Excluding Belichick and Reid, which CURRENT NFL head coaches in your opinion are better than Mike Tomlin?
Excluding Belichick and Reid, which CURRENT NFL head coaches in your opinion are better than Mike Tomlin?
Kyle Shanahan for sure
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Better in what way? Better offensive mind? Better defensive mind? Better win/loss record? Better than 2 SuperBowl appearances? What is the criteria?
Success. Ultimately, isn't that what head coaches are judged by?Originally Posted by Born2Steel
Last edited by saturdaysarebetter; 02-20-2023 at 07:18 PM. Reason: additional thought
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Are there any?
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Why do I need to exclude Belichick and Reid? Because they had/have the best 2 quarterbacks in NFL history? Do either of their records without said QBs look better than Tomlin's?
Despite 3 losing seasons in a 6-year HC career? OK.
The first 2 years, the 49ers were in full rebuilding...Bill Walsh also had 2 losing seasons in his first 2 seasons in a similar situation....Since 2019, the 49ers have been in the NFC title game 3 times and that was twice with an average QB at best in Jimmy G and the other were a seven round rookie QB....The 49ers were also one of the most injured teams in the league under Shanahan too
It does not mean that Tomlin is a bad coach, he is a very good coach, but I prefer Shanahan
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Reid was a huge reason why Mahomes was drafted by the chiefs....In the 2017 draft, the chiefs were supposed to draft 28th but they made a huge trade up to draft 10th....it wasn't by luck if they have Mahomes since they had vision on it
Andy Reid had 183 regular season wins before 2018....The only thing he lacked was a super bowl
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Picking players is part luck even for the best of them. Reid got ran out of Philadelphia because he couldn’t win the big one. He’s a good coach. But Mahomes is what makes him great.
I think theres a lot that are better at different things and there are a lot that are worse at different things. Overall, there isnt a handful that are better in the league right now than Tomlin. In 5 years, there might be.
Tenure-wise, theres only a handful of others on that same level. Belichick, Reid, Carroll, Harbaugh, McCarthy, Payton, maybe missed one or two?
Other than Belichick, none of them have a resume that is that much better than Tomlin if at all
We all know if Tomlin were fired today, hed have plenty of offers tomorrow and a job that day if he wanted.
QB has always been the most important position and nothing will change that.... But the head coach is the 2nd most important person and it is important to have a head coach who puts the players in a good position to succeed
Every QBs were successful under Andy Reid(expect for the QB in the second half of 2005,but this QB was awful even in the CFL,so you can't blame him for that!), even backup QB like A.J Feely was so good under Reid that the Eagles were able to get a second round draft pick for him!
Of course, to win multiple championships, you need a great QB...Joe Gibbs and Bill Parcells are the only ones to win multiple super bowls without HOF QB
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My pick for Shanahan is only if I would pick for a head coach right now...If this is for career wise,Tomlin is of course ahead of Shanahan and Tomlin is in the same tier that Carroll,Payton,Harbaugh.
How about the 14 who made the playoffs, that's a start.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Almost every other coach.
I'll let you know at the end of the 2023 season. Keeping Canada around is already a handicap for Tomlin (and KP) let's see how they overcome it.
i know people like to include pre 2011 but that's a long time ago. Completely different, team, staff, maybe Tomlin himself was different. I think it becomes less of a factor the longer a coach is around (see Noll). this is a what have you done for me lately scenario. Like i said, let's see how the team does this season, handicap and all.
Shouldn't you do the same then with Tomlin without Big Ben? Great coaches have great QBs. It's hard to find one without the other.
belicheat without brady is having less success than Tomlin. Honestly the measurement of how good of a coach he can be is determined by how good he is without the GCOAT (greatest cheater of all time) as his qb
Formerly known as Fire Goodell
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No, because Ben, while great, is not top 2, or even top 10. I know some will argue the latter, but find one list published anywhere that places Ben in the top 10.
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You again!
One is the best that has ever played the game and the other right now looks like a miniature version of the best that has other played. They aren't just 'great' QB's.
Some would argue that Roethlisberger isn't even the best that has played for this franchise. He is probably at least 3 or 4 tiers behind those other two.
So, while I get what you are saying, yes Tomlin has a little bump for Big Ben, but not quite the same as the other two. Reid without Mahomes was just another coach in this league (20 years without much done). You could almost say the same for Belicheck since Brady won another SB right after he dumped him for Arians. Belicheck has never won a SB without Brady, but Brady has won a SB without Belicheck.
Brady was a much bigger piece of that puzzle.
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Just an FYI, Belicheck's career winning percentage is .476 without Tom Brady.
