Vikings Week

[DesertSteel]

this should make Moujow excited ..............................

I'd be thrilled with either in 2022.

[Mojouw]

this should make Moujow excited ..............................

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Sure. Let's give up draft picks and cap space on mediocre veteran QBs who are in the process of getting their current franchise's coach and GM fired in one case and are viewed so underwhelmingly that everyone expects the new regime to get rid of them as soon as possible in the other.

Everyone (media mostly) keeps letting this myth that "surrounding a stable crappy veteran QB with all the support pieces" is a viable "championship path". Then GM's (mostly on crappy teams) spout this nonsense and we all let them get away with it.

The Vikings are the most recent example. Defense. Running game. Oodles of weapons for the exceedingly average QB to try and get the ball to. Check. All of that. Check and check. And the result has been basically a version of the 2019 Steelers with better counting stats. But guess what it didn't add up to? A real championship contender. At all. Not even close.

Get and average QB and surround him with talent = championship is a lie that GMs without real ideas on franchises fed up with rebuilding tell everyone to save their jobs. And we keep believing it. Despite the fact that the last time it worked was two decades ago. And that only worked ONCE...despite the non-QB parts of that recipe sticking around for a long time.

You all know that I almost always try and see the logic behind the moves a team makes. But if the 2022 Steelers trade anything besides a bag of kicking tees for some never was of an also ran veteran QB option and start talking about how they are trying to win a SB in 2022...I might be out. Down that path lies wasted cap space lavished on players that will finally "unlock" the latent "potential" of the QB. Wasted draft picks on gimmicky offensive weapons. And diddly poo to show for it.

I'm going to go beat my head against a wall. It is more useful than this "model" for building a roster.

[DesertSteel]

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Sure. Let's give up draft picks and cap space on mediocre veteran QBs who are in the process of getting their current franchise's coach and GM fired in one case and are viewed so underwhelmingly that everyone expects the new regime to get rid of them as soon as possible in the other.

Everyone (media mostly) keeps letting this myth that "surrounding a stable crappy veteran QB with all the support pieces" is a viable "championship path". Then GM's (mostly on crappy teams) spout this nonsense and we all let them get away with it.

The Vikings are the most recent example. Defense. Running game. Oodles of weapons for the exceedingly average QB to try and get the ball to. Check. All of that. Check and check. And the result has been basically a version of the 2019 Steelers with better counting stats. But guess what it didn't add up to? A real championship contender. At all. Not even close.

Get and average QB and surround him with talent = championship is a lie that GMs without real ideas on franchises fed up with rebuilding tell everyone to save their jobs. And we keep believing it. Despite the fact that the last time it worked was two decades ago. And that only worked ONCE...despite the non-QB parts of that recipe sticking around for a long time.

You all know that I almost always try and see the logic behind the moves a team makes. But if the 2022 Steelers trade anything besides a bag of kicking tees for some never was of an also ran veteran QB option and start talking about how they are trying to win a SB in 2022...I might be out. Down that path lies wasted cap space lavished on players that will finally "unlock" the latent "potential" of the QB. Wasted draft picks on gimmicky offensive weapons. And diddly poo to show for it.

I'm going to go beat my head against a wall. It is more useful than this "model" for building a roster.

Cousins last three seasons (including this one):
2019 Passer rating: 107.4 TD/INT 26/6
2020 Passer rating: 105.0 TD/INT 35/13
2021 Passer rating: 106.3 TD/INT 25/3

Carr last three seasons (including this one):
2019 Passer rating: 100.8 TD/INT 21/8
2020 Passer rating: 101.4 TD/INT 27/9
2021 Passer rating: 96.7 TD/INT 17/9

You really need to look up the definitions of "crappy" and "mediocre."

Some coaches are bad coaches and need fired. Some GMs can't build a team and need fired.

Based on my observations, I'd rather have Cousins, but I'll take Carr. I'm also drafting a QB to develop.

