whats wrong with this country ?? i'll tell you

[silver & black]

In my opinion,

What's wrong with this country is oretty simple.

1. All or nothing thinking (My side is right, theirs is wrong. Always).
2. Discussion means pushing talking points rather than interaction and learning from one another.
3. Dearly held beliefs are held only for four or eight years. Once the other party's president does it, it's absolutely wrong.
4. No longer have the ability to be civil in disagreements.

We are heading for a civil war, and sadly, neither side seems to care. We are Rome in its last days.

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The days of working across the aisle with the other party are gone.

I think the problem is that both parties have gone off the rails. There are the citizens that are (for the most part) Democrat or Republican. They see the problems and would like to interact in dialect to try to solve them. Then you have the Democrat and Republican politicians that only have an R or D infront of their name.... which are neither... they are one and the same, just the flips side of the same coin. They aren't interested in dialect or solving anything... just power and personal gain... at our expense.

The only solution to this is to get rid of them. Sadly, everyone just bitches about term limits and dirty politicians, and when the elections roll around, they vote the same dirty politicians back in office and start the same bitching and moaning all over again. If it weren't so sad, it would be comical.

[Mojouw]

Too many politicians have no plan for governing. They have a plan to rile up their base and win an election. But MTG, Hawley (sp?), Santos, and a litany of others (like the guy who posted videos of him punching a tree) are basically talking social media accounts. You have incoming Representatives on both sides who hire only communications staff and social media wonks and ZERO legislative staffers. These people have no intention of proposing bills, debating compromises, or executing a policy agenda. They are basically human brands that generate political memes.

Maybe we shouldn't have spent decades slashing education funding to the point that the majority of the electorate thinks Facebook is a news organization? You get what you pay for!

[Mach1]

Too many politicians have no plan for governing. They have a plan to rile up their base and win an election. But MTG, Hawley (sp?), Santos, and a litany of others (like the guy who posted videos of him punching a tree) are basically talking social media accounts. You have incoming Representatives on both sides who hire only communications staff and social media wonks and ZERO legislative staffers. These people have no intention of proposing bills, debating compromises, or executing a policy agenda. They are basically human brands that generate political memes.

Maybe we shouldn't have spent decades slashing education funding to the point that the majority of the electorate thinks Facebook is a news organization? You get what you pay for!

Or there are more than two genders.

[willy]

In my opinion,

What's wrong with the right is pretty simple.

1. All or nothing thinking (My side is right, theirs is wrong. Always).
2. Discussion means pushing talking points rather than interaction and learning from liberals.
3. Dearly held beliefs are held only for four or eight years. Once the Democratic party's president does it, it's absolutely wrong.
4. They no longer have the ability to be civil in disagreements.

Bingo!

[silver & black]

Bingo!

Changing someone's post is a shithead move. But, it's you, after all.

[DuckHodges]

In my opinion,

What's wrong with this country is oretty simple.

1. All or nothing thinking (My side is right, theirs is wrong. Always).
2. Discussion means pushing talking points rather than interaction and learning from one another.
3. Dearly held beliefs are held only for four or eight years. Once the other party's president does it, it's absolutely wrong.
4. No longer have the ability to be civil in disagreements.

We are heading for a civil war, and sadly, neither side seems to care. We are Rome in its last days.

Bingo, especially #4. You can't disagree with someone, especially with political beliefs in this day and age without them acting like you personally insulted them or just kicked their grandma in the face. The way news channels / sites are, people just will watch and view whatever fits their own biases / beliefs, and it seems like nowadays the truth doesn't matter as much as getting information that just feels comfortable and reinforces your own belief.

[steelreserve]

Too many politicians have no plan for governing. They have a plan to rile up their base and win an election. But MTG, Hawley (sp?), Santos, and a litany of others (like the guy who posted videos of him punching a tree) are basically talking social media accounts. You have incoming Representatives on both sides who hire only communications staff and social media wonks and ZERO legislative staffers. These people have no intention of proposing bills, debating compromises, or executing a policy agenda. They are basically human brands that generate political memes.

Maybe we shouldn't have spent decades slashing education funding to the point that the majority of the electorate thinks Facebook is a news organization? You get what you pay for!

I mean, education spending in inflation-adjusted dollars has increased steadily for the past 30 years, except for a temporary dip under the messiah Obama. But don't let a silly thing like your argument being based on completely wrong information stop you.



The real problem is that we have an entire useless generation that derives validation from the internet, and if you look for it, you can find validation for almost anything, no matter how inane. So instead of learning from the usual consequences of life and wising up accordingly, they recast poor choices as victimhood, portray their bad ideas and delusions as individuality, and use social media like a drug to fuel it.

In the past, people have tended to quit liking stupid shit when they reach their 30s and start having real responsibilities. Now a large number of them seem dedicated to dodging responsibility at all costs, and all they have learned how to do is throw tantrums and demand that some rich guy should take care of everything for them. An entire generation that basically does the equivalent of going around talking shit about their parents constantly, while also demanding that their parents pay for anything they want.

It's not that education is failing, it's that education doesn't do anything to fix it if you are just a miserable shithead.

[willy]

Correcting someone's inaccurate point is a smart move. Thanks Willy.

You're welcome.

[silver & black]

You're welcome.

Yep...still a dickhead.

[willy]

Yep...still at the head of the class.

Thank you.

[cubanstogie]

Imagine a nearly 80 year old dude on another teams forum acting like a 10 year old. Pathetic

[Steeler-in-west]

The leadership of every major tech company I can think of has written letters and made statements to their boards that they dropped the ball and totally misread the nature of the demand and its sustainability. They are all not very good at the economics side of this.

Around here....business is booming as AB would say.

From everything I have seen and read is that far too many companies tried to grab a massive bite of the pandemic apple and over-produced. Then the supply chain snarled and finally broke. PMI has declined late 2022 and early 2023 as everyone focused on clearing out existing inventory. Measures of business confidence have all ticked up as most expect this to be the trough. But what do they know? No idea.

Then everything gets complicated because many Asian markets which is where many of those manufacturing exports go - are still closed as they struggle to come out of the pandemic.

I don't see how they can call this the trough, based on what? The US debt is the greatest its ever been, housing affordability is in the toilet, at least on the west coast. And inflation is still through the roof. the dollar is going to crap . If they want to beat inflation interest rates should be exceeding the rate of inflation - but they're not - not even close. And there's talk of lowering rates later this year. that's a sign that were still in trouble financially. there's more and more talk of a digital currency replacing cash. These are not signs that were headed toward financial stability - not for while. And then there's always the foreign policy factor as well. We're always getting involved in overseas conflict when we have financial problems at home.

[Steeler-in-west]

Bingo, especially #4. You can't disagree with someone, especially with political beliefs in this day and age without them acting like you personally insulted them or just kicked their grandma in the face. The way news channels / sites are, people just will watch and view whatever fits their own biases / beliefs, and it seems like nowadays the truth doesn't matter as much as getting information that just feels comfortable and reinforces your own belief.

we're not as mature in our debates as the previous generations were.

[willy]

we're not as mature in our debates as the previous generations were.

1968 political debate:

[willy]

Imagine having such a smart fan of the greatest NFL dynasty gracing our board? Outstanding.

I love you too, babe.

[DuckHodges]

we're not as mature in our debates as the previous generations were.

I agree. I totally believe that social media is a cause for the downfall, we bred a generation of narcissists

[willy]

I agree. I totally believe that social media is a cause for the downfall, we bred a generation of narcissists

Well it certainly hasn't helped. You can see it on here.

[Mojouw]

I mean, education spending in inflation-adjusted dollars has increased steadily for the past 30 years, except for a temporary dip under the messiah Obama. But don't let a silly thing like your argument being based on completely wrong information stop you.



The real problem is that we have an entire useless generation that derives validation from the internet, and if you look for it, you can find validation for almost anything, no matter how inane. So instead of learning from the usual consequences of life and wising up accordingly, they recast poor choices as victimhood, portray their bad ideas and delusions as individuality, and use social media like a drug to fuel it.

In the past, people have tended to quit liking stupid shit when they reach their 30s and start having real responsibilities. Now a large number of them seem dedicated to dodging responsibility at all costs, and all they have learned how to do is throw tantrums and demand that some rich guy should take care of everything for them. An entire generation that basically does the equivalent of going around talking shit about their parents constantly, while also demanding that their parents pay for anything they want.

It's not that education is failing, it's that education doesn't do anything to fix it if you are just a miserable shithead.

That is TOTAL funding. Federal funding has been pulled with states scrambling to make up the shortfall. From the data I have seen, Federal spending is also buoyed by including college funding. But if you break out K-12, this is what I have always been able to find.







As to the rest of it? I guess know better people? I mean I only find people like what you describe in scary internet articles from the Epoch Times designed to convince me of something or other posted by various denizens of this forum.

It could also be said that there is an entire generation of parents that talks shit about their children's generation after being the ones that gave them participation trophies, broke the housing market, and insisted that their precious little ones never face conflict or adversity. The history of the written world is that previous generations blame the current crisis on the present generation and refuse to acknowledge their part in it. This is not a new pattern.

In my experience, the worst people about social media and that fall into all its traps are those over say like 40 or 50. But that is an entire other conversation.

I do agree that most people suck but

[DuckHodges]

Well it certainly hasn't helped. You can see it on here.

message boards are one thing, but I noticed shit starting to change ever since myspace / facebook got really popular. Peoples' sense of self-importance totally went through the roof since then

[Mojouw]

message boards are one thing, but I noticed shit starting to change ever since myspace / facebook got really popular. Peoples' sense of self-importance totally went through the roof since then

Yeah. The internet in general created a space for the airing of all opinions and points of view. People largely took that to mean that all points of view/opinions are equally valid. We all do it - myself included. But we (meaning all of us) just didn't used to do it so loudly.

Taking outside the realm of politics, it was like when Bill Nye the "Science Guy" debated the dude behind that museum in Kentucky that has people riding dinosaurs or whatever. It is the mistake the internet shoves us towards making. Engagement with everyone and everything. There is no way that elevating reps from those museums to the status of "reasonably debatable" position helps anything. It just allows people to take away the message that "maybe there is something to this dinosaur riding". I mean that science dude from TV was debating it and science doesn't know all...

It is that, but with like everything.

[Craic]

Yeah. The internet in general created a space for the airing of all opinions and points of view. People largely took that to mean that all points of view/opinions are equally valid. We all do it - myself included. But we (meaning all of us) just didn't used to do it so loudly.

Taking outside the realm of politics, it was like when Bill Nye the "Science Guy" debated the dude behind that museum in Kentucky that has people riding dinosaurs or whatever. It is the mistake the internet shoves us towards making. Engagement with everyone and everything. There is no way that elevating reps from those museums to the status of "reasonably debatable" position helps anything. It just allows people to take away the message that "maybe there is something to this dinosaur riding". I mean that science dude from TV was debating it and science doesn't know all...

It is that, but with like everything.

That could be true, but I think Bill Nye the science Guy being considered a good, reputable source is a problem pushed by the media as well. Especially when someone like Dolph Lundgren has a ton more credentials in the scientific field but is still portrayed as the big dumb mean guy in pretty much everything you see him in. Granted, it's the difference between fiction and reality, but I think my point still holds that if you want reputable sources go to people who are experts in the field.

[Mojouw]

That could be true, but I think Bill Nye the science Guy being considered a good, reputable source is a problem pushed by the media as well. Especially when someone like Dolph Lundgren has a ton more credentials in the scientific field but is still portrayed as the big dumb mean guy in pretty much everything you see him in. Granted, it's the difference between fiction and reality, but I think my point still holds that if you want reputable sources go to people who are experts in the field.

Yeah, there is no doubt this is a problem as well.

But the equivalent consideration of each crackpot theory that comes along just seems to be an unintended consequence of the internet's ethos of elevating all things to the same level.

You just can not put this kinda thing on the same playing field as what actual real science knows about stuff: https://creationmuseum.org/dinosaurs-dragons/bones/

I won't push this particular point much further because I really don't want to get into a secular versus religious debate on how the universe was created. But I still think the internet allowing for the appearance of equivalent debate between wildly different ends of the empirical spectrum has been corrosive to most people's understanding of what we do and do not know about the universe around us.

[willy]

message boards are one thing, but I noticed shit starting to change ever since myspace / facebook got really popular. Peoples' sense of self-importance totally went through the roof since then

You're probably right.

[Steeler-in-west]

https://youtu.be/y9BpHlkChWI

Phew! What relief!!!

[steelreserve]

I don't see how they can call this the trough, based on what? The US debt is the greatest its ever been, housing affordability is in the toilet, at least on the west coast. And inflation is still through the roof. the dollar is going to crap . If they want to beat inflation interest rates should be exceeding the rate of inflation - but they're not - not even close. And there's talk of lowering rates later this year. that's a sign that were still in trouble financially. there's more and more talk of a digital currency replacing cash. These are not signs that were headed toward financial stability - not for while. And then there's always the foreign policy factor as well. We're always getting involved in overseas conflict when we have financial problems at home.

