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Thread: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

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    Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Bill Belichick has received a good deal of well-deserved criticism for his role in Spygate. As the head coach of the New England Patriots there is little doubt that he was the mastermind behind the cheating scandal, and not only deserves the ire of fans across the league but also would probably have deserved a ban from the NFL under any other commissioner. Time apparently is the great physician, because once again we are hearing the sportswriters and television talking heads sing his praises and show short term memory loss in regards to actions that put the integrity of the NFL at stake.

    Yet, with all the back and forth of whether Belichick is a genius or a cheater, one thing has always amazed me. How is it that the quarterback of the asterisk-marked Patriots has eluded criticism? For seven years Tom Brady listened to a sideline coach in his helmet mike, who would tell him what the next defensive play would be. For seven years he padded his stats and his trophy case with the ill-gotten rewards of Spygate. How is it that fans do not see Brady as being complicit in cheating the NFL? Does anyone really think that the New England quarterback is so naïve that he never once questioned just how his coaches correctly predicted seven years worth of defensive plays? Brady either thought his coaches were psychic or he is a cheater.

    Have no doubt about it. Belichick is the equivalent of the high school mastermind who talked someone into stealing the test answers. Those that taped the signals are the high school thieves. Brady is the kid who paid for the answers. That makes him a cheater. A cheater who padded his test score without truly earning his grade.

    How much did cheating help the Patriots? Well, before Belichick started cheating, he was a coach with a winning percentage under 50%. After he started cheating he looked like a genius. He was caught cheating during the 2007 season and then failed to win a playoff game in 2008 and 2009. Don’t get me wrong, the Patriots are a very good team and Brady is a very good quarterback. Keep in mind, however, that the Patriots success (from cheating) drew talented players from across the league who wanted to be a part of the Patriots' good fortune. This helped to make them the team they are today and the influx of talent hasn’t hurt Brady’s stats. Do you really think that Randy Moss and Wes Welker would have been interested in playing for a new England team that was 5-11 for the last two or three years? Absolutely not, they were looking for a ring. Brady, to this day, has the advantage of players like Wes Walker who signed to play with a “winner.”

    What would Brady be without seven years of cheating? Historically, I think that Brady would have been regarded as a very good quarterback, but just how good? The question can probably never be answered because we have so few years of his career that are not stained by the controversy, but let’s take a stab at it. After a little research, I think that Brady probably compares most favorably to the Buffalo Bills' Jim Kelly.

    Great QBs play big in BIG games, and no game is bigger than the Super Bowl. Looking at the years in which both players led their teams to the championship game, its obvious that both put up great numbers. Brady had a QB rating of 88.3 and a completion rate of 61.6% in those three years he hefted the Lombardi. Jim Kelly had a QB rating of 91.6 and a completion rate of 61.8% over the course of his Super Bowl appearances.

    Incredible numbers by very good QBs.

    One of the major differences, of course, is that Kelly, after 4 consecutive Super Bowl appearances, never brought home a trophy. That fact does not take away from his ability or his accomplishments, even though some people look at Super Bowl wins as the ultimate litmus test. Brady has brought home three championship trophies, but all three during the Spygate era.

    Another difference, however, is that Kelly earned his stats without the benefit of stolen signals. Brady’s stats will be marred with an asterisk that will remind everyone that at least some of his achievements were the result of controversy. Brady’s ability and accomplishments will be looked at through the veil of Belichick’s decision to cheat.

    In reality, results that are based on honesty, hard work, and sportsmanship are the real litmus test of champions.

    Aren't they?


    © 2010 Steelers Universe




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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    great read as always LLT!


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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    very well said I would add that a cheater is a cheater and will look to cheat agen , it might be time to look in to them .

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Let me start with this. What New England did was wrong and they were deservedly punished. And to an extent, there is a "How much did it help?" cloud that hangs over their head.

    Having said that, I have to disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

    Brady alludes criticism because he wasn't directly involved with the illegal act. We have no idea how much he knew. Did he really know each and every defensive play? If that was the case, they should have won the Super Bowl every season. Brady did not "pay" for answers. He was not actively looking for signals. At least, there's no evidence to support that. '

    Yes, they didn't win a playoff game in 2008 and 2009. But you're badly skewing the numbers. After they got caught Week 1 of the 2007 season, they preceded not to lose a game until the Super Bowl. That means they won two playoff games. They were 11-5 in 2008 with Matt Cassell (you leave that out) and they made the playoffs last year. So they have been successful post-Spygate.

