Fichtner and more let go ....

[W&M_Steeler]

What current NFL defense works without a massive talent advantage? Again, this is not mounting some massive defense of Butler or anything, but this is a constant debate that the defense isn't this or that. However, the things most fans appear to want is some cross of the 86 Bears and the 00 Ravens. Ain't no one doing that anymore. The NFL has changed things to so favor offense that it is ridiculous. But lets leave that aside for now.

I'm not expecting a defense missing some of its stars due to injury to be an elite, all-time great defense. I'm just saying that a defense that still has three All-Pros and several other very good players on the field, especially on the defensive line, should give a better showing against a team starting a second-string offensive line. I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

I think that the Steelers have used too many high round picks on defense during this extended rebuild. I'd rather the Steelers shoot for a good defense that is relatively strong against the run and opportunistic in the pass game than try to create some elite defense full of 1st round draft picks that isn't all that elite in truth and takes a nose dive when one of the players gets injured. Injuries are inevitable, especially on defense. Given the rules changes of the past two decades, I'd rather invest the majority of my picks and money into the offense and have a defense that's mostly interchangable parts.

The biggest thing about the defensive coaching is what seems to be slowly leaking out about how it functions. Butler is basically the linebackers coach with input on game planning. Austin appears to be the secondary coach with an additional focus on preparing players to create turnovers. Dunbar seems responsible for the D line and some elements of the pass rush approach for the OLBs. Tomlin appears to be playing a far larger role in game planning and game-day calling than has been previously been publicly reported.

Taking all that into account...you appear to have a highly split and delegated set of defensive responsibilities. Until Tomlin does not want to function as a secondary DC...this isn't going to be a high profile position that attracts big coaching talent.

I think that's unfortunate, as this system hasn't produced what it should have given all the resources dumped into it over the past several drafts. I wish Tomlin would see the value in having some fresh eyes review the situation. The product on the field hasn't been good enough.

- - - Updated - - -

The Defense was the reason why 2019 was even remotely competitive. That’s why Butler earned another year.

For years and years now we have been waiting for the Offense to get its shit together with a franchise QB, and it never did. The experiment has to stop here.

I'd say it did in 2017. The Steelers' offense wasn't the problem that year. The D couldn't stop the Jags.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

On Smith -- special teams improved this year, and was at times even a positive contributor. I can understand why he wasn't let go this year specifically. Fichtner could be their way to showing Ben that the door is open to leave, but more likely just timing. His contract was up and that's when the Steelers do it.

I don't get the DB coach non-renewal, but it could be other things than performance of the DB's?? OL coach is a rough gig right now, with the line aging in dog-years like it is. I would love to see some old fashioned nasty road grader types, but so long as we have Ben, we are going to need pass-defense first guys, and for whatever reason, that seems to mean finesse. I would expect that the new OC will start to put his stamp on the team going forward, but it will take a few years to get all the pieces in place. A line that can consistently get a push would be high on my list of asks.

The DB coach was redundant. He was hired the year before Teryl Austin (DB coach) became available and I think they did an honorable thing in keeping them both until Bradley's contract was up. Teryl Austin coached great secondaries in Arizona, Seattle and Detroit. All of them were top in league turnovers when he coached them, so him staying over Bradley is expected.

O line is fine. The problem was offensive system and blocking schemes. The Steelers O line appeared at times to look to wall off seams in the defense, rather than gain ground in the run game. Its not just a matter of taking a zone steps, they didnt finish blocks, which is weird scheme to me. If we assume free agents like AV and Feiler are gone, but Pouncey returns, the O line looks like below and will be fine. (Good chance Banner comes back as per a positive comment by him on Twitter)

Okorafor LT, Dotson LG, Pouncey, DeCastro, Banner-RT.

Hawkins may be back in the competition and I wish they kept Derwin Gray from being poached off the practice squad, but a few other projects on the Steelers practice squad, like Legule from Tulane who is a good pass protector and was AAC All Academic team. (intelligence helps on the O line).

[Mojouw]

I'd say it did in 2017. The Steelers' offense wasn't the problem that year. The D couldn't stop the Jags.

I don't think any team playing that set of "run stoppers" at inside linebacker would have stopped anyone. I have no interest in re-litigating that game. I argue that the personnel decisions made every off-season after that game provide a massive amount of insight into what the Steelers think went wrong in that game and what the appropriate fixes were.

Additionally, I don't see how anyone can use the Jags game as evidence of failure and then turn around and argue that there were too many resources put into the defense. If you want to not have a defense whose weakness can be exposed dramtically, you need to have highly skilled players at (at least) key positions. Those dudes cost a ton of FA $$$ or high draft picks.

But we have wandered WAY off-topic for what is intended to be mostly a thread about the coaches that were fired...not those that could be fired.

[W&M_Steeler]

I don't think any team playing that set of "run stoppers" at inside linebacker would have stopped anyone. I have no interest in re-litigating that game. I argue that the personnel decisions made every off-season after that game provide a massive amount of insight into what the Steelers think went wrong in that game and what the appropriate fixes were.

Additionally, I don't see how anyone can use the Jags game as evidence of failure and then turn around and argue that there were too many resources put into the defense. If you want to not have a defense whose weakness can be exposed dramtically, you need to have highly skilled players at (at least) key positions. Those dudes cost a ton of FA $$$ or high draft picks.

But we have wandered WAY off-topic for what is intended to be mostly a thread about the coaches that were fired...not those that could be fired.

Having Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson, and Sean Davis all bust, plus permanently losing Shazier and Dupree blooming really late, really hindered the defensive rebuild and helped contribute to the 2017 defense being worse than it should have been. If you're going to put all of your eggs in one basket for a few years, you better hope that your choices turn out well. I'm still formulating my opinion about all of this, but I'm starting to think that it's simply riskier to try to build a defensive-oriented team than to build an offensive-oriented team given the change in rules focus to favor the offense. You have more room for error and bad injury luck on the offensive side (with the huge exception of QB, of course- the wrong QB can sink your team for years) .

That said, good riddance to Fichtner and Sarrett.

[EzraTank]

Me reading this!



<-- and and AWOMEN!

[tube517]

[Shoes]

Im ok with that, maybe he's the one saying the steelers don't need a TE.

[pczach]

This coaching staff needs a little purge.

There's a lot happening very quickly. I'm sure we're going to be hearing a lot more in coming days.

[EzraTank]

Awesome news! Is Butler next out the door? If your defense loaded with All-Pros can't stop an offense with a 2nd string line when it counts, if your defense has multiple playoff collapses, then maybe your defensive coordinator is not very good...

The only thing I seeing saving him is that he did lose 75% of his starting LBers this year.

[Fire Goodell]

The only thing I seeing saving him is that he did lose 75% of his starting LBers this year.

not to mention 2 of em being pro bowl level guys and another the NFL defensive MVP

[Shoes]

Well this is pretty strange. Tomlin has been calling a lot of the D this year and in past years. What in the hell is butler doing if he still has the title öf DC?

[EzraTank]

What in the hell is butler doing if he still has the title öf DC?

[W&M_Steeler]

The only thing I seeing saving him is that he did lose 75% of his starting LBers this year.

50%. Dupree and Bush. But he still had 3 All-Pros on the field for the playoffs, along with several other very good players against a depleted Browns offense. Marsh was trash, but is that enough to give him a pass? Not in my view.

- - - Updated - - -

not to mention 2 of em being pro bowl level guys and another the NFL defensive MVP

I'm not sure who you're referencing.

[EzraTank]

50%. Dupree and Bush. He still had 3 All-Pros on the field for the playoffs, along with several other very good players. Marsh was trash, but is that enough to give him a pass? Not in my view.

No, down the stretch they lost Dupree, Bush, Williams (COVID19), Spillane and Highsmith (during the playoff game). At one point they were playing a safety for Pete's sake at LB. Like I said in other posts losing Dupree was a Bridge Too Far. With him gone teams could run away from TJ or double team him when they needed to.

[W&M_Steeler]

No, down the stretch they lost Dupree, Bush, Williams (COVID19), Spillane and Highsmith during the playoff game. They were playing a safety for Pete's sake at LB. Like I said in other posts losing Dupree was a Bridge Too Far. With him gone teams could run away from TJ or double team him when they needed to.

Williams was back before the playoffs, right? At the very least he played in the playoff game.

And if you need three All Pros up front to have any semblance of a run defense, what's that say about your scheme and your coaching?

[Shoes]

No, down the stretch they lost Dupree, Bush, Williams (COVID19), Spillane and Highsmith (during the playoff game). At one point they were playing a safety for Pete's sake at LB. Like I said in other posts losing Dupree was a Bridge Too Far. With him gone teams could run away from TJ or double team him when they needed to.

Where is Jason Dong Worilds when you need him.

[EzraTank]

Williams was back before the playoffs, right? At the very least he played in the playoff game.

And if you need three All Pros up front to have any semblance of a run defense, what's that say about your scheme and your coaching?

No I'm saying that during their losing streak they lost most of their LBers. Yes Williams was back but they were still running at 50% with Spillane gone as was Haden. Do you agree that our defense was much different before those two guys went down?

[W&M_Steeler]

No I'm saying that during their losing streak they lost most of their LBers. Yes Williams was back but they were still running at 50% with Spillane gone as was Haden. Do you agree that our defense was much different before those two guys went down?

Spillane was back for the playoff game too, though he didn't look 100%. I wonder if they would have been better off sticking with Williamson.

I don't have much patience for the injury excuse given what the Browns were dealing with that game.

Regardless, looks like he's staying on, so we have to hope for the best. Maybe next year will be a magical year with no injuries on defense.

[BlackAndGold]

I hope they go out and a find a creative offensive mind at OC.

[Dwinsgames]

I hope they go out and a find a creative offensive mind at OC.

if Ben is staying we likely see Canada as OC , if they are trying to push him out then they look outside IMO

[Born2Steel]

I hope they go out and a find a creative offensive mind at OC.

I hope they find a fundamentally sound football coach. This organization has the reputation for long term success and stability. I want that to continue. I don't want some gimmicky offense that works for a couple seasons until teams figure it out. Basic fundamental football still wins the day.

[Craic]

This, honestly, is the first of the last three or so OC coaches that I am happy about being let go. With the previous two, I was okay with them but interested in what else could be done. I had high hopes for Fichtner. They didn't pan out. Hopefully Canada can fill that role.

[BlackAndGold]

Sarrett wasn't that bad of a coach. Guys like Dotson, Chuk, Feiler(at RT) developed and played very well under Sarrett. What was/is needed is an OC that has a scheme change in mind to fix the running game.

Fans point to Munchak leaving for the decline of the o-line. Some context is needed.. Foster aged and retired, Gilbert became injury prone and traded, Pouncey started to age and now DeCastro has started too also, AV has never been much of a run blocker. Le'Veon Bell was a big part of the reason the running game was great, he was a truly special player with insane vision and patients.

The o-line will continue to be retooled in the next 2 years.

[Mojouw]

I hope they find a fundamentally sound football coach. This organization has the reputation for long term success and stability. I want that to continue. I don't want some gimmicky offense that works for a couple seasons until teams figure it out. Basic fundamental football still wins the day.

I feel like the big "missing" elements of the Steelers offense are motion, play-action, and a bit more RPO/College stuff. Basically what Canada was intended to bring and what we saw more of when Rudolph was in.

I would propose that those are (despite what Ben Roethlisberger might say!) fundamental aspects of football.

