Playoff records are how you should be defined

[pczach]

Yes ..........

he is losing more than his peers as he is 8-11 in playoff games and since in every game you have 1 winner and 1 loser anything under .500 is losing more than your peers

I don't know if you have been watching Hard Knocks on HBO, but on the next to last episode Jim Harbaugh was talking the entire team as they were preparing for their playoff game. He actually talked about Chuck Noll and gave his team some great Noll sayings. Harbaugh told his team that they don't like the Steelers....but they respect them....right?. I found it amazing that a Ravens coach was quoting Chuck Noll, and the team seemed mesmerized by how simple and profound Noll's messages were.

Harbaugh stated that Noll talked about fundamentals and if you don't do the basic things well, the rest doesn't matter. You can't play well if you can't do the simple football things well.

I thought it was awesome, and I wondered if Tomlin ever embraces Noll's coaching style and addresses the team like that to share the thoughts of another great Steelers coach?

[ETL]

To me, even if the Steelers got the best head coach that currently exists on the face of the earth but they don’t have a superstar talent at QB - they ain’t winning shit.

And if Antonio Pierce or Matt Eberflus or Robert Saleh or any other “failure” that was fired this year had Patrick Maholm as their QB for the past several years - they would have a shot of winning the SB every year.

It’s a QB dominated league and the NFL knows it and deliberately designed it that way. Why? Because superstars at qB increases scoring and bring ratings. the game sucks when QBs suck. Changes in rules to protect the qB and make it easier to gain yards in passing with interference rules, no headhunting rules have increased scoring and the league is laughing its way to the bank because the fans are loving the scoring.

it’s easy to fire coaches and cut players but it’s difficult to find a franchise QB as it takes some luck. KC currently is basking in glory with Maholm but had no QB for almost 60 years before him.

This is why I am not so keen on getting rid of Tomlin. If anything Buffalo with Allen getting rid of their HC makes more sense than Pittsburgh with no QB talent getting rid of theirs.

Going forward - what do we do? Rooney is not a scumbag as another thread alleges but be is hesitant to do a full rebuild and that may prolong the purgatory that we are in as both Bradshaw and Roethlisberger were drafted after losing seasons. (if the Steelers go 6-10 like Cowher did in 2003 - this board would have crucified Cowher) And drafting in the bottom half of the order year after year makes it harder to find the next franchise QB. But what else can they do? They aren’t going to tank games. And they rarely give up future first rounders to move up to draft one.

But basically those are the only choices. One is to continue to take a flyer on a late first round QB pick like they did with Kenny and see if that will work. The other is to bite the bullet and give up first round picks to move up in the draft. I would prefer they don’t do that. And so I must be mentally prepared to live in this purgatory like I did between Bradshaw and Ben - ugh 25 years.

(And oh by the way, as you all know, just drafting a QB high in round 1 doesn’t guarantee success - quite the opposite. Most highly drafted QBs are duds. So we just have to get lucky when we do so)

[Voice of Reason]

it’s easy to fire coaches and cut players but it’s difficult to find a franchise QB as it takes some luck.

Which is why when you draft a QB in the first round who COULD be a franchise QB, you give him every chance to succeed and you don't get rid of him just on the basis of one bad stretch of games or one bad season.

[Steeler-in-west]

Tomlin did have one of the greatest Qb’s on the face of the earth and couldnt do shit in the playoffs. I’ve just had enough of this guy. Time to stop making excuses for Tomlin and move the hell on.

[Steeler-in-west]

Which is why when you draft a QB in the first round who COULD be a franchise QB, you give him every chance to succeed and you don't get rid of him just on the basis of one bad stretch of games or one bad season.

and you dont pair him with the most inept coordinator in the league. The comedy of errors was just unbelievable. I still cant believe its the steelers that mismanaged that whole thing. And the quick fix (Russell Wilson) didnt even work.

[Rocky Mtn.]

Which is why when you draft a QB in the first round who COULD be a franchise QB, you give him every chance to succeed and you don't get rid of him just on the basis of one bad stretch of games or one bad season.

How many years should they have given Pickett in your mind? Beyond the three that is. IMHO a franchise grade QB should have gotten more out of a shitty offensive plan than Pickett did. Wasn't he last or near last in production? I believe a franchise QB can at least get a bad plan out of the basement. I wouldn't even revisit this conversation unless he starts somewhere else and proves to be franchise worthy.

