Congratulations Coach Mike Tomlin on 17 years of never having a losing season!

[Craic]

It's quite embarrassing that there are people that cannot see that as being mediocre.

Mediocre? I think you and Merrian-Webster need to spend some time together.

Mediocre: Of medium or low quality.

NFL Record for non-losing seasons:
1. Dallas Cowboys, 1965-1985
2. Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004-2023
3. New England Patricheats, 2001-2019

Second in the NFL.

Beyond that, every season with Tomlin as head coach, we have already clenched, or we are playing for a playoff spot in the very last game of the season.

Can we be better? Sure. Do I want to see better? Yes. But it's either emotionally driven narrow vision or a willingly ignorant stand that claims a team holding the second longest non-losing season streak and is in the playoff hunt every year in the last game should be labeled mediocre. Is this team mediocre compared to the 2000s team? Perhaps, but only after the 2004 season and don't count the 2006 season, because 1998-2003 and the 2006 seasons were even more mediocre by the standards you're setting.

[lipps83]

It's not about "Haters" at all, It's about the Steelers not making the playoffs. And to me a 9-8 season and help needed from other teams to even make the playoffs, is nothing to brag or be proud of at all.

When a team moves on from a declining HOF veteran to a new franchise QB, there are going to be some hiccups.

Not every team has a Steve Young backing up a Joe Montana.

Things could be a whole lot worse. Not many teams are able to maintain above .500 season when shit like this happens.

Sorry that it is so awful to be an above .500 team while this transition is taking place.

[Rocky Mtn.]

When a team moves on from a declining HOF veteran to a new franchise QB, there are going to be some hiccups.

Not every team has a Steve Young backing up a Joe Montana.

Things could be a whole lot worse. Not many teams are able to maintain above .500 season when shit like this happens.

Sorry that it is so awful to be an above .500 team while this transition is taking place.

I think so many Ben /team underachieving playoff wise factors into the equation for many.

[Steeler-in-west]

People are mixing the Ben era with this post Ben era. Not knocking Tomlin on this record except maybe blaming him for sticking with MT too long and costing us a couple wins. No one is expecting anything more than this. The never had a losing season mantra which gets brought up by Tomlin apologists is kind of a joke considering Tomlin had a HOF QB at his peak from 11 to 18 with a loaded offense and generally top 10 defense. So what are we doing? Trying to justify keeping Tomlin around for another 10 years? Trying to elevate him to top 3 coaches of all time? Tomlin was good coach overall, he did his best work early on but he started slacking off during Ben’s peak years with his reputation established. He’s doing ok now, like I said we could’ve been in better shape if not for mikes extended Trubisky experiment. He’s 2b along with Cowher 2a as far as Steeler coaches go

[Voice of Reason]

Firing Canada was a small step forward. Now if they keep Sullivan as the play caller…then you’ve not really taken the necessary step.

Under Sullivan the offense has looked great in every game not played in by a QB named Trubisky. I didn't really know Sullivan before he took over, but so far the results have been terrific.

[Voice of Reason]

Mediocre? I think you and Merrian-Webster need to spend some time together.

Mediocre: Of medium or low quality.

NFL Record for non-losing seasons:
1. Dallas Cowboys, 1965-1985
2. Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004-2023
3. New England Patricheats, 2001-2019

Second in the NFL.

Beyond that, every season with Tomlin as head coach, we have already clenched, or we are playing for a playoff spot in the very last game of the season.

Can we be better? Sure. Do I want to see better? Yes. But it's either emotionally driven narrow vision or a willingly ignorant stand that claims a team holding the second longest non-losing season streak and is in the playoff hunt every year in the last game should be labeled mediocre. Is this team mediocre compared to the 2000s team? Perhaps, but only after the 2004 season and don't count the 2006 season, because 1998-2003 and the 2006 seasons were even more mediocre by the standards you're setting.

OK, I saw your statistics. Now look at the Steelers record for playoff appearances, playoff wins, and Super Bowl appearances over the past TEN YEARS and tell me why that's not mediocre.

[Mojouw]

OK, I saw your statistics. Now look at the Steelers record for playoff appearances, playoff wins, and Super Bowl appearances over the past TEN YEARS and tell me why that's not mediocre.

Look at other teams over 10 year spans. What do they look like?

Got to use reality and not groundless benchmarks.

There is no team that matches the expectations set out here by Steelers fans.

If zero franchises are meeting your expectations, then it may mean your expectations are not realistic.

Sent from my SM-T220 using Tapatalk

[Voice of Reason]

Look at other teams over 10 year spans. What do they look like?

Got to use reality and not groundless benchmarks.

There is no team that matches the expectations set out here by Steelers fans.

If zero franchises are meeting your expectations, then it may mean your expectations are not realistic.

Sent from my SM-T220 using Tapatalk

Zero franchises meeting my expectations? Lets look at some of the teams who have more playoff appearances, playoff wins, and Super Bowl appearances than the Steelers over the last ten years. (Giving each team credit for each playoff appearance, playoff win, and Super Bowl appearance)

Kansas City, New England, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Denver, Seattle

And these are just off the top of my head. There may be a few more.

[Mojouw]

Zero franchises meeting my expectations? Lets look at some of the teams who have more playoff appearances, playoff wins, and Super Bowl appearances than the Steelers over the last ten years. (Giving each team credit for each playoff appearance, playoff win, and Super Bowl appearance)

Kansas City, New England, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Tampa Bay, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Denver, Seattle

And these are just off the top of my head. There may be a few more.

Oh. So the franchises loaded with premium talent from drafting high and helmed by elite QBs?

Compare that to the twilight of Ben’s career and a rebuild. Seems legit.

Look at New England post Brady. Or KC before Mahomes.

[fansince'76]

Oh. So the franchises loaded with premium talent from drafting high and helmed by elite QBs?

Compare that to the twilight of Ben’s career and a rebuild. Seems legit.

Look at New England post Brady. Or KC before Mahomes.

The Broncos are a REALLY bad example as well. Six losing seasons in a row at this point (and it will be 7 if they lose next weekend), 4 HC changes and zero playoff appearances since 2015. Not to mention a cap-busting contract for a QB who has clearly been on the decline for at least 3 years now.

[Voice of Reason]

Oh. So the franchises loaded with premium talent from drafting high and helmed by elite QBs?

Compare that to the twilight of Ben’s career and a rebuild. Seems legit.

Look at New England post Brady. Or KC before Mahomes.

There are two kinds of people in this world. There are people who produce results and get the job done, and there are people who don't, but have very good excuses why they didn't.

- - - Updated - - -

The Broncos are a REALLY bad example as well. Six losing seasons in a row at this point (and it will be 7 if they lose next weekend), 4 HC changes and zero playoff appearances since 2015. Not to mention a cap-busting contract for a QB who has clearly been on the decline for at least 3 years now.

And even with all that, they still did better than Tomlin in the playoffs over the last ten years.

[lipps83]

And even with all that, they still did better than Tomlin in the playoffs over the last ten years.

That probably had more to do with Peyton Manning being on the team than their head coach, which more proves Mojouw's point than your own. They were barely a .500 team before Manning arrived, and then again after he retired.

Manning was the reason for the team's success, not John Fox (lost SB) or Gary Kubiak (won SB).

What's your next excuse?

[Mojouw]

Mike Tomlin wins NFL games with Duck Hodges, Mason Rudolph, and Kenny Pickett playing under one of the worst offensive coordinators in recent NFL history.

I fully acknowledge that Tomlin is part of the series of decisions/problems that created that dumpster fire....BUT...focusing on the actual games....I am struggling to think of a HC that was yoked to that boat anchor of an offense and pulled good seasons together.

Past few years of the Jets is decent comp. Saleh is a defensive coach with a terrible offense and a decent to good defense. Jets have not been winning. Commanders under Rivera is sort of similar. Vikings under Childress....maybe?

Every time, someone says "Tomlin didn't win enough" it comes down to the fact that the "enough" is some intangible vague concept that is not grounded in NFL realities and precedents.

