You didn't answer his question. He had Ben for 13 years and won one SB and lost another. But those two SB's came in his first few years coaching when he had a team mostly built by Cowher and management. So outside of Ben's last few years when he wasn't the same QB after the elbow injury why did Tomlin not win? I mean he had a franchise QB in Ben from 2010 through 2019 ...Originally Posted by ETL
Because winning a SB is hard as all get out? You need a dizzying amount of things to break your way and from 2010-19 they didn't? Steelers had unfortunate luck with injuries and the Pats existing during that time. How many AFC teams didn't win a SB in the 1970's because of the Steelers presence?
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
When the head coach continues to oversee his team getting owned in the playoffs every time, it's a problem. When your defense is giving up over 300 yards in the first half and falling behind by multiple touchdowns early in nearly every single playoff game they are a part of, and most of the team's salary cap is being spent on the defense.....the head coach needs to be questioned and held accountable.
The defense has pretty much collapsed in the playoffs with horrible game plans and execution for many years now.
Tomlin named Mitch Trubisky his starting quarterback two seasons ago. After watching him practice and play, he had Trubisky getting the most important reps in camp and preseason instead of preparing the young first-round QB to get those reps and prepare to start. He chose the third best quarterback on the team to start the season. Trubisky failed so badly that Pickett was named the starter four games into the season and was not fully prepared because his head coach actually couldn't tell who was playing quarterback at a higher level. He had his worst QB starting the season, but ended the season riding the guy he believed was the worst at the beginning of the season.
They installed Matt Canada's offense when Randy Fichtner was still OC and the year after they led the NFL in Red Zone efficiency under Fichtner. The offense went in the shitter and they fired Fichtner using Canada's offense. He named Matt Canada as his OC and kept a man that was incompetent at his job in place for years. Mike Tomlin watched film over and over again of every play of every game and didn't see that Matt Canada's offense didn't work. It's an offense that even made Big Ben look average. How the head coach didn't understand that the offensive system in place was garbage is a tough one to get over. He didn't even understand that what he was seeing couldn't work and why. Everybody with football backgrounds could tell you that Matt Canada's system was awful and he couldn't coach. It wasn't NFL worthy. It was "junior varsity", but the guy in charge is the only one that couldn't see it.
I'm sorry. I really like Mike Tomlin, but nothing I said above screams great coaching. He needs to be fairly evaluated, but honestly evaluated. Far too many people aren't willing to admit that there have been repeated failures with many aspects of the team. They Steelers have had two consecutive strong drafts. They moved on from a first-round quarterback to get a veteran guy and a more developmental younger QB with some upside and were told it was an upgrade.
They played Fields early when Wilson was injured, and they won games. Tomlin decided that Wilson was the guy that would make the offense more explosive. He was posing like a peacock when the Steelers' offense made more big plays and scored more points. Once defenses made the adjustments to take away what Wilson was doing with the deep ball, the peacock had no answers or adjustments....just the player that he put in that position going on a 5-game stretch that was worse than any when Canada and Pickett were here.
Where is the improvement? Where is the growth? Why are the playoff performances consistently so bad?
If that doesn't tell people that there may be a serious issue and that there is a real possibility that the head coach can't properly evaluate quarterback talent, that he struggles to embrace modern football concepts, that he isn't reaching the players the same way he once did, that when game planning is most important in playoff situations...the game plan is failing, and he may not have the team going in the right direction, then I don't really know what to say.
In my opinion, he has lost the right to be bulletproof. All options should be considered by the organization.
All of the above posted things are not incorrect or problematic in and of themselves.
But they all rest on the assumption that the 2019-24 Steelers COULD have had a gameplan or system(s)) that would have FIXED their massive talent deficiencies. And, for me, that is a false assumption.
I, and again just me, believe that most Steelers fans WANT the issue to be coaching and/or "system" because then the owners can wave their magic hiring wand and fix everything. The Steelers will be highly competitive again and everyone can start dreaming of cool SB parties.