    Welker and Moss were traded to New England. Their interest level doesn't matter. They came here more by force than by choice.

    I think you're putting too much weight into the signal stealing. That alone is not going to make you a successful team. We know Belichick is an extremely hard worker. We know that the people around him are pure football junkies. Ernie Adams has helped keep video records of teams from years past (not signals mind you, gamefilm). He's also branched out into the statistical element of it. That's something a lot of teams didn't do or still haven't done. Frankly, they work harder than most other teams.

    Again, they were wrong in what they did. Clearly. But New England's dynasty is clearly much more than a product of Spygate. We're not only beating a dead horse; we're beating one that's been dead for quite some time. I don't know why it's being brought up again. It's like when the media would bring up the Steelers' steriod accusations in our Super Bowl runs. The Pats are tearing up the league (without stealing signals) which means we have to draw attention away from that and bring up Spygate.

    One last thing. Let's not act like we have never cheated either. Looking at the slip of paper that earned us the #1 pick of the 1956 draft was cheating on our part.

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    in 07 they already had signals of all the teams , we where led to believe that they destroyed them ( yea that happened ) .Tom is so smart to read defiance's but not to think the calls cumming in to him just happen to be right 95% of the time ..
    Putting too much weight into the signal stealing then how come Denver tried to do it .. it works
    we will never know how much help it gave them or not ,true .. and we must never forget they cheated .. talk of it often, tell everyone . they cheated -they cheated ..
    as for the 70s its was not agents the rules then ...

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by T&B fan View Post
    in 07 they already had signals of all the teams , we where led to believe that they destroyed them ( yea that happened ) .Tom is so smart to read defiance's but not to think the calls cumming in to him just happen to be right 95% of the time ..
    Putting too much weight into the signal stealing then how come Denver tried to do it .. it works
    we will never know how much help it gave them or not ,true .. and we must never forget they cheated .. talk of it often, tell everyone . they cheated -they cheated ..
    as for the 70s its was not agents the rules then ...
    Can I get a link to that thought?

    Do we know that the calls were always right? I find it hard to believe that they got the signals all or 95% of the time. Again, they would have been unstoppable if that happened.

    I'm not saying it doesn't have benefits, but we don't know how much it helped. Considering the success they've had since getting caught, their hard-work and ability to out gameplan you based on all the film they legally got is a much bigger help.

    Who's talking about the 70s?

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    no link just my thought .. 70s you said

    "Again, they were wrong in what they did. Clearly. But New England's dynasty is clearly much more than a product of Spygate. We're not only beating a dead horse; we're beating one that's been dead for quite some time. I don't know why it's being brought up again. It's like when the media would bring up the Steelers' steriod accusations in our Super Bowl runs. The Pats are tearing up the league (without stealing signals) which means we have to draw attention away from that and bring up Spygate."

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    Let me start with this. What New England did was wrong and they were deservedly punished. And to an extent, there is a "How much did it help?" cloud that hangs over their head.

    Having said that, I have to disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

    Brady alludes criticism because he wasn't directly involved with the illegal act. We have no idea how much he knew. Did he really know each and every defensive play? If that was the case, they should have won the Super Bowl every season. Brady did not "pay" for answers. He was not actively looking for signals. At least, there's no evidence to support that. '
    HE WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED. Whether Brady knew 20% or 70% of the plays is not the point. Brady KNEW that his coaches were correctly predicting things that there were NO WAY they should know. Especially with LeBeau's Fire blitz schemes. The whole point of our defense is that it hides the coverage until the snap. When Brady was told that the blitz is coming from the safety or he knows which OLB is going to be coming at him, he had to KNOW that signals had been stolen.

    Some of the teams that the Patriots played periodically run a radar dedensive scheme....and again...a correct call from his coaches as to where the blitz was coming from is impossible before the snap. I know this...so I can assure you that Brady knew this.

    Your argument about him "not knowing each and every play" is weak. Stealing 50%...30% ...or 10% of the plays is an advantage that WILL win you games. Heck, just being given the correct defensive allignment on CRITICAL plays is enough to win some games.

