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Thread: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

  1. #61
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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Ok. Let's say all that is right and Ryan Clark isn't a biased observer for his old QB...how to explain the ones where he has time, sets his feet, and still throws some combination of a flutterball, a moonball, or is poor in his ball placement (inside versus outside shoulder, etc)?

    They changed almost everything about the offense, and it is still not good. At what point do you blame the QB? The evidence is before our eyes.

    Also, one could ask why is there so much pressure? Is it because offenses basically laugh at the passing "attack" and are playing everyone on top of the line of scrimmage. I regularly saw the Raiders with both safeties and both CBs well inside the "box". I often counted 9,10, and even 11 man boxes from the Raiders. Say that 3 of those guys are obviously covering WRs...that is still 7-8 guys for 5 o linemen to sort through. I think it might help if the QB could be a enough of a "big play" threat to back some of those guys off and let the offensive line breath a bit.

    There are multiple other QBs across the league that play behind suspect and leaky offensive lines and they manage to connect enough to make defenses line up with at least SOME deep guys.

    I'm not saying that Ben is playing lights out. What I'm saying is that there are things going on that contribute to uneven play, and some issues with the OL that are crushing to an offense.

    I don't know why Ben has to suck or be finished as an NFL quarterback to many, or still be elite to many. He is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Also, you are just mentioning Ryan Clark, when it was Rex Ryan making the statement? And for the record, Ryan Clark has always been hard on Ben.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I'm not saying that Ben is playing lights out. What I'm saying is that there are things going on that contribute to uneven play, and some issues with the OL that are crushing to an offense.

    I don't know why Ben has to suck or be finished as an NFL quarterback to many, or still be elite to many. He is probably somewhere in the middle.

    Also, you are just mentioning Ryan Clark, when it was Rex Ryan making the statement? And for the record, Ryan Clark has always been hard on Ben.
    And why does the offensive line struggles have to be causing the poor QB play instead of caused by it?

    Star players get excuses made for them. Media figures are well known for this.

    The excuse making needs to stop. This is now a pretty large sample size that says it isn't getting better but worse.

    But Rex and Ryan have forgotten more about football then I will ever know. I'd sure feel better if someone analyzed some film and showed how it's even decent/average QB play.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    And why does the offensive line struggles have to be causing the poor QB play instead of caused by it?

    Star players get excuses made for them. Media figures are well known for this.

    The excuse making needs to stop. This is now a pretty large sample size that says it isn't getting better but worse.

    But Rex and Ryan have forgotten more about football then I will ever know. I'd sure feel better if someone analyzed some film and showed how it's even decent/average QB play.

    Being a quarterback and having to make throws down the field when the routes haven't had time to develop doesn't work. Your options are to make short throws, dump it off to a back, release the ball ahead of schedule and estimate where the receivers will be because the timing of the play is screwed, throw it away, try to move and buy time, or take a sack.

    It's hard to explain to people that have never played the position how difficult it is to operate from the pocket when you don't have time to run plays in the time frame they are designed and practiced over and over. It ain't easy.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Agreed with the above, Ben just can’t run around and evade the pass rush like he used to. He’s also not as accurate throwing on the run like he used to be. I hope the line gets better and can give him better protection before he gets injured.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    Being a quarterback and having to make throws down the field when the routes haven't had time to develop doesn't work. Your options are to make short throws, dump it off to a back, release the ball ahead of schedule and estimate where the receivers will be because the timing of the play is screwed, throw it away, try to move and buy time, or take a sack.

    It's hard to explain to people that have never played the position how difficult it is to operate from the pocket when you don't have time to run plays in the time frame they are designed and practiced over and over. It ain't easy.
    I'm not disagreeing with that.

    But why are teams able to get away with overloading the LOS and only defending part of the field?

    That's not helping the line hold up.

    I believe you could put Ben behind 5 dominant offensive lineman and he still wouldn't get it done.

    I've looked and I haven't found a detailed breakdown either way. I'd be interested in seeing one.