But, that just isn't true. At all. The Steelers have refused to publicly admit that they have needed a significant rebuild for a long time. That has not been helpful. What has been helpful is that they have started doing it anyways. Rebuilding multiple position groups almost completely in the last 2 years. And really, for me, that is what it is. Colbert tried to keep on keeping on and it was a bad idea. Khan (and Weidel (sp??)) has come in and really started an actual reconstruction/rebuilding of the overall roster.
But back to the topic at hand....this is a team that just hasn't been talented enough at key spots to not get their ass-kicked by good teams. They haven't even had league average QB play in what 4 years? More? I think this year was the first in how many that they had some actual playmaking from the inside linebacker position. We could go on and on.
Many Steelers fans need to face the harsh reality that even if all the "coaching" issues were different/better this is an extremely flawed and vulnerable team.
When was the last time someone not considered a franchise QB won a Super Bowl? I would throw Nick Foles and the Eagles in there, and then maybe the last time before that was Trent Dilfer with the Ravens.
based upon all the above .. it seems to me you are saying without a franchise QB ( a team I think is vastly over used as there are about 5 of them on planet earth IMO at any given time) but that is beside the point I guess ...
my question is if you must have one to win the SB ....
were these guys Franchise QBS ???
Nick Foles (won in 2017)
Joe Flacco (won in 2012)
Brad Johnson (won in 2002)
Trent Dilfer (won in 2000)
Mark Rypien (won in 1991)
Jeff Hostetler (won in 1990)
Doug Williams (won in 1987)
Phil Simms (won in 1986 and probably the best QB on this list but he wasnt elite by any means)
Jim McMahon (won in 1985)
Jim Plunkett (won in 1983 and in 1980)
Joe Theismann (won in 1982)
some "good QB" here but nothing elite IMO yet that is quite a few Championships ...Tomlin has had a HoF QB every year but 3 of his 18 year tenure , he also had a HoF numbers WR x2 during that span and the best all around RB in the league for a few years in Bell and we just dont have much in terms of hardware to show for it ... as I posted yesterday a coach that gets a lot of flack here for being LESS of a coach McCarthy not only beat Tomlin in the SB but also has a better playoff winning percentage and amount of playoff wins in the same amount of years tenured in the league ..... if he can be fired why not tomlin ???
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles didn't value him either , now he is a Stain at the Mistake by the Lake 3 teams in 4 years more of a shooting star than a superstar
If I remember correctly, why Foles was able to defeat the Patriots is instructive to this discussion as well. The Pats were a well coached and highly disciplined team. Led by a franchise QB. BUT...their defense that year was just out of playmakers/bodies. And Foles and the Eagles were able to expose that.
So it is a highwire act that requires balancing coaching and talent. But you can't escape the talent part.
- - - Updated - - -
- - - Updated - - -
Why not compare the 1940's? Pulling comps from 4 decades ago is not all that useful.
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
There may be people that want Mike Tomlin to be the issue. I am not one of them. I have always supported him and thought he was a very good coach. I like him and respect him. I want him to do well. There are just some things that have been happening that are hard to explain away.
I don't wish for Tomlin to be fired. I just think that enough has occurred and he has been in one place for such a long time that a change may be necessary in the best interests of the team and Mike Tomlin.
I would love to see Mike Tomlin to come back next season, find a quarterback that is a long-term answer, and have the team replace everything that is broken and they need to be great again. I just don't think they are able to do that if the leader if flawed. I think it may be that the change needed can only happen if Mike Tomlin isn't there. A new philosophy may need to be in place that would not fall in line with what Tomlin wants to do or how he wants to play football.
I just want the team to play well.
If they continue with Mike Tomlin, I will root for the team and Coach Tomlin like hell.
