Gays in the military

[cold-hard-steel]

There is no thing as "outside the military". When you are in the military, they OWN you lock stock and barrel. Soldiers lose elements of their own civil rights in EVERY part of their life. They may NOT write to their congressman concerning National Government operations, military matters, or foreign policy without prior review and approval by headquarters. Soldiers may NOT participate in a demonstration if they are in a foreign country, regardless of whether they are on leave or in uniform. You may not campaign for, distribute literature for, or or in any way try to "affect the course of the outcome" of an election in any manner among subordinates. Unions can. Bosses can. Not military. Soldiers CANNOT go to a political rally and speak before a partisan political gathering in support of a party or candidate. Soldiers may not take part in organized political campaigns. WHile they can put small stickers on their cars, they are FORBIDDEN to put large signs or banners on their private cars.

An active duty solider is not allowed to hold civil office of a partisan nature, nor non-partisan civil office if that office is considered full time (even if it will not inhibit his duties).

In your spare time, you cannot sell or solicit anything on base/post without the express approval of the commander, furthermore, a soldier is forbidden to sell to another soldier who is junior in paygrade. That means, if a E4 airforce radar operator has a second job selling cars on the weekend in town, and an E2 walks in to the shop to buy a car. The E4 is NOT ALLOWED to sell the car to him. Also, ANY soldier is FORBIDDEN to sell life or auto insurance, stocks, mutual funds, real estate, or any other goods, commodities, or services to ANYONE who is junior to him, or to ANYONE PERIOD on a base/post, regardless of the situation, including being at your buddies house at 2 in the morning over in NCO housing.


THus... in short, There IS NO OUTSIDE THE MILITARY when you are on active duty.

Your reply was really thought through from the beginning till the end. You brang a lot of interesting points,and layed them on the table. Dancing to me is the heart of the thread. You can not dance around a topic that has been in rule for 200 years. I will not bring religion into this,i know it is your expertise not mine. ' This could go deeper than any man has gone before.

[cold-hard-steel]

Pro-creation is my stance. I've said it now i can sleep better not worrying about the sins of others. (BILLYBOB)

[smokin3000gt]

A guy or gal wants to put his/her life on the line to defend me and my family, that person can knock boots with whomever he/she wants to.

Says the guy that doesn't have to bunk with the gay soldier or put his life his hands.

[steeldawg]

Ignorance knows no boundaries!!!

[Vis]

Not reading the whole thread but this isn't about gays serving in the military - they are there. It's about them not having to lie. Many militaries have openly serving homosexuals. It works fine.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article...-deal/19341540

[smokin3000gt]

My point was that it's easy to say 'Yea sure, it's great!' if you're not the one there. It doesn't affect me so I don't think it's my place to say or make the decision. I think it's best left to our troops.

[Vis]

My point was that it's easy to say 'Yea sure, it's great!' if you're not the one there. It doesn't affect me so I don't think it's my place to say or make the decision. I think it's best left to our troops.

So a vote of the troops? Can they vote out everything some of them don't like?

[Craic]

Not reading the whole thread but this isn't about gays serving in the military - they are there. It's about them not having to lie. Many militaries have openly serving homosexuals. It works fine.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article...-deal/19341540

That is a bit misleading however. The US has an all-volunteer military. Israel still drafts its military. Truth be told, the only nations with a military of significance that DOESNT draft, and doesn't have a ban against Gays, is Brittan.

That ban was lifted by the European court THIS YEAR. Thus, we really have NO CLUE how it would work. Furthermore, I have a whole lot of questions about any study that came from the "Centre for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at U.C.-Santa Barbara." Can you say "institutional bias"?

If the military wants Gay men or women to serve. Great. Let em. If the don't, then too bad. The US federal court system should have NO AUTHORITY AT ALL over the military, outside of the supreme court, unless the Posse Comitatus Acts is violated.

[Vis]

That is a bit misleading however. The US has an all-volunteer military. Israel still drafts its military. Truth be told, the only nations with a military of significance that DOESNT draft, and doesn't have a ban against Gays, is Brittan.

That ban was lifted by the European court THIS YEAR. Thus, we really have NO CLUE how it would work. Furthermore, I have a whole lot of questions about any study that came from the "Centre for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military at U.C.-Santa Barbara." Can you say "institutional bias"?

If the military wants Gay men or women to serve. Great. Let em. If the don't, then too bad. The US federal court system should have NO AUTHORITY AT ALL over the military, outside of the supreme court, unless the Posse Comitatus Acts is violated.

The Constitution speaks to the powers and limits of government. The military is Government. The Court system is government. The Constitution allowed for the creation of the Court system. The Court has it's role.

[steeldawg]

My point was that it's easy to say 'Yea sure, it's great!' if you're not the one there. It doesn't affect me so I don't think it's my place to say or make the decision. I think it's best left to our troops.