[Dwinsgames]

THIS THREAD IS NOT A KENNY PICKETT THREAD

lets not turn it into one that is why half the damn board has left

[ALLD]

I don't know if you have been watching Hard Knocks on HBO, but on the next to last episode Jim Harbaugh was talking the entire team as they were preparing for their playoff game. He actually talked about Chuck Noll and gave his team some great Noll sayings. Harbaugh told his team that they don't like the Steelers....but they respect them....right?. I found it amazing that a Ravens coach was quoting Chuck Noll, and the team seemed mesmerized by how simple and profound Noll's messages were.

Harbaugh stated that Noll talked about fundamentals and if you don't do the basic things well, the rest doesn't matter. You can't play well if you can't do the simple football things well.

I thought it was awesome, and I wondered if Tomlin ever embraces Noll's coaching style and addresses the team like that to share the thoughts of another great Steelers coach?

Noll was a DC under Don Shula at Baltimore in the late 1960s. Noll along with Shula, Walsh, Gibbs, Brown and Lombardi are icons of the NFL.

[Rocky Mtn.]

THIS THREAD IS NOT A KENNY PICKETT THREAD

lets not turn it into one that is why half the damn board has left

Tell it to those that can't get off of Pickett. They are the ones that drag it around everywhere they go. I'm not going to go into a different thread and reference this one just to ask a question off a quote.

[El Kabong]

How many years should they have given Pickett in your mind? Beyond the three that is. IMHO a franchise grade QB should have gotten more out of a shitty offensive plan than Pickett did. Wasn't he last or near last in production? I believe a franchise QB can at least get a bad plan out of the basement. I wouldn't even revisit this conversation unless he starts somewhere else and proves to be franchise worthy.

Agreed. Pickett is not the guy. All of this pining away for him is ridiculous.

[ETL]

Last comment on Pickett, I swear.

PICKETT GAVE UP ON THE STEELERS. HE DID NOT WANT TO BE HERE.

I don’t care if he was the next coming of Pat Maholm, if he’s going to whine and have a pity party and quit, I don’t want him. I was a Pickett fan. I rejoiced when they drafted him and kept on re-watching the YouTube videos of people celebrating in Pittsburgh bars when his name was called in the draft. I wanted him here even when Russell Wilson was added because I thought he could grow with Wilson. But when he said he wanted out - I lost all respect for him.

and before you accuse the Steelers of messing it up - I DONT CARE. I don’t want pussies that act like victims on this team because they got their feelings hurt or something wasn’t fair in their eyes.

I respect the hell out of Justin Fields who said when he got replaced by Wilson, “I didn’t play well enough to keep the job”. I want that. And Pickett doesn’t have that.

[Steeler-in-west]

If only fields could read defenses. Im sure Mark Malone was a good guy too.

time to get a franchise Qb. Draft is the only way. I just prefer it be done under a new HC and staff.

[Voice of Reason]

How many years should they have given Pickett in your mind? Beyond the three that is.

They should definitely have given him a full year without Matt Canada, and one more year after that unless he totally shit the bed like Wilson did.

[Voice of Reason]

THIS THREAD IS NOT A KENNY PICKETT THREAD

lets not turn it into one that is why half the damn board has left

It was the Tomlin apologists who turned this thread into a discussion of QB's by claiming that Tomlin's failures were due to the QB's he had.

And half the damn board has left because certain people here regularly insult and ridicule anyone who disagrees with them and give other posters orders about what they can and cannot post.

[steelcityboyz]

Tomlin did have one of the greatest Qb’s on the face of the earth and couldnt do shit in the playoffs. I’ve just had enough of this guy. Time to stop making excuses for Tomlin and move the hell on.

You're wasting your time, too many Tomlin apologists on this board.I don't hate Tomlin i just don't think he's all that as a coach. How many more years do we have to cheer for being a below average team?

[Steeler-in-west]

You're wasting your time, too many Tomlin apologists on this board.I don't hate Tomlin i just don't think he's all that as a coach. How many more years do we have to cheer for being a below average team?

seems like i am. This is one of the big issues on this board (Not really the Kenny issue). Too much bias toward Tomlin. I dont have anything personal against him either. I thought he was great, for a while, but after 2017 he just really soured on me and i’ve been a skeptic of his ever since. His time has been over for a while now. And its a waste of time to stick with him. Noll, who i think is the greatest steelers coach easily, was done by the late 80’s. I thought it was time for the steelers to move on from him too, the game had passed him by. I think some people here are in denial about Tomlin’s present coaching/management abilities. Hes had plenty of talent to work with since his last superbowl appearance 15 years ago, with very little postseason results to show for it; Just one more playoff win than Nolls 80’s teams.