    I guess my theory goes that if start making ANY plays over the middle, let alone the deep middle, you'd walk those safeties back. Maybe spread the LBs out. Less guys for the line to worry about. Getting a few guys out of the box might help the run game.

    The o oline is terrible and Ben has no time narrative still doesn't account for the throws where Ben gets to set his feet, isn't pressured, and it's still a bad throw.

    I wish I could screenshot the games, would help to contextualize this discussion.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    And why does the offensive line struggles have to be causing the poor QB play instead of caused by it?

    Star players get excuses made for them. Media figures are well known for this.

    The excuse making needs to stop. This is now a pretty large sample size that says it isn't getting better but worse.

    But Rex and Ryan have forgotten more about football then I will ever know. I'd sure feel better if someone analyzed some film and showed how it's even decent/average QB play.
    Maybe, like some have said, it’s more than just one thing or another. It’s not like it would be strange to be a combination of a lot of things…

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Maybe, like some have said, it’s more than just one thing or another. It’s not like it would be strange to be a combination of a lot of things…
    Sure. But the "just need a better o line and running game" and this will be a top X offense needs to stop.

    The ceiling is something on par with the Vikings or some other benchmark for low end of average.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    I will say that Ben’s time of “holding the ball way too long” need to stop…now. He took a hellacious shot in that game. One more like that could end his season. It hurt to watch!

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with that.

    But why are teams able to get away with overloading the LOS and only defending part of the field?

    That's not helping the line hold up.

    I believe you could put Ben behind 5 dominant offensive lineman and he still wouldn't get it done.

    I've looked and I haven't found a detailed breakdown either way. I'd be interested in seeing one.

    I guess my theory goes that if start making ANY plays over the middle, let alone the deep middle, you'd walk those safeties back. Maybe spread the LBs out. Less guys for the line to worry about. Getting a few guys out of the box might help the run game.

    The o oline is terrible and Ben has no time narrative still doesn't account for the throws where Ben gets to set his feet, isn't pressured, and it's still a bad throw.

    I wish I could screenshot the games, would help to contextualize this discussion.


    When defenses blitz, it's the quarterback's responsibility to read blitz, make protection changes pre-snap, audible to a better play if there is enough time, identify free rushers and go to his hot reads, or take a deep shot if protection is there.

    He isn't doing enough in those situations IMO. Teams crowd the LOS, but haven't been needing to blitz that often. They watch for the handoff then drop into coverage while receivers are pressed at the LOS to disrupt the timing of routes and give the rushers more time to get to the QB.

    Of course it's a combination of looks and reads with changing coverages and techniques, but I think defenses are getting great pressure with mostly four rushers. That allows them to have more players in coverage, and the lack of protection and time for the QB means defenders only have to stick to their receivers foe a short period of time. It's a recipe for shitty offense when defenses aren't getting gashed in the run game to soften them up.

    Again, I'm not absolving Ben from any blame. I think he needs to be better in some situations, and it would be nice if the OC could scheme guys open more often and the OL play would improve a bit.

    I still believe that the offense will get better as the OL improves provided they stay healthy.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    The Bengals will replicate the exact same blueprint scheme the Raiders, Bills, and everyone else has done. It will continue until the Offense figures out an adjustment to stop it. Teams have clearly shown they have no respect for Ben's ability to beat them. I don't think Ben has become football dumb overnight. I think he can see what the Defenses are doing. The league has caught on to the Offense and so far they have proven unable to adjust and beat it.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    When defenses blitz, it's the quarterback's responsibility to read blitz, make protection changes pre-snap, audible to a better play if there is enough time, identify free rushers and go to his hot reads, or take a deep shot if protection is there.

    He isn't doing enough in those situations IMO. Teams crowd the LOS, but haven't been needing to blitz that often. They watch for the handoff then drop into coverage while receivers are pressed at the LOS to disrupt the timing of routes and give the rushers more time to get to the QB.