You seem to have some warped view of homosexuals. Its not like they are going to be attacking soldiers in their bunks because they cant controll themselves. The fact is there is already homosexuals in the military but they dont wear signs saying im a homosexual. Homosexuality does not hinder your ability to be a good soldier and fight for your country.

[NJarhead]

You still think it was hippies and soft politicians that lost Vietnam?

Wasn't it?

[smokin3000gt]

So a vote of the troops? Can they vote out everything some of them don't like?

Sure, why not.

[smokin3000gt]

You seem to have some warped view of homosexuals. Its not like they are going to be attacking soldiers in their bunks because they cant controll themselves. The fact is there is already homosexuals in the military but they dont wear signs saying im a homosexual. Homosexuality does not hinder your ability to be a good soldier and fight for your country.

Really? Show me where I mentioned anything about gays mass raping anybody. I never said they would be attacking soldiers in their bunks, nor did I say it would hinder their ability to be a good soldier. Apparently you're so revved up about this you're putting words in my mouth.

I simply said that it's easy to say one thing or another when it doesn't directly affect anything that you do (not you directly). I think those that have served or are currently serving our country would know better how it affects or doesn't affect the military better then us common folk who have never worn the uniform. I have never been a part of the service so who the hell am I to decide what's best/right/wrong for our military or how those serving should feel?

[BnG_Hevn]

Not a battlefield issue? So what you're saying is that gays in the military will never see combat?

[BnG_Hevn]

Well, I was in the Marine Corps and IMO if someone comes out and reveals they are a homosexual, they will catch heat like no other. You think school kids can be cruel? Try being in the Marine infantry and flaunt that you're a homo, you'll be taken to the shed many times before you decide it was a bad choice.

As for performance on the battlefield, you have homos, I don't think you can say they'd perform any worse, unless they are the bitch in the relationship and cry and whine about everything.

I think this will only be an issue in the military when it comes to "office jobs" - the front line of any war won't see too many flamers.

[Craic]

You still think it was hippies and soft politicians that lost Vietnam?

Since the fall of soviet communism, we have learned that the Soviet Union spent twice as much money and who knows how much more manpower on the American peace movement than the entire Vietnam war. While the Soviets were backwards economically, they were top of the class in subversion and intelligence work.

The American politicians moving against the war did so precisely because of the pressure put on them by the peace movement.

N. Vietnam military now admits Tet was a failure and decimated their troops. When we came to negotiate they were shocked, because as far as they knew, the war was almost over, with them as the losers.

Yes. The hippies as dupes of the USSR and the soft politicians are exactly to blame.

EDIT: Sorry for the spelling and punctuation... I was typing this originally on my phone, and it didn't like "Soviets" So, it became... Sockets

[SteelCityMan786]

I don't have a problem with gays in the military. I respect ANYONE who's willing to stand up and defend our country. But I think it should be up to the military to decide. They're the ones who are putting their lives on the line.

The only thing is, Obama's office is their boss. So in reality, he could still have a roll with that.

[GitNoLuv]

And now you can see the complications associated with the homosexual issue. 5 pages of back and forth. While many don't like the "Don't Ask, Don't tell" policy...it did protect a lot of people. It protected some people from themselves. I don't just mean the homosexuals either. It protected the homophobes every bit as much as the homosexuals who might otherwise be obvious flamers (if given the opportunity.)

It'll be an interesting next couple of years. We'll lose some good gay and straight troops from this.

[zulater]

Since the fall of soviet.communism, we have learned that the Soviet Union spent twice as much money and who knows how much more manpower on the american peace movement than the entire Vietnam war. While the Sockets were backwards economically, they were top of the class in subversion intelligence work.

The american politicians moving against the war did so precisely because of the.pressure put on them by the peace movement.

N. Vietnam military now admits Tet was a failure and decimated there troops. When we came to negotiate they were shocked, because as far as they knew, the war was almost over, with themcas the losers.

Yes. The hippies as dupes of.the USSR and the.soft politicians are exactly to blame

Good post. So few realize how poorly the Tet offensive really went for the NVA. It was a classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on our part due to the reasons you've expressed.

[steeldawg]

Really? Show me where I mentioned anything about gays mass raping anybody. I never said they would be attacking soldiers in their bunks, nor did I say it would hinder their ability to be a good soldier. Apparently you're so revved up about this you're putting words in my mouth.

I simply said that it's easy to say one thing or another when it doesn't directly affect anything that you do (not you directly). I think those that have served or are currently serving our country would know better how it affects or doesn't affect the military better then us common folk who have never worn the uniform. I have never been a part of the service so who the hell am I to decide what's best/right/wrong for our military or how those serving should feel?

"Says the guy that doesn't have to bunk with the gay soldier or put his life his hands." This is what you said your words.

[Craic]

Good post. So few realize how poorly the Tet offensive really went for the NVA. It was a classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory on our part due to the reasons you've expressed.