If they were to fire him, I will continue to root like hell for whoever sits in the same chair and will begin the evaluation of that coach that will be judged over a period of time.
we do not always agree or even get along but I will say that IMO that this is about as accurate and fair assessment that one will find on the internet ....
doing the same things over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity and that appears to be what is happening in Pittsburgh
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles didn't value him either , now he is a Stain at the Mistake by the Lake 3 teams in 4 years more of a shooting star than a superstar
Again...I do not totally disagree, nor was I attempting to aim my post specifically at you and your thinking.
But I do get tired of the "Fire Tomlin" discussion every time the team loses anything aside from socks. I think that it is a big component of potential outcomes/solutions but it is not going to change the results without other solutions as well.
For instance, I have been a dedicated fan of this team since 1988 or so. And have been obsessively following the team since I got high speed internet in the late 1990s. And in all that time, the Steelers, as an organization, have NEVER embraced a true tear down and rebuild. That does NOT come from Tomlin. That comes from ownership. I truly believe that ownership mandates the team win the maximum amount of games each season and Tomlin works with the GM to make that happen. And that creates some of the decisions and issues that we, as fanatics, wrangle over in places like this.
For instance, what if ownership is behind the lack of firings? What if that comes from up top? How does that change perception(s) of Tomlin?
At the end of the Colbert era, the Steelers chose skill positions and other draft priorities over rebuilding the lines. Now, under Khan, they are rebuilding the trenches. That, to me, indicates that Tomlin is far from the only voice deciding those organizational directions. But, he is the only one getting blamed for the results of those decisions. Drafting Harris, PF, and Edmunds were likely all the "wrong" choices. Not just in hindsight but because the Steelers were not one contributor away from winning much of anything. But, the organization, refused to acknowledge a rebuild was necessary. What if those three picks were foundational O and D line picks instead? What do things look like in 2024?
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
I don't take great pleasure in saying it. I wish we had the coach I knew was the man to lead them to the promised land. It just doesn't appear that we know that he is at this point.
We should always be able to talk and discuss things here. We aren't children that have to ban each other for life. I am always open to talking to anyone here. Especially people I have known and liked for so long. I think so many people here let other stuff on other subjects and with other people get themselves so worked up that they carry that over into conversations that it turns things much more negative than they were ever intended to be.
considering a few things here ...
1) the statement was made about the SB
2) any assessments should be made based on the SB era (in which I did)
3) 1940's was not the SB era but carry on
what might you suggest the last 3 years , come on man its 1 flipping game a year what kind of sample size can you get based on that without including decades of data
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles didn't value him either , now he is a Stain at the Mistake by the Lake 3 teams in 4 years more of a shooting star than a superstar
I believe we are trying to assess the impact of having an elite QB. To me, there is no point in comparing eras that did NOT require having elite QB play to win playoff games, let alone SB's. In the 1980's and 1990's you could still just have your QB turn around and hand it off 35 times a game and win lots and lots of things, including SBs.
I would argue that the last 25 years is not even one consistent "type" of NFL era. BUT...even allow that it is....you got 4 guys. And you could take two of them off (Flacco and Johnson) because they did, in fact, play like "franchise QBs" when their team won. So you got 2 guys in 25 years (Foles and Dilfer). And one of those (Dilfer) required one of the greatest defensive years in all of NFL history.
I just do not believe that you are making the point you think you are making. The game may continue to change. Rules and defensive adjustments may eventually diminish or even eliminate the massive advantage that offenses have right now. Hopefully that will result in becoming possible to win a championship with a rushing attack and incredible defense again. But, right now, it just simply is not.
Array title="ETL has a reputation beyond repute">
My point is simple. Tomlin is a good coach. He’s better than average and I do not believe that changing coaches from Tomlin will get us any closer to winning a SB. Because I don’t think he’s the problem.
winning SB is really hard. I think the Steelers underperformed when they had Ben Bell and Brown and one of the better OL in the league. But I still believe Tomlin is a good coach and an asset.
when belichick didn’t win SBs with Brady does that make him an underperforming coach? If Andy Reid doesn’t win a SB this year with Maholms does that make Reid a failure? Should they fired him?
it’s just hard to win a SB even with a franchise QB and just changing coaches doesn’t necessarily make you any step closer especially when the talent in QB is very lacking
- - - Updated - - -
based upon all the above .. it seems to me you are saying without a franchise QB ( a team I think is vastly over used as there are about 5 of them on planet earth IMO at any given time) but that is beside the point I guess ...
my question is if you must have one to win the SB ....
were these guys Franchise QBS ???
