Russia vs Ukraine

[Dwinsgames]

the problem I have in all of this is the Media rarely speaks the truth , the Government rarely speaks the truth these days ...

they both do their damnedest to divide us and keep us arguing with one another about which side is right meanwhile these public servants making less than 200k per year are gaining wealth by the millions each year right under our noses ....

they are all a bunch of fricken liars selling us and our country down the river for a few extra bucks to put in those fast growing bank accounts ....

and the good ole boys club just keeps getting reelected and when we do get a couple good ones in they are quick to leave because the stench of DC is tough to get out even with the strongest of detergents....

what do we really know for FACT about all this ?

not much .......

but if Ukraine had bio hazard labs close to the Russian boarder being funded by the US I am not sure how anyone could blame Russia for wanting them gone .... but our government isnt gonna tell us the truth and we can't believe the Russians either

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

OK. So how should we think of Putin?

He is one great hockey player and people that oppose him sometimes end up dead.

Here’s a list of Putin critics who've ended up dead

List of People Putin Is Suspected of Assassinating (businessinsider.com)

[cubanstogie]

He is one great hockey player and people that oppose him sometimes end up dead.

Here’s a list of Putin critics who've ended up dead

List of People Putin Is Suspected of Assassinating (businessinsider.com)

Clinton’s list is pretty big too.
http://www.capecharlesmirror.com/new...ore-testimony/

[Mojouw]

Thank goodness we didn’t have the Internet and the algorithm during the Cold War. Some of you all would’ve been defending Pol Pot and Kruschev.

I’m honestly trying to legitimately understand how there is such an overlap between “dudes that own and display Reagan memorabilia” and “Putin might be an okay guy”.

Those seem more than a bit mutually exclusive.

Also, thanks DWins for sharing your perspective. I’m not in alignment with it but it helps to have a conversation about where we all are coming from.

[willy]

[Orion]

US Citizen from Minnesota enlisting to fight in Ukraine as part of their Foreign Legion. Brave guy and definitely not a comrade of Putin like some US citizens.
]

Reddit Soldier of Fortune in Ukrainian Warns It's a Trap & You Will Die

[Shoes]

Ukraine has the largest orphanage system in Europe. Most of this was inherited from the Soviet era and the institutions today were still operating without the child's best interest in mind. Hopefully the beauty for ashes in this disaster, at least for the children will be in finding a new home in some other country that will truly care for them.

My wife and I lived here in the 90s after the first Gulf War and the Balkan War. Our little town was overflowing with all types of refugees from many different countries. After thirty years we still have contact with many of these families and their children. It's wonderful to see that the babies and children we held now have their own families and are mechanics, small business owners, in law enforcement service, doctors, lawyers, etc and have a happy meaningful life.

And now once again after moving back here a year and a half ago, for good, our little town will be overflowing with Ukrainians.

There is no question in my mind that selfishness is the root of all evil in this world, and by that I mean placing my will above others. It comes in all levels and shades and it raises its ugly head in me every day.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Clinton’s list is pretty big too.
http://www.capecharlesmirror.com/new...ore-testimony/

So Bill Clinton is engineering the Russian invasion of the sovereign nation of Ukraine?

Shouldnt you be waiting somewhere for JFK to come back?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Ukraine has the largest orphanage system in Europe. Most of this was inherited from the Soviet era and the institutions today were still operating without the child's best interest in mind. Hopefully the beauty for ashes in this disaster, at least for the children will be in finding a new home in some other country that will truly care for them.

My wife and I lived here in the 90s after the first Gulf War and the Balkan War. Our little town was overflowing with all types of refugees from many different countries. After thirty years we still have contact with many of these families and their children. It's wonderful to see that the babies and children we held now have their own families and are mechanics, small business owners, in law enforcement service, doctors, lawyers, etc and have a happy meaningful life.

And now once again after moving back here a year and a half ago, for good, our little town will be overflowing with Ukrainians.

There is no question in my mind that selfishness is the root of all evil in this world, and by that I mean placing my will above others. It comes in all levels and shades and it raises its ugly head in me every day.

