finally something we can agree onOriginally Posted by Lloydwoodsonjr
finally something we can agree on
You were probably the meanest girl in your school.finally something we can agree on
only to little bitches like you.
otherwise I'm cool
You're right. Defenders can't make a play on the ball 5 yards out of bounds.
Despite what you and Sharpe contend, Ben hasn't been a good deep passer since 2016 or 2017.
Thinking a 39 year old QB just needs to get chemistry with his WR is total pie in the sky thinking.
Yes, I'm a cranky old fart but that's beside the point.
I was simply responding to your argument that Shannon Sharpe's NFL commentary is somehow above reproach because he's a HoFer by mentioning what is still widely considered to be the worst booth crew in Monday Night Football history (even worse than the Booger McFarland/Joe Tessitore/Jason Witten fiasco), despite being comprised of THREE NFL HoFers. I thought the parallel was kinda obvious. Do I need to draw a picture?
Just for you:
yeah a typical snowflake , still learning how to aim to hit the toilet and want to profess how much smarter they are than everyone else ....
to steal a line from a friend of mine ...
SUMMATION: when you think you are smarter than everyone else , you are likely the dumbest man in the room ....
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Tome for a good old-fashioned...
RECAP!!!
LloydWoodson posts a video.
Someone (or several people) say that they don’t particularly like Shannon Sharpe’s style.
LloydWoodson doubles down by saying that Brett Favre would make a great commentator becsuse... (checks notes)... at one point Favre couldn’t read a Cover 2 defense.
Someone posts a picture of probably the WORST broadcast team of all time (a drunk, a womanizer, and a murderer).
LloydWoodson misses the joke and calls this person a septuagenarian for “liking” that broadcast team.
An OJ “stab” pun is made. I laugh.
LloydWoodson declares that anyone who doesn’t think that Shannon Sharpe is the best commentator out there also does not want to improve the running game. (Yea, it’s a huge leap in logic, but we are all used to it.)
LloydWoodson then declares that anyone who doesn’t think that Brett Favre would be the second best commentator in the history of broadcasting will be struck down by the lightning bolts of Zeus (or something like that... I sort of stopped actually reading his posts).
There is a Mean Girl reference. My nephew Anpherny laughs.
Two people try to tell LloydWoodson that no one is actually taking anything he says seriously (because, all he seems to do is dwell on the minutia and/or build strawmen) ... and here we are.
QUESTION:
If I like Louis Riddick, does that mean that I also dislike Creed Humphrey? Or, does it just mean that I prefer screen passes??? I was absent the day when they went over “sports commentator analogies”.
Yeah, I see this a lot... people start with their bias of Ben having been 38 and working backwords.
Multiple times Tom Brady was called trash because of his receiving corps and he just threw 40 TD at 43.
Steelers were second in drops in the NFL.
Roethlisberger isn't going to magically develop chemistry with his third year WRs who keep dropping the ball. He is going to improve chemistry that is already there with Claypool.
Claypool had a number of big plays last year courtesy of Ben showing the deep pass is still an option.
Even Ben years ago said his deep ball wasn't as good as some other QBs and that was in his prime.
Ben at 39 is much better than the 23 year-old Ben- what has changed drastically is the playcalling and personnel.
Teegre, I said "You must have been the meanest girl in your school." I've never watched Mean Girl. You're the one living on movie quotes.
I think Favre would be a good commentator because he is forthcoming. You haven't stated why Brett Favre would be a bad commentator. Why exactly?! Please give a reason other than being contrarian. You actually failed to tell me why Favre being completely forthcoming makes him a poor commentator.
That's amazing people still laugh at the most clichéd OJ puns. You probably watch late night talk shows huh? Kimmel and Meyer are hilarious?
At this point you're just hating for the sake of hating. You must have had extensive NFL experience to so readily dismiss HOF like Favre and Sharpe.
great questions, hope these answers help you to understand "sports commentator analogies" better.
"Snowflakes" amiriteguys?
I don't think HOF are "beyond reproach" just more credible and knowledgeable about the NFL.
Joe Namath only wants to get drunk and party. I don't think he even gives his opinion and really he shouldn't be in the HOF.
Sharpe was ranked a top 5 TE all-time who played on a couple of the best teams ever.
Sharpe regularly criticizes current players in a way most ex-players won't.
A lot of the prejudice against Sharpe is because he grew up poor, black and southern- I keep hearing "I can't understand him." I haven't heard any substantive criticisms of him this entire thread.
You couldn't attack Sharpe so you attacked Joe Namath circa 1981.
My opinion has nothing to do with Ben's age. While I do think Father Time is kicking his ass, that opinion is based on watching every pass thrown in 2020 and seeing that they were often very not good. Chemistry has nothing to do with:
Throwing high and out of bounds along the sideline. Multiple deep shots by Ben last year were uncharacteristically not even w/in the field of play.