    Of course it's a combination of looks and reads with changing coverages and techniques, but I think defenses are getting great pressure with mostly four rushers. That allows them to have more players in coverage, and the lack of protection and time for the QB means defenders only have to stick to their receivers foe a short period of time. It's a recipe for shitty offense when defenses aren't getting gashed in the run game to soften them up.

    Again, I'm not absolving Ben from any blame. I think he needs to be better in some situations, and it would be nice if the OC could scheme guys open more often and the OL play would improve a bit.

    I still believe that the offense will get better as the OL improves provided they stay healthy.
    OK. Say the Defense Does 1 and the proper offensive counter-move is Y. But your QB is physically incapable of doing Y. So you can't stay with your original play (X) and you can't shift to the "best" alternative. So you are left with Z. Z is not a great idea but not a terrible one either. The problem is the defense knows Z exists. And Z is a 3 yard crossing route. They are totally willing to give you that. They know you have to hit Z 12+ times to score points on a given drive. They don't figure you can do that.

    Ben is directing an offense that can't pivot to Y (something deeper and over the middle) so is left running the original X play into the teeth of a defense ready for it or pivoting to some low-stakes Y alternative that really doesn't do much for you.

    That is why I think that improved o line play doesn't get this team very far. The QB can not execute the plays needed to make defenses change.

    This then cascades to the to other side of the ball. The opposing team can get greedy with their own offensive playcalling. They are pretty sure you can't compete in a track meet with them. Might be lucky to put up three scores. So, they can take "big" chances. if they have to punt...so what? Your offense is such a massive effort that you likely won't convert that many drives into points. At the same time, your own defense is trying to win the game on every play. They know they can't let anything through. Two TDs might be more than enough to get them beat. So now you cheat. Take a step that way or hesitate rotating over. Gamble that you've guessed right and get to the ball or make a play in the backfield. But you are wrong...and you get beat for a score. The cycle gets worse.

    This is going to be the 2021 Steelers season until the QB can help make the offense back teams the heck off.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Ben is directing an offense that can't pivot to Y (something deeper and over the middle) so is left running the original X play into the teeth of a defense ready for it or pivoting to some low-stakes Y alternative that really doesn't do much for you.
    X and Z can work even if the defense sees it coming by the receiver just putting up herculean efforts to make something happen anyway, and that for years is what the Steelers have been banking on. They can literally do whatever they wanted on Offense because their raw talent at the skill positions were just so good.

    Except now, there is no top-flight receiver like a Hines Ward or Antonio Brown to just simply kick the ass of the defender across from him. Brown would make incredible and WTF catches nearly every week. All Ben had to do was get it near him and more often than not Brown would find a way to come down with it. He was that good. Brown would draw double teams which opened up the rest of the receivers.

    Now while we have some decent receivers, we don't have an gamechanger like Antonio Brown to draw away coverages. Now the Offense actually has to do a little more work and the QB and receivers have to pick it up. So far no one has been able to. We all saw firsthand what happened with a Post-Brown Ben in 2019. He was just as uninspiring and putrid as he is now. We all chalked it up to the arm injury, when the truth is Antonio Brown covered over a lot of glaring warts in the Offense, which was there in as early as 2018. They tried the smoke and mirrors in 2020 to hide the issues, then Defenses caught onto the act.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    OK. Say the Defense Does 1 and the proper offensive counter-move is Y. But your QB is physically incapable of doing Y. So you can't stay with your original play (X) and you can't shift to the "best" alternative. So you are left with Z. Z is not a great idea but not a terrible one either. The problem is the defense knows Z exists. And Z is a 3 yard crossing route. They are totally willing to give you that. They know you have to hit Z 12+ times to score points on a given drive. They don't figure you can do that.

    Ben is directing an offense that can't pivot to Y (something deeper and over the middle) so is left running the original X play into the teeth of a defense ready for it or pivoting to some low-stakes Y alternative that really doesn't do much for you.

    That is why I think that improved o line play doesn't get this team very far. The QB can not execute the plays needed to make defenses change.

