You’re still missing the point. Totally overshooting it.Originally Posted by Mojouw
You’re still missing the point. Totally overshooting it.
So what’s the point?
The basic point is there were options out there that were plenty affordable (cap wise and financially) and much better talent wise than Rudolph and Jones. Tomlin stays with what’s comfortable. Currently there are better and very affordable options out there. They won’t release or trade Trubisky…that’s what Tomlin is comfortable with.
And I’m saying that wasn’t true. And isn’t true now either.
Those guys existed but they didn’t want to be in Pittsburgh.
Take Foles. He has a great year under Kelly in Philly. Then a not so good tenure with the Rams. His perception league wide is not very high. So where does he go? Andy Reid. His first coach and a guy known for improving QBs. Gonna get back to a play style he likes and a coach who can potentially maximize Foles perception league wide.
Steelers haven’t had anything to offer a backup QB. so they were stuck with who they had. And then Tomlin said nice things because that’s what Tomlin does.
You have no idea about any of the players thought process. So you’re making up stories as you go to fit a narrative. Has Foles said that was his thought process and that he wouldn’t want to be paid double by Pittsburgh to back up Ben Roethlisberger? Team equally as good as KC at the time with arguably more weapons and a team with a veteran QB that was injured the prior season and status unsure at the time. Better opportunities for playing time with a better cast. But you can pick a plethora of QB free agents and use any as an example. For the sake of the argument, I’ll concede and say he was a bad example even though he took a back up job for only $1.75M. Steelers had $5.7M in cap room to upgrade Jones.
Here’s a list…tell me when Landry Jones passes anyone of them on the talent level:
Kirk Cousins
Sam Bradford
Brock Osweiler
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Robert Griffin
Brian Hoyer
Case Keenum
Drew Stanton
Matt Moore
Chase Daniel
Nick Foles
Matt Hasselbeck
Colt McCoy
Matt Cassel
Chad Henne
Matt Schaub
Luke McCown
Dan Orlovsky
Tavaris Jackson
Josh Johnson
All better than Landry Jones. NONE of those guys would take a back up QB job for a season or two? Some of which resigned with much worse teams as a back up QB…Dan Orlovsky for example…behind a QB that played 16 games 8 seasons in a row.
Tomlin has a history of “being comfortable” and waiting too long to make a change. Examples could include: Matt Canada, Danny Smith, Jarvis Jones and many more. That history trumps any “theories” you have.
So there’s plenty to offer in Pittsburgh…QBs take back up jobs all the time. Even veterans. Matt Hasselbeck took a back up job in Indianapolis behind Andrew Luck. Indianapolis has more to offer than Pittsburgh? So there’s three that accepted a back up job (Foles, Orlovsky and Hasselbeck). Maybe they offered day care and that’s why they went there instead of Pittsburgh.
Jones is equivalent talent to some of that list and far worse than others.
We can easily guess at players motivations. They are not usually very complicated.
The backup QB in Pittsburgh behind either Ben Roethlisberger or, now, Kenny Pickett is a "bad" QB job. It just was/is. There is no reputation of a coach or offensive system being a springboard to further success. There is no coaches with deep roots across the QB community in the NFL. Nor do they have pro player FO guys that are connected to former franchises...
...And that is how Matt Hasselback left the Seahawks. He got recruited by his former VP in Seattle to come to Tennessee. It was two years later in 2013 that he left for the Colts. At that time the Steelers had a newly signed Gradkowski and a newly drafted Landry Jones.
If you go back and actually look at what happened...it is pretty clear why they did and did not move on from guys.
Take a look here: https://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl.../2004?sort=pos
Every 2-3 years they are turning over the position group. Usually one back-up stays around and they bring in a new guy as the #3. Then that guy becomes the two and they start over looking for an improvement. But it just didn't go down the way you are remembering it.
A better argument is that the Steelers are not that good at scouting late round and UDFA QBs. When you bring in Mettenberger to challenge Landry Jones...
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Or not giving them a chance to compete.
- - - Updated - - -
Who was Manning's backup? Elway's? Marinio's? Bradshaw's? Young's? Etc.?
There are like 10 or 15 free agent QBs this year who I'd take over Trubisky. They can't all go to the Jets because they won't start in Pittsburgh.
I think it's a pretty lame argument that we're always making the right moves but our hands are tied. Not just at backup QB, but really any position where the starter sucks or we're paying someone too much money. Blah blah blah we didn't have much choice. Blah blah blah who else could we get. Why is it that we're always the ones whose hands are tied, and all these other teams are figuring it out somehow? How did we get in that situation where we had no choice, did someone else do it? Oh that's right, it's all because we're smart and they all suck, got it.
I think the results over time kind of speak for themselves. If we were making all the right moves, we'd be winning championships. Instead we make average decisions and get average results. Over the past decade, we have basically been the equivalent of what would happen if Diontae Johnson was a franchise. There is definitely room for improvement.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Disagree. Tomlin has a comfort zone and that’s what he sticks with. That’s a proven fact and not just at back up QB and coaching staff.
Since 2004, there has been only 7 seasons where one or more backup QB spots was not changed.
7 out of 18. The other times they brought in 1 or more new guys. Most of that was rosters stabilized by Charlie Batch and/or Lefty.
I’ll buy what your selling on coaches. I’ll definitely buy it on guys like Dangerfield and Marcus Allen.
But history doesn’t seem to support it in this case.
Since 2015 it’s been Jones and Rudolph maybe Dobbs was in there one year. That’s no change with plenty of other affordable improvements out there.
They changed at least one guy at the 2 or 3 spot every year since 2015.