Thanks for the insight. I was thinking of you, when Russia warned Finland and Sweden to not seek NATO inclusion. I know that as Russians are leaving on the train to Helsinki to seek safety, that the Finnish military has been enhancing their presence on the eastern borders. Scandinavia could be the next area of conflict, after Ukraine and I hope not.

I am old enough to remember when Americans were against Russia and the killing of innocent Europeans, but sadly there seems to be a fair number that are pro Russia and indifferent to human suffering, as long its not their own.

[Orion]

i remember seeing this. the German representative literally were laughing when Trump was telling them it was a mistake putting themselves at Russia's mercy. this happened during the same speech when he called them out for not honoring the NATO agreement of spending 2% on defense.

Germany laughed at President Trump at the UN when the President warned about being dependent on Russian oil and gas. Today the gas lines into Europe from Russia are no longer sending natural gas to Europe. They’re not laughing anymore.


The Germans and the rest of Europe better hope that spring comes fast. The Daily Caller reports:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/202...erving-europe/

[steelreserve]

Thank goodness we didn’t have the Internet and the algorithm during the Cold War. Some of you all would’ve been defending Pol Pot and Kruschev.

I’m honestly trying to legitimately understand how there is such an overlap between “dudes that own and display Reagan memorabilia” and “Putin might be an okay guy”.

Those seem more than a bit mutually exclusive.

Also, thanks DWins for sharing your perspective. I’m not in alignment with it but it helps to have a conversation about where we all are coming from.

I'd say it stems from the fact that there now exists such a deeply ingrained distrust that the initial reaction of many is to immediately reject any idea that the left puts forward. There is a very good reason for that - it did not just come out of the blue. While in this case it has sometimes crossed into the absurd, there is some cause and effect going on here that, if those on the left just say, "ha ha, what a bunch of idiots," they are missing an important lesson about their own behavior.

[willy]

I'd say it stems from the fact that there now exists such a deeply ingrained distrust that the initial reaction of many is to immediately reject any idea that the left puts forward. There is a very good reason for that - it did not just come out of the blue. While in this case it has sometimes crossed into the absurd, there is some cause and effect going on here that, if those on the left just say, "ha ha, what a bunch of idiots," they are missing an important lesson about their own behavior.

Yeah, it's the lefts fault that a percentage of the right supports Putin.

[Mach1]

Yeah, it's the lefts fault that a percentage of the right supports Putin.

[willy]

In other words you got nothing as usual.

Why does Putin have superfans among the US right wing?

Arwa Mahdawi

Say what you like about Vladimir Putin; he may be slaughtering innocent Ukrainians, but, on the plus side, he has never once called the Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson a racist. Last Tuesday, Carlson, who is reportedly paid $10m (£7.5m) a year for his piercing insights and analysis, told Americans that they had been brainwashed into thinking Putin was a baddie. Think critically, Carlson instructed his depressingly large audience. Ask yourself this, he posited: “Has Putin ever called me a racist? Has he threatened to get me fired for disagreeing with him? … Is he making fentanyl? Is he trying to snuff out Christianity? Does he eat dogs? These are fair questions – and the answer to all of them is no.” To be clear: these are inane questions and the answer to all of them is: “Turn off Fox News before the rest of your brain turns to mush.”

Carlson, it should be said, has significantly toned down the pro-Putin rhetoric in the past few days. What is noteworthy, however, is the fact that Carlson is far from the only person on the US right to have a soft spot for old Vlad. While Donald Trump has called the Russian attack on Ukraine “appalling”, he has also called Putin’s actions “genius”, “savvy” and “smart”.


While I haven’t called up every white nationalist group in the US and Europe for comment, it is fair to say the Russian premier has a fervent fanbase among the far right in the west. Why is this? They love what he has done with Russia. They love the way he has dismantled women’s rights. They love his attacks on gay and transgender people. They love his dismissal of western liberalism. Their values align perfectly.

