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Thread: Let's talk run game vs scheme

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    Let's talk run game vs scheme

    1st point on why the Steelers RUN GAME was dead last starts with offensive scheme. The Steelers were in 11 personnel 75% of the time. That typically means Ben in shotgun and 1RB and 1TE. When a RB plays from a shotgun formation what is lost is *2 steps toward the LOS.

    *When under center on a run play, the RB is moving toward the LOS when the handoff is made. When in shotgun the RB is standing waiting for the handoff and not moving.*

    Any running short yardage or goal-line play is at a serious disadvantage from a shotgun, + 11 personnel set.

    Change in OC has been made. I am seriously considering that the change in scheme is bigger, more impactful than a change in personnel. Looking at Benny Snell at KY tells me he is a tough runner that gets tough yards. But running from shotgun with 11 personnel put every RB at a serious disadvantage.

    Watch Snell's college tape/highlight film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40Hmdc99I4E
    He does get tough yards and breaks tackles and looks the part of a productive NFL RB. Now Kalen Ballage has been added to that stable.


    Very interested to get some discussion on this topic. Not RB/OL bashing, real talk about offensive scheme vs RB talent, and how to put players in position to succeed.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Watching the 2020 Steelers, the few things I noticed:

    • James Conner was definitely the hardest and most definitive runner of the group. The problem with Conner was that they would put him in to situations where he was running East/West and he’s just not that type of runner. It also didn’t help that the O-Line never could seal the edge. North/South, Conner was productive...from the naked eye. I’m not sure if there’s a place to go to see the stats of one (E/W) vs. the other (N/S) but from watching the games (sometimes twice) as an average Joe, that seemed to be the main issue.

    • Benny Snell plays very slow. Extremely slow and then he doesn’t always select the proper hole or make a decision as to where to run in a timely fashion. Just seems everything is overly slow with him.

    • Anthony McFarland looked very promising during the Houston game but then he was never used again. If I remember correctly, size-wise and measures led were on par with Maurice Jones Drew? I think that’s something I’d like to look into a little more. Maybe he’s one of those guys that needs reps to get going?

    • Kalen Ballage had some good games in San Diego, but he’s not a starter in my opinion.

    • Finally and most obviously, the O-Line and play calling just wasn’t run friendly. As you said, when the Back is in 11 personnel from the shotgun, you’re already at a disadvantage. Now mind you, what you didn’t mention and what I saw (again, average Joe) was at times, the O-Line would pass block (took a two back instead of attacking) on that shotgun draw play. So not only is your back two steps back, not moving but now the O-Line and defenders are also one step closer with less room to run. That frustrated me to no end.

    There was a lot wrong with the run game as a whole and a lot of work needs to be done with it. There is no “one-fix” to it.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Watching the 2020 Steelers, the few things I noticed:

    • James Conner was definitely the hardest and most definitive runner of the group. The problem with Conner was that they would put him in to situations where he was running East/West and he’s just not that type of runner. It also didn’t help that the O-Line never could seal the edge. North/South, Conner was productive...from the naked eye. I’m not sure if there’s a place to go to see the stats of one (E/W) vs. the other (N/S) but from watching the games (sometimes twice) as an average Joe, that seemed to be the main issue.

    • Benny Snell plays very slow. Extremely slow and then he doesn’t always select the proper hole or make a decision as to where to run in a timely fashion. Just seems everything is overly slow with him.

    • Anthony McFarland looked very promising during the Houston game but then he was never used again. If I remember correctly, size-wise and measures led were on par with Maurice Jones Drew? I think that’s something I’d like to look into a little more. Maybe he’s one of those guys that needs reps to get going?

    • Kalen Ballage had some good games in San Diego, but he’s not a starter in my opinion.

    • Finally and most obviously, the O-Line and play calling just wasn’t run friendly. As you said, when the Back is in 11 personnel from the shotgun, you’re already at a disadvantage. Now mind you, what you didn’t mention and what I saw (again, average Joe) was at times, the O-Line would pass block (took a two back instead of attacking) on that shotgun draw play. So not only is your back two steps back, not moving but now the O-Line and defenders are also one step closer with less room to run. That frustrated me to no end.

    There was a lot wrong with the run game as a whole and a lot of work needs to be done with it. There is no “one-fix” to it.
    Agree with all this. One thing about Snell is if you watch his college tape, then his Steelers tape, he looks like 2 different RBs. That's why I wonder how much of the 'problem' lies with scheme over personnel.

    Ballage is a 3rd down, short yardage, goal-line RB. I think I read he was used as a KR in Miami, so he may bring some ST value as well. But no, he's not in competition to be the starter.