    Yes, they didn't win a playoff game in 2008 and 2009. But you're badly skewing the numbers. After they got caught Week 1 of the 2007 season, they preceded not to lose a game until the Super Bowl. That means they won two playoff games. They were 11-5 in 2008 with Matt Cassell (you leave that out) and they made the playoffs last year. So they have been successful post-Spygate.
    ...and you have missed my whole point. We know the exact year that the Patriots started cheating...and it coincides perfectly with their winning streak. We know when they got caught (2007)and the results were exactly what they should have been. They were a very good team who didnt have the ability to get over the hump.

    Welker and Moss were traded to New England. Their interest level doesn't matter. They came here more by force than by choice.
    Of course they were traded...but they were trades worked out through the players agents on behalf of theplayers. To say that Welker and Moss were "forced" into going to New England is incorrect. Here is the original ESPN story when he was traded.

    'Convinced in discussions with Randy Moss that he believes his NFL legacy is tied to winning a Super Bowl and not to individual accomplishments, the New England Patriots on Sunday acquired the electrifying but enigmatic wide receiver from the Oakland Raiders in exchange for a fourth-round draft choice........Far more important to coach Bill Belichick than any financial concessions by Moss, though, are the promises by the nine-year veteran receiver that he will fit into the Patriots' culture'
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft0...ory?id=2853116


    He made financial concession and promises to Belichick....Does that sound like a player who was "forced" to go to a team??? Sorry...but you are wrong on that point.


    I think you're putting too much weight into the signal stealing. That alone is not going to make you a successful team.
    I never said it could. Signal stealing doesnt make you a sucessful team...However, it does make a successful team a champion.

    We know Belichick is an extremely hard worker. We know that the people around him are pure football junkies. Ernie Adams has helped keep video records of teams from years past (not signals mind you, gamefilm). He's also branched out into the statistical element of it. That's something a lot of teams didn't do or still haven't done. Frankly, they work harder than most other teams.
    Really?....If Belichicks "work ethic" is the reason for his success, then why is his record outside the spygate era a dismal 41-64???

    Again, they were wrong in what they did. Clearly. But New England's dynasty is clearly much more than a product of Spygate. We're not only beating a dead horse; we're beating one that's been dead for quite some time. I don't know why it's being brought up again. It's like when the media would bring up the Steelers' steriod accusations in our Super Bowl runs. The Pats are tearing up the league (without stealing signals) which means we have to draw attention away from that and bring up Spygate.
    The point of the story was not about the Patriots spygate...Belichicks spygate...but rather it was about Bradys legacy in light of his involvement in the controvercy.

    In regards to New England "tearing the league up"..you can go back to my point that the team is now built on players that were drawn to the team under the false preise that they were winners...not cheaters. It certainly wasnt their draft ability. The little secret that the talking heads wont discuss is that Belichick has one of the worst draft minds in the game.

    One last thing. Let's not act like we have never cheated either. Looking at the slip of paper that earned us the #1 pick of the 1956 draft was cheating on our part
    Which is the moral equivelant of saying that no one should ever be prosecuted for retail theft since you stole a pack of bubble gum when you were 8 years old.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by T&B fan View Post
    no link just my thought .. 70s you said

    "Again, they were wrong in what they did. Clearly. But New England's dynasty is clearly much more than a product of Spygate. We're not only beating a dead horse; we're beating one that's been dead for quite some time. I don't know why it's being brought up again. It's like when the media would bring up the Steelers' steriod accusations in our Super Bowl runs. The Pats are tearing up the league (without stealing signals) which means we have to draw attention away from that and bring up Spygate."
    The point I was trying to make was the fact that these negative types of stories only show up when the team is doing really well. New England is arguably the best team in the league. If they were struggling, the liklihood of this article being posted is much smaller.

    I have no comment on to whether or not the Steelers of the 70s took steroids nor am I going to get into the legality/ethical side of it. That wasn't the point I was making.

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    The point I was trying to make was the fact that these negative types of stories only show up when the team is doing really well. New England is arguably the best team in the league. If they were struggling, the liklihood of this article being posted is much smaller.
    Again...wrong.

    You totally missed the point of the article. This was not a sour grapes-I hate the Patriots-article. It was about Brady and the legitimacy of where he stands historically as a QB. Hell...I even compared him to Hall of Famer!!!

    To make that point you have to talk about the facts surrounding Brady....and to ignore the impact that spygate played upon his stats is intellectually dishonest.

    Again....Brady is a great QB...but his knowledge of...and his involvement in spygate take him out of the stratosphere that some sports writers and commentators would place him.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    I like seeing LLT and Chidi disagree. You guys know your stuff and it provides for a good debate.