Nick Foles (won in 2017)
Joe Flacco (won in 2012)
Brad Johnson (won in 2002)
Trent Dilfer (won in 2000)
Mark Rypien (won in 1991)
Jeff Hostetler (won in 1990)
Doug Williams (won in 1987)
Phil Simms (won in 1986 and probably the best QB on this list but he wasnt elite by any means)
Jim McMahon (won in 1985)
Jim Plunkett (won in 1983 and in 1980)
Joe Theismann (won in 1982)
some "good QB" here but nothing elite IMO yet that is quite a few Championships ...Tomlin has had a HoF QB every year but 3 of his 18 year tenure , he also had a HoF numbers WR x2 during that span and the best all around RB in the league for a few years in Bell and we just dont have much in terms of hardware to show for it ... as I posted yesterday a coach that gets a lot of flack here for being LESS of a coach McCarthy not only beat Tomlin in the SB but also has a better playoff winning percentage and amount of playoff wins in the same amount of years tenured in the league ..... if he can be fired why not tomlin ???
Game has changed a lot. It’s a total QB driven league now - much more than before. When the Steelers win SB 9 - the offenses on either team were meaningless
I never mentioned any player prior to SB 15 so not sure why SB 9 somehow came into the equation...
apparently McCarthy is a failure but Tomlin is a winner ....
hmmm
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles didn't value him either , now he is a Stain at the Mistake by the Lake 3 teams in 4 years more of a shooting star than a superstar
Array title="ETL has a reputation beyond repute">
just saying it’s was a different game back then. Didn’t know you were counting.I never mentioned any player prior to SB 15 so not sure why SB 9 somehow came into the equation...
apparently McCarthy is a failure but Tomlin is a winner ....
hmmm
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
I didn't take it as if you were talking to me specifically. I think I've made myself pretty clear on Tomlin over the years.
I get the points about some responsibility for the coaching hires not being a completely known. I'm sure there are things that have been mistakes that are not on Mike Tomlin. This is kind of like the discussion we were having about scheme in another thread. We don't know all the conversations that happen in that building. Almost nothing is ever 100% one person's fault in an operation that large.
Maybe Mr. Rooney doesn't believe in firing a coach and having to pay him. Maybe there is some truth to that. I don't know for sure, but somebody made the call on Canada being hired, and on Canada being fired. Nobody in the building is supposed to know more about how an assistant coach is performing or how affective his scheme is than a head coach of an NFL team. They are supposed to understand all the X's and O's and identify what is working, what isn't, and why.
I also don't know exactly how much input Mike Tomlin has on his assistants, but I can tell you that most coaches have a huge say in who is on their coaching staff. Especially a coach that has accumulated power and trust over many years in one spot. Mike Tomlin is the face of the Steelers organization, and he has had considerable trust and power to run the team and control the roster as he sees fit.
I agree with you about the rebuilds to a point as well. I always thought that the team should have torn it all down and started a complete rebuild after 2011 or so. They did turn over almost the entire roster, but they did it over like 3-4 years. Don't get me wrong, it worked out pretty well with Ben there and they were always a relevant team. They could never simply get over the hump in the era of the Patriots.
I'm assuming you are more critical of how they handled things when Ben retired, and that the team should have been blown up and retooled with a complete rebuild. I could completely understand that.