Interest rates aren't going to do shit to beat inflation, because this time it was not a result of the usual economic conditions that cause inflation. It was a massive, one-time artificial increase in the money supply that still has not been completely assimilated into the price of everything. Unless the government can figure out how to un-print trillions of dollars, enjoy your inflation, because it doesn't matter whether interest rates are 1% or 1,000,000%, it's still coming.

Again, so we all understand where the blame for this is properly placed - remember that this is you paying back your own COVID bailout money. For a couple of $600 checks, your share of the national debt went up $20K (money that your children will be paying back, really) and you pay twice as much for everything, forever. Your government at work.

That is TOTAL funding. Federal funding has been pulled with states scrambling to make up the shortfall. From the data I have seen, Federal spending is also buoyed by including college funding. But if you break out K-12, this is what I have always been able to find.







As to the rest of it? I guess know better people? I mean I only find people like what you describe in scary internet articles from the Epoch Times designed to convince me of something or other posted by various denizens of this forum.

It could also be said that there is an entire generation of parents that talks shit about their children's generation after being the ones that gave them participation trophies, broke the housing market, and insisted that their precious little ones never face conflict or adversity. The history of the written world is that previous generations blame the current crisis on the present generation and refuse to acknowledge their part in it. This is not a new pattern.

In my experience, the worst people about social media and that fall into all its traps are those over say like 40 or 50. But that is an entire other conversation.

I do agree that most people suck but

So federal funding has flattened out, but other spending has increased. More money is being thrown at education than ever. This is not the same picture of "slashing budgets" that I was led to expect. Maybe it makes sense if if you are one of those people who believes state officials when they say "schools are underfunded, we need to pass a new tax earmarked for schools," and then what they actually do instead is divert existing school funding to bullshit "climate initiatives" and other money pits, and use the new tax to replace that, and still claim that schools are underfunded. They do the same thing with taxes for road repairs, and people still fall for it over and over.

As for your other point, about how liberal parenting has produced a generation of worthless offspring, who have grown up to create more problems for everybody - I completely agree. It's not for no reason that people say that way of thinking ruins everything it touches. You would think at some point, they'd give it up and all go home and hang themselves, but they're too arrogant for that.

[Mojouw]

Getting too long and ugly graphics to quote....

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-...school-funding

One state had its reduced level of funding declared a violation of the state constitution by the very judges the legislature had appointed.

Maybe in Cali there is decent school funding....but not out my way and not as rule across the country. Here, funding didn't keep pace with inflation for the two previous Governors and the $$$ are all tied up in political wrangling with the current Governor.

In many cases both here and in other states, we aren't talking about the funding of specific programs, but the inability to hire staff and repair potholes. This points out the potential pitfalls of our patchwork quilt approach to education. Depending on where you are raised....you have have vastly different access to resources. Sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

[Craic]

Yeah, there is no doubt this is a problem as well.

But the equivalent consideration of each crackpot theory that comes along just seems to be an unintended consequence of the internet's ethos of elevating all things to the same level.

You just can not put this kinda thing on the same playing field as what actual real science knows about stuff: https://creationmuseum.org/dinosaurs-dragons/bones/

I won't push this particular point much further because I really don't want to get into a secular versus religious debate on how the universe was created. But I still think the internet allowing for the appearance of equivalent debate between wildly different ends of the empirical spectrum has been corrosive to most people's understanding of what we do and do not know about the universe around us.

The thing is, we wouldn't differ that much at all in such a discussion. Where we do differ is that I believe as a free society, the most ignorant voices must be given the same opportunities as the most informed and/or educated. The problem isn't the Internet providing that forum, it's that our nation is in such a binary mindset that confirmation bias is something sought rather than avoided regardless of the truth value in the statement or source being assessed.

That said, I like the guy arguing with the scientist because that is how ideas get exposed and the confirmed, changed, or debunked. It's why I am completely okay with the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Nation of Islam, and the Cleveland Browns having a voice. When their utter stupidity is exposed and dismissed, it comes about naturally. Sure, it takes a long time, but it is worth that time in a free society.

Perhaps, however, I'm misunderstanding you and your argument is more along the lines of people not being able to differentiate between opinion, expert opinion, fact, and absolute truth. If that is the case, we're in 100 percent agreement. I can't tell you how many times I've docked students for using web pages as sources.

[Mojouw]

The thing is, we wouldn't differ that much at all in such a discussion. Where we do differ is that I believe as a free society, the most ignorant voices must be given the same opportunities as the most informed and/or educated. The problem isn't the Internet providing that forum, it's that our nation is in such a binary mindset that confirmation bias is something sought rather than avoided regardless of the truth value in the statement or source being assessed.

That said, I like the guy arguing with the scientist because that is how ideas get exposed and the confirmed, changed, or debunked. It's why I am completely okay with the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Nation of Islam, and the Cleveland Browns having a voice. When their utter stupidity is exposed and dismissed, it comes about naturally. Sure, it takes a long time, but it is worth that time in a free society.

Perhaps, however, I'm misunderstanding you and your argument is more along the lines of people not being able to differentiate between opinion, expert opinion, fact, and absolute truth. If that is the case, we're in 100 percent agreement. I can't tell you how many times I've docked students for using web pages as sources.

This - the bolded statement from your post is very much what I was trying to express. Everyone should have a voice and get their voice out there. Fine. No problem. But like you said, not all sources of information are equal. And the culture of the internet is that they are. This leads people to be unable or unwilling to work through tiers of information.

The biggest thing that drives me up a wall after the stuff you outlined in your statement is the confusion, driven by online culture, that if someone disagrees with, belittles, or attacks your opinion that you are being "censored". You're just not. The right to free expression is not a protection from consequences from that expression.

Take the two together and that was kind of what I was getting at.

This may be a great example of all of this - but if someone tells me that there is evidence that cavemen rode Dinosaurs, then I am going to laugh at them. Then call them delusional and suggest they take a few remedial science classes. What I am not going to do is set-up a public debate to make sure I hear both sides.

In general, people can and should argue/debate out the issues. But there are some instances that take it all too far and then it undermines the concept of a real and knowable universe.

[steelreserve]

The reason why there are accusations of censorship and coercion is not because the flat-earthers and the chemtrail people are being ridiculed. It is because of the many cases - usually tied to a political viewpoint that demands extraordinary action - in which the evidence ranges from "far from conclusive" to "complete half-cocked theory," and then the side demanding radical action aggressively squelches further discussion through threats or outright removal, in order to leverage half-finished research into their desired political or social outcome.

For example, if you were to say any of the following recently:

"There's a high chance you've greatly overestimated the eventual impact of climate change, and your typical climate activist doesn't even know the science,"

"There are many cases in which the psychological definition of gender and the biological definition of sex are not interchangeable, and it is asinine to keep attempting to use them that way,"

"There is very little evidence to suggest COVID is as dangerous as you say it is; that would be very unlikely and you have probably jumped the gun and you should stop,"

"Statistics seem to indicate that (fill in grievance) does NOT really indicate there's racism everywhere, this happens all the time, it just happened to be a black guy in this one instance,"

... then you would have found it highly likely that your account was removed from social media and people demanded you be fired from your job. In other words, harassing and threatening anyone who did not go along with your political belief, for which science and data were selectively used as a prop. People don't appreciate being called stupid when they're not, or told they don't understand science when they do, or called racists when they're not; and they definitely don't like being shouted down or threatened. That is what religious cults and fascists do.

So I would say the "censorship" claims are a direct result of the left's cult-like actions, and of them predictably denying in cult-like fashion that they are doing it. No, we're not the cause of this new phenomenon suddenly happening, it's everybody else.

[Craic]

The reason why there are accusations of censorship and coercion is not because the flat-earthers and the chemtrail people are being ridiculed. It is because of the many cases - usually tied to a political viewpoint that demands extraordinary action - in which the evidence ranges from "far from conclusive" to "complete half-cocked theory," and then the side demanding radical action aggressively squelches further discussion through threats or outright removal, in order to leverage half-finished research into their desired political or social outcome. . . .

But, that is not censorship. Censorship is the government limiting your speech. What you describe is a business, which are a bunch of individuals working together, who are exerting their first amendment right of freedom of association. It is their platform. They get to associate with whomever they want. Forcing them not to delete an account is violating another first amendment right—freedom of association.

Moreover, the calls for a person to be fired is also somebody else's first amendment right, it's freedom of speech. Shutting that down according to your argument would also be censorship.

Personally, I think deleting accounts and calling for people to be fired is wrong. But that and censorship are two different things