QB's after Terry and Ben.....(another offseason thread)

[Steeler-in-west]

There’s the never ending debate between Terry and Ben but who is the best Steeler quarterback after that? This might have been brought up before in a previous discussion, but I can’t exactly remember when that might have been, (SF or here at SU?). I’ve come across a few articles about it but wanted to throw the topic out here for discussion…anyway, I came up with four names, in no particular order....(just based on record and stats i would go with O'Donnell, but as far as talent and capability, its Kordell and probably Layne)

1. Neil O’Donnell, 91-95

The only QB besides Ben and Terry to lead the Steelers to a Super Bowl, where he was also the goat in that Super Bowl 30 game. Methodical game manager who minimized his mistakes…..until the big game. He was the new hope after a 10 year drought at QB as he and a stingy defense brought the Steelers back from mediocrity. But he turned out to be the anti-Terry Bradshaw (a choker in a critical big setting).

W-L Rec: 39-22, Comp%: 57.1, Passing Yards: 12,867, TD: 68, INT’s 39, Y/C 12, Rate 81.8, Playoff Record: 3-4, with 9 TD’s and 8 INT’s.
1 pro bowl

2. Kordell Stewart, 95-02

Great athlete with word class speed, who became the starting QB after 2 years of play from mediocre Mike Tomczak. Talented passer who took chances and made mistakes in critical situations. I think today he would’ve been very successful by being allowed to be the ‘slash’ type QB he should’ve been in 95-02.

W-L Rec: 46-29, Comp% 55.8, Passing Yards: 13,328, TD: 77, INT’s 84, Y/C 11.2, Rate 70.7, Playoff Record: 2-2, with 2 TD’s and 8 INT’s. (35 rushing TD’s in his Steeler career)

1 pro bowl

3. Brister, 86-92

Had to throw Bubby in here as a cult favorite. Tough QB and good athlete who had trouble reading defenses, and took a lot of chances. The improbable 89 playoff run with Bubby, Merrill Hoge and the young guns on defense was one to remember. Except for that run, the team was pretty mediocre with Bubby as QB.

W-L Rec: 28-29, Comp% 54.6, Passing Yards: 10,104, TD: 51, INT’s 57, Y/C 13, Rate 69.8, Playoff Record: 1-1, with 1 TD and 0 INT’s.
0 pro bowls

4. Bobby Layne, 59-62

He’s mentioned in a couple articles regarding this topic so I thought I’d put him in here also. I don’t know if anyone has been around long enough to have seen him play but he was a 2 time champ and 5 time pro bowler with Detroit before he was traded to the Steelers. He’s kind of like our Chief’s era Joe Montana. The Steelers had respectable winning records will he was here.

Stats from this era can be misleading because it was a very different game then with the passing game being go long or go home. So a lower completion percentage, high Y/C, and high interception rate were the norm

W-L Rec: 27-19, Comp% 49, Passing Yards: 9030, TD: 66, INT’s 81, Y/C 14.6, Rate 65.5, Playoff Record: none with the Steelers.
1 pro bowl with the Steelers.

[Fire Goodell]

dang no touchdown tommy or 'the man' kent graham?

[DesertSteel]

I agree with your 1-2 in the order you have them. Aside from the Super Bowl, Neil took care of the ball well - never throwing double digit INTs. The one area that you didn't list in the stats for Kordell was his 2500+ yards rushing for the Steelers. That was his strongest attribute, but not enough to bump him over Neil.

I do think that Kenny Pickett will easily seize control of the 3-spot

[vasteeler]

Maddox has to be on the list. IMO he is number three.

[86WARD]

Stewart, Maddox, O'Donnell, Layne and Brister should all be on that list. Everyone else is just filler garbage. If you are asking who I would take today to replace Ben, it would be Stewart in a heart beat. He would fit in to today's game quite well IMO. He may even be more willing to play the Slash role as well seeing how players today are more apt to do multiple positions (Patterson, Samuel, etc.).