The thing we don't know is if Mike Tomlin was the one banging the table to try to win now. Let's face it....he coaches that way with the way he almost always keeps the less talented veteran player on the roster than going with the young player and taking a chance on development. We have talked about this at length how Tomlin's approach is to keep his pet players and wiley vets over youth drives us crazy. We aren't 100% sure that Tomlin makes every single call on everything, but we all know that Mike Tomlin runs that roster and all the guys that are on it. He always plays to win it all now and screw having 4-5 young players to fill out the roster with developmental youth. You know this. It is simply how he likes to do things. I'm pretty sure some of that is why he went with Mitch Trubisky over Pickett. That's probably why he likes Wilson over Fields. Tomlin loves the grizzled vets over youth nearly every time there is a choice.
You can't complain about Tomlin getting all the blame, when he gets all the glory from every mouthpiece in the press talking about his genius for years and years now. You can't have it both ways. Tomlin gets credit for the non-losing seasons and coaching up his team every single year. If you listen to anyone other than idiots like Mark Madden and a couple other trolls, you know that the media falls all over themselves for Tomlin and always have. He's not some scapegoat. He has been the crown jewel of one of the premier organizations in the NFL for 18 seasons. He is known to be and reported to be the guy running things in Pittsburgh, and he has a ton of power. I think the opinion that he is somehow persecuted is just reaching a bit.
There was a time when people started that crap calling for his head when they didn't go to a Super Bowl for 2 seasons after they went to the Super Bowl in 2010. That was just stupid, and maybe there is some horrible element of other reasoning why some people wanted him gone, because those were unreasonable demands. But the team hasn't been to a Super Bowl in 14 seasons, and they seemingly continue to get further and further away from that happening over the last 7 seasons while the style of play hasn't kept up with the more imaginative and cutting-edge schemes. I say it all the time. Adapt or die. I think that has been Mike Tomlin's greatest weakness. He refuses to embrace new ideas, and he has been getting his butt handed to him in situations where game planning is most critical....the playoffs.
The playoffs is when teams game plan for every single aspect of their opponent. That's when you are playing very talented teams, but the coaching is tested the greatest because of the tailoring of the attack of the opponent based on everything a coaching staff knows and comes up with a plan just for that game. He has been failing miserably in that spot repeatedly. There is no getting around it. His teams are getting boat raced right out of the gate in playoff games. They have had bad game plans and bad execution. There is no GM or owner putting together that game plan. That is the coaching staff and we all know who has final say on what transpires on the field. It's Mike Tomlin.
Mike Tomlin is a HOF coach. He had a GM that will probably go into the HOF in Colbert. Saying Tomlin is getting blamed for everything is sort of pointing at the Steelers organization and saying that poor Mike Tomlin was victimized by the best organization in the NFL. That argument just doesn't hold water anymore. No head coach has been supported more than Mike Tomlin has by the Steelers. They have had his back and given him everything they could have, and they have not thrown him under the bus or worked against him in any way. I think the argument that Mike Tomlin isn't getting a fair shake is getting close to Mason Rudolph not getting a fair shot talk. He is the longest tenured head coach in the NFL working for a legendary organization that has had his back in every single instance for close to two decades.
Mike Tomlin isn't a victim of anything. Any other coach on any other team would have been fired a while ago. Deep down you have to know that is true.
I did not intend to argue the poor Tomlin was persecuted. Of course he isn't.
Nor am I arguing that there isn't coaching concerns itsclesr that they had a strategy for stopping shotgun RPO from the Ravebs that they failed to adequately teach to their players because they bungled it badly several times. That's on the coaches.
But I think the post Ben style of play and outdated approaches does come from on high. The Sreelers have never undertaken a multi-year reset in the 4 decades I've paid attention. I think that Tomlin and Khan are tasked with figure out how to try and win the most games. And with the talent deficit on offense, playing stone age ball is the answer. When Tomlin and company had talent; they didn't play conservative.
I could type a ton more. But it is just more of the same. Fire Tomlin. Don't fire Tomlin. I don't really care. I don't.
I do think that much of what people feel will change with a coaching change will not. For instance, how much of the Lions success is coaching and how much is absolutely nailing three drafts in a row where they had high picks and lots of them? Without drafting all those young talented players how good is that team?