The one thing I would REALLY like to see the Steelers incorporate (and in a sense return to) is running a number of plays out of the same grouping and alignment. They used to be pretty good at this in Haley's day out of that 3 player bunch/stack. I think this will be super important (not the 3 player stack but running alot of plays out of the same look) in 2021+ because you will no longer have an experienced QB at the helm. More of what the Browns and 49ers do to ease the burden on their QBs.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Sarrett wasn't that bad of a coach. Guys like Dotson, Chuk, Feiler(at RT) developed and played very well under Sarrett. What was/is needed is an OC that has a scheme change in mind to fix the running game.

Fans point to Munchak leaving for the decline of the o-line. Some context is needed.. Foster aged and retired, Gilbert became injury prone and traded, Pouncey started to age and now DeCastro has started too also, AV has never been much of a run blocker. Le'Veon Bell was a big part of the reason the running game was great, he was a truly special player with insane vision and patients.

The o-line will continue to be retooled in the next 2 years.

What did you like about what Sarrett did as an O line coach?

Do you think the Steelers ran similar run plays/offensive type with Bell as RB, as they did after Bell left and Bell just made them look good, but Conner could not?

[Fire Goodell]

I'm not sure who you're referencing.

Bush, Dupree, Watt

Any of those one are big shoes to fill, losing all 3 is insurmountable

[W&M_Steeler]

Bush, Dupree, Watt

Any of those one are big shoes to fill, losing all 3 is insurmountable

When did they lose Watt?

[Born2Steel]

I feel like the big "missing" elements of the Steelers offense are motion, play-action, and a bit more RPO/College stuff. Basically what Canada was intended to bring and what we saw more of when Rudolph was in.

I would propose that those are (despite what Ben Roethlisberger might say!) fundamental aspects of football.

The one thing I would REALLY like to see the Steelers incorporate (and in a sense return to) is running a number of plays out of the same grouping and alignment. They used to be pretty good at this in Haley's day out of that 3 player bunch/stack. I think this will be super important (not the 3 player stack but running alot of plays out of the same look) in 2021+ because you will no longer have an experienced QB at the helm. More of what the Browns and 49ers do to ease the burden on their QBs.

Absolutely. I do think motion and play-action are a fundamental part of pre-snap and post-snap reads. Some QBs are just better at pre-snap reads with/without motion than others so there will be a difference in effectiveness from team to team. Same in post-snap reads with watching LBs/Safeties at the snap. Play-action is not completely dependent on the QB alone though. The defenses are making reads too and play-action takes more than just fake a handoff. The Steelers were just not good at it in recent years. I don't know exactly why, I'm sure there are multiple reasons. Mostly I think it was due to the Fichtner 'throw short/run long' offensive system and play calls. With a more run committed offensive approach maybe play-action can be a successful and viable part of the Steelers offense again.

Agreed I would love to have this option but from how I understand the scheme, which is very little, a successful RPO offense requires a QB that is a threat to run or throw. Even when using a 'bell cow' RB, an RPO suggests the possibility of hand-off, QB run, or play-action pass from the same formations, as you alluded to. I don't see this being run successfully by Ben or Rudolph. Maybe the next guy? I think Tannehill has been a very good RPO QB for the Titans.

[BlackAndGold]

What did you like about what Sarrett did as an O line coach?

Do you think the Steelers ran similar run plays/offensive type with Bell as RB, as they did after Bell left and Bell just made them look good, but Conner could not?

Though I'm not an o-line/scheme expert, I liked how Sarrett developed Dotson, Chuk and Feiler, though Feiler was here under Munchak but Sarrett was just involved as an assistant coach.

I'd have to go back and research some charting but it seems like they played under center a lot more with Bell, which puts the o-line in a better position to open up running holes. Some of that blame goes toward Ben since he doesn't enjoy being under center.

Overall, I'm not going to dismiss the age and decline of the players that that were apart of that group.. AV/Foster/Pouncey/DD/Gilbert were all Pro Bowl caliber players in their prime, two of which were multiple time All-Pros. Conner is a solid back but he isn't Bell, we all watched that man create negative plays into big positives, Conner can't do that. Bell running the ball was like art.

[Fire Goodell]

When did they lose Watt?

some guy named cassius darsh was playing half the game vs cleveland