[Born2Steel]

The Vikings just drafted Kellen Mond and Kirk Cousins will carry a huge price tag next season. They may just let him walk.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesot...-cousins-9915/

[Dwinsgames]

Get and average QB and surround him with talent = championship is a lie that GMs without real ideas on franchises fed up with rebuilding tell everyone to save their jobs. And we keep believing it. Despite the fact that the last time it worked was two decades ago. And that only worked ONCE...

well actually its worked a few times ...

Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Joe Flacco

but I get your point and for the most part agree .....

While you can win with "just a guy" under center odds of doing so without getting a few breaks and playing pretty much mistake free football for several games in a row during the playoffs and the SB ... it becomes fairly unlikely

[Mojouw]

Cousins last three seasons (including this one):
2019 Passer rating: 107.4 TD/INT 26/6
2020 Passer rating: 105.0 TD/INT 35/13
2021 Passer rating: 106.3 TD/INT 25/3

Carr last three seasons (including this one):
2019 Passer rating: 100.8 TD/INT 21/8
2020 Passer rating: 101.4 TD/INT 27/9
2021 Passer rating: 96.7 TD/INT 17/9

You really need to look up the definitions of "crappy" and "mediocre."

Some coaches are bad coaches and need fired. Some GMs can't build a team and need fired.

Based on my observations, I'd rather have Cousins, but I'll take Carr. I'm also drafting a QB to develop.

Kirk Cousins is the definition of a mediocre QBs that can not elevate their teams. Everything has to be perfect for it to work. One little mistake, and it all spirals to crap.

"When trailing entering the final frame, Cousins is now 2-26-1 after the loss to Detroit. When leading, he’s 27-1. Cousins isn’t a quarterback who elevates; he is a quarterback who maintains." -- https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2021/12/8/22823546/minnesota-vikings-kirk-cousins-mike-zimmer-rick-spielman

Carr...I have less of a problem with. But he isn't changing the fortunes of a roster. It isn't like you sign Carr and look around and start figuring out where the parades should end.

If the team is drafting a QB...I would rather play that draft pick or Rudolphaskins in 22.

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well actually its worked a few times ...

Brad Johnson
Trent Dilfer
Joe Flacco

but I get your point and for the most part agree .....

While you can win with "just a guy" under center odds of doing so without getting a few breaks and playing pretty much mistake free football for several games in a row during the playoffs and the SB ... it becomes fairly unlikely

Flacco had one of the most unbelievable playoff runs of all time according to the stats. In those playoffs, he played like an elite QB.

Didn't Johnson put up All Pro numbers when he won in TB? I can't remember. I might be confusing him with Gannon.

It is still a plan to fail far more often than not.

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In 121 career starts...Cousins is two games under .500.

He has only had 13 comebacks.

[Mojouw]

From: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2020/10...usins-contract

• Kirk Cousins passer rating against sub .500 teams: 121.9
• Kirk Cousins passer rating against above .500 teams: 73.3

[DesertSteel]

And what record would Cousins have if he played for a winning franchise instead of the Redskins or Vikings? I’m not saying he’s a hall of famer, but if you think we’ll do better the next couple years you’re fooling yourself.

I keep forgetting that football is an individual sport.

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From: https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2020/10...usins-contract

• Kirk Cousins passer rating against sub .500 teams: 121.9
• Kirk Cousins passer rating against above .500 teams: 73.3

It’s called confirmation bias.

[Mojouw]

And what record would Cousins have if he played for a winning franchise instead of the Redskins or Vikings? I’m not saying he’s a hall of famer, but if you think we’ll do better the next couple years you’re fooling yourself.

I keep forgetting that football is an individual sport.

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It’s called confirmation bias.

You can not be a winning franchise with Kirk Cousins as your QB. Best case is that you hang out in the 7-9 wins "Jeff Fisher Zone" for ever and ever.

The Vikings have surrounded Cousins with EVERYTHING that a team should need to succeed.

1. High end defensive play for large stretches of his tenure.
2. Amazing RB, WR, and TE options.
3. Solid to pretty good offensive lines.
4. A scheme that is catered precisely to him and is well known for making QBs look good (see Mullens, Nick and Beathard, CJ)

Yet...Cousins mysteriously doesn't succeed....