There is also a whiff of antisemitism in the right’s support for Putin. On Sunday, for example, Wendy Rogers, a Republican state senator in Arizona, tweetedabout the Ukrainian president: “[Volodymyr] Zelensky is a globalist puppet for Soros and the Clintons.” “Globalist” and “Soros” are well-established dog whistles, of course. (Zelenskiy is Jewish.)
Rogers’ comments on Zelenskiy came shortly after she attended a white nationalist convention in Florida, where she praised Nick Fuentes, its Holocaust-revisionist organiser, and proposed hanging “traitors” from “a newly built set of gallows”. A very normal thing for a politician to say! Fuentes, meanwhile, urged the crowd to applaud Russia and had them chanting: “Putin! Putin!”

It is not just the racism, homophobia and misogyny that the right love about Putin: it is also his muscle. A Yahoo News/YouGov poll from January found that 62% of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents reckon Putin is a “stronger leader” than Joe Biden; that number rises to 71% among those who name Fox News as their primary source of cable news. Putin’s bare-chested photoshoots have done their job, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-us-right-wing

[Mojouw]

I'd say it stems from the fact that there now exists such a deeply ingrained distrust that the initial reaction of many is to immediately reject any idea that the left puts forward. There is a very good reason for that - it did not just come out of the blue. While in this case it has sometimes crossed into the absurd, there is some cause and effect going on here that, if those on the left just say, "ha ha, what a bunch of idiots," they are missing an important lesson about their own behavior.

I see what you are getting at but I have a hard time trying to see that side of things in this particular case. Putin ordered tanks and missiles across another country's border for no real reason. This isn't something that we first heard about at my bleeding heart leftist meeting. We all saw it on TV.

Can turn it around and argue that if an individual's steady diet of drivel on social media makes them prone to swallowing recycled KGB propaganda...then might want to examine that.

[Craic]

I see what you are getting at but I have a hard time trying to see that side of things in this particular case. Putin ordered tanks and missiles across another country's border for no real reason. This isn't something that we first heard about at my bleeding heart leftist meeting. We all saw it on TV.

Can turn it around and argue that if an individual's steady diet of drivel on social media makes them prone to swallowing recycled KGB propaganda...then might want to examine that.

I think what SR is getting at is the reasoning that has been given for the invasion is being questioned. And, it's not just the political left. It's the news organizations that deliver the news, the same ones that were piling on and shedding any semblance of unbiased reporting during the Trump administration. Doing so sewed a lot of distrust and now that distrust is coming up.

That said, the most basic facts that I can see is a nation violated the sovereignty of another nation without a casus belli. That, alone, makes Russia the aggressor and must be stopped.

You also asked several pages ago what we who believe Biden isn't doing enough think should be done. First, armed US drones should have been flying over Ukraine airspace since December. Second them to the Ukrainian military. Heck, second the drone pilots to the Ukrainian military and slap a Ukrainian flag on the drones. Then, the first time a Russian tank or vehicle crossed the border, it should have been lit up.

Second, send special forces into the Ukraine to act as advisors for resistance fighting. In fact, this would be an extension of what they were already doing with the regular military (and I recognize this very well may be happening and kept secret).

Third, create in Russia what the Soviet Union created in the United States during the Vietnam war. Pour millions of dollars into funding peace movements, student agitators, and the like. And then, when they get arrested, make sure that information spreads as well.

Those are three things just off the top of my head, none of which would put the foot of a US solder wearing a US flag in combat.

[steelreserve]

I see what you are getting at but I have a hard time trying to see that side of things in this particular case. Putin ordered tanks and missiles across another country's border for no real reason. This isn't something that we first heard about at my bleeding heart leftist meeting. We all saw it on TV.

Can turn it around and argue that if an individual's steady diet of drivel on social media makes them prone to swallowing recycled KGB propaganda...then might want to examine that.

What I'm saying is that you are seeing this reaction for many of the same reasons that you saw the reaction to, for example, COVID vaccines. There are a lot of people who are so fed up that it hardly even matters what the topic is - the initial response is a flat "FUCK YOU" followed by searching for any explanation that can back that position up.

In this case, I don't think it's the right reaction, and it takes some ridiculous reaches to begin justifying it. In the case of vaccines, the scientific or medical reasons for opposing it are extremely thin, although there are very real reasons for opposing the government coercion and overreach that predictably came along with it.

Bottom line is, I don't think the issue is that you suddenly have a bunch of conspiracy wackjobs who all bought into ridiculous propaganda because they are easily influenced by Fox News. That's the way to brush it off with a snarky soundbite, but it's pretty much the reverse of what's going on. The tinfoil hat crowd who gets all wrapped up in that shit has always been a very small cadre of weirdos, and it didn't randomly grow 20 times overnight for no reason at all. This is more of a "shoot first, ask questions later" response.

What really happened is that over the past two years the left earned - with cause - a huge amount of intense hatred, and made a huge number of lifelong enemies who are fully committed to the "fuck you, forever" program. Since the war is perceived as Biden's / the left's issue, that's the response it gets. If they were smart, they'd be concerned about that, not trying to laugh it off.

[willy]

Bottom line is, I don't think the issue is that you suddenly have a bunch of conspiracy wackjobs who all bought into ridiculous propaganda because they are easily influenced by Fox News.

Not suddenly, they've been 'conspiracy wackjobs' for years.

The “Big Lie”: Most Republicans Believe the 2020 Election was Stolen

PRRI Staff,
05.12.2021


Republicans in the House of Representatives have voted to dismiss Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) from her position as chair of the House Republican Conference due to her refusal to support former President Donald Trump and go along with the so-called “Big Lie,” the false narrative that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. PRRI’s March survey shows that Cheney is indeed in the minority within her party. While less than three in ten Americans (29%) agree with the statement that “the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump,” two-thirds of Republicans (66%) agree that the election was stolen.

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/the-b...on-was-stolen/

[Mojouw]

I think what SR is getting at is the reasoning that has been given for the invasion is being questioned. And, it's not just the political left. It's the news organizations that deliver the news, the same ones that were piling on and shedding any semblance of unbiased reporting during the Trump administration. Doing so sewed a lot of distrust and now that distrust is coming up.

That said, the most basic facts that I can see is a nation violated the sovereignty of another nation without a casus belli. That, alone, makes Russia the aggressor and must be stopped.

You also asked several pages ago what we who believe Biden isn't doing enough think should be done. First, armed US drones should have been flying over Ukraine airspace since December. Second them to the Ukrainian military. Heck, second the drone pilots to the Ukrainian military and slap a Ukrainian flag on the drones. Then, the first time a Russian tank or vehicle crossed the border, it should have been lit up.

Second, send special forces into the Ukraine to act as advisors for resistance fighting. In fact, this would be an extension of what they were already doing with the regular military (and I recognize this very well may be happening and kept secret).

Third, create in Russia what the Soviet Union created in the United States during the Vietnam war. Pour millions of dollars into funding peace movements, student agitators, and the like. And then, when they get arrested, make sure that information spreads as well.

Those are three things just off the top of my head, none of which would put the foot of a US solder wearing a US flag in combat.

All of the military options you outlined, while potentially highly effective, would trigger an interlocking warren of international and NATO treaties that results in WW III. Be it drones or US jets enforcing a no-fly zone, as soon as NATO asset or NATO loaned asset kills or is killed by the Russians --- it is basically a 21st century version of how WWI got started. Not sure how that is a realistic option with the other planet-killer nuclear power.

We could sell the drones to the Ukrainians but they don't know how to fly them. Just like the front-line fighter jets they can not take because no one knows how to use them. What they do know how to fly is those Turkish (I think) made drones. Which is why the Biden administration has been shipping them boatloads of cash.

The efforts at internal regime destabilization is a nice idea. That should be happening. Although the KGB was just always better at it than the CIA. No idea why. They just were.

Anyways not an attempt to say you are wrong or way off, but that it is really complicated to intervene with anything that goes "boom" in Ukraine.

The rest of it...sure I don't trust most media sources either. Why I haven't watched televised news coverage in...well I can't remember...but a long time. But, still to go from that to "Well...maybe this Putin guy has some good points...." That's just too much for me to wrap my head around.

[Mojouw]

What I'm saying is that you are seeing this reaction for many of the same reasons that you saw the reaction to, for example, COVID vaccines. There are a lot of people who are so fed up that it hardly even matters what the topic is - the initial response is a flat "FUCK YOU" followed by searching for any explanation that can back that position up.

In this case, I don't think it's the right reaction, and it takes some ridiculous reaches to begin justifying it. In the case of vaccines, the scientific or medical reasons for opposing it are extremely thin, although there are very real reasons for opposing the government coercion and overreach that predictably came along with it.

Bottom line is, I don't think the issue is that you suddenly have a bunch of conspiracy wackjobs who all bought into ridiculous propaganda because they are easily influenced by Fox News. That's the way to brush it off with a snarky soundbite, but it's pretty much the reverse of what's going on. The tinfoil hat crowd who gets all wrapped up in that shit has always been a very small cadre of weirdos, and it didn't randomly grow 20 times overnight for no reason at all. This is more of a "shoot first, ask questions later" response.

What really happened is that over the past two years the left earned - with cause - a huge amount of intense hatred, and made a huge number of lifelong enemies who are fully committed to the "fuck you, forever" program. Since the war is perceived as Biden's / the left's issue, that's the response it gets. If they were smart, they'd be concerned about that, not trying to laugh it off.

I'm not trying to laugh it off. I'm merely pointing out that the "biolab" stuff is a super-duper old tried and true ploy straight out of the Cold War era KGB playbook. Shockingly an old KGB hand in Putin dusted that chestnut off to allow him to fulfill his fantasies of being a modern day Peter the Great.

An the mental contortions it takes to make Country A invading Country B a right/left issue is fairly extreme.

And I still think it is hilarious that the same folks that worship at the altar of Reagan and his policy of being a beacon for democracy and a defender of the free world can look at the current scenario and be like "hold on. What about the Nazi biolabs?" If you can't see how that is freaking funny as all get out...

[willy]

...............................................sni p...............................................

And I still think it is hilarious that the same folks that worship at the altar of Reagan and his policy of being a beacon for democracy and a defender of the free world can look at the current scenario and be like "hold on. What about the Nazi biolabs?" If you can't see how that is freaking funny as all get out...

Well, lets not forget who's freedom Reagan was defending and who's he wasn't.

Did David Brooks Tell the Full Story About Reagan's Neshoba County Fair Visit?

.................................................. ................................

Throughout his career, Reagan benefited from subtly divisive appeals to whites who resented efforts in the 1960s and 70s to reverse historic patterns of racial discrimination. He did it in 1966 when he campaigned for the California governorship by denouncing open housing and civil rights laws. He did it in 1976 when he tried to beat out Gerald Ford for the Republican nomination by attacking welfare in subtly racist terms. And he did it in Neshoba County in 1980.

Reagan knew that southern Republicans were making racial appeals to win over conservative southern Democrats, and he was a willing participant. Despite what Brooks claims, it’s no slur to hold Reagan accountable for the choice that he made. Neither is it mere partisanship to try to think seriously about the complex ways that white racism has shaped modern conservative politics.

https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/44535

[steelreserve]

I'm not trying to laugh it off. I'm merely pointing out that the "biolab" stuff is a super-duper old tried and true ploy straight out of the Cold War era KGB playbook. Shockingly an old KGB hand in Putin dusted that chestnut off to allow him to fulfill his fantasies of being a modern day Peter the Great.

An the mental contortions it takes to make Country A invading Country B a right/left issue is fairly extreme.

And I still think it is hilarious that the same folks that worship at the altar of Reagan and his policy of being a beacon for democracy and a defender of the free world can look at the current scenario and be like "hold on. What about the Nazi biolabs?" If you can't see how that is freaking funny as all get out...

It certainly is a strange state of affairs, I'll say that. The war shouldn't be a political thing at all if you ask me. But then, politics forced itself into many places where it was not welcome, so it's not entirely unexpected.

But really, when we're in a situation where even CNN is reduced to simply reporting unbiased news, it ought to be a clue that it's different from the same old, same old.

[willy]

But really, when we're in a situation where even CNN is reduced to simply reporting unbiased news, it ought to be a clue that it's different from the same old, same old.

I'm not sure we should assume that CNN's reporting on the war is unbiased. I don't assume it is.

[Fire Goodell]

Seems like Russia's military is a paper tiger, which isn't all that surprising. Any hint of anything that would be a challenge they're all like 'omg shut up we're gonna use nukes!'

[willy]

The 5 most powerful armies in the world according to Military.com and Global Firepower in Feb. 2020. Russia is ranked second only to us. So, yes they have nukes, but their Army itself clearly doesn't belong in the number two spot in the world.


"The 5 Most Powerful Armies in the World

Greg Norman




The U.S., Global Firepower says, is the "undisputed" top military power in the world. (iStock)Battlefields are constantly evolving, leading countries around the world to pump hundreds of billions of dollars each year into their armed forces in a race to develop the most advanced training, technology and weaponry.
As of 2020, Global Firepower, a website that tracks military strength, says the following five armies are the most powerful, based on a rank given to them after looking at how they compare in categories “ranging from military might and financials to logistical capability and geography”

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...ies-world.html

[steelreserve]

Seems like Russia's military is a paper tiger, which isn't all that surprising. Any hint of anything that would be a challenge they're all like 'omg shut up we're gonna use nukes!'

Which just might work, because we're also seeing that the role the West wants to play on the global stage is roughly that of a homeowners' association. That's kind of become their specialty. Meanwhile, any streetwise thug knows he can just do whatever he wants while they sit around wringing their hands and hoping that changing the bylaws will convince the Crips to move off their turf.

At this point, I think the chances are pretty low that Russia is actually going to use any nukes. All you hear out of Putin is "We'll treat this as an act of war," and "we'll treat that as an act of war," about anything from sanctions to military aid, and what happens? Nothing. It's all an act to produce more hand-wringing, because he knows you can beat NATO with words. They'll instantly cave and go "omg World War 3!" Just like the homeowners' association will stick their hands up and beg for order as soon as you flash a knife at them.

[willy]

Which just might work, because we're also seeing that the role the West wants to play on the global stage is roughly that of a homeowners' association. That's kind of become their specialty. Meanwhile, any streetwise thug knows he can just do whatever he wants while they sit around wringing their hands and hoping that changing the bylaws will convince the Crips to move off their turf.

At this point, I think the chances are pretty low that Russia is actually going to use any nukes. All you hear out of Putin is "We'll treat this as an act of war," and "we'll treat that as an act of war," about anything from sanctions to military aid, and what happens? Nothing. It's all an act to produce more hand-wringing, because he knows you can beat NATO with words. They'll instantly cave and go "omg World War 3!" Just like the homeowners' association will stick their hands up and beg for order as soon as you flash a knife at them.

Meaningless post and you WERE doing so well regarding this conflict.

[Orion]

[Fire Goodell]

partly true, though I'd say oligarch -> entrepreneur isn't accurate. majority of business startups fail, oligarchs I'd say are more akin to trust fund babies who been handed a silver spoon since birth and were destined to be billionaires due to the genetic lottery more than anything else.

[steelreserve]

partly true, though I'd say oligarch -> entrepreneur isn't accurate. majority of business startups fail, oligarchs I'd say are more akin to trust fund babies who been handed a silver spoon since birth and were destined to be billionaires due to the genetic lottery more than anything else.

Do they even have that in Russia? Nobody there inherited shit, it was whoever managed to loot what was left of the USSR, or gain approval to be the state-sanctioned monopolist or a partner in a state-run enterprise. So basically the politically well-connected. We're not quite at that point yet, but we're getting there!