Not that great really, but if you wanna hire him go for it...... you might not get what you were expecting though.
Buyer beware.
Theres definitely arguments to be made that get Ben into that Top-10 group. Guys like Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, Brett Favre, Roger Staubach Ben can be argued in over some of those names that appear at the end of Top-10 lists. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility he could be argued in over John Elway he eclipses Elway in almost every stat. I think it comes down to what exactly the criteria are on each persons list.
I think Ben is like top 15 but just not top 10
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There’s definitely arguments to be made that get Ben into that Top-10 group. Guys like Steve Young, Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, Brett Favre, Roger Staubach…Ben can be argued in over some of those names that appear at the end of Top-10 lists. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility he could be argued in over John Elway…he eclipses Elway in almost every stat. I think it comes down to what exactly the criteria are on each persons list.
I agree.
It's not about pure stats with Ben. It never was. I don't think there has been a quarterback that ever lived that made more plays with his arm by keeping plays alive playing behind horrible offensive lines, nor was there ever a better quarterback in the 2-minute offense and in game-deciding drives. And he did that for most of his career in an offense that was predicated on the running game and didn't feature him until he needed to pull a game out of the fire. Most quarterbacks play in systems that are completely built around them and feature them. He created his own stage when they needed him the most.
Guys like Brady and Manning were technicians. When everything is right and they had their protection, they would carve you up. A large part of that was also the mental aspect of playing the position and excelling at the LOS, but these guys could rarely make a play when things went bad. Very few guys could overcome a bad play, or bad execution in front of them. Sure, some quarterbacks are great athletes and runners, but to create time behind the LOS and make a throw is football magic IMO. That is why Mahomes is so great to watch play the game. He can beat you within the system and outside the system.
There have been many great quarterbacks and we would all be lucky to have any of them for an extended period of time, but when the game was on the line and you needed someone to make a play or orchestrate a drive....I don't think anybody has ever done it better than Ben.
I like to quantify a quarterback by who would you pick to lead your team down the field in the biggest moments of the biggest games with limited time on the clock and trailing......if your life depended on it. People love to look at stats, but there is always a large part of the game where stats don't matter. Just get it done when you have to.
I honestly don't know where Ben ranks all-time. It's so difficult to decide and it's like splitting hairs with many of the greats....but if I was an opposing fan or coach, I would probably fear Big Ben in those situations more than just about anybody I can think of.
This is seriously the debate right now? Tomlin's greatness is underappreciated because his Hall of Fame QB was holding him back compared to other coaches with HOF quarterbacks, who were all just lucky?
Tomlin walked into the best situation for a new coach in the last 30 years, if not all time. The only one that is even a remotely close comparison is George Seifert or Barry Switzer. Literally everything was set up perfectly for him.
Once that head start wore off, he has been good for about an eighth-place finish on average. Pretty good, but not good enough. Unless they start giving out trophies for having the 20th draft pick the most, it doesn't mean shit. He's just the equivalent of what would happen if Barry Switzer never got fired.
For whatever reason, some people have this idea that length of tenure as a coach is an attribute that is part of your skill set. That no one can be "better" unless they've had a long career and won two or more championships in the past. A complete red herring, but the instant displeasure is voiced, that argument goes up like a wall. Who else would we get among existing NFL head coaches that are also available for hire right this minute, HUMMMMMMMM?
In reality, Tomlin gets beaten out by 8 or 10 guys every season. The fact that it's not always the same exact 8 or 10 guys every year kind of loses its meaning after a while. If anything, it shows there are many talented coaches and many approaches that can work, and longevity is absolutely not a requirement to find the right match at any given time. In fact, if you are consistently coming up short and you are standing pat, that's part of the problem. Tomlin is the personification of standing on a soft 17 when the dealer has a 10 showing. Doing that over and over doesn't make you wise and it doesn't make you great, just stubborn.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Perhaps. But he still managed to get a ring with arguably the worst OL of any Super Bowl-winning team in history not to mention Willie Parker as the RB1 (and we all know how you felt about him). The 2008 Steelers were still a flawed team, no matter how you slice it.
Actually, Barry Switzer resigned after going 6-10 in 1997. And what have the Cowboys done in the generation since then? But to be fair, the Cowboys' biggest handicap for decades now has been "Jerruh."
On that note, at this point I'm not so sure the Steelers' real problem in getting back over the hump is so much Tomlin as it is Art II. With all due respect to the Chief, the Steelers were basically the latter day Browns for almost the first 40 years of their existence until Dan assumed a leadership role in the team. And Art II is definitely not his father - I'm fairly certain Dan would have forced Tomlin to give Canada his walking papers the same way he forced Noll to replace a bunch of his assistants after finishing 5-11 in 1988.