[Dwinsgames]

this is the "freshest post" the one above this one ... over 14 hours since anyone said BOO on this forum ....

some will say ohh its the off season that is why .... but if you look back it was the off season a few days ago too ...

the issue as I see it is

this place is committing suicide by its refusal to stay even close to on topic of a thread and every thread turns into one of two things or a combination of both 1) Tomlin sucks or 2 ) Kenny fricken Pickett..

most folks if they are inclined to talk on those topic will go to one of the threads intended for such ( this one is Tomlin oriented) yet people cant control themselves as speak about coaching and playoffs ...they have to bring up and talk about a guy who isnt even a steeler player any longer and hasnt been for a full season ... John Kuhn 2.0 but perhaps with LESS reasoning at least Kuhn was a visibly good piece based on his position and went on to start elsewhere as soon as he left but I digress ..........

it is getting way past old and likely why this place is a shadow of its former self

[oneforthetoe]

You're wasting your time, too many Tomlin apologists on this board.I don't hate Tomlin i just don't think he's all that as a coach. How many more years do we have to cheer for being a below average team?

I know this response doesn't sit well most fans after another one and done but a team that always has a winning record and loses in the first round is not below average. It is above average. Frustrating, yes? Absolutely! However, it is clearly still above average. Further, I am not suggesting this result should be the standard, and that fans do not have the justification to be frustrated with those results. Just not an accurate statement in any reasonable definition of what below or above average is.

At this point I can only hope that somehow "The Chief" can somehow work is magic in Irish Heaven (same as regular heaven with alcohol) and get us a franchise QB, or alternatively, we fall "ass backwards" into one.

[Born2Steel]

Being in the middle is the most frustrating place to be in all of pro sports. A few plays one way and you are competing or at least in the conversation of competing. A few plays go the other way and you are picking in the top 10. It's a very frustrating place for a team and its fans.

The post season drought is a thing. It becomes a pattern and it feels like a habit. But the reality is each playoff game must be taken as it's individual self, and not lumped all together as one big game.
Example: This year's playoff loss. We lost to a superior team with superior players at their place. Steelers fans seem to believe we should have won that game but the reality is everyone knew we were outmatched. Had the Steelers actually won, it would have been more of a letdown for Ravens fans than a positive for the Steelers. It would have been a fluke. I can't cry over that loss.

Each of our playoff losses has its own unique story as well. This season, last season, the season with Mason and Duck, were all seasons we really should not have even made the playoffs. One of those seasons we were out and done because the Raiders and Chargers were gonna tie, leaving us outside looking in. Then the Chargers decided to do something dumb and made the Raiders mad, and we got into the playoffs.

The game vs the Jags. We had VW, Sean Spence, Mike Mitchell, Sean Davis, Burns, and Golden defensively. Plus ben threw a pick 6. We were down big early but fought our way all the way back, and ended up losing by 3. Disappointing yes, but not a coaching failure. If not for the lack of talent on the defense we probably win. We had 550 yards of offense that day.

The Cleveland loss. Snapping the ball over Ben's head and then immediately throwing a pick 6 was not a coaching issue.

I am more inclined to discuss replacing Mike Tomlin because it's been 18 years and we simply just need a new voice in the room, than for any failures as HC. Tomlin has been a damn good head coach. Still is in my opinion.

[Mojouw]

I always hear that “new voice in the room” take in sports.

But for the current NFL, it has never made sense to me.

The only guys that have heard Tomlin fit more than 3-4 years are “star” players. Those guys that seem to be thriving and successful.

Rosters turnover so much that is anyone around for the “message to go stale”? Because if it can go stale in 3 years; that means most teams should be changing coaches every 3-5 years. Right?

Just an open question. Not a criticism or a statement one way or the other.

[Voice of Reason]

the issue as I see it is

this place is committing suicide by its refusal to stay even close to on topic of a thread and every thread turns into one of two things or a combination of both 1) Tomlin sucks or 2 ) Kenny fricken Pickett..

most folks if they are inclined to talk on those topic will go to one of the threads intended for such ( this one is Tomlin oriented) yet people cant control themselves as speak about coaching and playoffs ...they have to bring up and talk about a guy who isnt even a steeler player any longer and hasnt been for a full season ...

it is getting way past old and likely why this place is a shadow of its former self

I told you why this place is losing posters. And you're not the guy to give solutions. You're a big part of the problem.

