Welcome to day 1 of the illegitimate U.S. government, make your predictions here

[Mach1]

Dunno. Haven't watched a minute of CNN in 10+ years.

Still not able to participate beyond simple snarky comments? Maybe read a book or something and try again next week.

This is what YOU voted for, remember? Please do continue to defend it and make excuses.

[Mojouw]

This is what YOU voted for, remember? Please do continue to defend it and make excuses.

I have no idea what YOU are talking about. Mostly because you lack the ability to articulate complete thoughts on your own.

Maybe instead of teaching liberals to fish, you should have learned how to read?

[Mojouw]

Going on how many posts now, and no one can answer straightforward questions.

Here. Let's make it easy. Here is what many blue jean production sites look like overseas. Some of us? Most of us? Are likely wearing the results of this as we read these messages.



1 in 3 denim clothing items in the world is made in the same town in China. The river is so polluted no one uses it anymore. You guys ready for the plant to relocate and open in your home town? Or are you ready to pay $100+ for a pair of jeans?

Appears that there is significant pollution (just like there used to be) for a massive percentage of the steel production overseas...

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&

Everyone ready to pay more for trucks and SUVs to make cleaner steel at home?

[steelreserve]

Ok. So...how would the pollution causing manufacturing process be different when moved from say, China, to here? US regulations would likely (??) mandate that they would be modified to be environmentally compliant. For instance, when FOXCON wanted to build LED panels out my way -- it was one of the reasons that the factory really never materialized (well that and FOXCON are frauds...but that is another story). They couldn't figure out how to actually make the things here in a regulatory compliant manner for a $$$ amount that fit in the profit margin.

If you look at it...we don't belch smoke anymore. We don't dump waste into the river. And to accomplish that, we largely let those parts of the manufacturing process move overseas decades ago in order to get compliant with the regulatory protocols that came into being around the 1970's.

Maybe it is that certain components get made elsewhere and then assembled here? I dunno...but it is far from the simple. A follows B conversation that all sides of the American political spectrum want it to be.

... and this is where government action actually can tip the balance in favor of doing things the less gross and polluting way. If the only reason why industry has migrated to places where they ignore pollution and working conditions is because it is cheaper - then if those things are important to you, you make it not cheaper. To paraphrase what one congressman said about the laws to clean up the appalling conditions in the meatpacking industry around the turn of the previous century, "sometimes there are more important goals in public policy than to make everything cheap."

You would think that the left, with its dogged devotion to the Holy Trinity of government, taxation, and regulation, would be all over this, and solidly behind the idea of disincentivizing location-shopping for the purpose of dodging U.S. environmental or labor laws. I mean, ordinarily they are all in favor of it - witness how they applaud their most incompetent subgroup, the California Democrats, continually shooting themselves in the nuts by trying to set nationwide environmental policy. So it is a real mystery why liberals would not be pushing for policies that encourage those goals internationally. Perhaps that Trump fellow was on to something with his tariff idea.

Oh wait, never mind. Orange Man Bad, globalism good. That's why the liberals say it can't be done. Kind of reminiscent of how they beat the climate change drum until they are blue in the face, but refuse to acknowledge that it could be solved right now with existing technology. Seems to me like they just perpetually want something to complain about. "No we can't."

[willy]

Going on how many posts now, and no one can answer straightforward questions.

Here. Let's make it easy. Here is what many blue jean production sites look like overseas. Some of us? Most of us? Are likely wearing the results of this as we read these messages.



1 in 3 denim clothing items in the world is made in the same town in China. The river is so polluted no one uses it anymore. You guys ready for the plant to relocate and open in your home town? Or are you ready to pay $100+ for a pair of jeans?

Appears that there is significant pollution (just like there used to be) for a massive percentage of the steel production overseas...

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&

Everyone ready to pay more for trucks and SUVs to make cleaner steel at home?

A real mess, however: https://www.everlane.com/denim-factory

[Mojouw]

... and this is where government action actually can tip the balance in favor of doing things the less gross and polluting way. If the only reason why industry has migrated to places where they ignore pollution and working conditions is because it is cheaper - then if those things are important to you, you make it not cheaper. To paraphrase what one congressman said about the laws to clean up the appalling conditions in the meatpacking industry around the turn of the previous century, "sometimes there are more important goals in public policy than to make everything cheap."

You would think that the left, with its dogged devotion to the Holy Trinity of government, taxation, and regulation, would be all over this, and solidly behind the idea of disincentivizing location-shopping for the purpose of dodging U.S. environmental or labor laws. I mean, ordinarily they are all in favor of it - witness how they applaud their most incompetent subgroup, the California Democrats, continually shooting themselves in the nuts by trying to set nationwide environmental policy. So it is a real mystery why liberals would not be pushing for policies that encourage those goals internationally. Perhaps that Trump fellow was on to something with his tariff idea.

Oh wait, never mind. Orange Man Bad, globalism good. That's why the liberals say it can't be done. Kind of reminiscent of how they beat the climate change drum until they are blue in the face, but refuse to acknowledge that it could be solved right now with existing technology. Seems to me like they just perpetually want something to complain about. "No we can't."

Not surprising, but you missed the point.

To wield the power of government to tip that balance, you have to increase the amount of dollars spent. Those either come in the form of tax $$$ or in the form of decreased producer margins that are passed on to the consumer. I, for one, totally support all that and have for some time. Will it mean that my paycheck goes a hell of a lot less far than it did before? Absolutely it does.

But I have yet to see the right wing chorus around these parts acknowledge the two sides of the same coin thing going on here. If you move manufacturing home, everything you buy will cost more. Full stop. The end. Pollution and industrial waste will increase in regions of the country. Full stop. The end.

Are both of those something that people are willing to counterbalance with increased manufacturing jobs?

[Mojouw]

A real mess, however: https://www.everlane.com/denim-factory

No doubt. There are several other manufacturers doing similar. Even some of the "big" names have specific lines out that are supposed to be less environmentally impactful.

Quick check, the environmentally friendly jeans are 1.5-3 times as expensive as the typical price.

Since, just judging by posts on here, people get annoyed when gas goes up by fractional percentages...would everyone be willing to pay that type of price hike on most consumer goods?

I have no idea. I would complain about it, but could make it work. I buy a pair of jeans like every 4 years and shoes once in a great while. But individual mileage may vary and I think it is just silly that neither side of the political spectrum talks about any of these parts of the what gets made where debate. It is just a bunch of platitudes and things that can never happen. I remember when John Edwards ran, he promised that he would re-open textile mills in the Carolinas. Like that just isn't gonna work and everyone but the voters knows it.

[willy]

Quick check, the environmentally friendly jeans are 1.5-3 times as expensive as the typical price.
.

Yeah, I wondered but didn't look it up.

[steelreserve]

Not surprising, but you missed the point.

To wield the power of government to tip that balance, you have to increase the amount of dollars spent. Those either come in the form of tax $$$ or in the form of decreased producer margins that are passed on to the consumer. I, for one, totally support all that and have for some time. Will it mean that my paycheck goes a hell of a lot less far than it did before? Absolutely it does.

But I have yet to see the right wing chorus around these parts acknowledge the two sides of the same coin thing going on here. If you move manufacturing home, everything you buy will cost more. Full stop. The end. Pollution and industrial waste will increase in regions of the country. Full stop. The end.

Are both of those something that people are willing to counterbalance with increased manufacturing jobs?

To answer your first question, I at least am willing to pay more for things that are not cheap Chinese junk made by communist slave laborers. If there is an alternative to the Chinese version of something, I already tend to prefer that anyway, simply because I don't like trash-tier junk.

I would also be strongly in favor of relaxing many environmental laws. Much like labor unions, they had their time and place, but they have gone way too far and now do more harm than good. I doubt the pollution and waste would be anything near what you think it would, and in any case I don't give a shit.

[Mojouw]

To answer your first question, I at least am willing to pay more for things that are not cheap Chinese junk made by communist slave laborers. If there is an alternative to the Chinese version of something, I already tend to prefer that anyway, simply because I don't like trash-tier junk.

I would also be strongly in favor of relaxing many environmental laws. Much like labor unions, they had their time and place, but they have gone way too far and now do more harm than good. I doubt the pollution and waste would be anything near what you think it would, and in any case I don't give a shit.

That’s a legitimate and reasonable position.

I think the American public needs to be able to have a conversation about what balance between environmental and manufacturing they’re willing to accept.

I also think that more cash needs injected into directed R&D so maybe that choice doesn’t have to be a stark one.

[willy]

I would also be strongly in favor of relaxing many environmental laws. .........................they had their time and place, but they have gone way too far and now do more harm than good.............................

Amen man. We haven't fucked up the environment enough.

[cubanstogie]

Right. But you can learn enough about a specific part of any one of those things to talk about it beyond reductive hyperbolic statements.

For instance, Petey B appears to mostly offend you because he is gay and has a kid. Or at least you haven't leveled an actual critique related to his policies, agenda, or statements as Transportation Secretary. Or even expressed an understanding of what that position can and can not do to impact whatever it is that you are upset about.

All of those things are well within your capabilities of doing. But you choose not to. As near as I can tell, you are the most angry about Kamela and Petey B both liking dick. So is it Biden and liberals that you are mad at or is it just dicks?

not angry pete plays butt darts or sucks dick, he’s an idiot with no clue.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/buttig...t-of-recession

- - - Updated - - -

total ignorance.

[Mojouw]

not angry pete plays butt darts or sucks dick, he’s an idiot with no clue.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/buttig...t-of-recession

- - - Updated - - -

total ignorance.

Is it? Purchases of consumer goods are at typical holiday season highs throughout most of the past year. Inflation appears linked to low supply and high demand.

I'm not sure that Pete or the Dems can take any credit for any of it...but the fundamentals are there.

Also, at least you are attempting to have an actual conversation with thoughts and ideas and stuff.

[cubanstogie]

Is it? Purchases of consumer goods are at typical holiday season highs throughout most of the past year. Inflation appears linked to low supply and high demand.

I'm not sure that Pete or the Dems can take any credit for any of it...but the fundamentals are there.

Also, at least you are attempting to have an actual conversation with thoughts and ideas and stuff.

here’s another thought I had yesterday while sitting in airport. more of observation actually. Fox news talking about shipping issues and economy, CNN still talking about January 6. I digress, my comment about Pete’s ignorance was pertaining to his comment about Joe leading us out of recession. I would love to her facts to back that up.

[Mojouw]

here’s another thought I had yesterday while sitting in airport. more of observation actually. Fox news talking about shipping issues and economy, CNN still talking about January 6. I digress, my comment about Pete’s ignorance was pertaining to his comment about Joe leading us out of recession. I would love to her facts to back that up.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/its-...s-history.html

Why the economy recovered and if anyone can take credit for it (I suspect not) is a follow-up discussion. But the recession ended.

Now, there are a group of economists that feel we are entering another one...https://www.forbes.com/sites/pedroda...h=4fffb8e01c7b but others do not.

To your observation...don't watch TV news? It is pointless drivel and fills your head with nonsense?

[cubanstogie]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/its-...s-history.html

Why the economy recovered and if anyone can take credit for it (I suspect not) is a follow-up discussion. But the recession ended.

Now, there are a group of economists that feel we are entering another one...https://www.forbes.com/sites/pedroda...h=4fffb8e01c7b but others do not.

To your observation...don't watch TV news? It is pointless drivel and fills your head with nonsense?

I agree, kind of the point I was referring to. You watch fox you’re talking about inflation, cnn the “insurrection “. Now that I’m in Tennessee today don’t think I’ll have that problem, no CNN in sight here. lol

[Steeler-in-west]

Going on how many posts now, and no one can answer straightforward questions.

Here. Let's make it easy. Here is what many blue jean production sites look like overseas. Some of us? Most of us? Are likely wearing the results of this as we read these messages.



1 in 3 denim clothing items in the world is made in the same town in China. The river is so polluted no one uses it anymore. You guys ready for the plant to relocate and open in your home town? Or are you ready to pay $100+ for a pair of jeans?

Appears that there is significant pollution (just like there used to be) for a massive percentage of the steel production overseas...

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-...ormat&fit=max&

Everyone ready to pay more for trucks and SUVs to make cleaner steel at home?

Goods made here would cost more but they would be better quality and not disposable. More expensive then now but you would buy less often so in the end you’re actually ahead financially. In addition wages would be higher for most people with better jobs. The only ones who would lose would be the CEO’s and upper managers and major stockholders, their profit margins would be reduced and more money would make its way to the middle class.

bottom line is that these trade deals benefit the rich only and are terrible for most people overseas who work for peanuts and in squalid conditions and for most people here too who would’ve benefited from all those manufacturing, foreman, middle managerial jobs that all went overseas - of course there would be some environmental challenges but with new technologies there would be less pollution then we had before here, to say nothing of the environmental disasters in China and elsewhere.

It was a joke to make these deals in the first place with countries who’s workers would make a fraction of what Americans make. Manufacturing is basically now gone as Ross Perot predicted. The only way a trade deal was going to work fairly was if the wages and working conditions of all participating countries was comparable. Is it any wonder most of the wealth in this country is now in the hands of just a very small number of individuals?

[Mojouw]

Goods made here would cost more but they would be better quality and not disposable. More expensive then now but you would buy less often so in the end you’re actually ahead financially. In addition wages would be higher for most people with better jobs. The only ones who would lose would be the CEO’s and upper managers and major stockholders, their profit margins would be reduced and more money would make its way to the middle class.

bottom line is that these trade deals benefit the rich only and are terrible for most people overseas who work for peanuts and in squalid conditions and for most people here too who would’ve benefited from all those manufacturing, foreman, middle managerial jobs that all went overseas - of course there would be some environmental challenges but with new technologies there would be less pollution then we had before here, to say nothing of the environmental disasters in China and elsewhere.

It was a joke to make these deals in the first place with countries who’s workers would make a fraction of what Americans make. Manufacturing is basically now gone as Ross Perot predicted. The only way a trade deal was going to work fairly was if the wages and working conditions of all participating countries was comparable. Is it any wonder most of the wealth in this country is now in the hands of just a very small number of individuals?

All potential outcomes.

I just can't wrap my head around the economics of it all every coming into favor from a basic "free market" sorta thing. I don't think many consumers take the long view that you are proposing. Sure, it might be ideal for a durable good like a washing machine or a table saw. Buy it and forget about it...it is going to last forever. But, say, consumer electronics...gone are the days of buying a TV and sitting a wooden console beast in the living room for 12+ years. Technology is adapting and changing so frequently (and you can't repair any of this crap anyways), what is the point of paying a premium for a set that might last longer? Get your 3 years out of a cheaper model and then replace it.

I can not see most consumers when flooded with choices at all price points, choosing the higher cost thing for most products. Again...I could have a skewed take on this because of how I have spent recent years making my individual decisions about value. I also may be underestimating the willingness of the American consumer to pay more for products.

[willy]

[willy]

Goods made here would cost more but they would be better quality .................

What makes you think so? For example, over the last 45 years I have three vehicles from "Detroit", pickups, and at least 6 from Japan. I had problems with an F250, and a Ram 1500, and zero problems with anything from Japan.

[Steeler-in-west]

What makes you think so? For example, over the last 45 years I have three vehicles from "Detroit", pickups, and at least 6 from Japan. I had problems with an F250, and a Ram 1500, and zero problems with anything from Japan.

i'm comparing to goods made in China and third world countries (with cheap labor) not to Japan.

[willy]

My wife and I went into town and visited a shop. When we came out, there was a cop writing out a parking ticket. We went up to him and I said, "Come on man, how about giving a senior citizen a break?" He just ignored us and continued writing the ticket.

I called him an "a**hole." He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn-out tires.

So my wife called him a "s*ithead." He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing more tickets.

This went on for about 20 minutes. The more we abused him, the more tickets he wrote. He finally finished, sneered at us and walked away. Just then our bus arrived, and we got on it and went home.

We always look for cars with Trump stickers. We try to have a little fun each day now that we're retired. It's so important at our age!!”

[Mach1]

[willy]

Just as long as you're not living in the white house.

[silver & black]

My wife and I went into town and visited a shop. When we came out, there was a cop writing out a parking ticket. We went up to him and I said, "Come on man, how about giving a senior citizen a break?" He just ignored us and continued writing the ticket.

I called him an "a**hole." He glared at me and started writing another ticket for having worn-out tires.

So my wife called him a "s*ithead." He finished the second ticket and put it on the windshield with the first. Then he started writing more tickets.

This went on for about 20 minutes. The more we abused him, the more tickets he wrote. He finally finished, sneered at us and walked away. Just then our bus arrived, and we got on it and went home.

We always look for cars with Trump stickers. We try to have a little fun each day now that we're retired. It's so important at our age!!”

Where's your mask???

[willy]

how hilarious

[silver & black]

how hilarious

Why? Don't you believe in wearing your mask so no one else gets Covid?

[st33lersguy]

LOL, even Boston doesn't like Joe

[willy]

We love Joe. The greatest president since Abraham Lincoln.

Crowds Gather In Boston To Celebrate Biden's Presidential Win

[st33lersguy]

We love Joe. The greatest president since Abraham Lincoln.


[/FONT][/COLOR]

From when, November 2020 before Joe had a chance to prove to the world how incompetent he was as President? Nice try though