Taking a quick look at salary cap & free agency era QBs who are HOF and tenure with a single team (left out guys like Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, and Kelly as just before this group of QBs that were more contemporary to Ben's career):
Favre 16 years 2 SB appearances
P Manning 13 years with Indy 2 SB appearances
E Manning 16 years with NYG 2 SB appearances
K Warner 6 years with STL and 2 SB appearances
P. Rivers 13 years with SD and 0 SB appearances
D. Brees 15 years with NO and 1 SB appearance
T. Brady 20 years NE and 9 SB appearances
P. Mahomes 7 years with KC and 3 SB appearances

Ben had 18 years and 3 SB appearances. Among his contemporaries at QB, there are two that definitely better that (Brady and Mahomes) and one that arguably does (Warner).

And you can argue that the discussion is about Tomlin; not Ben. And that one of those was with a different coach. All true and all valid. But this was my quick and dirty way to take a scan through the recent history of the NFL and start establishing some benchmarks. And I further advance that there isn't any coach (except K. Shanahan or Miami Dude depending on your opinions on Purdy and Tua) winning squat without a pretty darn good QB.

The next step would be to look at gaps between SB appearances and the next playoff appearances. As team's cycle up for a SB caliber roster, and down as guys age out, get expensive, etc.

[lipps83]

Every time, someone says "Tomlin didn't win enough" it comes down to the fact that the "enough" is some intangible vague concept that is not grounded in NFL realities and precedents.

I think some people are going to have a hard time grasping what that sentence even means, let alone accepting it for the truth that it represents. It makes them accountable for their own expectations, which is something most people (not just in sports) have a hard time with.

They just want to 'win', baby, so it skews their perspective.

[Mojouw]

I think some people are going to have a hard time grasping what that sentence even means, let alone accepting it for the truth that it represents. It makes them accountable for their own expectations, which is something most people (not just in sports) have a hard time with.

They just want to 'win', baby, so it skews their perspective.

Yeah. I've just never gotten the "should" win thing. It wouldn't be sports and we wouldn't call it gambling if we knew who was going to win.

Maybe because I grew up watching sports in eras largely without dynasties? I think many of the Steelers fans that are coming at Tomlin for "enough" seem to have come up with teams like the 70's Steelers and 80's Niners just dominating. I mean I watched some of that as well....but it seems to now be the exception rather than the rule.

I remember the Bonds-Bonilla-Van Slyke Pirates helmed by Leyland. Can make a reasonable argument that at least one of those teams should have won a world series, much less made it to one. But I watched every playoff game during that run and there were not whopping mistakes....there was just bad luck, injuries, wild performances by other teams, and guys going cold at the worst times. In other words....baseball.

Winning the Super Bowl or the Stanley Cup is probably the most difficult feat in professional sports. It is no wonder that teams don't get a chance to do it very often.

[86WARD]

Mike Tomlin wins NFL games with Duck Hodges, Mason Rudolph, and Kenny Pickett playing under one of the worst offensive coordinators in recent NFL history.

I fully acknowledge that Tomlin is part of the series of decisions/problems that created that dumpster fire....BUT...focusing on the actual games....I am struggling to think of a HC that was yoked to that boat anchor of an offense and pulled good seasons together.

Past few years of the Jets is decent comp. Saleh is a defensive coach with a terrible offense and a decent to good defense. Jets have not been winning. Commanders under Rivera is sort of similar. Vikings under Childress....maybe?

Every time, someone says "Tomlin didn't win enough" it comes down to the fact that the "enough" is some intangible vague concept that is not grounded in NFL realities and precedents.

Taking a quick look at salary cap & free agency era QBs who are HOF and tenure with a single team (left out guys like Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, and Kelly as just before this group of QBs that were more contemporary to Ben's career):
Favre 16 years 2 SB appearances
P Manning 13 years with Indy 2 SB appearances
E Manning 16 years with NYG 2 SB appearances
K Warner 6 years with STL and 2 SB appearances
P. Rivers 13 years with SD and 0 SB appearances
D. Brees 15 years with NO and 1 SB appearance
T. Brady 20 years NE and 9 SB appearances
P. Mahomes 7 years with KC and 3 SB appearances

Ben had 18 years and 3 SB appearances. Among his contemporaries at QB, there are two that definitely better that (Brady and Mahomes) and one that arguably does (Warner).

And you can argue that the discussion is about Tomlin; not Ben. And that one of those was with a different coach. All true and all valid. But this was my quick and dirty way to take a scan through the recent history of the NFL and start establishing some benchmarks. And I further advance that there isn't any coach (except K. Shanahan or Miami Dude depending on your opinions on Purdy and Tua) winning squat without a pretty darn good QB.

The next step would be to look at gaps between SB appearances and the next playoff appearances. As team's cycle up for a SB caliber roster, and down as guys age out, get expensive, etc.

Don’t forget the disasters that have been the CBs and LBs and injuries that have occurred over the years and Tomlin still finds a way to put decent defenses out there using 3, 4, 5, 6 string guys…

[pczach]

Yeah. I've just never gotten the "should" win thing. It wouldn't be sports and we wouldn't call it gambling if we knew who was going to win.

Maybe because I grew up watching sports in eras largely without dynasties? I think many of the Steelers fans that are coming at Tomlin for "enough" seem to have come up with teams like the 70's Steelers and 80's Niners just dominating. I mean I watched some of that as well....but it seems to now be the exception rather than the rule.

I remember the Bonds-Bonilla-Van Slyke Pirates helmed by Leyland. Can make a reasonable argument that at least one of those teams should have won a world series, much less made it to one. But I watched every playoff game during that run and there were not whopping mistakes....there was just bad luck, injuries, wild performances by other teams, and guys going cold at the worst times. In other words....baseball.

Winning the Super Bowl or the Stanley Cup is probably the most difficult feat in professional sports. It is no wonder that teams don't get a chance to do it very often.

And yet within all that randomness you speak of there are NFL franchises that have a blueprint that works better than all the other franchises and their blueprints. It involves having the right people in the right places within the organization, the scouting department, personnel specialists, and the coaching staff. This blueprint doesn't always bring home a trophy, but there is a reason why 6 franchises have won 30 of the 57 Super Bowls. Even beyond that, there are 10 franchises that have won 42 of the 57 super bowls.

Sure there is luck involved in everything, but there is certainly a plan that these franchises have used. Sometimes it takes a long time to find out what works. Some franchises go through long droughts of success when they can't put it all together. But in the end, there are a handful of teams that have done it better than anyone else.

Sometimes, the success is because of the players, coaches, and GM in place. Other times the success comes because the team knows when it's time to move on from those people. It certainly isn't easy, because if it was everybody would be doing it.

There are things you can't control. Owners get old and pass. GM's and coaches are in the game too long and lose their way. Players have a short time in the game, so they age out. Some have devastating injuries that cut their careers short. And some have to make the decision to move away from the game early for other personal reasons.

My point is that knowing when to make a decision to keep a part of the machine in place or to replace it is probably the hardest part of the entire process. There are emotional attachments and trust involved when making these decisions, so it makes it that much harder to decide what to do when there has been success with that part in the past.

They have some tough decisions to make very soon. Here's hoping that the Steelers make the right decisions going forward.

[Born2Steel]

Congrats to the Steelers organization on 20 years without a losing season.

[Mojouw]

And yet within all that randomness you speak of there are NFL franchises that have a blueprint that works better than all the other franchises and their blueprints. It involves having the right people in the right places within the organization, the scouting department, personnel specialists, and the coaching staff. This blueprint doesn't always bring home a trophy, but there is a reason why 6 franchises have won 30 of the 56 Super Bowls. Even beyond that, there are 10 franchises that have won 42 of the 56 super bowls.

Sure there is luck involved in everything, but there is certainly a plan that these franchises have used. Sometimes it takes a long time to find out what works. Some franchises go through long droughts of success when they can't put it all together. But in the end, there are a handful of teams that have done it better than anyone else.

Sometimes, the success is because of the players, coaches, and GM in place. Other times the success comes because the team knows when it's time to move on from those people. It certainly isn't easy, because if it was everybody would be doing it.

There are things you can't control. Owners get old and pass. GM's and coaches are in the game too long and lose their way. Players have a short time in the game, so they age out. Some have devastating injuries that cut their careers short. And some have to make the decision to move away from the game early for other personal reasons.

My point is that knowing when to make a decision to keep a part of the machine in place or to replace it is probably the hardest part of the entire process. There are emotional attachments and trust involved when making these decisions, so it makes it that much harder to decide what to do when there has been success with that part in the past.

They have some tough decisions to make very soon. Here's hoping that the Steelers make the right decisions going forward.

It will be interesting to look at and see how it goes moving forward with the limited number of franchises thing. Does that expand as the league has worked to artificially level the playing field and "worst to first" is kind of the goal? Further does the salary cap and free agency really break up the "dynasty" thing and you don't have the possibility of any single team just reeling off 2 or 3 SBs in a row any longer?

The Chiefs would seem to say "No" but they may have hit a wall with the cap and talent...

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Don’t forget the disasters that have been the CBs and LBs and injuries that have occurred over the years and Tomlin still finds a way to put decent defenses out there using 3, 4, 5, 6 string guys…

I can not think of a defense that has patched itself together like recent Steelers teams. I guess this year's Rams with all the UDFA's and I think there were a few years where the Ravens DBs just were guys winning contests at the local bar due to injuries.

But, yeah, no one seems to want to remember that going to the 5th or 6th string across multiple position groups is not a typical NFL thing. Heck, many teams just fold up when that happens and go in the tank.

[lipps83]

Yeah. I've just never gotten the "should" win thing. It wouldn't be sports and we wouldn't call it gambling if we knew who was going to win.

Maybe because I grew up watching sports in eras largely without dynasties? I think many of the Steelers fans that are coming at Tomlin for "enough" seem to have come up with teams like the 70's Steelers and 80's Niners just dominating. I mean I watched some of that as well....but it seems to now be the exception rather than the rule.

I would agree with that. Unfortunately, some fans have a hard time swallowing the fact that the Steelers certainly did lose a trophy or two to Tom Brady. Tom Brady is an 'every once in a great while' kind of player for a league. The only person comparable to Tom Brady in the leagues history is Otto Graham, and he existed almost 80 years ago.

Some fans say that Tomlin squandered a few years with Ben, AB and Bell, but I disagree with that. Having 3 potential HoF'ers isn't a guarantee of some sort of extreme success. Their ceiling was the AFC Championship game.

It happens.

If having 3 super duper awesome offensive players were a guarantee of a Super Bowl win, then Rivers, Tomlinson and Gates would have had at least one.

And maybe they could have.

But they fired the Head Coach.

[Steeler-in-west]

Without Mason Rudolph guiding the Steelers to two impressive wins, and they were impressive with 30+ points scored in each, Tomlin is likely facing his last season with the Steelers. Notice how the talk of moving on from Tomlin has taken a backseat since MR got in. Congrats Mason, you just might’ve saved coach Tomlin’s job. Congrats Mike for putting in MR just in the nick of time, one more week of Mitch and it’s probably all over.

[Voice of Reason]

That probably had more to do with Peyton Manning being on the team than their head coach, which more proves Mojouw's point than your own. They were barely a .500 team before Manning arrived, and then again after he retired.

Manning was the reason for the team's success, not John Fox (lost SB) or Gary Kubiak (won SB).

What's your next excuse?

Was Manning at the end of his career in Denver better than a relatively young Ben during those seasons? So why didn't Ben's team do better than Manning's?

Seems like you're the one that needs another excuse.

[Voice of Reason]

Every time, someone says "Tomlin didn't win enough" it comes down to the fact that the "enough" is some intangible vague concept that is not grounded in NFL realities and precedents.

Is an 8-8 or 9-8 season where we don't make the playoffs "enough" for you?

Is the number of playoff appearances and playoff wins the Steelers have had over the past ten years "enough" for you?

[lipps83]

Was Manning at the end of his career in Denver better than a relatively young Ben during those seasons?

Aside from Manning's last season where there was certainly a decline in his physical skill sets, I would say that yes, I do think Peyton was a better overall QB during those seasons. You seem to forget that playing QB is more than just being a skilled ball thrower.

So why didn't Ben's team do better than Manning's?

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that is is probably due to the fact that these two teams were comprised of at least 53 entirely different human beings with entirely different skill sets, filling 24 different positions executing their own unique offensive and defensive philosophies given to them through dozens of different of coaches.

In other words, these two teams are not identical at all. They are only similar in their function. Each team also reacted and responded to their opponents in their own unique ways resulting in unique outcomes.

So, Ben > Peyton does not necessarily = WIN.

In this instance '>' is only arbitrary and not factual.

Seems like you're the one that needs another excuse.

You know, when you first joined this board I thought "hey great, another individual that I could have meaningful interactions with" because you gave yourself the name "Voice of Reason".

I see now that you did not choose that name because you are able to use sound logic and reason in your discussions, but rather because you feel that your viewpoint is "the correct one". The more emotional one is the less logical they become because "logic" is born from the mind and "emotion" is born from the soul. While we use each to experience and interpret reality, they are not equal. They are opposites, so the more present one is the less the other becomes.

That is why people who are in high emotionally stressed states need to be "talked down" from the ledge they are on. Their interpretation of reality has become 'illogical' because their emotions are running on overdrive, so they are quite literally, unable to 'think straight'.

[86WARD]

It will be interesting to look at and see how it goes moving forward with the limited number of franchises thing. Does that expand as the league has worked to artificially level the playing field and "worst to first" is kind of the goal? Further does the salary cap and free agency really break up the "dynasty" thing and you don't have the possibility of any single team just reeling off 2 or 3 SBs in a row any longer?

The Chiefs would seem to say "No" but they may have hit a wall with the cap and talent...

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I can not think of a defense that has patched itself together like recent Steelers teams. I guess this year's Rams with all the UDFA's and I think there were a few years where the Ravens DBs just were guys winning contests at the local bar due to injuries.

But, yeah, no one seems to want to remember that going to the 5th or 6th string across multiple position groups is not a typical NFL thing. Heck, many teams just fold up when that happens and go in the tank.

And Tomlin has done that several seasons. Robert Spillane…

[86WARD]

Without Mason Rudolph guiding the Steelers to two impressive wins, and they were impressive with 30+ points scored in each, Tomlin is likely facing his last season with the Steelers. Notice how the talk of moving on from Tomlin has taken a backseat since MR got in. Congrats Mason, you just might’ve saved coach Tomlin’s job. Congrats Mike for putting in MR just in the nick of time, one more week of Mitch and it’s probably all over.

Tomlin wasn’t going anywhere…

[Mojouw]

Is an 8-8 or 9-8 season where we don't make the playoffs "enough" for you?

Is the number of playoff appearances and playoff wins the Steelers have had over the past ten years "enough" for you?

Yes.

[Mojouw]

And Tomlin has done that several seasons. Robert Spillane…

Banner and honestly, let's just start naming offensive linemen.
I know he is not popular among fans, but Tomlin/Steelers turned Montravius Adams' career around.
Most of the reserve DBs on the roster likely fall out of the league when they leave here.

I'm convinced that Tomlin could take like 53 almost random former college players and get them to play competitive football in the NFL. It is his super-power. He gets the most out of guys that others don't see. It is also his kryptonite. He sticks with some of those guys too long because he believes he can get them to play even better. He also thinks he can helm almost any roster to a SB, so every season is "win now".

Couple that with his ability to get "buy in" from guys that in previous college or pro stops had not been noted for their "team first" attitudes and it is a pretty potent combination.

[Steeler-in-west]

Tomlin wasn’t going anywhere…

a dismal 7-9 season ending? I don’t know, there was a lot of chatter out there that he wouldn’t be renewed. I don’t think he would be.

[86WARD]

a dismal 7-9 season ending? I don’t know, there was a lot of chatter out there that he wouldn’t be renewed. I don’t think he would be.

He could’ve posted a 3-14 record this season…would not be fired at seasons end.