    I have not seen enough of McFarland to have an opinion yet. IF he is supposed to be so very elusive in the open field though, why is he not getting KR reps?

    A lot of things from last season just don't make sense.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    There must be a way to run effectively out of 11 personnel. Most of the league predominantly lines up that way.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    There must be a way to run effectively out of 11 personnel. Most of the league predominantly lines up that way.
    I mean did not the Colts with Manning and Edgerrin James run out of 11-personnel most of the time? I’m pretty sure the Rams ran a lot of 11-personnel with Gurley as well. I think that’s two good examples of it being successfully executed. I think the main thing in that formation has to be the blocking angles for the WRs. If they aren’t in the proper position, they aren’t going to be able to make the blocks and I think we saw a lot of that on the Conner E/W rushing plays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Agreed, too many running plays out of the shotgun. It’s probably safe to assume Ben liked it that way. Also seems likely that the new OC with Rooney’s backing will change that up, maybe add some play action to keep the defenses off balance.

    the line needs to learn to push forward and block with determination on these running plays too (maybe that’s why they changed the line coach) all in all, I’m looking forward to the Steelers getting back to effectively running the football, hopefully Ben has a resurgent year too, cause we can’t run if Ben can’t pass

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    I mean did not the Colts with Manning and Edgerrin James run out of 11-personnel most of the time? I’m pretty sure the Rams ran a lot of 11-personnel with Gurley as well. I think that’s two good examples of it being successfully executed. I think the main thing in that formation has to be the blocking angles for the WRs. If they aren’t in the proper position, they aren’t going to be able to make the blocks and I think we saw a lot of that on the Conner E/W rushing plays.
    But were the Colts with Manning facing a 7-8 man box? I think we're hitting on one of the larger issues. With the throw short and run long offensive scheme it didn't matter so much what formation you ran out of. RBs were having to make a defender miss in the backfield, then find a hole to run through, then get upfield. The defense was allowed to create too much chaos in the Steelers' run game.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    We need to get back to having lineman with their hand on the ground. It keeps them balanced, low, and able to fire forward. When you are in 11 set, all of the lineman are standing up allowing the defensive lineman to get under their pads and push them back when the handoff is made.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    But were the Colts with Manning facing a 7-8 man box? I think we're hitting on one of the larger issues. With the throw short and run long offensive scheme it didn't matter so much what formation you ran out of. RBs were having to make a defender miss in the backfield, then find a hole to run through, then get upfield. The defense was allowed to create too much chaos in the Steelers' run game.
    Any D.C. putting 8 in the box vs 11 personnel is playing ZERO Coverage, Man to Man. That is there is no safety. Very few DC's that ever valued their job EVER played man to man, ZERO coverage vs. Peyton Manning. Most of the time they would see 7 defenders in the box and if there ever was a front with only 6, the QB is going to check to a run, which in the Colts system was an outside zone stretch play.

    And further to a point made before, a 5 man O line, with a TE or H back on the end of the line with a single RB is a very common formation in the NFL and one that many teams run out of.

    The Steelers used 11 a lot at times and sent Ebron wide in RPO situations where Ben had the option of WR screens on either side or hand it off.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    There must be a way to run effectively out of 11 personnel. Most of the league predominantly lines up that way.
    Of course there is a way but we didn't do it that way apparently. Just how I see last season, when the Steelers ran out of 11 personnel it was still played from a pass set. When the defense knows you are either going to run from shotgun or throw a quick pass within 5 yards of the LOS, they load the box. Maybe, had the Steelers got somebody behind the 2nd level and burned a defense for loading up, it would have been more of a Manning and the Colts mentality from the defense. I just think the offense became too predictable and it didn't much matter who the personnel were at the time. It is very hard to run against a defense that is set up to take away everything short. Those 3 wide or 3 bunch or whatever configuration didn't fool anyone. The run game suffered for it.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Of course there is a way but we didn't do it that way apparently. Just how I see last season, when the Steelers ran out of 11 personnel it was still played from a pass set. When the defense knows you are either going to run from shotgun or throw a quick pass within 5 yards of the LOS, they load the box. Maybe, had the Steelers got somebody behind the 2nd level and burned a defense for loading up, it would have been more of a Manning and the Colts mentality from the defense. I just think the offense became too predictable and it didn't much matter who the personnel were at the time. It is very hard to run against a defense that is set up to take away everything short. Those 3 wide or 3 bunch or whatever configuration didn't fool anyone. The run game suffered for it.
    Sure. But you indicated that you wanted to talk scheme and not player performance.

