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Lots of good posts on both sides. It's difficult to be a diplomat in these times.

    I think some people see war as a sport whether it be secular or religious. Those people have little regard for casualties- innocent or targeted. Their primary objective is to selfishly promote their agenda.

    In our current conflicts, many people have had their values altered by more powerful individuals or groups and force others to sacrifice their own life for the cause such as the case with suicide bombing. That is the horror of war.

    *Saudi Arabia giving air space to Israel to conduct operations is like the Red Sea parting all over again. I guess we know who our friends are.
    All Defense!

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets View Post
    and thats why i agree with this article...
    I agree with the abolition to the tax-exempt status of churches. I do not agree when the article states the Bible is a fairy tale.
    All Defense!

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by TheWarDen86 View Post


    Saudi Arabi gave Israel access to their air space in order to attack another Muslim nation. If THAT isn't progress then I don't know what is.
    which may, or may not be true...
    http://www.zeenews.com/news633851.html
    Saudi denies Israel airspace deal against Iran
    Dubai: Saudi Arabia has said it will never allow its territory to be used for aggression against another nation, denying reports that it had given permission to Israel to overfly its airspace to attack Iran.

    "Saudi Arabia has repeatedly reiterated its clear stance that it will never allow anyone to use its territories or airspace for aggression against another nation," a statement said.
    Reacting to a report in a British newspaper, the country said it would be illogical to give such a permission to Israel, with which Saudi Arabia has no relations.

    Earlier, Saudi and US defence officials were quoted in a report as saying that Riyadh will allow Israeli jets to use its airspace if Tel Aviv decides to attack Iranian nuclear facilities.

    In London, Ambassador of Saudi Arabia to UK Prince Mohammed bin Nawaf issued a categorical denial of the report.
    n a press statement, he said this would be against the policy adopted and followed by the Kingdom. He reiterated the Kingdom's stand in rejecting any violation of its territories or airspace.

    He said it would be illogical to allow the Israeli occupying force, with whom Saudi Arabia has no relations whatsoever, to use its land and airspace

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Get ready why?

    muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

    Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.
    And extremists of Christianity and other religions don't?

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Get ready why?

    muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

    Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    And extremists of Christianity and other religions don't?
    What Christian denomination routinely carries out terrorist acts on innocent people around the world?

    Obviously, the Christian religion has had it's not so glamorous moments in recorded history, but, it also doesn't kill thousands of innocents in the name of "***" (insert deity of choice) on a regular basis either.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    What Christian denomination routinely carries out terrorist acts on innocent people around the world?

    Obviously, the Christian religion has had it's not so glamorous moments in recorded history, but, it also doesn't kill thousands of innocents in the name of "***" (insert deity of choice) on a regular basis either.
    I posted a number of examples (some of which are still in activity today) on the previous page. Like I said back there, if anyone needs more examples I'd be happy to dig around.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    I posted a number of examples (some of which are still in activity today) on the previous page. Like I said back there, if anyone needs more examples I'd be happy to dig around.
    You win. My post was a bit hasty. I still don't want a Mosque built on Ground Zero.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent View Post
    Get ready why?

    muslims blow people and things up, start wars all over the world, commit murder and mayhem all over the world on a daily basis, blow up subway trains, and busses, and on and on.

    Westboro Baptist Church by contrast are merely deeply offensive.
    Sorry that I didn't provide a harsh enough example for you, but if you don't believe that Christians have committed atrocities as bad or worse than the Islamic extremists, then you must live a very sheltered life. I will defer to SteelCityMom's post as she has provided plenty of "good" examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom
    Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.

    Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.

    Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.

    The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.

    The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians.

    Russian National Unity (which is still active today) is a far-right Christian based organization that promotes a greater role of the Russian Orthodox Church. They have been accused of murders, and several terrorist attacks including the bombing of the US Consulate in Ekaterinburg.

    The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations. They claim to be Christian and have been accused of widespread human rights violations, including murder, abduction, mutilation, sexual enslavement of women and children, and forcing children to participate in hostilities.

    These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.
    The fact is there are bad Christians, there are bad Muslims, there are bad Atheists, there are bad Jews, etc...but there are also many good Christians, good Muslims, good Atheists, and good Jews. The problem here is, due to our media-driven culture, we only hear the bad things about the Muslims because they're the only things considered news-worthy and most of us don't have enough exposure to the Islamic culture to realize that not all Muslims behave this way. The same thing happens on the other side of the fence; many Muslims only see the bad image of Christians (especially Americans) and don't realize that the majority of them are people just like them.

    If you don't want a religious building near Ground Zero, that's fine...but to justify forbidding a Mosque by saying that all Muslims are evil/terrorists is pretty shallow-sighted.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Probably closer than you think. And I'm assuming you mean worldwide, because in the US I'd be willing to say that at least 3,000 people have been killed by various Christian extremist groups...just not all at once. This includes all KKK attacks over the decades, neo-nazi's doing "God's" work, anti-abortion attacks on clinics, patients and doctors, Jim Jones and other Christian cults of the like...amongst others.
    If you’re going to make such an outrageous and stupid statement, then say it like you mean it and back it up with facts. What “at least 3,000 people”, when and where? Lists. Details. Not opinion and conjecture.

    The KKK was the terrorist wing of the democrat party. Their words, not mine. They created it. That’s what they called it. The KKK had zero, nil, nada to do with any church or Christianity. It was a political organization created to terrorize blacks and Republicans.

    nazism in any form is satanic. The “swastika”, or as it was known to Nazis, the hakenkreuz (broken cross) ,represented to them the broken power of the cross – deeply satanic. The third reich was occultic from the top on down. It was anti-Christ to its core. Millions of Christians were murdered in their death camps. I have seen the statistics on display in their museums in their death camps with my own eyes.

    The People’s Temple was a cult. Period. It had nothing to do with Christianity in any way, manner, or form. We lived in San Francisco at the time. I am very familiar with that story.

    Abortion clinics? Attacks on clinics, patients and doctors? Are you serious? Less than a dozen murders in 6 isolated instances over 16 years. Extremist groups? No, individuals. You like to quote wiki bull@#$%. Go look it up. It reads like a police blotter because that’s what it is – isolated crime – no worse than any other crimes. Don’t attempt to make it anything more.

    The following is directly lifted from wiki bull@#$%.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Worldwide though, you have the National Liberation Front of Tripura in India who are considered one of the top ten terrorist organizations in the world and have been known to finance their activities by producing pornographic films of men and women being raped and tortured for ransom. This group is tied to the insurgencies in Nagaland, which has to date claimed roughly 2,300 lives, and is still going on today. They are a Christian group.
    Or you could look at the situations in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics who have been killing and fighting for decades. I'm sure thousands of lives have been lost there as well over the years.
    You blame the “holocaust’ on Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions). I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.
    I have listened to a lot of ignorance in my lifetime. That statement ranks very near to the top. You have not the vaguest clue what you are talking about. 20 million died in nazi death camps. 6 million were Jews. “The rest” were Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Evangelicals, and every Christian denomination that existed in Germany and lands conquered by the nazis. They died at the hands of satanic barbarians because they were Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    The Lăncieri and The Iron Guard of Romania were Christian extremist groups (mostly active in the 20's,30's and 40's) that were known for terrorizing and massacring Jews and non-Christians. …
    The rest of your wiki bull@#$% isn’t worthy of comment. It was obviously written by a 7th grader.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    These are just a few examples...and more recent than "a helluva long time". There's more obvious examples like the Salem witch trials, all the Inquisitions and the Holy Wars that I could bring up as well. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find a lot more in many more countries that are quite recent as well.
    Please, do more digging. You might stumble upon reality. But until you are able to produce documented lists of millions of deaths directly at the hands of Christians of any denomination, don’t make absurd comparisons to the atrocities muslims have been committing for 1,300 years.
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    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution,
    but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by CantStop85 View Post
    I will defer to SteelCityMom's post as she has provided plenty of "good" examples:
    You got nothin. You quote nonsense because you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by CantStop85 View Post
    I The fact is there are bad Christians,... blah, blah, blah
    Post your views in a bunghole forum. More your speed.
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    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution,
    but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Sorry that you can't face the reality that there are crazy Christians willing to die for their faith like Islamic extremists. You can denounce the National Liberation Front of Tripura all you want because I got some of the info off of wiki (because I wasn't trying to spend my day citing examples), but they are a real terrorist organization who has committed horrible act...here you go.

    http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php

    And I don't blame the holocaust on Christianity. I said Jews and other Christians who didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs were murdered and that he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion. So, take from that what you want.


    Maybe YOU need to do some reading on the Iron Guard and Lancieri, because what I posted is 100% true. Start with Background and Precursors to the Holocaust...there's some very good information in there about how the Lancieri were attached to the National-Christian Defense League and the National Christian Party.

    For information on the Iron Guard, start with The Men of the Archangel" by Eugen Weber, in International Fascism: New Thoughts and Approaches. It's a matter of fact that when the Iron Guard was first formed, it was called "The Legion of the Archangel Michael"

    With Codreanu as a charismatic leader, the Legion was known for skillful propaganda, including a very capable use of spectacle. Utilizing marches, religious processions and patriotic and partisan hymns and anthems, along with volunteer work and charitable campaigns in rural areas in support of its anti-Communist, anti-Semitic, anti-liberal, and anti-parliamentary philosophy, the League presented itself as an alternative to corrupt, clientelist parties including the NCDL. Initially, the Iron Guard hoped to encompass any political faction, regardless of its position on the political spectrum, that wished to combat the rise of communism in the USSR.
    Like other clerical fascist movements of the time, the Iron Guard was vividly anti-Semitic, promoting the idea that "Rabbinical aggression against the Christian world" in "unexpected 'protean forms': Freemasonry, Freudianism, homosexuality, atheism, Marxism, Bolshevism, the civil war in Spain," were undermining society
    Constantin Iordachi, "Charisma, Religion, and Ideology: Romania's Interwar Legion of the Archangel Michael", in John R. Lampe, Mark Mazower (eds.), Ideologies and National Identities: The Case of Twentieth-century Southeastern Europe, Central European University Press, Budapest, 2004
    Fascism (Oxford Readers) edited by Roger Griffin, Part III, A., xi. "Romania", pg 219-222 (Oxford University Press, 1995, ISBN 0-19-289249-5).

    I also never said that the KKK was a Christian church in itself...but they all (or most I guess...I've never conversed with a KKK member), were blatantly members of various Christian churches. They were Christians, they were extremists, they formed a group and then killed a lot of people. If you want some proof of that, then I guess go talk to one of the nutty bastards. Better yet, talk to this a-hole. http://www.adl.org/backgrounders/ame...nights_kkk.asp

    As for the People's Temple...yes, they were a cult, but you're freaking delusional if you don't think they weren't Christian based. Jim Jones was a student pastor at a Methodist church before he left because they wouldn't allow blacks in the congregation. Heck, at one point the cult was called The Peoples Temple Christian Church Full Gospel. I don't know where you got the idea that just because he was a lunatic who formed his own lunatic church that it wasn't rooted in Christianity. It wasn't until close to the end of it all that he started denouncing traditional Christianity and parts of the Bible...but by that time he was basically preaching socialism as a religion and other nutty crap like that. He still preached about God though, be sure of that.

    As far as attacks against abortion clinics and doctors, don't fool yourself into thinking that the people doing those things aren't linked to churches or Christian groups that promote that kind of extreme violence. Hey, you should check out Army of God's website while you're at it...a lovely bunch of non-violent Christians they must be right? http://www.armyofgod.com/

    I apologize for not having the exact number of people killed by these good "Christian" folks, but I think it would be somewhat hard to find an exact detailed list. It's not crazy to think that over the decades the number has reached in the thousands.

    You didn't touch on the fact that the RNU and Lord's Resistance Army are real groups that are really killing people. If you need "proof" of that too, here ya go.

    LRA attacks...just a couple, If you want even more examples...look them up yourself.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7802804.stm
    http://allafrica.com/stories/200812310002.html
    But LRA leader Mr Kony remains as elusive as he was when the conflict began more than two decades ago.
    His long and brutal rebellion against the Ugandan government has left tens of thousands of people dead, driven some two million people from their homes and destabilised a swathe of central Africa.
    Last year, the LRA leader refused to sign a final peace deal thrashed out at two years of talks in neighbouring South Sudan - prompting the Ugandan military to lead the latest offensive.
    Mr Kony insists that the International Criminal Court withdraw arrest warrants against him and some of his closest allies, before he will sign the deal.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7926173.stm

    Fighters from the notorious Lord's Resistance Army raided several villages in a remote part of north-eastern DR Congo, killing and abducting children.
    Human Rights Watch says this is one of the worst massacres carried out by the LRA, whose fighters roam across several countries after spreading from Uganda. The rebel leaders initially claimed to be fighting to install a theocracy in Uganda based on the Biblical Ten Commandments, but they now sow terror in Sudan and Central African Republic, as well as DR Congo. In the latest attack, the rebels hacked to death villagers and made others carry looted goods. Some 250 people were abducted.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8587305.stm

    RNU

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/no...mosc-n15.shtml
    http://www.albionmonitor.com/0204a/c...nskinhead.html

    I know that the RNU is more of a neo-nazi movement...but they're Christians attacking non-Christians and foreigners. They are very right wing and very much support the Russian Orthodox Church. Here's a good paper on Ultra-nationalist Russian movements. Not much said about religion I suppose, but many of these attacks occur based on religious aspects.
    http://www.panorama.ru/works/patr/bp/finre.html

    And as far as committing atrocities for hundreds of years...have you ever heard of the Inquisitions? The Crusades? Really? I don't have a death count for you or anything, but I'm going out on a limb here and saying it was a lot.

    You can call me ignorant all you want, but I'm not the one sitting here denouncing one religions fanatics while turning a blind eye to Christianity's fanatics (worldwide). If I'm the ignorant one, I suppose I'd rather keep it that way.

    Also, before you go on to say that these Christian based extremist groups are more political than anything blah, blah, blah, I'd like to point out to you that religion and politics have gone hand in hand since man thought up the concept of religion. Always has been that way, always will be that way.
    Last edited by SteelCityMom; 06-19-2010 at 11:28 AM.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

    As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

    As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    Well I can’t argue with any of that, SCMom. I wish man, who falls short of God and Christlilkeness, had not done these unspeakable atrocities in His name, or that others had not committed terrorism in their god’s name. Personally, I think the real problem is people using ‘organized religion’ as a means of justifying their own prejudices and hatred. Some may have declared they were ‘doing God’s work’ when they committed heinous acts, but as a Christian, I can assure you they were not.

    As for the original topic, with me, it’s not even a religious thing. It would simply be a slap in the face to have a Mosque anywhere close to where the WTCs once stood.
    I'm with you on the first part, and understand you're opinion on the second (though it doesn't bother me as much as some). I know and have known a lot of good Christians, Jews, atheists, Muslims, Wiccans etc, etc...and it's a shame that anyone from any religion would use their faith in whatever god(s) as a weapon. But it's part of human nature unfortunately.

    No matter what, hopefully all of us on differing sides of the argument can agree on that.

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    Re: No mosque at Ground Zero

    First, let me say that I engage in these discussions because I like to compare views. And I like to “stress test” my own views. Inevitably I learn something. It’s a purely selfish pursuit, I confess. But what Internet banter isn’t? With that said…

    You’re all over the place Mom. You’ve gone from saying…

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    The holocaust (which was partly a Christian movement against Jews and Catholics amongst other religious factions).
    to…

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Sorry that you can't face the reality that there are crazy Christians willing to die for their faith like Islamic extremists.
    A “Christian movement“?? The holocaust had nothing to do with Christianity except that Christians were rounded up with Jews and systematically murdered. Whether or not you intended to make that statement, and I doubt that you did, it attempted to make Christianity at least in part responsible for the democide of 20 million people for the purpose of equating Christianity with islam. Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    I don't think I need to tell you how many people were killed then because they weren't Christians or didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs. He used a lot of Christian propaganda to sway public opinion.
    That was deeply offensive, but attributable to colossal ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    And I don't blame the holocaust on Christianity. I said Jews and other Christians who didn't subscribe to Hitler's insane beliefs were murdered and that he used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion. So, take from that what you want.
    Whether or not you blame the holocaust on Christianity, you made the statements. Then you tried to moderate your original statement by claiming that hitler “used Christian propaganda as a tool to sway public opinion”. You say these things. They’re nonsense. Back them up.