You're also the biggest fucking hypocrite on the board. You say we're talking too much about Kenny Pickett. Yet you have an insult to Kenny Pickett as your signature, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT KENNY PICKETT WITH EVERY FUCKING POST THAT YOU MAKE !!! And the number of posts that I and other Kenny supporters make are DWARFED by the number of posts that you and the other Good Ol' Boys make that bash him. Yeah, there's a group of people on this board who are obsessed with Kenny. And one of the biggest ones is YOU.

[ETL]

Easy to fire Head Coaches. Ask the Browns and Cowboys. If that was the key to success those two teams should have amassed a ton of playoff wins and championship appearances.

[Dwinsgames]

I told you why this place is losing posters. And you're not the guy to give solutions. You're a big part of the problem.

You're also the biggest fucking hypocrite on the board. You say we're talking too much about Kenny Pickett. Yet you have an insult to Kenny Pickett as your signature, WHICH MEANS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT KENNY PICKETT WITH EVERY FUCKING POST THAT YOU MAKE !!! And the number of posts that I and other Kenny supporters make are DWARFED by the number of posts that you and the other Good Ol' Boys make that bash him. Yeah, there's a group of people on this board who are obsessed with Kenny. And one of the biggest ones is YOU.

you truly are a legend in you own mind ...


piss off old shrivel dick

[Born2Steel]

I always hear that “new voice in the room” take in sports.

But for the current NFL, it has never made sense to me.

The only guys that have heard Tomlin fit more than 3-4 years are “star” players. Those guys that seem to be thriving and successful.

Rosters turnover so much that is anyone around for the “message to go stale”? Because if it can go stale in 3 years; that means most teams should be changing coaches every 3-5 years. Right?

Just an open question. Not a criticism or a statement one way or the other.

I think there is validity in change for the sake of change. Not 100% obviously. I'm going to butcher a quote/point that was made, I believe, by Michael Crichton in the prologue of one of his books. He was talking about how we can be in a job/position for so long that we forget what that job actually is and start to think it is our right rather than our duty. He gave examples of career politicians as you would expect, but also CEOs of major charitable foundations. That eventually the focus of what brought you to that position will change and become corrupted over time. A complete overhaul of leadership in any enterprise is a needed thing every 20 years or so, in order to stay on the intended course.

Now, this was just a novelist offering his own personal blanket viewpoint on human nature and not intended for football discussion specifically. I get that.But, I would be much more inclined to join a discussion related to this when it comes to the Steelers leadership, than just a blanket, 'everybody sucks and we just need to burn it down' rant/discussion. Which seems to be what is the point of every thread on every fan forum. It's become herd mentality at this point.

Another quote/point I can butcher is in regards to students today not having to learn how to do simple math problems with pencil on paper. That this lack of fundamental problem solving has an actual effect on how the human brain learns to solve problems. When those pathways to problem solving are never activated and properly cultivated, the ability to problem solve at every level of daily life is effected. And as a result, we see this in areas as simple as discussing what we should do for dinner, without it becoming a debate/argument instead of being a very easy conversation. This one I think was Neil deGrasse-Tyson.

For the discussion on playoff records and the current Steelers playoff drought, I stick to my view that each individual game has to be measured and discussed on it's own, rather than X number of years = total failure.

[Mojouw]

I think there is validity in change for the sake of change. Not 100% obviously. I'm going to butcher a quote/point that was made, I believe, by Michael Crichton in the prologue of one of his books. He was talking about how we can be in a job/position for so long that we forget what that job actually is and start to think it is our right rather than our duty. He gave examples of career politicians as you would expect, but also CEOs of major charitable foundations. That eventually the focus of what brought you to that position will change and become corrupted over time. A complete overhaul of leadership in any enterprise is a needed thing every 20 years or so, in order to stay on the intended course.

Now, this was just a novelist offering his own personal blanket viewpoint on human nature and not intended for football discussion specifically. I get that.But, I would be much more inclined to join a discussion related to this when it comes to the Steelers leadership, than just a blanket, 'everybody sucks and we just need to burn it down' rant/discussion. Which seems to be what is the point of every thread on every fan forum. It's become herd mentality at this point.

Another quote/point I can butcher is in regards to students today not having to learn how to do simple math problems with pencil on paper. That this lack of fundamental problem solving has an actual effect on how the human brain learns to solve problems. When those pathways to problem solving are never activated and properly cultivated, the ability to problem solve at every level of daily life is effected. And as a result, we see this in areas as simple as discussing what we should do for dinner, without it becoming a debate/argument instead of being a very easy conversation. This one I think was Neil deGrasse-Tyson.