[DesertSteel]

You can not be a winning franchise with Kirk Cousins as your QB. Best case is that you hang out in the 7-9 wins "Jeff Fisher Zone" for ever and ever.

The Vikings have surrounded Cousins with EVERYTHING that a team should need to succeed.

1. High end defensive play for large stretches of his tenure.
2. Amazing RB, WR, and TE options.
3. Solid to pretty good offensive lines.
4. A scheme that is catered precisely to him and is well known for making QBs look good (see Mullens, Nick and Beathard, CJ)

Yet...Cousins mysteriously doesn't succeed....

Since you’ve watched him so much, tell me what he’s doing to lose these games. Do you think it’s easy to have a 25/3 TD/INT after 12 games?

The main point is that you’ve either jinxed the Steelers tomorrow night or I’m gonna look like an idiot when he throws 4 INTs.

[Dwinsgames]

You can not be a winning franchise with Kirk Cousins as your QB. Best case is that you hang out in the 7-9 wins "Jeff Fisher Zone" for ever and ever.

The Vikings have surrounded Cousins with EVERYTHING that a team should need to succeed.

1. High end defensive play for large stretches of his tenure.
2. Amazing RB, WR, and TE options.
3. Solid to pretty good offensive lines.
4. A scheme that is catered precisely to him and is well known for making QBs look good (see Mullens, Nick and Beathard, CJ)

Yet...Cousins mysteriously doesn't succeed....

Keenum got 13 wins in that system with arguably less talent around him

[Mojouw]

Since you’ve watched him so much, tell me what he’s doing to lose these games. Do you think it’s easy to have a 25/3 TD/INT after 12 games?

The main point is that you’ve either jinxed the Steelers tomorrow night or I’m gonna look like an idiot when he throws 4 INTs.

I have totally jinxed them. Cousins is going to go thermo-nuclear tomorrow.

My main problem with him is that he totally fails to challenge good or better defenses. He checks down to a maddening degree. I can't find the metric right now...but he is comically low on YPA on critical third downs.

He just can't make difference making plays against good defenses. I mean this is a guy that lined up under the guard a few weeks ago in a crunch time drive before it fizzled out.

Cousins plays in a ludicrously QB friendly system surrounded by staggering amounts of talent...yet...meh? I mean versions of the ONLY offense Cousins succeeded in (they had to change the Vikings system to an off-shoot of the Shanahan offense Cousins had in Washington to make it work in Minnesota) have made just awful QBs look like maybe they should be playing somewhere...

Again...the fact that he throws for oodles of yards and dozens of TDs as the Steelers look totally unable to stop him will not change my opinion. At all.

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Keenum got 13 wins in that system with arguably less talent around him

Exactly!

[DesertSteel]

Keenum got 13 wins in that system with arguably less talent around him

Yet no one around here wanted him either.

[DesertSteel]

My rankings would put both Cousins and Carr around 12th-14th overall. There’s no way we’ll do better than that unless we get Rodgers or Wilson. Plenty of people around here wouldn’t even be happy with them. I’m a realist when it comes to QBs. If Rudolph starts, he’ll be the 32nd best starting quarterback.

[NCSteeler]

Since you’ve watched him so much, tell me what he’s doing to lose these games. Do you think it’s easy to have a 25/3 TD/INT after 12 games?

The main point is that you’ve either jinxed the Steelers tomorrow night or I’m gonna look like an idiot when he throws 4 INTs.

I'll say this about his stats watching the fantasy football side.
Cousins very well be the Willie Parker of QBs...... Take away the big games.

Haha. He does tend to have huge games and clunkers

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[Mojouw]

My rankings would put both Cousins and Carr around 12th-14th overall. There’s no way we’ll do better than that unless we get Rodgers or Wilson. Plenty of people around here wouldn’t even be happy with them. I’m a realist when it comes to QBs. If Rudolph starts, he’ll be the 32nd best starting quarterback.

I would rather have 1-2 years of the 32nd starting QB on the way to another top end QB than 5 years of the middle of the pack.

[DesertSteel]

I would rather have 1-2 years of the 32nd starting QB on the way to another top end QB than 5 years of the middle of the pack.

Obviously, not me. I also don’t think the Steelers share your philosophy of sucking for a couple of years for the greater good.

[Mojouw]

Obviously, not me. I also don’t think the Steelers share your philosophy of sucking for a couple of years for the greater good.

I figure they don't. Everything they have done to date indicates they are going to act like they are going for a deep playoff run each season.

And I think it is a "bad" plan in that it is highly unlikely to achieve the desired result and set the timeline for sustainable success back further in the long run.

Who knows? They could be the one in a hundred or whatever that pulls it off...

[DesertSteel]

Either way you do it, getting a franchise quarterback is a crapshoot. Luck is the greatest factor, unfortunately.

[Mojouw]

Either way you do it, getting a franchise quarterback is a crapshoot. Luck is the greatest factor, unfortunately.

I'm not sure I buy that "luck" is a big of a factor as we all think it is.

I think it is an honest and ruthless self-evaluation of your franchise versus the available QB options in any given 2 year period.

Is there a guy that fits your existing strengths and doesn't exaggerate a weakness? For instance, no point in pairing a pop-gun armed QB with an offense built to run vertical routes. Or no point in putting an immobile guy behind a bad line. Other examples abound.

If not...then will there be an option next year? Can you "wait" a year and focus on strengthening other areas of your roster in advance of getting a guy that will fit into what you are good at and what you want to do? Buffalo seems to be a good example of this with Josh Allen. They built an environment to have him succeed and then he grew into it.

If none of the available or anticipated options appear to fit what your roster situation is...are you willing to adapt and change the system for one of the guys? If so...then go get him. If not...don't try and fit a square peg into a round hole. Previous Eagles staff didn't seem to do this with Hurts...current staff has. Same with Tua in Miami. They went and got skill position guys that make up for Tua's lack of an NFL caliber deep ball.

Now, much of this goes out the window if your franchise is just too talent deficient across the board. But that isn't the situation in Pittsburgh. They have a chance to align the system, the QB, and the complementary pieces into a unified whole quicker than most. Assuming they are willing to be ruthless honest about their strengths and weaknesses, remove hubris from the discussion (no...well...WE can fix this guy nonsense), and nail their scouting.

[Mojouw]

But enough of me rambling and ranting. No one but me needs to hear that!

What we need to talk about is how most of us are out here living some version of normal life and Shoes is living in a gosh darn fairytale postcard. Good for you!

[Rotorhead]

Back on the topic, looks like Cook is going to play, that is no good considering how poorly our defense is at stopping the run recently.

[j-d-s]

I wouldn't want us to get Cousins either. Better to tank a year and draft a franchise QB hopeful prospect. Carr on the other hand, I would like, I think he's way better than Cousins.

In any case we're gonna have to upgrade the O-Line massively (ideally getting Munchak back as O-Line coach), because it doesn't really matter who your QB is if he's constantly sacked.

[Steeler-in-west]

Back on the topic, looks like Cook is going to play, that is no good considering how poorly our defense is at stopping the run recently.

Its the inside line backers. Vince retired at the wrong time (maybe right for him)

[tube517]

https://www.steelers.com/news/steele...PcqiUqtpBth6H0

The Steelers elevated offensive linemen Rashaad Coward and Chaz Green to the Active/Inactive Roster for tonight's game against the Minnesota Vikings.

[Rotorhead]

Its the inside line backers. Vince retired at the wrong time (maybe right for him)

Maybe Adams can help fix that going forward

[NCSteeler]

Sure you don't want to see what cousins can do?

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[Fire Goodell]

Sure you don't want to see what cousins can do?

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he shoulda had a TD on that drive, WR dropped a ball that hit him in the hands

[pepsyman1]

Wow....Ben squeezed that one in

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These guys are ALL idiots....they just don't get it. They think they can just behave any way they want and their won't be any consequence

[Fire Goodell]

fkin claypool was that necessary?