Missing behind and low to WRs. Many (many) times Ben was late and low with this throws to WRs on the move. Often had guys reaching low and back around their hips instead of high and away around their shoulders. This is a drop-off in accuracy that Ben has not consistently demonstrated before.
Ben did not place the ball with his usual accuracy and precision all year in all types of situations. The most recent and visually striking example was the 2PT conversion throw to Juju against the Browns in the playoffs. Ben placed the ball on the inside shoulder low instead of the outside shoulder high. This allowed the defender to come around Juju's body and make a play on the ball preventing the conversion. Ben has rarely "missed" those types of throws before.
His ball placement on deep throws was horrendous all season. Think that INT against the Bills. That was an awful place to put the ball -- basically the only guy on the field who had a play on it was the Bills defender. He regularly hit the wrong shoulder (went inside when it should have been outside and vice versa) and plenty of passes were prayers that his WRs made good on.
Also...you just spent a whole thread lauding Sharpe and calling us all dumb for not wanting Ben to be a deep passer. Now your argument is that Ben wasn't even really that good at deep passing in his prime?
I think you might need to pick an argument and stick to it. You also seem to be confusing the "hot takes" that come out of big sports media for actual analysis, knowledge, and insight. You will find that almost none of those loud noises on ESPN and your local sports radio are repeated here. Most of us find them entertaining but useless to figuring anything out about the NFL and the Steelers. If you listened and read more of what was actually being said around here, you might learn something. Many posters here know a great deal about football.
Personally, I find Shannon Sharpe entertaining and willing to take the hit for saying "controversial" things (like not actually controversial but stupid NFL Twitter controversial). Good for him. But I am not buying these national guys analysis of any team, including the Steelers. Say Sharpe is going to do one segment in a given week on Ben Roethlisberger. How much tape of 2020 games does he watch? Does he watch that broken down by situation and game scenarios? Does he look at pressure versus not pressured? Does he look at early season versus later in the season? And on and on. OR..does he just base his opinion on summary stats, the overall W-L record, and his general impression of Ben from the last 15 years?
Every single detailed analysis I have seen of Ben Roethlisberger's 2020 season reaches the same general conclusions:
He was hurt by drops - no doubt.
He also had a precipitous drop-off in accuracy and precision over about 8-10 yards down the field. He was basically unable to operate over the deep middle. And he seemed better throwing to or along the left boundary than the right boundary.
Also, it appears he still has enough arm strength to heave the ball really far down a football field, but those deep shots were wildly unpredictable in where they would "target" a WR. Inside, outside, out of bounds, short, long...he missed all over the place.
And finally...while the Steelers run game stunk all on its own - Ben did little to help it. His low yards per attempt and lack of consistent downfield passing allowed teams to compress their coverages and let more LBs and DBs play shallow and lurk around the LOS. This had an impact on the run game. A run game that was not that great to begin with.
But...why let details get in the way of your cool story that you bring that young cool energy and knowledge to grumpy old men?
Sharpe is a shock jock just like Bayless, Cowherd, Bill Plasshke, etc. Its a lowest common denominator, trolling and clickbait strategy that sucks in a lot of people that want to see controversy, that like watching Hockey for the fights and NASCAR for the crashes. Yes, just like any other job, some basic competencies should apply. Like an accountant that can do math, a car salesman that drives, a judge that is not a felon......and in the world of announcing, somebody that can articulate and annunciate, so he has that problem as well.
Some other guys that didnt grow up rich and white, but are excellent in their respective sports are Ryan Clark and Jalen Rose. A couple more like Dominique Foxworth (grew up son of Army Father stationed in Europe) and Bomani Jones (parents were Economist and Political Science Prof) are very knowledgeable, insightful and articulate and can carry a thoughtful discussion, rather than just screaming hot takes.
If you dont understand the tactics that I am mentioning, you can see this article.
Colin Cowherd fesses up that he will only troll your fanbase if it’s a top-10 Nielsen market
Cowherd explains how there's money in trolling fans from large media markets.
https://awfulannouncing.com/fox/coli...en-market.html
I prefer Sports Talk personalities who are about substance and content, rather than trolling for attention. That being said, there are a lot of people out there that are attracted to shiny objects and dont care if they are bottle caps, rather than gemstones.
I said that Ben in an interview with Chris Simms said he wasn't as good at deep passes as some other QBs.
But Ben isn't a credible source right because he is a HOF so therefore an idiot? That's the argument 76 is making and you are co-signing.
OK, so Ben isn't an expert on Ben and he is wrong, and he was actually a deep passer like Marino or Mahomes in his prime? OK...
"Father time is kicking Ben's ass" but the Steelers scored the 4th most points of any season in his career, his INT% was way down until that playoff game, throwing for over 250 Y/G in a horizontal offense...
I genuinely cannot understand the God you and others have created Ben to be in his "prime."
That is why we can't relate.
When had Ben ever mastered the over the shoulder throw?
Ben underthrowing Wallace even on the TD catches...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYPaJ7bjlc
It didn't matter because of... play action. It doesn't mean I'm "hating on Ben" to agree with him...
Wake me up when you say something different.
Again...you are responding to hyperbolic straw-man arguments that myself and others have not and would not make.
It is not a stretch to say that Ben, prior to about - I don't know 2017 sounds about right - was a better deep ball passer than he is now. If you want to see something besides YouTube highlights that make the exact same points:
https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...-offense-2020/
https://www.gridiron-magazine.com/bl...roethlisberger
Until about 2017 or 2018...no one would have ranked Ben outside of the 6 or so best deep passers in the league. In fact, they didn't:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-deep-throwers
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh...lers-52062658/
But around that 2017-18 window, Ben started missing throws he used to make. He missed at all levels and in different situations. You can see the first link above for examples. Lots of things were put forth as the reason. Bad WRs (and there were several). Poor line play. Bad play calls. Age. And so one. Then it finally came out how injured his elbow really was and everyone was like "Aha! His elbow is made of string cheese, and that explains the seeming inexplicable and intermittent evaporation of his accuracy and ball placement!". Many of us (and there are dozens and dozens of postings here on this very subject) were optimistic that 2020 would be a pleasantly surprising return to form in terms of accuracy and ball placement. Unfortunately, it was not.
You can see some deep dives into data backing these broad generalizations up through the "Deep Ball Project".
For the "prime" of his career, this is typical Ben result: https://brickwallblitz.com/2016/06/0...-2015-part-23/ -- "When healthy, the offense was purely dominant, and the accuracy, as stated before, was amazing. I consider Ben the 2nd best QB heading into the 2016 (behind Rodgers), and it would be great to see what a completely healthy Ben can do with his current receiving cast."
If you click through you will see there was a drop-off in 2016 that many attributed to supporting cast and injury. Then 2017-18 was another drop-off. Then comes 2020. His accuracy and efficiency stats fell off a cliff.
https://brickwallblitz.com/2021/02/1...ject-part-1-3/
"he was the third least accurate passer into open windows and a non factor against pressure. The arm injury he suffered in 2019 drastically made his decline more staggering, but this was a decline that started long before that season. In the seasons prior to that, his deep accuracy was also a liability. "
So this is the guy you want throwing deep often? The guy who just went a whole season proving he isn't good at it anymore? Prior to like 2017 or so...anyone associated with the NFL would have been all aboard for more Roethlisberger deep passing. But if you say that now...you are not understanding the football you do watch (if any).
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
He certainly likes sending unsolicited pictures of his junk to women. What a great communicator that is also very forthcoming.
The "Deep Ball Project" is very official sounding but it is one man's analysis, Johnny Kinsley.
Kinsley rated Tom Brady 30th best deep ball passer and gave him grades of D and D+ in other seasons.
Last year Brady was second in yards and TD on passes over 20 yards through the air... so Kinsley ranked him 16th because...
"So why is Brady 16th instead of much higher? It has to do with a terrible stretch of deep passing from the middle of the season. Between Week 7 and Week 12, he threw 13 straight incompletions, with only one of those passes being accurate. If not for that stretch, Brady might have come out of this study as the No. 1 deep passer. At least he finished with 10 Accurate Incompletions, tied for third most among all deep passers."
Yes, Brady was second in yards and TD but he wasn't good weeks 7-12 so instead of 2nd he's 16th. That's like Skip Bayless taking Lebron going 38 pts 13 ast 9 reb on 14/19 shooting and saying "Well, he only had 6 pts in the 4th. Not clutch! He's overrated!"
Johnny has been beating the dead horse of Brady's age for years. No mention of playing in a completely new offense with almost entirely new teammates in a season with less preparation than usual. No mention of how Brady's receivers were why he was ranked 30th deep passer one year.
What you have posted as evidence is the ultimate in statistics without context.
I am actually very appreciative of the post though. Thank you for actually posting a valid argument rather than insults.
If Hinsley is correct then Ben is pushing the ball downfield more than I thought he was. I've changed my opinion based on the information you've presented.
I always agreed that Ben had a bad year throwing deep the question was why I still think a major component is his receivers. AB had 25, 22 and 27 catches of 20+ in his final 3 seasons. Last year Juju and Chase combined for 26.
How good would Mahomes look throwing deep without Hill and Kelce?
We will see what happens next year. I predict Chase will have at least 20 catches of 20+ yards. If Ben doesn't have success with any of his receivers it will prove I am wrong. I expect Claypool to be a legit deep threat next year.
I'm pretty sure that if you reciprocate and do the same by leaving the insults out you will get much better responses from the posters here.