[Steeler-in-west]

i forgot about Maddox, maybe because he'd only been the QB of the Steelers for 2 seasons, before being replaced by Ben in the beginning of 2004. Still he did win the comeback player of the year award in 02 and the Steelers went on a playoff run that year.

[EzraTank]

I agree with your 1-2 in the order you have them. Aside from the Super Bowl, Neil took care of the ball well - never throwing double digit INTs. The one area that you didn't list in the stats for Kordell was his 2500+ yards rushing for the Steelers. That was his strongest attribute, but not enough to bump him over Neil.

I do think that Kenny Pickett will easily seize control of the 3-spot

The one thing about that 95 Steelers team that often gets overlooked was how good its defense was. They were facing a Cowboys team that had absolutely DESTROYED the Bills in the 92 and 93 Superbowls and the Bills defense wasn't that bad. The fact that the Steelers were driving down only 20-17 before Neil O'Donnell decided to make Larry Brown a rich man was an amazing fact. From what I read about that play Ernie Mills was supposed to run an Up and Out pattern but read the defense differently and ran an Up and Go. People say Mills was wide open for a huge gain if O'Donnell had read it the same ... oh well can't turn back time.

[teegre]

I refuse to acknowledge “1” on your list.

Ergo, it’s Kordell by a mile.

[Steeler-in-west]

if we had to take a QB today and could only take from this group - i would choose Kordell as well. Neil was a great game manager but the SB30 int's bother me every time his name comes up.

as far as Super Bowl 30 and the 'official Narrative'.....

"Neil anticipated an out route," explained Erhardt. "Hastings ran a hitch route."

And Hastings himself described the play as a "hot" situation -- "if the guy's pushing me, I'm going out. If the guy's soft, I'm going in. It was a gray area. I did a hook and Neil read an out."
In other words, O'Donnell is supposed to "read" what the defense is doing and expect Hastings to react the same way. One of them didn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/29/s...isgivings.html

[DesertSteel]

if we had to take a QB today and could only take from this group - i would choose Kordell as well. Neil was a great game manager but the SB30 int's bother me every time his name comes up.

as far as Super Bowl 30 and the 'official Narrative'.....

"Neil anticipated an out route," explained Erhardt. "Hastings ran a hitch route."

And Hastings himself described the play as a "hot" situation -- "if the guy's pushing me, I'm going out. If the guy's soft, I'm going in. It was a gray area. I did a hook and Neil read an out."
In other words, O'Donnell is supposed to "read" what the defense is doing and expect Hastings to react the same way. One of them didn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/29/s...isgivings.html

I quote you, but many others expressed similar sentiment re O'Donnell. So, to all of you, I'm guessing that Kordell's 2 TDs and 8 INTs in 4 playoff starts don't bother you at all??

[Fire Goodell]

Kordell was more exciting to watch but I'd still take Neil over the rest

[teegre]

I quote you, but many others expressed similar sentiment re O'Donnell. So, to all of you, I'm guessing that Kordell's 2 TDs and 8 INTs in 4 playoff starts don't bother you at all??

Kordell saved his worst games for the playoffs. It sucks… especially in 1997, when when he had a 5 TD game against the Broncos just a few weeks before that sh!tshow in the AFCCG. But, I he tried his best; it simply wasn’t good enough.

Conversely, that other guy was PAID OFF to throw the game. (Don’t bother trying to convince me otherwise.) I could never / would never forgive that kind of act.

[86WARD]

Kordell was more exciting to watch but I'd still take Neil over the rest

I didn’t mind O’Donnell but I believe if Cowher (or somebody) would have used Kordell like these guys are being used today and combine that with Slash, he could’ve been legendary. I also think the same had Kordell stayed in that Slash role and was used at QB in small doses. That receiving group of Kordell, Yancey, Ernie Mills and Andre Hastings was very underrated in my opinion. All very solid receivers and worked well as a group.