    This then cascades to the to other side of the ball. The opposing team can get greedy with their own offensive playcalling. They are pretty sure you can't compete in a track meet with them. Might be lucky to put up three scores. So, they can take "big" chances. if they have to punt...so what? Your offense is such a massive effort that you likely won't convert that many drives into points. At the same time, your own defense is trying to win the game on every play. They know they can't let anything through. Two TDs might be more than enough to get them beat. So now you cheat. Take a step that way or hesitate rotating over. Gamble that you've guessed right and get to the ball or make a play in the backfield. But you are wrong...and you get beat for a score. The cycle gets worse.

    This is going to be the 2021 Steelers season until the QB can help make the offense back teams the heck off.
    There you go blaming only the QB. This has been the offense for many seasons…a QB that’s deteriorating isn’t the only problem. Lol. With a good O-Line and good receivers, it has worked. For years Ben has been chucking the ball up and out of bounds. That’s nothing new and, surprisingly, last season his pass on target percentage over 30 yards was only .5% worse than Patrick Mahomes. He was at 76.4%. Leaders being Aaron Rodgers and Kirk Cousins at just over 81%.

    Ben’s not the only problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    If you can not see the stark difference between the ball 2020-2021 Ben throws compared to like even 2017-2018 Ben...then I don't know what to tell you. It used to be out on time, on target (usually where ONLY his WR could make an amazing play on the ball to speak to Edman's point), and with pace.

    Now it is late, with little zip, and is placed all over the map - giving everyone a shot at it.

    Watch other teams. QB play is all that really separates them. Good QB play covers up whatever other roster and schemes sins you may be making.

    Again...put Ben behind a concrete bunker and it still doesn't work.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    If you can not see the stark difference between the ball 2020-2021 Ben throws compared to like even 2017-2018 Ben...then I don't know what to tell you. It used to be out on time, on target (usually where ONLY his WR could make an amazing play on the ball to speak to Edman's point), and with pace.

    Now it is late, with little zip, and is placed all over the map - giving everyone a shot at it.

    Watch other teams. QB play is all that really separates them. Good QB play covers up whatever other roster and schemes sins you may be making.

    Again...put Ben behind a concrete bunker and it still doesn't work.
    After the Steelers game ended Sunday, I made a point to watch the QB play in the other nationally televised games that were on TV (Dallas/LA Chargers, Chiefs/Ravens, and Detroit/Green Bay). There are obviously some premier QBs across these teams, but even Goff last night and Lamar with the Ravens got the ball out on time and with zip. Their passes clearly looked stronger than the ones Ben has been throwing across last season and now. Goff in particular placed some balls on intermediate routes and downfield into tight windows, on-time, and with velocity so that it got there ahead of collapsing defenders.

    Ben's throws just look completely weak compared to what you mentioned with his 2017-2018 seasons.

    I feel like there is always an excuse with the Steelers and their offensive play.........whether it is a new offense that is going to take time to gel, or a new o-line breaking in, or the receivers are not that good.......as I see too many other QBs that walk into brand new situations and play fairly well right away. For example, Teddy Bridgewater with the Broncos so far this year, Goff in Detroit, Darnold in Carolina. Ben is a 17 year vet that knows how to play QB in this league, just as Peyton Manning was in his final couple years with a new team in Denver when he struggled. The biggest reason for the declining QB play with the Steelers I think is the QB himself, just as it was with Manning in Denver.

    Having said this, I would love nothing more than Ben to prove me completely wrong and starting lighting it up again.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by dislocatedday View Post
    After the Steelers game ended Sunday, I made a point to watch the QB play in the other nationally televised games that were on TV (Dallas/LA Chargers, Chiefs/Ravens, and Detroit/Green Bay). There are obviously some premier QBs across these teams, but even Goff last night and Lamar with the Ravens got the ball out on time and with zip. Their passes clearly looked stronger than the ones Ben has been throwing across last season and now. Goff in particular placed some balls on intermediate routes and downfield into tight windows, on-time, and with velocity so that it got there ahead of collapsing defenders.

    Ben's throws just look completely weak compared to what you mentioned with his 2017-2018 seasons.