Again, it can be said they’re bad at picking backup QBs. No problem.
But they’ve been churning the QB room more than most other positions.
For me, the far more damning thing is that other than Ben, the Steelers have made zero QBs better in almost 2 decades.
Dixon
Dobbs
Jones
Rudolph
And a host of others all stagnated or got worse after the Steelers got them on the roster.
That’s a lot of either scouting or coaching mistakes.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
I honestly think it's a whole lot of not giving a damn about the backup QB. All these guys WANT to be NFL starters. Once they realize they are not going to be that they begin to settle for the backup role. You see that very obviously in Landry Jones and Mason Rudolph. They both went into their FA year and immediately accepted the Steelers offer of $2M/year to watch Ben. Ben wasn't going anywhere, Ben wasn't coming out, Ben rarely got hurt bad enough for the backup to get any playing time.
I think now, with Ben retired, the backup QB is a position that carries a bit more importance to Tomlin. I don't think he wants a guy in that spot that has given up on being the starter. Having 2 guys that can both start for you makes much more sense now. Which also means the FAs that are out there should be getting more thought and scrutiny than in the past. And they should have more interest in signing with the Steelers than in the past.
I also think Tomlin genuinely likes Mitch in that role. Yes, it's a shame he costs as much as he does, but that's what he was signed for and that's what the Steelers are willing to pay. That's not on Tomlin.
I can see that.
We don’t practice screwed and all that.
No they haven’t. It’s been Jones and Rudolph. No one cares about third string and the “changes” have only been because of injury. Tomlin has a comfort level that he likes to stick with (it’s his biggest flaw) and it is what it is and it is why Trubisky will be here for this season and maybe longer.
Kelly Holcombe, Gary Kubiak, David Woodley for a bit, Terry Hanratty and Cliff Stoudt, Elvis Grbac.
A good franchise QB is so challenging to find, that the likelyhood of having a real good backup isnt going to happen that often.
In the 1990's teams would look at a guy like Mason Rudolph and score big on a Free Agent deal. A team would look at his 2019 campaign and say "Yeah, we can work with something here" with our new bellcow back and sign him to a long deal. Marty Schottenheimer/Bill Cowher types especially would love Rudolph.
Its the sign of the times. This isn't 1995 where there was select few worth a damn Quarterbacks in the league and a lot of flotsam floating around and nothing coming out of college, and dudes like Stan Humphries and Neil O'Donnell would reach Super Bowls. Ryan Tannehill was the last of a dying breed. A pure game manager QB backed up by a powerful running attack.
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Exactly! Even though the question was rhetorical.
Maybe but in the Cowher era(1992-2006) only 2 QBs(Trent Dilfer in 2000 and Brad Johnson in 2002) were not HOF or future HOF QB have won the super bowl....So the QB position were still crucial at this time and we saw how much in 2004 and 2005 how much a Cowher team could dominate with a QB who could make big play.....
a good backup QB wasn't a priority during the Ben era. For one he didn't want an up and comer behind him. And two, agreed that our money was prioritized elsewhere (the B's, Defense). Then there's Batch, Gradkowski, the run of the mill established backups, then the middle round draftees who came and went pretty quickly like cannon fodder, then the odd washed up guy who was given a second chance like Vick. That's the backup story - we're in a new situation now with a number 1 pick as the newly established starter and the high priced FA pickup who's unexpectedly been regulated to the bench
last time we had sort of this situation was 2004 with Ben and Maddox, and Maddox left a year later and who did we bring in? A veteran backup (Batch). I expect the same sort of thing to happen - Trubisky goes this offseason or next and we get another cheaper (hopefully more steady and reliable) vet.
Let us not forget Joe Gilliam. Bradshaw was benched for a game because he got Jerseys mixed up. Gilliam had a cannon for an arm. I’m sorry he was a head case.
Maybe a QB coach to help bring along a young guy would have helped all the years we "didn't" need one
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Merry Christmas
So maybe Randy Fitchner was the problem when he was the QB coach?
Steelers took him in the 11th round. That was their diamond in the rough or Tom Brady if you will. Too bad he was doing drugs - he could’ve been a star. we won’t find that again
Array title="Craic has a reputation beyond repute">
The problem is, you're not going to get a cheaper, more steady, more reliable vet as a backup to ride the bench. You'll get one out of the three, and perhaps, two out of the three. But you won't get all three. It galls me to say this, but the only backup QB in the last twenty years who played better overall than Trubisky did this year coming off the bench, who was more steady and reliable, was Ben when he was injured and listed as a backup. Batch, Gradkowski, Lefty, so on and so forth were all shells of their former selves when they they came to Pittsburgh.
correct me if i'm wrong but i don't remember Batch or Lefty throwing three picks and single handedly losing a crucial divisional game (throwing to double and triple covered receivers). the other two games Trubisky was serviceable - because he played low risk. But is he going to be prone to play hero ball again? If he does i'd rather have a less expensive backup that will play within his capabilities (Case Keenum).
then there's the beginning of the season, pre Pickett, where MT couldn't hit the side of a barn.
Keenum is 35 and has a sub 500 record. He also has a more than 50% INTS to YDS.
Let’s not over rate other backups.
Trubisky is Trubisky but in salary cap football there’s very few good or even decent QBs holding clipboards.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
I am by zero means stating I want Mitch as my starting QB. Lucky for me we have KP as our starter. I am saying I have next to no problem with Mitch as the backup. THE BACKUP.
That’s why he’s a back up QB. What are Keenum’s stats as a back up? I’d be willing to bet it’s better than .500. Those 3-4 seasons as a starter were horrible for him. I think one was good…maybe…
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote