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Thread: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

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    Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Behind a paywall, but good read if you can.

    Long story short, Ben seems to (his interview answers are always cryptic) acknowledge that his arm was weaker last season. Says he will have to see if there is improvement during this season.

    It’s an honest assessment and answer but not really brimming with optimism.

    I know I’m a broken record on this issue. But Ben himself seems to be inching towards acknowledging he was physically limited and it compromised his 2020 performance.

    Watching Brees and Rivers struggle last season and then retire, might be a reasonable barometer. Or, it’s a year out and Ben starts bombing away again…

    The reason I started this thread is that I feel that Ben is the key to the 2021 season. He plays well, skys the limit. If he plays like he did in the second half of last season…look out.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Not having the 32nd tank rushing attack should help that

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by vasteeler View Post
    Not having the 32nd tank rushing attack should help that
    How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

    I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    I guess it's a strong hint that 2021 may be his last season

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Behind a paywall, but good read if you can.

    Long story short, Ben seems to (his interview answers are always cryptic) acknowledge that his arm was weaker last season. Says he will have to see if there is improvement during this season.

    It’s an honest assessment and answer but not really brimming with optimism.

    I know I’m a broken record on this issue. But Ben himself seems to be inching towards acknowledging he was physically limited and it compromised his 2020 performance.

    Watching Brees and Rivers struggle last season and then retire, might be a reasonable barometer. Or, it’s a year out and Ben starts bombing away again…

    The reason I started this thread is that I feel that Ben is the key to the 2021 season. He plays well, skys the limit. If he plays like he did in the second half of last season…look out.
    If he starts off like that, fans will start chanting rudolph or haskins

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    His arm looked fine in the OTA’s

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    His arm looked fine in the OTA’s
    Looked good at the start of last season too

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season
    It is also possible it wasn’t as strong so soon after surgery. I had shoulder surgery last year January and it took a year to get it back to 100% so it would get fatigued so quickly. Ben had what, half that time?

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

    I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.

    a running game doesn't "FIX" this issues but what it does do is mask them to some degree because you are not as dependent on throwing it 40+ times a game ...

    throwing it 40+ times a game magnifies deficiencies ....

    lets try this analogy on for a moment if you will be so kind to indulge ....

    if I put a new scope on a rifle for hunting season and I start to sight it in and its shooting 1/2 to the right at 25 yards , then it is shooting an inch right at 50 , 2 inches at 100 , 6 inches at 300 ( or more ) the more you are asking from that rifle and scope the more deficient / inaccurate it seems to be ... but hey if a deer walks past at 25 yards that 1/2 to the right means basically nothing and the deer drops in its tracks with a well placed shot ( at worse he runs 40 yards and goes down ) ... point is magnification can make anything and everything worse ... the less emphasis the easier it is to mask a deficiency ...

    as a side note I am not proclaiming Ben is deficient , I think the Jury is still out he was a year removed from the game with a significant injury to recover from and rehab that said I believe it is reasonable he suffered fatigue from week 10ish on from not being back at full strength and over working that arm out of necessity because of the lack of a reliable running game and it normally takes 2 year to recover from significant injury to regain 100% of prior form ...

    I would also go on to say that Father time is undefeated and he has had yet another year to gnaw away at Bens arm ...

    what is the "correct answer"? I think its impossible to tell until its crystal clear and it is no longer a question but a statement of fact ...


    until then people will pass many hours on MSG boards and social media making proclamations based on flawed data and gut feelings and thats ok too ..its fun to talk about I suppose
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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

    I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.
    Because like anything else in life it's a lot easier to throw the ball harder and deeper if you aren't being asked to do it 50 times a game. Even young stud MLB pitchers lose control and speed on their pitches the longer a game goes and they have to throw EVERY play. So if you get a good balance and don't need to fire down field almost ALL game then reason is that come the 4th quarter you still have some gas left in the arm tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    it's possible he was hiding an injury, he wasn't the same late in the season
    I think he was still recovering from surgery. I mean he had three torn flexor tendons in his throwing elbow. Guys that have major surgery may be "able" to play in the following year but major surgery like those take a lot longer than that to heal (some never heal the same). Add to the fact his age and that makes it even harder.