The 2008 team had an ok offense but the most dominant defense in at least a generation, best I've ever seen (unfortunately never having seen the Steel Curtain defense). It was a ready-made Super Bowl contender. Some gradual decline in some areas, but that's kind of the theme of the Tomlin era - a gradual decline.
I think you may be right about that, unfortunately. Unlike his father, Rooney has not done much with his actions or words to show that this is a serious organization for serious people whose goal is to win the Super Bowl or they are going to be fucking pissed. Management from the top on down has not been what I would call ballsy or decisive. The fact that Matt Canada has been allowed to remain is an embarrassment, and a perfect example of that deficiency.
Overall ARII gives me the impression that he is content to wear the captain's hat and get out of the way while the ship steers itself, and as long as you don't make any bad mistakes, no one will criticize you too much. In that respect, Tomlin is, like, THE perfect coach for him. But that is not what you need to win championships in a cutthroat business.
No, you don't want some madman at the helm who always grabs the wheel and gives it a big spin while laughing maniacally. But I think a lot of people have gotten so used to the idea of "stability" that they immediately go there and react to ANY significant action on the part of management or ownership as a "knee-jerk reaction," good thing we don't do that or we'll be like the Browns, etc. But you can't be completely passive, that's no good either.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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Tomlin is hard to quantify.
Obviously most players like playing for him. I do think he gets respect and when things start going off course the team never gets away from him. Last season being a perfect example. After a 2-6 start the team could easily have derailed ( of course many hoped for that to go along with the superior draft position).
On the other hand there's the lack of a coaching tree. How do you last 15 years only to have never mentored a successful coach? Is this a pay thing?(Steelers coaching staff among lowest paid in the league.) Is it Tomlin not wanting pushback from more competent and/or proven assistants? (Flores being a notable exception)
The never having a losing season does matter. Ask anyone who ever competed in anything meaningful. Teams that finish with less than 7 wins more often than not stay stagnated in the low rent territory.
But the playoff drought also matters. And it's not just the low number of playoff wins in the past decade. it's also how and who they've lost to lately. When you're supposed to be a defensive coach to have given up 40+ points in each of your last 3 playoff games. To lose 2 of those games as home favorites! Hard to make that smell good!
Back to the plus side. He's a good man who represents the team and city well. And that matters in Pittsburgh. Continuity also matters.
A case could have been made to fire him after the 2020 late season and playoff meltdown. But all things considered I think he's got pretty much everything there's been to get out of the last 2 seasons. So he's earned the right to be where he's at. But to stay there the needle needs to go! I think positive steps have been made but more have to come. The window is there, by 2024 we need to be on the short list of contenders and show an ability to consistently compete (and win) against top tier teams.
So I really have no answer to the question posed. I mean really what's it matter who you think is better or worse? The only question that matters is whether he good enough or not to win another Championship?
To be determined.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
You are back!!!
My take on why Tomlin's coaching tree has not branches:
1. What makes Tomlin good at what he does is not a learnable skill. Tomlin's ability to connect with players and motivate them to go beyond their self-perceived limits is not a teachable skill. Some coaches have it and most do not.
2. Tomlin came in as young coach and so he hired ore retained "senior" assistants. So that means for most of his tenure his DC was either going to retire or die in his office. His OC has been another matter. Tomlin has largely gone with "tested" and "known quantity" names (that was all that was needed) and the league has gone all googly eyed over new and fresh offensive coordinators.
Finally, Billy B's tree has how many branches....and they all withered and died. Some comically so. Why do I bring him up? Because, while very different, both Tomlin and Billy B are coaches that do not install a system but a culture. That culture then has a great deal to do with the team's success. I do not think you can "teach" and assistant coach to install/instill a culture. You can teach how to install a system -- hench all the Shanahan/McVay clones running around the league. Or the flavor of the month in terms of defensive system landing jobs.
If anything the Steelers have proven it takes more than a great motivator as a HC and talent to be successful in the NFL, you still need a solid staff and scheme to win - specially in the postseason.
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Very insightful. But I would challenge the theory that one cannot be indoctrinated with culture. People skills not so much, but culture yes.
I mean you can teach culture to someone, sure. But being good at teaching and instilling that culture in a group is not something that many are good at or are able to learn to be good at. You end up with a poor copy that doesn't hold up. Pete Carroll is another culture coach with a shallow and not highly successful tree.
I have no idea if it is correct or not, but just something I have been thinking about reading through this thread and the other one about coaching trees...
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