    In order to be a smartass, you have to be smart. Otherwise, you're just an ass.

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    HE WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED. Whether Brady knew 20% or 70% of the plays is not the point. Brady KNEW that his coaches were correctly predicting things that there were NO WAY they should know. Especially with LeBeau's Fire blitz schemes. The whole point of our defense is that it hides the coverage until the snap. When Brady was told that the blitz is coming from the safety or he knows which OLB is going to be coming at him, he had to KNOW that signals had been stolen.

    Some of the teams that the Patriots played periodically run a radar dedensive scheme....and again...a correct call from his coaches as to where the blitz was coming from is impossible before the snap. I know this...so I can assure you that Brady knew this.

    Your argument about him "not knowing each and every play" is weak. Stealing 50%...30% ...or 10% of the plays is an advantage that WILL win you games. Heck, just being given the correct defensive allignment on CRITICAL plays is enough to win some games.



    ...and you have missed my whole point. We know the exact year that the Patriots started cheating...and it coincides perfectly with their winning streak. We know when they got caught (2007)and the results were exactly what they should have been. They were a very good team who didnt have the ability to get over the hump.



    Of course they were traded...but they were trades worked out through the players agents on behalf of theplayers. To say that Welker and Moss were "forced" into going to New England is incorrect. Here is the original ESPN story when he was traded.

    'Convinced in discussions with Randy Moss that he believes his NFL legacy is tied to winning a Super Bowl and not to individual accomplishments, the New England Patriots on Sunday acquired the electrifying but enigmatic wide receiver from the Oakland Raiders in exchange for a fourth-round draft choice........Far more important to coach Bill Belichick than any financial concessions by Moss, though, are the promises by the nine-year veteran receiver that he will fit into the Patriots' culture'
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft0...ory?id=2853116


    He made financial concession and promises to Belichick....Does that sound like a player who was "forced" to go to a team??? Sorry...but you are wrong on that point.




    I never said it could. Signal stealing doesnt make you a sucessful team...However, it does make a successful team a champion.



    Really?....If Belichicks "work ethic" is the reason for his success, then why is his record outside the spygate era a dismal 41-64???



    The point of the story was not about the Patriots spygate...Belichicks spygate...but rather it was about Bradys legacy in light of his involvement in the controvercy.

    In regards to New England "tearing the league up"..you can go back to my point that the team is now built on players that were drawn to the team under the false preise that they were winners...not cheaters. It certainly wasnt their draft ability. The little secret that the talking heads wont discuss is that Belichick has one of the worst draft minds in the game.



    Which is the moral equivelant of saying that no one should ever be prosecuted for retail theft since you stole a pack of bubble gum when you were 8 years old.
    No, he was not directly involved. The only people directly involved where the ones organizing the taping. That would be the camera guy that got caught and Belichick. Possibly one of the assistant coaches that helps put together video. But Brady isn't taping the signals. He's not being the errand boy running the video to the coaches. Unless there's evdience proving otherwise, his weekly routine hasn't changed from pre to post Spygate.

    You don't think the Patriots are able to sniff out defensive schemes now? The way they picked us apart earlier in the year? Knowing all the work the Pats put in, they can pick apart a team pretty well now.

    Again, I realize it benefited them. And what they did was wrong and they were deservingly punished for it. But leave Brady out of this. This wasn't his doing. It was the doing of the front office and management. Don't punish him for something he wasn't the cause of.

    They were a "very good" team in 2007? I'm sorry but they were way more than that. They put on the most dominant offensive performance we have ever seen and may ever see for a long time. They've had well over .500 records in the three years since they've been caught. This year is the 4th.

    Of course Moss will "promise" to fit into the team. What's he going to say? No, I'm not. And by force, I meant that he was traded and whether he would have been thrilled by it or not, he was going. It wasn't like he was a free agent and was free to sign with the team.

    Once again, you're skewing the data. It's not uncommon for a coach to struggle when he first starts coaching and he was working with a less talented team. Let's face it, the more talented team you come into, the better your record will be. Check his record after Spygate. He's having great success.

    Yeah, the draft pick even occured a long time ago but does that make it ok just because it happened a long time ago? Will Spygate be ok thirty years from now? The Rooney's were adults at this time. They took an advantage to ensure they'd get the #1 pick.

    Going back to the point I've made before about the hard work. Check out this article about Ernie Adams, a researcher for the Pats.