    I'm in my 50's and grew up playing ice hockey competitively all the way through the collegiate level and then in A level adult leagues. I remember when I hit my mid to late 30's my body just couldn't recover from nagging injuries I got from playing ice hockey in men's leagues. Bruises took longer to heal, pulled muscles took longer, sore backs lasted longer, etc. And I've always stayed in shape, went to the gym regularly, never was overweight (heck I'm still 6'3", 195lbs and fit). I had to give up ice hockey by 40 and now I just play volleyball competitively to stay in shape. Getting older sucks, and Ben plays in one of the toughest sports in the world.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    All good answers. I really liked the rifle scope analogy. That is what I felt I saw all season. Ben was off, even on the short ones, but the WRs were still able to haul it in. On the deeper ones, well the fact that they basically gave up on them for large portions of the season, speaks volumes to me.

    I said at the end of the season that it is/was possible that there was a strength and conditioning issue post-surgery that could help to "fix" some of this. And that still may be possible. But, until there are live games to say different, I am still of the opinion (likely a bad one) that Ben should have retired and you can put him behind a brick wall with the best RB in the world and it won't change not being able to do some of the things a high level NFL QB needs to do any longer. Ben will still likely play well enough that they are in every game and win many of them. Enough to lose early in the playoffs when teams need to elevate their game.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Even if Ben's 'arm' has fallen off some, he can more than make up for most of it with his play experience. Rookie level arm talent vs veteran experience could be explained in watching Rudolph look lost most of the time while carrying around enough arm talent to be an all-pro. Eventually it catches up or it doesn't. Ben has both until proven otherwise and that's going to be my stance until then.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    I like to think that if Ben decided to return, he must feel his arm is ok. These HOF QB's have pride, i don't think they'd want to risk hurting the team with poor play. Got to take it as a good sign of health that Ben decided to return.

    Even if he's wrong and it turns out badly, steelers get a high draft pick and have lots of money to pickup a FA QB in 2022.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    How does a running game make a specific human being’s arm stronger and more accurate?

    I’m not trying pick on your comment in particular or anything confrontational. But I keep hearing this type of response to the “QB Question” and I don’t understand how a run game fixes scattershot noodle arm? And, yes, I realize it’s not that dramatic but I exaggerate to underscore the point.
    Because he won't have to throw it as much. Basically our running game was short passes.

    "Zeds dead baby, Zeds dead." - Butch

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    I can see what you are saying, but if you can't throw 500-600+ passes over the course of a season then maybe you shouldn't be a 30 some million dollar NFL QB.

    The accuracy and ball placement issues were there from Week 1. Even when Ben's arm was fresh and the team was running the ball effectively, he still was way off on deep passes and was scattershot with hitting moving targets.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I can see what you are saying, but if you can't throw 500-600+ passes over the course of a season then maybe you shouldn't be a 30 some million dollar NFL QB.

    and he isnt ....

    I guess with all the dead cap etc he is but thats on the team for restructures etc ( see Lamar Woodley on how to get in a huge contract hole in a hurry and apply it here as well )

    technically speaking Ben is a bargain at his current 1 year deal contract price even if he replicates last years numbers ( which were pretty good by the way based on a statistical look ) his numbers where better than most ...The Pundits will have you to believe we are headed for a 5-12 season and Ben is washed up blah blah blah but at the end of the day he was the most productive QB in the division and those same Pundits will also tell you that Justin Herbert is one of the best QBs in the league ( Herberts numbers were no better than Bens ) ... cant have it both ways but the pundits will try and convince you that you can ...

    bottom line I do not see this team winning any less than 10 games and 4 to 5 wins in the division ...

    Year Age Base Salary Signing Restructure Cap Hit Dead Cap Yearly Cash
    2021 39 $1,075,000 $15,085,000 $9,750,000 $25,910,000 $35,200,000 $14,000,000($14,000,000)
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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    and he isnt ....

    I guess with all the dead cap etc he is but thats on the team for restructures etc ( see Lamar Woodley on how to get in a huge contract hole in a hurry and apply it here as well )

    technically speaking Ben is a bargain at his current 1 year deal contract price even if he replicates last years numbers ( which were pretty good by the way based on a statistical look ) his numbers where better than most ...The Pundits will have you to believe we are headed for a 5-12 season and Ben is washed up blah blah blah but at the end of the day he was the most productive QB in the division and those same Pundits will also tell you that Justin Herbert is one of the best QBs in the league ( Herberts numbers were no better than Bens ) ... cant have it both ways but the pundits will try and convince you that you can ...

    bottom line I do not see this team winning any less than 10 games and 4 to 5 wins in the division ...

    Year Age Base Salary Signing Restructure Cap Hit Dead Cap Yearly Cash
    2021 39 $1,075,000 $15,085,000 $9,750,000 $25,910,000 $35,200,000 $14,000,000($14,000,000)
    Don't forget the $10 million and change they are paying him in 2022 even if he retires or gets hit by a bus. That makes him a $36+ million QB in 2021. That's MVP of the league money. And to be fair, it is also Cousins and Goff money.

    I agree the numbers looked good, but they certainly did not seem good when he was down over a yard and a half per completion. Missed open guys often. Declined to take shots deep. Etc.

    Last season, Ben played like a QB who can help his team win 8-9 games and get beat in the playoffs by a decent defense. He no longer looks like a QB who can carry the team to playoff victories.

    Despite the nice PR of the "pay cut", Ben is still getting paid like a top 5 QB in the NFL. I get that him playing this season was the cheapest and best option for the team. I am 100% behind that idea. I just think that expectations need to be severely tempered. This was not a team that was a piece or two away from dominance. This is a team that beat some mediocre to bad teams early in the year and then got revealed to be doing it with a lot of smoke and mirrors on offense. When defenses adjusted to that, they had nothing. And a big part of that was because the QB simply wasn't very good.

    2020 Ben looked to be getting by on savvy and wiles last season. Like a former power pitcher turned junk-baller late in his career. I just don't buy the idea that that improves in 2021.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    ^ He may not need to carry the team, OL and Running game will be improved from last year, better receiving targets (more experienced WR’s, improved TE play) better coordinator to help with playcalling (hopefully) and a better defense (bush returning) a mistake minimal game manager Ben with a few big plays could be enough for a great run

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Don't forget the $10 million and change they are paying him in 2022 even if he retires or gets hit by a bus. That makes him a $36+ million QB in 2021. That's MVP of the league money. And to be fair, it is also Cousins and Goff money.

    I agree the numbers looked good, but they certainly did not seem good when he was down over a yard and a half per completion. Missed open guys often. Declined to take shots deep. Etc.

    Last season, Ben played like a QB who can help his team win 8-9 games and get beat in the playoffs by a decent defense. He no longer looks like a QB who can carry the team to playoff victories.

    Despite the nice PR of the "pay cut", Ben is still getting paid like a top 5 QB in the NFL. I get that him playing this season was the cheapest and best option for the team. I am 100% behind that idea. I just think that expectations need to be severely tempered. This was not a team that was a piece or two away from dominance. This is a team that beat some mediocre to bad teams early in the year and then got revealed to be doing it with a lot of smoke and mirrors on offense. When defenses adjusted to that, they had nothing. And a big part of that was because the QB simply wasn't very good.

    2020 Ben looked to be getting by on savvy and wiles last season. Like a former power pitcher turned junk-baller late in his career. I just don't buy the idea that that improves in 2021.

    we cant simply ignore the fact that the team led the league in drops either tho ...
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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    It was the worst 12-4 season in Steelers history. Let’s hope for a better 9-8 record or a worse 14-3.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    we cant simply ignore the fact that the team led the league in drops either tho ...
    Good point. It would be cool if some site looked at the drops and categorized them. Drops that are because the receiver just didn’t hang on to it. Drops that were contested by a defensive player. Drops that were from poor ball placement.

    We shall see in like 3 months or whatever.

    But I don’t think Roethlisberger is all that good anymore. Phil Rivers from last season is likely his ceiling. Maybe Kirk Cousins-ish. Something like that. Those teams had/have spiffy rushing attacks and they still didn’t make deep playoff runs. That’s all I’m saying.

    Why? Because I can already feel the outsized Steelers internet expectations building. #1 defense. Watt is DPOY. Harris is a rookie sensation. Friar the TE is a mythical curative for offensive woes. Etc. I just don’t see that ceiling for this roster with the 2020 of Ben R.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    It is also possible that they mess around and win a SB. Bucs just did that on the back of a stellar pass rush, a good run game, and old man Brady doing just enough to make up the gaps.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    found this interesting ....

    Big Ben's inclusion here might be a bit of a surprise to anyone who watched the Steelers' decline in the second half of last season, but if we've known one fact about Roethlisberger for the majority of his career, it's that he's mostly unfazed by pressure. Roethlisberger got the ball out quicker than anyone in the league in 2020 with an average time to throw of 2.30 seconds. He also posted a total expected points added (a metric that gauges how an individual's performance affects the team's scoring output) of -1.9, the highest in the league when under pressure. That essentially means Roethlisberger was minimizing risk/damage while also helping his team advance amid disadvantageous circumstances (for comparison's sake, Carson Wentz posted a -122.3 total EPA when under pressure). Roethlisberger attempted 111 passes under pressure, the fifth-highest total of those on this list, yet he still threw only one interception. Finally, Roethlisberger is known as a tower of a quarterback who is highly difficult to bring down, and that shined through in the stats. He took just 13 sacks under pressure, tied for the fewest in the league. Roethlisberger didn't look great down the stretch, sure, but when his team's average offensive line (ranked 17th by PFF) didn't do its part, he still overcame adversity at a rate that was among the best in the league.

    full thing here Ben's rank was 5th in the league https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-st...outshines-comp
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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    1. ZERO RUN support doesnt help.
    2. He got a knee injury mid season that he couldnt quite fully recover from, he was immobile.

    So late season into the playoffs, with no run game, and a QB that cant move, all defenses had to do was start tipping passes since tehy new Ben was only throwing from one spot.

    This year we need to have a run game. If we have a run game, hopefully we can keep Ben healthy when we need him most... the superbowl
    \

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    So this is the stat or stats that have to change, in my opinion, for 2021 to have much of a different outcome than 2020. https://steelersdepot.com/2021/06/ro...ts-since-2019/

    Traditionally, Ben is over about 9 in intended air yards....last year...7. Even getting it to about 8 would be more than enough to change the offense in a positive way. Here's hoping!

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

    with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield
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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

    with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield
    Good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    Play action is going to be an emphasis ( or so they are claiming ) ... Remember Ben in the Cowher era , he had a solid PA game and was in my mind one of the better play action QBs in the league .... now these youngsters are writing about " can Ben learn to PA " can you teach the old dog new tricks ? clearly they are youngsters because he was one of the best at it , he didnt start sucking at it all the sudden they just quit doing it about when B.A. took the reigns of OC and never looked back ...

    with the quick throwing and a solid PA game you're buying time you do not necessarily need but those missed steps by defenders can loom large if they get caught peeking into the backfield
    Who's claiming this other than the media and fans? Has anyone with the Steelers made this claim? I haven't seen it yet.

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    Re: Roethlisberger in The Athletic

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Who's claiming this other than the media and fans? Has anyone with the Steelers made this claim? I haven't seen it yet.

    just seeing people write about it ... and proclamations that motion and play action are a large part of what Canada likes to do on offense


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