You and I have talked around this before. And it might be as simple as Tomlin and staff are just not the guys to oversee a rebuild. Not wired that way.
Or it may be possible that the organization stubbornly refuses to do what is necessary to rebuild.
Swap Tomlin out for Sean McVay. Who's playing QB? Who's catching passes? What is the path to the outcome looking much different on that side of the ball?
The Steelers are stuck until they either catch lightening in a bottle with some reclamation QB or just out scout and out manuever the other teams in the draft for a QB.
Until that happens you can have whoever you want coaching whatever style you want and there's a ceiling on it. And the ceiling is about 10 wins and a first round playoff exit.
Yes, winning a Super Bowl is hard. But winning one occasionally is a job requirement for an NFL head coach. If an NFL head coach proves over a long period of time that winning a Super Bowl is too hard for him, then the team should try someone else.
Being a brain surgeon is hard too. But if you have a guy doing it whose patients regularly die on the operating table, then that guy shouldn't be a brain surgeon any more.
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
I think we all understand that we don't know if there are certain directives from up above that demand a certain style of play. But where were those directives when Big Ben was throwing for 5000 yards? I believe that the ownership wants a physical team that can run the ball. Running the ball doesn't make a team conservative or preclude a team from effectively throwing the football. Do the Lions look conservative when you watch them play? They bludgeon people with the run game and disembowel them with the passing game. You can do both. There is nothing stopping any coach from developing a strong running game and still being able to throw the ball. The best teams in the NFL right now have strong running games.
The Eagles don't have an elite QB. Jalen Hurts isn't a great quarterback. Many seem to think he is for some reason, but he is not a great thrower of the football.
Sean McVay is an offensive wizard. That's what he is known for. I just heard this morning that in 12 playoff games, McVay's team has never given up a 100 yard rusher in the playoffs. I think that streak will probably be broken by the Eagles this week, but that has been a fact to this point. What that tells you is that he and his staff are able to take the information about his opponents scheme and tendencies, and along with his coaching staff formulate a plan to take away what they do best. That stuff doesn't happen by accident. The Rams have not been the most physical defense in football for a decade, yet they are able to formulate game plans that consistently work in playoff football.
McVay didn't think his quarterback was good enough. He got another one. In fact, the Rams got the guy that McVay wanted. McVay wanted Stafford, and the team did whatever they had to do to get him his guy. Just being able to identify who "the guy" is that works with your system is so important. McVay went to ownership, banged the table for Stafford, and they made it happen. It was a bold move, but it was a success.
I'm asking you to be honest here. Based on what we have seen since Ben retired, the offenses that have been in place, and the end result on the field and decisions made as to who should be playing QB....Do you really think that Tomlin would recognize a QB that would be a great fit in the scheme he wants to play? I don't believe he knows what he's looking at with QBs, and he struggles to identify and cultivate great offensive football.
Would the Steelers give up a boatload of first-round picks to get the quarterback of his dreams? I don't know. I think they would if the collective brain trust identified a player they thought could be a star, but I don't think Tomlin has shown he has that kind of unique understanding of that position. McVay has that skillset. Tomlin hasn't come close to showing that he has it.
I thought Tomlin got the perfect guy for what he wants to do. Justin Fields. Then he thought the offense wasn't explosive enough, and he once again went to the aging veteran that is not the player he once was instead of riding the younger guy with more tools and let him develop. This is who Mike Tomlin is. It all went sideways. That was all Mike Tomlin's decision, yet you and I talked about the limitations of Russell Wilson before he even came to the Steelers. WE want to see a young QB develop, but Mike Tomlin either doesn't want to, or isn't capable of it.
I think Tomlin gets in his own way. Maybe he can figure it out, but right now it doesn't look like he can see a path. I think Tomlin needs to take a step back and not try to control every aspect of the team and coaching staff. With the help of the organization, find great young offensive and defensive minds and let them show him that their way can work. Just coach the men and run the team without his fingerprint being on everything. Just do what he does best and be a leader of men.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
I'm just gonna download the audio book version of this thread.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Merry Christmas
Doug Williams
Jeff Hostetler
Mark Rypien
Brad Johnson
Hater = Realist
NOT HAVING A PLAYOFF win IN HOW MANY years ???? And 5 CONSECUTIVE BEAT DOWNS is enogh for me !!