    But...did the scheme not work because it was fundamentally flawed OR because the Steelers had players that were incapable of executing it?

    There are quite a few teams that run and run well out of 11 personnel. There are quite a few teams that run well out of the shotgun. These are not insurmountable barriers to rushing the ball in the NFL.

    But what no team can overcome is a QB that directs a passing game that defenses scoff at. I know that basically no one agrees with me, but Ben Roethlisberger was the dominant factor in the offensive collapse. His inability or unwillingness to consistently threaten defenses at the second and third levels in order to prevent the defense compressing everything to within a few yards of the LOS and his inability to punish defenses when they "cheated" guys up into the box totally paralyzed the offense in the second half of the season.

    Sure, he threw for a ton of yards against the Browns in the playoff game while they chilled out in prevent, but other than that -- once defenses figured out the Steelers weren't throwing deep...the offense was totally broken.

    Sure, the run game wasn't awesome to begin with...but it kinda...sorta...almost did things in the first few games. The games where defenses were playing pre-2020 Roethlisberger. The guy who could absolutely make you pay for rolling your DBs up and crashing LBs in the run game. Then...the Ravens showed the NFL that that Ben Roethlisberger wasn't playing in 2020 and the wheels came off.

    I understand that this debate is precisely what you didn't want in this thread. And I do apologize. But I just don't see how the two are not linked in a way that can not be separated.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sure. But you indicated that you wanted to talk scheme and not player performance.

    But...did the scheme not work because it was fundamentally flawed OR because the Steelers had players that were incapable of executing it?

    There are quite a few teams that run and run well out of 11 personnel. There are quite a few teams that run well out of the shotgun. These are not insurmountable barriers to rushing the ball in the NFL.

    But what no team can overcome is a QB that directs a passing game that defenses scoff at. I know that basically no one agrees with me, but Ben Roethlisberger was the dominant factor in the offensive collapse. His inability or unwillingness to consistently threaten defenses at the second and third levels in order to prevent the defense compressing everything to within a few yards of the LOS and his inability to punish defenses when they "cheated" guys up into the box totally paralyzed the offense in the second half of the season.

    Sure, he threw for a ton of yards against the Browns in the playoff game while they chilled out in prevent, but other than that -- once defenses figured out the Steelers weren't throwing deep...the offense was totally broken.

    Sure, the run game wasn't awesome to begin with...but it kinda...sorta...almost did things in the first few games. The games where defenses were playing pre-2020 Roethlisberger. The guy who could absolutely make you pay for rolling your DBs up and crashing LBs in the run game. Then...the Ravens showed the NFL that that Ben Roethlisberger wasn't playing in 2020 and the wheels came off.

    I understand that this debate is precisely what you didn't want in this thread. And I do apologize. But I just don't see how the two are not linked in a way that can not be separated.
    Ok, that's a perfect discussion point. If the QB position was keeping the defenses in close to the LOS by the philosophy that 'either this play will be a run out of shotgun, OR a quick throw within 5 yards of the LOS', that goes a long way to understanding why RBs were having a tough go, IMO. That can fall on personnel but I still think it's more offensive scheme/philosophy. Honestly I think there is a combination of factors we can all point to.(Ben, OL age and injuries, rookie RBs, drops by WRs, etc...) But in order to get the run game just to the middle of the pack, there will need to be some fundamental scheme changes regardless of the personnel. I think that's what I'm truly digging at here.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Ok, that's a perfect discussion point. If the QB position was keeping the defenses in close to the LOS by the philosophy that 'either this play will be a run out of shotgun, OR a quick throw within 5 yards of the LOS', that goes a long way to understanding why RBs were having a tough go, IMO. That can fall on personnel but I still think it's more offensive scheme/philosophy. Honestly I think there is a combination of factors we can all point to.(Ben, OL age and injuries, rookie RBs, drops by WRs, etc...) But in order to get the run game just to the middle of the pack, there will need to be some fundamental scheme changes regardless of the personnel. I think that's what I'm truly digging at here.
    And while I see the validity and insight of the factors you list, I don't see any of them as really causing the downfall of the offense aside from Ben's diminished abilities.

    WRs were open at the second and third levels of the defense and the QB either didn't throw to them or wasn't able to complete the throw accurately. Even if HALF of those deep misses were because Claypool ran the route wrong...there was still a high number of piss-poor throws from the QB.

    I am glad the OC was fired. I hope the scheme changes a great deal in 2021 and moving forward. But I do not see massive improvements overall unless Ben in 2021 is somehow magically a better QB. Maybe another year removed from surgery and a bit humbled from his 2020 performance somehow he pulls together an old man game but I am not counting on it.