    "Adams' contributions to the Patriots begin with film. Hours and hours of film, often in his darkened office. He has been doing this for years, first at Northwestern in the early 1970s, where he convinced coaches to let him go from student-manager to scout. "He was a prodigy," says Rick Venturi, an assistant on that Wildcats team.

    By now, after years of evolution, Adams sees film differently. Not just as random actions, but a genealogy of the game of football. When a defender moves, he recalls watching or having read about the first time a defender moved like that, even if it was 50 years ago, and he knows why, which tells him how to counteract the move. He has a photographic memory. Perkins tells a story of Adams' memorizing the Giants' thick playbook. In one night."


    Adams' official title is director of football research, and he does a lot of that, too, trolling the world for things that might offer the slightest advantage. A year or two ago, an Andover teammate ran across an obscure out-of-print book on nonlinear mathematics. He thought Adams might find a use for it, so he mailed it to him. Adams had already read it. Or there's Rutgers statistics professor Harold Sackrowitz, who got a call from Adams a few years back. Adams wanted to talk about some research Sackrowitz had just completed, dealing with how teams try two-point conversions far too often. Adams sent the professor the Patriots' when-to-go-for-two chart, and asked Sackrowitz to tear it apart. Of the 32 NFL teams, the statistician told the New York Times, only the Patriots called.

    Here's another example: The academic paper of a Berkeley researcher, referenced in the same Times story, dealt with how teams punt on fourth down far too often. That paper ended up on Belichick's desk. Now, how do you imagine it got there?

    On game day, Adams wears a headset in the press box, a direct line to Belichick. Adams advises Belichick on which plays to challenge, and charts trends. "The one thing the Patriots do better than anyone else is they adjust and make halftime adjustments," Sturges says. "Ernie Adams is the guy who does that."

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    so that means Ernie Adams is the genus not Bill Belichick ..

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by T&B fan View Post
    so that means Ernie Adams is the genus not Bill Belichick ..
    Or it means they're both football geniuses and their knowledge plus long friendship, going back to the 70s and their college days at Andover, makes them wildly successful.

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    No, he was not directly involved. The only people directly involved where the ones organizing the taping. That would be the camera guy that got caught and Belichick. Possibly one of the assistant coaches that helps put together video. But Brady isn't taping the signals. He's not being the errand boy running the video to the coaches. [/i]
    Brady knowingly recieved illegal information that he knew would give him an advantage. If I steal a term paper and whisper the answers to you while we take the test, and you choose to write down those answers...YOU ARE INVOLVED. No amount of rabbit trails change that fact. Brady using the information makes him a cheater.

    Unless there's evdience proving otherwise, his weekly routine hasn't changed from pre to post Spygate.

    You don't think the Patriots are able to sniff out defensive schemes now? The way they picked us apart earlier in the year? Knowing all the work the Pats put in, they can pick apart a team pretty well now.
    All Quarterbacks read defenses...but certain defenses are built around disquising schemes...fire zone blitz....radar ...etc. and all teams regardless of whether they run a 4-3 or a 3-4 will often attempt to hide their scheme at some point. You can say that Brady reads defenses the same way now as he did before spygate...but that is irrelevent to the fact that he was given ILLEGALLY OBTAINED information that added to what he saw on the field.

    Again, I realize it benefited them.
    Stop there. Please tell me who recieved the information on the field so that it "benefited" the team. Thats right....Brady recieved the stolen signals and then passed it on to the rest of the team.


    And what they did was wrong and they were deservingly punished for it. But leave Brady out of this. This wasn't his doing. It was the doing of the front office and management. Don't punish him for something he wasn't the cause of.
    Really?...he wasnt involved even though you admit the team benefited from the information fed into his ear mike?...Please explain to me who gave the rest of the offense the information after he recieved it.


    They were a "very good" team in 2007? I'm sorry but they were way more than that. They put on the most dominant offensive performance we have ever seen and may ever see for a long time. They've had well over .500 records in the three years since they've been caught. This year is the 4th.
    I said that the Patriots would have been a very good team without cheating...cheating just put them over the top and created an atmosphere in which talented players wanted to play for them. The record they over the last several years are a DIRECT result of those players who thought they were going to a "winning" team...not a "cheating" team.

    Of course Moss will "promise" to fit into the team. What's he going to say? No, I'm not. And by force, I meant that he was traded and whether he would have been thrilled by it or not, he was going. It wasn't like he was a free agent and was free to sign with the team.
    Again...that is a distortion of the facts. Moss was being shopped around and while in talks with the Patriots, he said that he would take less money to play with them then for other teams.

    Once again, you're skewing the data. It's not uncommon for a coach to struggle when he first starts coaching and he was working with a less talented team. Let's face it, the more talented team you come into, the better your record will be. Check his record after Spygate. He's having great success.
    And how exactly are you dismissing the fact that his winning record coincides perfectly with his cheating? Prior to cheating the Patriots had 4 winning seaons in the prior 12 years.
    I have explained that talent drawn to the team, because of the Patriots cheating, explains the talent on the team now and explains the subsequent record.


    Going back to the point I've made before about the hard work. Check out this article about Ernie Adams, a researcher for the Pats.

    "Adams' contributions to the Patriots begin with film. Hours and hours of film, often in his darkened office. He has been doing this for years, first at Northwestern in the early 1970s, where he convinced coaches to let him go from student-manager to scout. "He was a prodigy," says Rick Venturi, an assistant on that Wildcats team.

    By now, after years of evolution, Adams sees film differently. Not just as random actions, but a genealogy of the game of football. When a defender moves, he recalls watching or having read about the first time a defender moved like that, even if it was 50 years ago, and he knows why, which tells him how to counteract the move. He has a photographic memory. Perkins tells a story of Adams' memorizing the Giants' thick playbook. In one night."


    [i]Adams' official title is director of football research, and he does a lot of that, too, trolling the world for things that might offer the slightest advantage. A year or two ago, an Andover teammate ran across an obscure out-of-print book on nonlinear mathematics. He thought Adams might find a use for it, so he mailed it to him. Adams had already read it. Or there's Rutgers statistics professor Harold Sackrowitz, who got a call from Adams a few years back. Adams wanted to talk about some research Sackrowitz had just completed, dealing with how teams try two-point conversions far too often. Adams sent the professor the Patriots' when-to-go-for-two chart, and asked Sackrowitz to tear it apart. Of the 32 NFL teams, the statistician told the New York Times, only the Patriots called.

    Here's another example: The academic paper of a Berkeley researcher, referenced in the same Times story, dealt with how teams punt on fourth down far too often. That paper ended up on Belichick's desk. Now, how do you imagine it got there?

    On game day, Adams wears a headset in the press box, a direct line to Belichick. Adams advises Belichick on which plays to challenge, and charts trends. "The one thing the Patriots do better than anyone else is they adjust and make halftime adjustments," Sturges says. "Ernie Adams is the guy who does that
    Yawn.....every team has the same guy in the press box. That is one article written about one guy. How much do you want to bet that I can find an article about the "Hard Work" that goes on behind the scenes of the Bengals organization?
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

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  16. #16
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a brilliant future"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Brady knowingly recieved illegal information that he knew would give him an advantage. If I steal a term paper and whisper the answers to you while we take the test, and you choose to write down those answers...YOU ARE INVOLVED. No amount of rabbit trails change that fact. Brady using the information makes him a cheater.



    All Quarterbacks read defenses...but certain defenses are built around disquising schemes...fire zone blitz....radar ...etc. and all teams regardless of whether they run a 4-3 or a 3-4 will often attempt to hide their scheme at some point. You can say that Brady reads defenses the same way now as he did before spygate...but that is irrelevent to the fact that he was given ILLEGALLY OBTAINED information that added to what he saw on the field.



    Stop there. Please tell me who recieved the information on the field so that it "benefited" the team. Thats right....Brady recieved the stolen signals and then passed it on to the rest of the team.




    Really?...he wasnt involved even though you admit the team benefited from the information fed into his ear mike?...Please explain to me who gave the rest of the offense the information after he recieved it.




    I said that the Patriots would have been a very good team without cheating...cheating just put them over the top and created an atmosphere in which talented players wanted to play for them. The record they over the last several years are a DIRECT result of those players who thought they were going to a "winning" team...not a "cheating" team.



    Again...that is a distortion of the facts. Moss was being shopped around and while in talks with the Patriots, he said that he would take less money to play with them then for other teams.



    And how exactly are you dismissing the fact that his winning record coincides perfectly with his cheating? Prior to cheating the Patriots had 4 winning seaons in the prior 12 years.
    I have explained that talent drawn to the team, because of the Patriots cheating, explains the talent on the team now and explains the subsequent record.




    Yawn.....every team has the same guy in the press box. That is one article written about one guy. How much do you want to bet that I can find an article about the "Hard Work" that goes on behind the scenes of the Bengals organization?
    Of course he's involved. Every member of that team and every member of that organization was involved by virute of being a Patriot.

    But he wasn't "directly" involved as you claimed above. You even put the "directly" in big 'ol caps for everyone to see. Brady was not involved in getting the signals. Nor was he involved in the idea of taping signals. Again, his weekly routine likely didn't change during Spygate and before/after it. There is a difference between being directly involved and involved. Pick one.

    My whole point is not to fault Brady for something he didn't have any control over. Blame Belichick if you want. That's fine with me. But I don't want to tarnish Brady's name for something that wasn't directly his fault. It's not like he's turned to mush after they were caught.

    Either way, Moss, Welker, and whatever FA would probably be going to New England with or without Spygate. Free agents tend to like going to "very good" teams too.

    It doesn't coincide "perfectly" with the cheating. Again, Belichick is doing an awesome job after the event. They didn't become AFC East bottomdwellers after they were caught. As I've said before, stealing signals did not make him or the Pats who they are. It helped them (as I've said which you've continued to ignore, as if anyone who disagrees with you must be Robert Kraft himself) but the majority of the Pats success came from hard work, the genius of Belichick, and the excellent QB play of Brady.

    I've stated that other teams work very hard but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone with the same story as Adams. Especially when you combine that with 30+ years of friendship with Belichick.

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    Super Moderator Array title="LLT has a reputation beyond repute"> LLT's Avatar
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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chidi29 View Post
    Of course he's involved. Every member of that team and every member of that organization was involved by virute of being a Patriot.

    But he wasn't "directly" involved as you claimed above. You even put the "directly" in big 'ol caps for everyone to see. Brady was not involved in getting the signals. Nor was he involved in the idea of taping signals. Again, his weekly routine likely didn't change during Spygate and before/after it. There is a difference between being directly involved and involved. Pick one.
    Thats easy...DIRECTLY involved.

    He KNEW that his coaches were cheating...He KNEW that they were providing him with stolen signals...He CHOSE to use those signals to his advantage. That moment in which Brady made the ethical decision to keep silent and accept those signals...he became DIRECTLY involved in spygate.

    In the real world this is the equivelent of "insider trading"; using information that the general public does not have access to, to gain a personal advantage...generally at the disadvantage of others. Believe me....If someone made me privy to insider information and I "CHOSE" to use that information on the stock market...the law would deem me to be "DIRECTLY" involved.

    My whole point is not to fault Brady for something he didn't have any control over.
    But he did...He did have control over his decision to be complicit.


    Blame Belichick if you want. That's fine with me. But I don't want to tarnish Brady's name for something that wasn't directly his fault. It's not like he's turned to mush after they were caught.
    ...and this is a point that we have already gone over. Brady is a great QB but he is a great QB who now has padded stats. Cheating doesnt make a person great QB...but it obviously can make a great QB a champion.

    Either way, Moss, Welker, and whatever FA would probably be going to New England with or without Spygate. Free agents tend to like going to "very good" teams too.
    Follow your own logic...If FA's tend to go to "very good" teams....and if spygate gave the Patriots an advantage...then spygate was directly involved in drawing talent to the team.

    It doesn't coincide "perfectly" with the cheating.
    Belichick admitted that he startted taping in 2000....prior to that point he was a losing coach, after that point he suddenly became a "genious".



    They didn't become AFC East bottomdwellers after they were caught. As I've said before, stealing signals did not make him or the Pats who they are. It helped them (as I've said which you've continued to ignore, as if anyone who disagrees with you must be Robert Kraft himself) but the majority of the Pats success came from hard work, the genius of Belichick, and the excellent QB play of Brady.
    It is you who is ignoring this portion of the debate. I will say it again:

    1) The Patriots are a very good team....that needed to cheat to put themselves into an elite category
    2) Their success after spygate is a direct result of talent that was drawn to a "winner"...not knowing that they were cheating.
    3) Belichick is not a genious...he is a poor decision maker (look at the colts/pats game where he went for it on 4th down even though he was ahead...and then lost the game)...he is a poor judge of talent (his drafts are some of the worst in the league) His saving grace is the fact that he wasnt caught cheating until FA's decided to come to his team under false assumptions.

    I've stated that other teams work very hard but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone with the same story as Adams. Especially when you combine that with 30+ years of friendship with Belichick
    You got me there...I concure that no one has the SAME story as Adams. Strangely enough...no one has the SAME story as me. (By the way...30 + years of friendship with an adulterous...signal stealing...POS, isnt exactly a positive thing.)

    The bottom line is...Adams could be the hardest working man in the business...it does not take away form the Patriots asterick driven record....and it does not absolve Brady from his decision to gain from that cheating.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

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  18. #18
    Spaghetti Time Array title="Chidi29 has a brilliant future"> Chidi29's Avatar

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Thats easy...DIRECTLY involved.

    He KNEW that his coaches were cheating...He KNEW that they were providing him with stolen signals...He CHOSE to use those signals to his advantage. That moment in which Brady made the ethical decision to keep silent and accept those signals...he became DIRECTLY involved in spygate.

    In the real world this is the equivelent of "insider trading"; using information that the general public does not have access to, to gain a personal advantage...generally at the disadvantage of others. Believe me....If someone made me privy to insider information and I "CHOSE" to use that information on the stock market...the law would deem me to be "DIRECTLY" involved.



    But he did...He did have control over his decision to be complicit.




    ...and this is a point that we have already gone over. Brady is a great QB but he is a great QB who now has padded stats. Cheating doesnt make a person great QB...but it obviously can make a great QB a champion.



    Follow your own logic...If FA's tend to go to "very good" teams....and if spygate gave the Patriots an advantage...then spygate was directly involved in drawing talent to the team.



    Belichick admitted that he startted taping in 2000....prior to that point he was a losing coach, after that point he suddenly became a "genious".




    It is you who is ignoring this portion of the debate. I will say it again:

    1) The Patriots are a very good team....that needed to cheat to put themselves into an elite category
    2) Their success after spygate is a direct result of talent that was drawn to a "winner"...not knowing that they were cheating.
    3) Belichick is not a genious...he is a poor decision maker (look at the colts/pats game where he went for it on 4th down even though he was ahead...and then lost the game)...he is a poor judge of talent (his drafts are some of the worst in the league) His saving grace is the fact that he wasnt caught cheating until FA's decided to come to his team under false assumptions.



    You got me there...I concure that no one has the SAME story as Adams. Strangely enough...no one has the SAME story as me. (By the way...30 + years of friendship with an adulterous...signal stealing...POS, isnt exactly a positive thing.)

    The bottom line is...Adams could be the hardest working man in the business...it does not take away form the Patriots asterick driven record....and it does not absolve Brady from his decision to gain from that cheating.
    I really don't see how you can lump in Brady with the people who actually had the idea and put the idea in action (i.e. physically videotaping the signals). If it's so obvious that Brady knew what they were doing, then it'd be safe for you to assume the whole team knew what they were doing. And since no one spoke up, they are all equally directly involved. Belichick and the man actually doing the videotaping down to the receiver who would occassionally rotate in. That's an absurd claim to make.

    And let's be honest. How many people would out their team like that? That's putting the players in a very difficult posiition.

    Yes, Spygate gave them an advantage. I don't think it was as big of one as some make it out to be but it was an advantage. I haven't denied that at any point. My first post was prefaced by saying that what they did was wrong and they were deservedly punished for it. But Spygate is not who the Patriots are. Take that away and players would still love to go there.

    Again, Belichick had a better group of talent when he took over the Patriots in 2000. That is a bigger reason to his success than Spygate as evident by the success he's had after they were caught (18-1 season in 2007, 11-5 without Brady in 2008, playoffs last year, Super Bowl favorites right now this season).

    I think they were elite in 2007 without the aid of taping signals.

    Him going for it on 4th down isn't a product of a bad decision. It's a product of a guy like Ernie Adams who goes that extra mile to get statistical information that says teams punt too often on 4th down. It's actually things like that that seperate New England and other teams, in a good way.

    You caught me....I was actually looking for a clone of Adams. A replica of him. You know, to make a great Christmas story.

  19. #19
    Administrator Array title="HometownGal has a reputation beyond repute"> HometownGal's Avatar

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    Re: Brady's Legacy (by LLT - December 14, 2010)

    LLT - this article is awesome! I know I told you exactly that when you submitted the article to us for approval but it bears repeating again.

    I'm loving the debate between you and Chidi! Respectful, intelligent and informative debate is what we strive for here at SU. Great job guys!






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