Array title="Devilsdancefloor has a reputation beyond repute">
im hoping Dan Rooney JR is a football guy and takes the reigns over soon
For those i love i will sacrifice.
Si ventus non est, remiga
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Why use 18 words to barely say anything when I can vomit 1764 words to get everything off my chest?
As an incredibly succinct and brief poster, settle down you wordy SOB!Why use 18 words to barely say anything when I can vomit 1764 words to get everything off my chest?
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
I'm typically checking in on the conversations throughout my work day. There are only a few minutes between patients usually and on my phone some posts are a BIG scroll down. Which will end with me having to come back to it later. This one just happens to have a few longer posts in a row. And since most of my 'book reading' is done through audiobook already.......
On the McVay banging the table for Stafford point, it brings us back to needing a franchise QB. Yes, Goff was able to get the Rams to a SB, but that yielded 3pts in the big game. He needed that HoF franchise guy to get over the top. I don't know if it was just Aaron Donald but it seems to me the Rams had a pretty stout defense that season to go with Stafford. I really do think that is the formula. Having the QB that elevates the offense to a championship caliber, and a defense that borders on elite.
To the point of offenses in different eras, I'm of the belief football is football. The players keep getting bigger, faster, stronger, and even more obviously on defense. The 49ers won 4 SB in a decade with a finesse offense where the Steelers had won their 4 with a more physical offense. I think we all agree on the point it takes the QB to captain the offense whatever the scheme. Until the Steelers find the next franchise QB, where we are and have been for the last 5-7 years is the soft ceiling. It takes a dominant defense. It takes being able to win in the trenches. It takes strong leadership from the HC. But it take a franchise QB to tie it all together.
I have to agree with this. Sure there have been outlier QBs that have won SBs, but that is more the exception rather than the rule. How many of them won multiple SBs. You count up all multiple win Super Bowls that Franchise QBs have won, and it doesn’t leave much for the rest. Bradshaw (4), Staubach (2), Montana (3) Young (3) Aikman (3) E Manning (2) P Manning (2 if you count two different teams), Ben (2) Brady (7 if you count with two different teams), Mahomes (3). And Bart Starr won 5 championships before the Super Bowl era and two SBs. I’m sure I’m forgetting a couple but I think I’ve made a point. So yes I feel like a franchise QB is important.
I'm typically checking in on the conversations throughout my work day. There are only a few minutes between patients usually and on my phone some posts are a BIG scroll down. Which will end with me having to come back to it later. This one just happens to have a few longer posts in a row. And since most of my 'book reading' is done through audiobook already.......
On the McVay banging the table for Stafford point, it brings us back to needing a franchise QB. Yes, Goff was able to get the Rams to a SB, but that yielded 3pts in the big game. He needed that HoF franchise guy to get over the top. I don't know if it was just Aaron Donald but it seems to me the Rams had a pretty stout defense that season to go with Stafford. I really do think that is the formula. Having the QB that elevates the offense to a championship caliber, and a defense that borders on elite.
To the point of offenses in different eras, I'm of the belief football is football. The players keep getting bigger, faster, stronger, and even more obviously on defense. The 49ers won 4 SB in a decade with a finesse offense where the Steelers had won their 4 with a more physical offense. I think we all agree on the point it takes the QB to captain the offense whatever the scheme. Until the Steelers find the next franchise QB, where we are and have been for the last 5-7 years is the soft ceiling. It takes a dominant defense. It takes being able to win in the trenches. It takes strong leadership from the HC. But it take a franchise QB to tie it all together.
Maybe I'm not understanding your post, but I seem to remember Montana winning 4 super bowls and Young only 1.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