    I am thinking we will see a lot of what Drew Brees looked like in that playoff game agains the Bucs. Almost...but not quite. Father time and all that.

    Again...hijacking the discussion.

    Best thing Canada can do is get the RBs going north/south and get some more play disguise into the offense. I knew what the Steelers were running half the time and I don't play football for a living.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Scheme-wise, hopefully Matt Canada will come up with good schemes that can help maximize the run game (I would say better than last year, but the bar is simply too low for just better)

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Not sure if some of you know the difference between "Pistol" formation and "gun or Shotgun" formation. I think some believe if the QB isnt under center, then its automatically gun, when in many cases its pistol. Here are some links.

    What is the difference between the pistol and shotgun formation? - Quora

    Film Room: Lamar Jackson and the Pistol | Football Outsiders

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    Scheme-wise, hopefully Matt Canada will come up with good schemes that can help maximize the run game (I would say better than last year, but the bar is simply too low for just better)
    Agree whole heartedly. A lot of hill to climb.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    And while I see the validity and insight of the factors you list, I don't see any of them as really causing the downfall of the offense aside from Ben's diminished abilities.

    WRs were open at the second and third levels of the defense and the QB either didn't throw to them or wasn't able to complete the throw accurately. Even if HALF of those deep misses were because Claypool ran the route wrong...there was still a high number of piss-poor throws from the QB.

    I am glad the OC was fired. I hope the scheme changes a great deal in 2021 and moving forward. But I do not see massive improvements overall unless Ben in 2021 is somehow magically a better QB. Maybe another year removed from surgery and a bit humbled from his 2020 performance somehow he pulls together an old man game but I am not counting on it.

    I am thinking we will see a lot of what Drew Brees looked like in that playoff game agains the Bucs. Almost...but not quite. Father time and all that.

    Again...hijacking the discussion.

    Best thing Canada can do is get the RBs going north/south and get some more play disguise into the offense. I knew what the Steelers were running half the time and I don't play football for a living.
    What then, in your opinion, could the new OC do scheme-wise to help improve an offense with a 'diminished' Ben, 'checkdown' MR, or 'last chance' Haskins? Offenses have been able to stay relevant without stellar QB play throughout history. In order to improve the run game more than just 'moving the needle' better, something besides improving the QB play has to happen. Maybe me just fishing for positives here, but I think if used correctly Benny Snell can be the bellcow RB and Anthony McFarland can be used as the speed RB he was supposedly drafted to be. I think it begins and ends with blocking. Whether it was run blocking from a pass set, or an OL riddled with age and injury, or simply terrible timing due to awful play calling, the blocking scheme and effort must improve first, IMO. New OC and OL coach pretty much puts a huge spotlight on this as well. I'm hoping Canada's offense is going to change a lot of what we saw in 2020. I'm just not X's and O's enough to put my random thoughts into words very well. But as you point out, I know bad football when I see it.

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    Re: Let's talk run game vs scheme

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    What then, in your opinion, could the new OC do scheme-wise to help improve an offense with a 'diminished' Ben, 'checkdown' MR, or 'last chance' Haskins? Offenses have been able to stay relevant without stellar QB play throughout history. In order to improve the run game more than just 'moving the needle' better, something besides improving the QB play has to happen. Maybe me just fishing for positives here, but I think if used correctly Benny Snell can be the bellcow RB and Anthony McFarland can be used as the speed RB he was supposedly drafted to be. I think it begins and ends with blocking. Whether it was run blocking from a pass set, or an OL riddled with age and injury, or simply terrible timing due to awful play calling, the blocking scheme and effort must improve first, IMO. New OC and OL coach pretty much puts a huge spotlight on this as well. I'm hoping Canada's offense is going to change a lot of what we saw in 2020. I'm just not X's and O's enough to put my random thoughts into words very well. But as you point out, I know bad football when I see it.
    I don’t know. Certainly the lack of any schematic answer after defenses adjusted last season was a big problem. I have to hope a better approach yields better results. Maybe Canada doesn’t need high end QB play to make it all go. But I’m not hopeful. At all.

    We have just seen one innovative scheme in the Rams give up on a limited QB because the coaches determined they couldn’t get there without more from the QB spot.

    Now the 49ers with another wizard scheme guy at the controls have sold the farm to go get a rookie QB because they don’t believe in their limited QB anymore.

    I’m not sure that any of the QBs in the Steelers roster are that much (if at all) better than Garapolo or Goff.

    If I was better at x and o details, maybe I’d have something. But the entire situation does not have me brimming with optimism.

    The best hope I have is that Canada can lay positive groundwork for post 2021.

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