[tube517]

I didn’t mind O’Donnell but I believe if Cowher (or somebody) would have used Kordell like these guys are being used today and combine that with Slash, he could’ve been legendary. I also think the same had Kordell stayed in that Slash role and was used at QB in small doses. That receiving group of Kordell, Yancey, Ernie Mills and Andre Hastings was very underrated in my opinion. All very solid receivers and worked well as a group.

Don't forget Charles Johnson. That may have been the best quartet since Swann, Stallworth, Bell, Smith. Throw in Kordell and that is easily the best quintet.

[86WARD]

Don't forget Charles Johnson. That may have been the best quartet since Swann, Stallworth, Bell, Smith. Throw in Kordell and that is easily the best quintet.

Totally forgot about him and he was one of my favorite draft picks when he came out…lol.

[Edman]

I agree with your 1-2 in the order you have them. Aside from the Super Bowl, Neil took care of the ball well - never throwing double digit INTs. The one area that you didn't list in the stats for Kordell was his 2500+ yards rushing for the Steelers. That was his strongest attribute, but not enough to bump him over Neil.

I do think that Kenny Pickett will easily seize control of the 3-spot

If Kenny Pickett ends up placing third behind Ben and Bradshaw, that means he was good and the Steelers were contending/winning in his years. Neil and Kordell played in multiple Championship games.

[Edman]

Kordell came into the QB situation in a very awkward spot. The 1997 Steelers were on the tail end of the 90's squad where everyone was leaving/declining. Greg Lloyd was not the same player after his injury, Chad Brown left, and the secondary was gutted with the loss of both Williams and Woodson. Yancy Thigpen had a Pro Bowl Season in 1997, but was shown the door. To make matters worse, Chan Gailey also departed as OC.

Kordell was stuck learning a whole new offense with no reliable targets. Charles Johnson and Courtney Hawkins could not replace Thigpen. Kordell regressed and struggled and was benched and the team hit a dry spell with back-to-back losing seasons.

[teegre]

Kordell came into the QB situation in a very awkward spot. The 1997 Steelers were on the tail end of the 90's squad where everyone was leaving/declining. Greg Lloyd was not the same player after his injury, Chad Brown left, and the secondary was gutted with the loss of both Williams and Woodson. Yancy Thigpen had a Pro Bowl Season in 1997, but was shown the door. To make matters worse, Chan Gailey also departed as OC.

Kordell was stuck learning a whole new offense with no reliable targets. Charles Johnson and Courtney Hawkins could not replace Thigpen. Kordell regressed and struggled and was benched and the team hit a dry spell with back-to-back losing seasons.

Plus, Ray Sherman told him to stop playing like a “black” QB. Really. WTF!?!

Kordell’s biggest asset was his legs. If he didn’t have an open receiver (WIDE open), he would simply run for 3-4 yards… sometimes 20 yards. Then, thanks to Ray Sherman, Kordell stopped running… and instead forced balls into coverages that he had no business attempting. Ergo, he became a turnover machine.

[Edman]

Plus, Ray Sherman told him to stop playing like a “black” QB. Really. WTF!?!

Kordell’s biggest asset was his legs. If he didn’t have an open receiver (WIDE open), he would simply run for 3-4 yards… sometimes 20 yards. Then, thanks to Ray Sherman, Kordell stopped running… and instead forced balls into coverages that he had no business attempting. Ergo, he became a turnover machine.

Speaking of Ray Sherman, he was fired mid-season in 1998. He was that terrible. But it only exasperated the problem as Kevin Gilbride came in and that didn't help either. The Steelers lost even more talent after 1998 and were essentially rebuilding as the Jaguars and Titans began to peak.

Kordell, for all of his foepaws and weirdness. I believe would've succeeded more if the Steelers organization wasn't in the midst of turmoil.

[DesertSteel]

If Kenny Pickett ends up placing third behind Ben and Bradshaw, that means he was good and the Steelers were contending/winning in his years. Neil and Kordell played in multiple Championship games.