Thanks Zu. I read somewhere, where the Tet Offensive is as textbook a study as possible on how to defend against a major, multi-pronged attack against multiple bases.

[urgle burgle]

at this point i don't even care anymore. it has become so politicized its rediculous. the gay community and the ones trying to make these decisions would be much better served if they addressed the in/outs of making this happen. co-habitaiton, showering, deployments, barracks, etc. address those issues and you would prob have more for it. interesting to see how it will all work. as many try and point out, a couple thousand gays have been kicked out of the years(still a very small percentage), and that is a problem. however, many more will either not be willing to join or re-enlist if this passes. that is never addressed.
and additionally, there will be a number of gays trying to enlist, just to make a political statement. putting recruiters in a very awkward place. i forsee a number trying to push the buttons of recruiting offices by coming in as a show, openly holding hands and kissing their signifant others, making snide sexual comments, just to get a rise, and then either sue, for percieved discrimination, or to put a notch in the quiver of their political agendas. interesting it will be.

[Craic]

at this point i don't even care anymore. it has become so politicized its rediculous. the gay community and the ones trying to make these decisions would be much better served if they addressed the in/outs of making this happen. co-habitaiton, showering, deployments, barracks, etc. address those issues and you would prob have more for it. interesting to see how it will all work. as many try and point out, a couple thousand gays have been kicked out of the years(still a very small percentage), and that is a problem. however, many more will either not be willing to join or re-enlist if this passes. that is never addressed.
and additionally, there will be a number of gays trying to enlist, just to make a political statement. putting recruiters in a very awkward place. i forsee a number trying to push the buttons of recruiting offices by coming in as a show, openly holding hands and kissing their signifant others, making snide sexual comments, just to get a rise, and then either sue, for percieved discrimination, or to put a notch in the quiver of their political agendas. interesting it will be.

And once again, our military becomes the subject of political posturing and axe-grinding, while young men and women die for our freedoms. Great.

[cold-hard-steel]

As far back as the civil war,the military took thier stance on this topic.Conduct mis-becoming of a soldier.What it was back in the days before that,i have not done too much delving. We all have our own beliefs on this subject. Too me it all boils down to each of our own morale values. The object of being a species is to reproduce,and to keep the lineage alive,and thriving.How can one species of the same sex carry on that lineage if both species are the same sex? Are we destinied to become assexual?

[cold-hard-steel]

What is wrong with the don't ask don't tell policy? Your sexual preference is none of my concern.If you make it my concern,then i will have a preference.This whole going against the grain shit is really getting out of hand.What is it,if we can't fix it,it ain't broke? Or is it broke,and we need to fix it. What the hell ever came over these people that want to raise more controversey,where there was basically none before.I can see me blowing up on this thread,and i find it dispicable to even question the rules of nature.

[steeldawg]

As far back as the civil war,the military took thier stance on this topic.Conduct mis-becoming of a soldier.What it was back in the days before that,i have not done too much delving. We all have our own beliefs on this subject. Too me it all boils down to each of our own morale values. The object of being a species is to reproduce,and to keep the lineage alive,and thriving.How can one species of the same sex carry on that lineage if both species are the same sex? Are we destinied to become assexual?

so you only have sex to reproduce? Who is the authority on moral values?

[zulater]

What is wrong with the don't ask don't tell policy? Your sexual preference is none of my concern.If you make it my concern,then i will have a preference.This whole going against the grain shit is really getting out of hand.What is it,if we can't fix it,it ain't broke? Or is it broke,and we need to fix it. What the hell ever came over these people that want to raise more controversey,where there was basically none before.I can see me blowing up on this thread,and i find it dispicable to even question the rules of nature.

I'm all for staying the course with don't ask -don't tell. I think gays are entitled to rights and protections, but so is the military. Very out gays could be a detriment to moral and discipline, and moral and discipline are essential to an effecient fighting force.

[7SteelGal43]

a visual representation of the effects of DADT in the military.

[GoSlash27]

None of it bothers me in the least. Our armed services will find a way to make it work.

In the words of Barry Goldwater (the father of modern conservatism): "You don't have to be straight to be in the military, you just have to shoot straight."

[cakmakli]

Leave it at Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I don't have anything against anyone gay but in the military you can be put into situations that you can't control. In my 26 years in the Army, I've spent many a cold night under a poncho liner with a buddy to stay warm. I've spent weeks living, sleeping, eating, in a Humvee with my team. I've showered in a shower room with 10 - 15 guys at a time. It would be very hard to do those things if I knew someone was gay.

And for those that compare civilian jobs with what the military do, in what civilian job would you do any of these things and would you? Look around your office. Would you stand in line nuts to butts waiting to jump under a shower head for 2 mins with your coworkers? Would you share a blanket for a night with that guy in the cubicle next to you if you knew he was gay? I doubt it, so why would you force us to?