    I feel like there is always an excuse with the Steelers and their offensive play.........whether it is a new offense that is going to take time to gel, or a new o-line breaking in, or the receivers are not that good.......as I see too many other QBs that walk into brand new situations and play fairly well right away. For example, Teddy Bridgewater with the Broncos so far this year, Goff in Detroit, Darnold in Carolina. Ben is a 17 year vet that knows how to play QB in this league, just as Peyton Manning was in his final couple years with a new team in Denver when he struggled. The biggest reason for the declining QB play with the Steelers I think is the QB himself, just as it was with Manning in Denver.

    Having said this, I would love nothing more than Ben to prove me completely wrong and starting lighting it up again.
    I agree with this 100%.

    I also freely acknowledge that I am just a "self-taught" fan with little real knowledge of the game or how to play specific positions. I might be all wrong and I have staked out a strong position that I will not be able to walk back.

    But what are you gonna do? Just talking about what I think I see. Two weeks from now...always possible that it looks different.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    https://youtu.be/8YzXUXMSAvA

    this td pass looks like it has plenty of zip on it,

    I don’t know what to say, except maybe a few more games will make things clearer on Ben’s passing capabilities

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    you can analyze all you want. Father time has caught up with Ben. Unfortunately he’s arguably the best we got. I actually think Rudolph could win as many games if they both played 17. 8-9, possibly 9-8. They drafted Mason, gambled with Haskins Im thinking 10% chance of either guy becoming future QB. Unfortunately we are in the same predicament many teams go through, finding franchise QB. I give front office credit for addressing it but like Jets, Cardinals, Dolphins and most other teams it doesn’t always pan out first time, or second. It’s a rebuilding year most likely. We need to draft or find our Tannehill type guy who turns it around. Good news is we should have extra 25 mill or so next year if Ben doesn’t perform miracles

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Welp, according to the injury reports. Ben suffered a left pec injury.

    Premeditated excuse for future performances, an excuse for last week's performance, or an excuse from the organization to save face on Ben before sending him to the bench without actually benching him. We'll see what happens.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    If you can not see the stark difference between the ball 2020-2021 Ben throws compared to like even 2017-2018 Ben...then I don't know what to tell you. It used to be out on time, on target (usually where ONLY his WR could make an amazing play on the ball to speak to Edman's point), and with pace.

    Now it is late, with little zip, and is placed all over the map - giving everyone a shot at it.

    Watch other teams. QB play is all that really separates them. Good QB play covers up whatever other roster and schemes sins you may be making.

    Again...put Ben behind a concrete bunker and it still doesn't work.
    Is anyone arguing that Ben's arm isn't weaker? You can see it over the years. The balls out of bounds has been happening for a while now. It's not the only problem though. Put Tom Brady on this team...it doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Is anyone arguing that Ben's arm isn't weaker? It's not the only problem though. Put Tom Brady on this team...it doesn't work.
    You keep saying it doesn't work because they don't run good plays. But why don't they run those plays? I argue it's because the QB can't do some of them and won't do others.

    For the one drive they ran "Canada's offense" it looked great and they chugged right down the field.

    Everything has been blamed or changed but the QB.

    Other QBs make it work behind awful lines with no running game. We just watched Carr do it. Burrow does it somewhat and he's still figuring it all out.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    https://youtu.be/8YzXUXMSAvA

    this td pass looks like it has plenty of zip on it,

    I don’t know what to say, except maybe a few more games will make things clearer on Ben’s passing capabilities
    It is interesting you posted the video of that pass from the pre-season this year against Detroit. While I did not see that game, that was the play I saw on the highlights later that gave me hope and made me think Ben might have returned to pre-injury form. I agree that pass was a laser and thrown hard and in a great spot for Freiermuth to grab it where only he could get it.

    I have not really seen those types of passes so far this year in the regular season though, hence my concern with his arm.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    There is the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words.