Not sure how being inaccurate overall and highly ineffective when under pressure is not context?
Wouldn’t that be specifically context?
There are similar studies floating around that exclude drops and Roethlisberger vaults from 29th to the dizzying heights of 19th.
No matter how you analyze it, 2020 was a drop off. A significant one.
I don’t buy it’s all on the WRs. This is the same QB who made DHB, Sammie Coates, Demarcus Ayers, Cobie Hamilton, and Jesse James look like legitimate NFL offensive weapons.
This is why no one is arguing against the idea that running the ball effectively might be a pretty good idea in 2021.
Where the divide begins is where people see Roethlisberger’s “best case” 2021. For me, I figure even with a vastly improved running game, Ben tops out at something along the lines of an immobile Kirk Cousins or Garapolo. Or whatever avatar of “league average” one prefers to conjure up. Others have their sights set higher.
Last edited by Mojouw; 03-07-2021 at 08:37 PM.
Whether Ben is inaccurate or not is subjective. He completed 76% of his passes to Juju (albeit short ones mostly) seems pretty accurate when throwing to Juju. Regardless of pressure Ben had no veteran WR to throw to
2020 ranked 4th in Roethlisberger's career in points scored... 416 vs best of 436 in 2014. I keep hearing how Ben used to be unreal as if he was putting up 550 points a year.
I'd be more alarmed with 29 year-old Ben when that 2011 team put up 325 points or the following year with 336.
...
Running the ball isn't an option this year. The question is whether it ever will be going forward. Can't magically become an effective running team without changing personnel and staff.
...
Roethlisberger doesn't have a WR over 24. They are young and inexperienced and Ben didn't trust them as a group. If he trusts Claypool then Claypool will go off this year.
If Ben puts up 400+ points and throws fewer than 15 picks, and the Steelers make good situational decisions then nothing will have changed.
Everyone acting like Ben is old and shot when he has scored fewer points than last year in 12 separate seasons for... Pete's... sake.
well, let's see now...
we changed our OC who is calling the plays.
we're not bringing James Conner back and will most likely draft a RB early.
AV, Pouncey and Feiler who made up 3/5th of our OL most likely aren't returning.
but nah, we haven't changed any of our personnel or staff.
I can’t even follow this cat’s arguments anymore.well, let's see now...
we changed our OC who is calling the plays.
we're not bringing James Conner back and will most likely draft a RB early.
AV, Pouncey and Feiler who made up 3/5th of our OL most likely aren't returning.
but nah, we haven't changed any of our personnel or staff.
I think it’s just what ever makes everyone else wrong.
I feel like if we try hard enough we can maneuver him into arguing that the Steelers should convert to an old school run and shoot team. Might only take around a dozen carefully crafted posts.
good idea, all we need to tell him is that we don't think the Steelers should convert to an old school run and shoot team.
* OC was the QB coach... same systemwell, let's see now...
we changed our OC who is calling the plays.
we're not bringing James Conner back and will most likely draft a RB early.
AV, Pouncey and Feiler who made up 3/5th of our OL most likely aren't returning.
but nah, we haven't changed any of our personnel or staff.
* Steelers have spent a 3rd and 2 4ths in the last 4 years on RB, and they are not spending a 1st this year
* 1 of 5 OL will be better at run blocking and that is Dotson starting full time
You are making terrible, terrible arguments that don't make sense. The Steelers run 35% of the time but will draft a RB round 1?! Or is it that this time the 3rd round RB will transform the offense single handedly?
Losing a likely HOF center improves the OL? Yes, Pouncey fell off but will his replacement actually be an upgrade? Do you remember Mahan and Hartwig? ... ... ...
so wait...
are you now arguing that we should run more even though we won't be able to?
I am arguing that the Steelers need a philosophy change even post-Ben, and I am concerned that the team will continue to underachieve with an unbalanced aerial attack that has only ever worked for 2 QBs in NFL history.
The Steelers should *start* to improve their running game immediately, and it can't get much worse. I don't expect the Steelers to be amazing at running the ball.
OL needs major attention in the draft. Maybe in free agency when Ben retires.
Drafting a RB now is foolish without an OL to run behind.
Bringing in an OC who is effective at designing run games.
My argument is long-term not short-term. I think the "Have a great run game for Ben magically to take pressure off him" is unrealistic.
how can your argument including Ben possibly be long-term when this is most likely his last season with the Steelers?
of course it's short-term, as in this upcoming season.
and in your scenario we won't be able to run the ball this year yet you want us to run more nevertheless.
makes no sense dude.
2 yards and a cloud of dust , line up and do it again .... then huddle up and decide if you wanna try it a 3rd time in a row .....yeah that sounds like it is on the cusp of a new trend of success league wide ( for the opposition ) I am telling you guys this cat is Tom444 reincarnated
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote