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Thread: "Separation of Church and State"

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    member since day 1 Array title="7SteelGal43 is a name known to all"> 7SteelGal43's Avatar

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    "Separation of Church and State"

    Can anybody find for me this phrase in the Constitution of the United States ? Please, take all the time you need.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Reigning Black & Gold Array title="venom has a reputation beyond repute"> venom's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    I think its easier to find Obama's birth certificate , lol

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Funny this thread came about. Just got done doing a research paper for a polysci class I am taking and I had to do it on state constitutions. Every state in our union has a mention of God in their state constitutions, whether it be just God, Almighty God, or a reference to a higher power. Some states have it written in their constitutions that you cannot hold political office, be a juror or witness, and other stuff if you are an aethiest. Just some geewhiz info.

    OK everyone, now get back to finding that reference she asked for!
    "The mountains are calling and I must go!" -- John Muir

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    The separation of church and state is a legal and political principle derived from various documents of several of the Founders of the United States. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." The modern concept is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them. The metaphor was intended, as the U.S. Supreme Court has currently interpreted it since 1947, to mean that religion and government must stay separate for the benefit of both, including the idea that the government must not impose religion on Americans nor create any law requiring it. It has since been in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court,[1] though the Court has not always fully embraced the principle.[2][3][4][5][6]

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    The phrase itself does not appear in the Constitution. However (as any good conservative knows) the Founders' original intent means more than the exact wording. This is why we have our 2nd Amdt rights despite not being members of the National guard; the folks who wrote that amendment discussed outside the Constitution exactly what they meant when they wrote it.
    And so... on to the original source of the quote:

    Mr. President

    To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    (signed) Thomas Jefferson
    Jan.1.1802.
    You may recognize the name? Thomas Jefferson is the guy who wrote the 1st Amendment.

    /end history lesson

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    Official Troll Array title="The Patriot is a name known to all"> The Patriot's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    ^
    this

    You can bring your religious beliefs to office, but you can't force them on people with law.

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    member since day 1 Array title="7SteelGal43 is a name known to all"> 7SteelGal43's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    steeldawg, does the phrase "separation of Church and State" appear in the constitution or not ?
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    steeldawg, does the phrase "separation of Church and State" appear in the constitution or not ?
    Not the exact phrase, but, The First Amendment to the United States Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    ^
    this

    You can bring your religious beliefs to office, but you can't force them on people with law.
    ........nor can you force them not to worship freely with law.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    ........nor can you force them not to worship freely with law.
    Who said anything about forcing people not to worship by law.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Not the exact phrase, but, The First Amendment to the United States Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof .
    exactly, which to me means "hey government, leave the Churches alone"
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Who said anything about forcing people not to worship by law.
    was just finishing what the Patriot said, steeldawg, that's all
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    exactly, which to me means "hey government, leave the Churches alone"
    Yes it does we have freedom of religion if you havent noticed. seperation of church in state basically means they can not base a law off of a religous belief, Its not an attack on churches.

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    exactly, which to me means "hey government, leave the Churches alone"
    Yes. It means that the church leaves the government alone and the government leaves the church alone.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    no there is not the wording of "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. the debate of course, which has already been touched on, is the intent of the Founders of the 1st amendment. one side always points to the letter from Jefferson to extrapolate the meaning. however, it can be deemed as more of a putting of ease to the recipients of the letter, that govt. will not intrude on the Church. depends on who you ask, as it goes.
    Jefferson was not the only person to have input on the Declaration, as well as the Constitution. Many writings either can dispute the notion now understood as separtation of church and state, or other writings that give the present understanding of this phrase. this debate continues to rage on...and will continue to. so, if that is what is desired....go for it.....iv'e been a part of it on many debates, and i know where i stand. i just don't feel like adding more to it than this little blurb, at the present. its tiring.
    When a child cries....somewhere in a small, lonely, sad place in the world.....a hobo laughs.

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    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    You can bring your religious beliefs to office, but you can't force them on people with law.
    Most of our laws are based on Judeo–Christian principles. Note: How many of our laws are based on Sharia law? It seems religious beliefs, in particular Judeo-Christian beliefs, HAVE been forced on us with law.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Yes it does we have freedom of religion if you havent noticed.
    Really? My kids are free to pray in school? Judges are free to display the Ten Commandments in their courtrooms? I can cite countless examples of how our freedom of religion is trampled upon, all in the name of the false concept of separation of church and state.

    Our founding fathers feared a government that would try to interfere in religion and tell people how to worship, hence "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." In other words, the government can't tell you what to believe in, how to worship, or force you to worship at all.

    Now let's look at this: "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
    By telling people they can't worship exactly how they want or where they want, as "separation of church and state" does, the government is most definitely prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

    The Constitution is quite clear. The government can NOT tell people how to worship or when and where they can't worship. Separation of church and state is in direct conflict with this principle.

    Our founding fathers' intent was to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government.

    Since someone brought up Thomas Jefferson, let's looks at his views on religion ...

    "The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

    "Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

    "Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

    "One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

    "The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. (*) ME 2:303, Papers 2:546

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    Official Troll Array title="The Patriot is a name known to all"> The Patriot's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Most of our laws are based on Judeo–Christian principles. Note: How many of our laws are based on Sharia law? It seems religious beliefs, in particular Judeo-Christian beliefs, HAVE been forced on us with law.
    The only Judeo-Christian principles this government enforces are the ones that affect other people. You need basic laws like "don't kill" or "don't steal" to have a functioning society, but the government doesn't enforce laws like "honor thy father".

    Your kids should be able to pray in school. I don't know how that ever became against the law. They should not, however, be forced to pray in school. You can appreciate this rule by imagining how you would feel if you heard a teacher was making your kids pray to Allah. Separation of Church and state in public schools just means children shouldn't be forced to accept a certain faith to attend.

    Judges are different; they're supposed to remain impartial.

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    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Your kids should be able to pray in school. I don't know how that ever became against the law. They should not, however, be forced to pray in school. You can appreciate this rule by imagining how you would feel if you heard a teacher was making your kids pray to Allah.
    We completely agree on this.
    If a teacher in a public school was discussing Christianity with his/her students and not mentioning other religions, or talking about other religions disparagingly, then that's wrong. That's what our founding fathers feared ... having religion, or a specific religion, forced on us.

    The First Amendment states:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    If people feel there should be a separation of church and state, then shouldn't there also be separation of free speech and state?
    Or a separation of the press and state?
    But that wouldn't make any sense ... and neither does separation of church and state. And that's not how they intended the First Amendment to be interpreted.

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Really? My kids are free to pray in school?
    Actually, yes so long as the prayer is not led by a teacher who is a government employee.
    Judges are free to display the Ten Commandments in their courtrooms?
    Absolutely not. They must separate their official duty as a government representative from their personal observation of faith.
    I can cite countless examples of how our freedom of religion is trampled upon, all in the name of the false concept of separation of church and state.
    I'm sure you could, as could I. But you have yet to do so in this thread.
    I'll provide an example for free: In New York City it is illegal for clergy to conduct same-sex marriages even though it is a religious ceremony and in line with their religious beliefs. The police will arrest the clergy for practicing their faith.

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    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Actually, yes so long as the prayer is not led by a teacher who is a government employee.
    My interpretation of organized prayer was way off. While organized prayer is deemed unconstitutional, private prayer is not. As someone who isn't religious and doesn't really care all that much about prayer in school, I had to do a little more research. But you are, in fact, correct. Students can pray as long as they aren't encouraged to do so and it doesn't interfere with school activities.

    Quite frankly, I've never been a big proponent of praying in school. You're in school to learn. If you want to pray, do it on your own time. Besides, students lose a lot of their rights when they're in school. Try talking in class and claim freedom of speech.

    I've always used the prayer in school argument to help bolster my overall argument, and you're the first person to call me out on it and prove me wrong. You made me rethink my position on the subject, so good job. That's what debates should be about.

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    Senior Member Array title="The WH will become famous soon enough"> The WH's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    exactly, which to me means "hey government, leave the Churches alone"
    Mosques, however, are free game.

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by The WH View Post
    Mosques, however, are free game.
    LOL, great point!!!

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Wallace,
    It takes a big man to readjust in the face of new facts. My hat's off to you!

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    member since day 1 Array title="7SteelGal43 is a name known to all"> 7SteelGal43's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by The WH View Post
    Mosques, however, are free game.

    yeah. we should really be more accommodating and let at least ONE Mosque be built in the United States, just to show good faith............oh, wait...
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Senior Member Array title="The WH will become famous soon enough"> The WH's Avatar

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    Re: "Separation of Church and State"

    Quote Originally Posted by 7SteelGal43 View Post
    yeah. we should really be more accommodating and let at least ONE Mosque be built in the United States, just to show good faith............oh, wait...
    or try to not force the government into stepping in and controlling where one is built.

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