For the discussion on playoff records and the current Steelers playoff drought, I stick to my view that each individual game has to be measured and discussed on it's own, rather than X number of years = total failure.

I can get that.

Sounds more like burnout or whatever for an individual (in this case a head coach) than the players tuning out.

[Voice of Reason]

you truly are a legend in you own mind ...


piss off old shrivel dick

I see the bullies here don't like it when their target fights back.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

[Voice of Reason]

I think there is validity in change for the sake of change. Not 100% obviously. I'm going to butcher a quote/point that was made, I believe, by Michael Crichton in the prologue of one of his books. He was talking about how we can be in a job/position for so long that we forget what that job actually is and start to think it is our right rather than our duty. He gave examples of career politicians as you would expect, but also CEOs of major charitable foundations. That eventually the focus of what brought you to that position will change and become corrupted over time. A complete overhaul of leadership in any enterprise is a needed thing every 20 years or so, in order to stay on the intended course.

Interesting observation which is true in a lot of cases. I think with football coaches an additional factor is that new coaching innovations are made all the time, and that to remain successful long-time coaches have to adapt to these new innovations. They can't just say "Well, we were successful when we did it this way five or ten years ago, so that must be the right way to do it and we'll keep doing it that way even though it's not working any more." Coaches who keep being praised and told how great they are even when their results are declining are particularly susceptible to this mistake.

[Born2Steel]

Interesting observation which is true in a lot of cases. I think with football coaches an additional factor is that new coaching innovations are made all the time, and that to remain successful long-time coaches have to adapt to these new innovations. They can't just say "Well, we were successful when we did it this way five or ten years ago, so that must be the right way to do it and we'll keep doing it that way even though it's not working any more." Coaches who keep being praised and told how great they are even when their results are declining are particularly susceptible to this mistake.

While I agree with your words, coaches that don't evolve and adapt along the way don't continue to coach. Especially at the NFL level, if you are staying status quo you are getting left behind. This league is in constant flux because those that play it and those that coach it are just that good.

This is why you see the HC carousel and retreads. It's hard to win games in this league. Those that are able to do it are held in a higher regard. Speaking of our coach specifically, I believe if Mike Tomlin left to be the Saints HC(only vacancy left), the Saints would not only be a winning franchise next season, but also be in competition to win their division. Because that is exactly what I have seen him do with the Steelers year in and year out. Plus there is just too much evidence of players that he was able to get production from that were out of the league shortly after leaving this team. He's a fantastic coach.

I am not saying a different coach with a different philosophy and approach to schemes couldn't also win here.

I don't think a return to the disciplinarian days of Noll and Lombardi are the answer. I don't think that works in the era of free agency, and the ability for each player to build their brand (whatever that actually means) on multiple social media platforms.

I honestly believe that by the final year of Tomlin's current contract this franchise will be competing for another championship.

[El Kabong]

While I agree with your words, coaches that don't evolve and adapt along the way don't continue to coach. Especially at the NFL level, if you are staying status quo you are getting left behind. This league is in constant flux because those that play it and those that coach it are just that good.

This is why you see the HC carousel and retreads. It's hard to win games in this league. Those that are able to do it are held in a higher regard. Speaking of our coach specifically, I believe if Mike Tomlin left to be the Saints HC(only vacancy left), the Saints would not only be a winning franchise next season, but also be in competition to win their division. Because that is exactly what I have seen him do with the Steelers year in and year out. Plus there is just too much evidence of players that he was able to get production from that were out of the league shortly after leaving this team. He's a fantastic coach.

I am not saying a different coach with a different philosophy and approach to schemes couldn't also win here.

I don't think a return to the disciplinarian days of Noll and Lombardi are the answer. I don't think that works in the era of free agency, and the ability for each player to build their brand (whatever that actually means) on multiple social media platforms.

I honestly believe that by the final year of Tomlin's current contract this franchise will be competing for another championship.

I believe his current contract goes through 2027. You're saying by 2027 we'll be competing for championships?

[Voice of Reason]

While I agree with your words, coaches that don't evolve and adapt along the way don't continue to coach.

I know one that does.

- - - Updated - - -

I honestly believe that by the final year of Tomlin's current contract this franchise will be competing for another championship.

Check out the definition of insanity.