Regardless, I don't think Neil and Kordell are very high bars to clear. They are simply the best of the worst. A career equal to either of theirs will largely be considered a bust by most (inlcuding me).

[Steeler-in-west]

I quote you, but many others expressed similar sentiment re O'Donnell. So, to all of you, I'm guessing that Kordell's 2 TDs and 8 INTs in 4 playoff starts don't bother you at all??

it does. But i cut him some slack because he was miss-cast as pretty much a pure pocket passer.

[DesertSteel]

it does. But i cut him some slack because he was miss-cast as pretty much a pure pocket passer.

O'Donnell could bench press over 400 pounds. Maybe he was a miscast guard??

[teegre]

Speaking of Ray Sherman, he was fired mid-season in 1998. He was that terrible. But it only exasperated the problem as Kevin Gilbride came in and that didn't help either. The Steelers lost even more talent after 1998 and were essentially rebuilding as the Jaguars and Titans began to peak.

Kordell, for all of his foepaws and weirdness. I believe would've succeeded more if the Steelers organization wasn't in the midst of turmoil.

Look at how Harbaugh has built a team that highlights Lamar’s skills… and minimizes his flaws. If Chan Gailey had stayed, the offense would have looked a whole lot better.

That said, you are correct: the talent-level dropped from 1998 trough 2000. Ergo, even with a run-first offense, the team likely still would have struggled.

[Craic]

1. Neil O’Donnell, 91-95

The only QB besides Ben and Terry to lead the Steelers to a Super Bowl, where he was also the goat in that Super Bowl 30 game. Methodical game manager who minimized his mistakes…..until the big game. He was the new hope after a 10 year drought at QB as he and a stingy defense brought the Steelers back from mediocrity. But he turned out to be the anti-Terry Bradshaw (a choker in a critical big setting).

W-L Rec: 39-22, Comp%: 57.1, Passing Yards: 12,867, TD: 68, INT’s 39, Y/C 12, Rate 81.8, Playoff Record: 3-4, with 9 TD’s and 8 INT’s.
1 pro bowl

I seem to remember it wasn't O'Donnell that choked. It was Yancey Thigpen who failed to run the hot route twice in response to Dallas blitzes.

[DuckHodges]

the Duck Man!

[DesertSteel]

the Duck Man!

Duck was the QB of the only Steelers game I've seen in person. He led them to a win at the Cardinals and was 16-19 for 152 and a TD, no INTs. He also ran for 34 yards. It was a great day.

[Steeler-in-west]

I seem to remember it wasn't O'Donnell that choked. It was Yancey Thigpen who failed to run the hot route twice in response to Dallas blitzes.

It was O'Donnell, he failed/did not read what the defense was giving him. That's why he's known as a game manager, nothing more.

[fansince'76]

It was O'Donnell, he failed/did not read what the defense was giving him. That's why he's known as a game manager, nothing more.

Yep. He felt pressure that wasn't even there and just chucked the ball up for grabs on the 2nd INT (the backbreaker), as I recall.

Bottom line: O'Donnell was a journeyman QB who played like a journeyman QB in SB XXX. I've always felt bad for the guys on the defense at the time because once they shook the nerves off, they stymied Dallas' offense for the rest of the game.

[DuckHodges]

O'Donnell was a pretty good QB, let's be honest. Though he wasn't 'elite'. He was a guy who wouldn't light up the scoreboard, but also wouldn't lose you the game, until he did on the biggest stage.

[86WARD]

I seem to remember it wasn't O'Donnell that choked. It was Yancey Thigpen who failed to run the hot route twice in response to Dallas blitzes.

Ernie Mills on the first one and ODonnell said the ball just slipped out of his hand.

Second one was Hastings who ran a hook and ODonnell threw an out. Miscommunication between the two. I think depending on the coverage, they would read one thing or another but the coverage was somewhere in between and they each, obviously, read different.