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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by dislocatedday View Post
    It is interesting you posted the video of that pass from the pre-season this year against Detroit. While I did not see that game, that was the play I saw on the highlights later that gave me hope and made me think Ben might have returned to pre-injury form. I agree that pass was a laser and thrown hard and in a great spot for Freiermuth to grab it where only he could get it.

    I have not really seen those types of passes so far this year in the regular season though, hence my concern with his arm.
    I watched the last games highlights and noticed most of the bad - lifeless passes were when Ben wasn’t or couldn’t step into his throws. Like the interception - he had a defender right in his face and just heave it. Conversely most of his throws where he has time and steps into his throws they’re much better - faster and on target. I’m beginning to think it’s a combination of bad o line, Ben making some bad decisions and afraid to take a sack or hit and maybe some miscommunication with the wr’s. He also can’t avoid the rush like he used to or doesn’t have the same arm strength, but if he has time and can step into his throws he’s still got the strength and accuracy. I think a big question is will the O line improve enough before he gets killed - (is he already hurt with the pec problem?)

    Defense gets healthy and o line gets better and the team should start stacking up wins - hopefully

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You keep saying it doesn't work because they don't run good plays. But why don't they run those plays? I argue it's because the QB can't do some of them and won't do others.

    For the one drive they ran "Canada's offense" it looked great and they chugged right down the field.

    Everything has been blamed or changed but the QB.

    Other QBs make it work behind awful lines with no running game. We just watched Carr do it. Burrow does it somewhat and he's still figuring it all out.
    That’s one of the things I’ve said...yes. I’ve also said Ben isn’t as good as he used to be and said he’s part of the problem. I’ve also said that some of the receivers just don’t have the mind for the pro game. I’ve also said that the offensive line is an issue. I’ve also said that roster depth is an issue. I’ve never once said that it’s “only this or that”. I’ve also said it’s more than just one thing...and by the way, we are at week 2...not week 12 so there’s a lot of time and room for improvement.

    About the QBs, Carr hasn’t done it for years. He’s just strung two great games together. Jury is still out on Burrow. You stick either of those QBs on this team, not much will change...maybe they win 2 more games. Carr isn’t going to change DJ from cutting routes short or not picking up defensive cues. Burrow isn’t going to stop Chuks from collapsing on every play. Patrick Mahomes isn’t going to stop Eric Ebron from catching a first down conversion. Before you get all excited, we all know the team would be better with Mahomes...but even he can’t help Ebron catch a ball...that’s the point there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    That’s one of the things I’ve said...yes. I’ve also said Ben isn’t as good as he used to be and said he’s part of the problem. I’ve also said that some of the receivers just don’t have the mind for the pro game. I’ve also said that the offensive line is an issue. I’ve also said that roster depth is an issue. I’ve never once said that it’s “only this or that”. I’ve also said it’s more than just one thing...and by the way, we are at week 2...not week 12 so there’s a lot of time and room for improvement.

    About the QBs, Carr hasn’t done it for years. He’s just strung two great games together. Jury is still out on Burrow. You stick either of those QBs on this team, not much will change...maybe they win 2 more games. Carr isn’t going to change DJ from cutting routes short or not picking up defensive cues. Burrow isn’t going to stop Chuks from collapsing on every play. Patrick Mahomes isn’t going to stop Eric Ebron from catching a first down conversion. Before you get all excited, we all know the team would be better with Mahomes...but even he can’t help Ebron catch a ball...that’s the point there.


    I agree.

    You and I are openly stating that Ben isn't the same QB he was three years ago.

    We are saying that he can't do everything that he used to be able to do.

    We have both said he needs to play better.

    I've even broken down specifically what his responsibilities are,, what I think he could be doing better, and lay some blame on him....but posters here keep acting like we are nominating him for MVP.

    If people don't understand that Ben is getting rid of the ball faster than any quarterback ever has....EVER....and is still getting pummeled...I don't know how else to get the point across that there are other problems in play here that are contributing greatly to the offensive struggles.

    Remember how we had to listen to how fast Tom Brady and Peyton Manning get rid of the ball so you can't sack them? Ben has been releasing the ball faster than either of them EVER HAVE for a few years now, and he's getting hit constantly and taking sacks.

    Let that sink in for a second.

    We all saw Aaron Rodgers under intense pressure a couple weeks ago, and he looked like hot garbage.

    If you can't run the ball and you can't protect the quarterback, you can't do much on offense.

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    Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    That’s one of the things I’ve said...yes. I’ve also said Ben isn’t as good as he used to be and said he’s part of the problem. I’ve also said that some of the receivers just don’t have the mind for the pro game. I’ve also said that the offensive line is an issue. I’ve also said that roster depth is an issue. I’ve never once said that it’s “only this or that”. I’ve also said it’s more than just one thing...and by the way, we are at week 2...not week 12 so there’s a lot of time and room for improvement.

    About the QBs, Carr hasn’t done it for years. He’s just strung two great games together. Jury is still out on Burrow. You stick either of those QBs on this team, not much will change...maybe they win 2 more games. Carr isn’t going to change DJ from cutting routes short or not picking up defensive cues. Burrow isn’t going to stop Chuks from collapsing on every play. Patrick Mahomes isn’t going to stop Eric Ebron from catching a first down conversion. Before you get all excited, we all know the team would be better with Mahomes...but even he can’t help Ebron catch a ball...that’s the point there.
    There's no perfect roster. No perfect scheme. Good QBs make enough plays to piece it together and put points on the board. For a season plus two games, we've seen Ben unable to do that.

    The only time he looked effective was against the Browns prevent defense.

    Look at the Raiders game again. If you can find it. Multiple times he climbs the pocket. Good thing to avoid the rush. Smart. Then he double and on at least one triple clutches instead of turning it loose. I'd love to see the endzone view on those. Was no one open? Or was Ben too uncertain of his ability to fire one into a WR between the hashes? I know he used to make a living off that move. Now he doesn't.

    I've made it clear why I think that is.

    As to inexperienced and dumb WRs, how many careers did PRIME Ben make?

    It's him more than anything else. You could fix EVERYTHING else and it would still be a poor offense.

    FWIW, I enjoy the discussion.

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    A few more games for Ben, then All-in on Haskins, either we go 4-13 and pick top 5, or he can actually find his NFL self and we make it to playoffs.. In playoff, if we make it, we get another Insight as to weather Haskins is the real deal, or, he is not. If not, we focus on the draft. I am against doing a half hearted season with Rudolph, who i see as a back up qb mostly due to a lower ceiling than other options.

    One more thing, if we need a bridge qb, Garoppolo is my bet

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

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    Re: Week 2: Vegas Raiders

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    I watched the last games highlights and noticed most of the bad - lifeless passes were when Ben wasn’t or couldn’t step into his throws. Like the interception - he had a defender right in his face and just heave it. Conversely most of his throws where he has time and steps into his throws they’re much better - faster and on target. I’m beginning to think it’s a combination of bad o line, Ben making some bad decisions and afraid to take a sack or hit and maybe some miscommunication with the wr’s. He also can’t avoid the rush like he used to or doesn’t have the same arm strength, but if he has time and can step into his throws he’s still got the strength and accuracy. I think a big question is will the O line improve enough before he gets killed - (is he already hurt with the pec problem?)

    Defense gets healthy and o line gets better and the team should start stacking up wins - hopefully
    I have not gone back and re-watched these last two games, so I am sure there are things going on that I don't notice when watching the games in real time. I know some people here in the forums re-watch the games where you can see plays from all sorts of different camera angles ("All 22" on NFL Gamepass I think it is), so they likely have better insight into the other areas that are struggling. With so many of the passes being quick release short ones after the snap, it is sometimes hard to gauge whether the line is able to hold up in pass protection or not. It is entirely possible those plays are being called so often because the team's coaches know the line is not going to be able to consistently protect for more than 2 seconds.

    I'm curious for those who have watched the Oline in greater detail, are the bulk of the problems all across the line, or is it predominantly the right side with Okorafor and Turner?

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