    Yes, some Christians are willing to lay down their lives. For their Lord. For their brethren. But not for political ends. That is solely the province of muslim extremism. In Christianity there is no promise of anything other than forgiveness and eternal life with the Lord. Conquest, politics, and the affairs of man aren’t on the radar.

    There are differences between being a Christian and being something else entirely but from a Christian denominational background. Following your logic we could reasonably call Uncle Joe a “Christian” because he was a seminary student prior to his man crush on Mrs. Lenin’s baby boy Vlad. History, anybody’s history, tells us that the opposite is true. Alois Schicklgruber’s little Adolf was baptized a Roman catholic. Perhaps that was the basis of your assertion that the “holocaust was a Christian movement”. Yet you correctly note that many Catholics were victims of the “movement”. If you’re unable to make the differentiation between Christians and those that came from “Christian” backgrounds, you shouldn’t attempt to draw analogies between Christianity and islam and it’s extreme elements. The two don’t coincide. Alois Schicklgruber, BTW, was Jewish. That’s why Jews referred to Dolf as “Herr Schicklgruber”. Those Jews were such a stitch!

    I’ve always differentiated one from the other by behavior. The “advertizing” is always wanting. The Christians I’ve known are servants, regardless of their station. They say and do little to reveal self interest. They’re quick to give of themselves and their resources without condition or agenda. I won’t say that that behavior is necessarily exclusive to Christians, but it is the common denominator in Christians I have known.

    My parents rented an apartment from the Greenbergs when I was born. The Greenbergs gave us my crib and furnishings because that is who they were. No fanfare. No agenda. Just “We want this for you”. I have seen that in as many Jews as I’ve seen regrettable behavior in “Christians”. In any event, the behavior is the differentiator, and that’s how I tell the Sneetches apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    You can denounce the National Liberation Front of Tripura all you want because I got some of the info off of wiki (because I wasn't trying to spend my day citing examples), but they are a real terrorist organization who has committed horrible act...here you go. http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php
    I have worked in India and have friends in that part of India but wasn’t aware of these people, so thanks.

    The site you reference here is clearly ideology driven and by all indications, seeks to slander Christianity. To wit…

    “The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by Missionaries from New Zealand in the 1940’s. Despite their efforts, even until 1980, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity. Realizing this, the Church used one of its most efficient and time-tested weapons of evangelization - creating racial and ethnic divide among the people. In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, engineered by the Church the NLFT was born in 1989 -- but not without the midwife role of the Baptist Church. From its very inception, the NLFT has been advancing the cause of Christianity through armed compulsion. Every trace of indigenous culture and religion is being eliminated through violent means. Every resisting group is made to bleed its way to extinction.

    The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) is heavily funded by many Baptist Churches. Just a year before the Baptist Church assisted the foundation of the NLFT, they called for Christians to target the “millions of Hindus and Jews lost in the darkness” of their respective faiths. The NLFT is basically a violent muscle arm of the church and its missionaries.

    Since the foundation of the NLFT, the Baptist Church has been supporting this violent campaign by providing funding and arms for the group.”.

    Interest piqued, I looked for corroborating information. All I could find was at http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5C...paper1564.html

    “Tripura, a northeastern Indian state has been in the grip of insurgency for over two decades now. But the tribal militants who initially took up arms to oppose the dominance of outsiders later became devoid of any ideology. The rank and file of militant organizations is now getting increasingly disenchanted as their leaders maintain double standards within the outfit.” No mention in the article of “Baptists” or “missionaries”.

    Regardless of the accounts, the NLFT’s behavior readily separates them from any “Christian” activity I’ve ever heard of. And the contrast between the two accounts would seem to betray one as, well, bull@#$%.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Maybe YOU need to do some reading on the Iron Guard and Lancieri, because what I posted is 100% true. Start with Background and Precursors to the Holocaust...there's some very good information in there about how the Lancieri were attached to the National-Christian Defense League and the National Christian Party.
    Before I go down this alley, I draw your attention to the scads of “Christian” political parties throughout the world. Referencing McEncyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cratic_parties , it’s a name used much like “democratic”, and means little more in their politics. If I’m to infer anything from this exchange of views, perhaps its that Christians should seek to curtail the use of their name, as it leads to misrepresentations. But I digress.

    See next post due to length.
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    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution,
    but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."

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