The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

[DesertSteel]

I appreciate all that Ben has done on the field throughout his career. He's actually had what seems to be two careers. The first half of his career he was an arrogant jerk off the field and very clutch on the field (even though he didn't have gaudy stats). The last half of his career he has been well behaved and humble off the field and a choke artist on the field (sorry but true), even though posting great fantasy numbers.

So, even though these records don't reflect all on Ben, it does have relevance to the Ben conversation. Especially when everyone starts talking about being careful what you wish for and throwing out names like Mark Malone and Bobby Brister. Certainly, there was a dark period behind center.

But let's look at the 10 years before drafting Ben and compare them with the last 10 years with Ben:

1994 to 2003: 95 wins, 64 losses, 1 tie and 7 playoff wins
2011 to 2020: 102 wins, 57 losses, 1 tie and 3 playoff wins

So, the whole, "Move on from Ben and the sky will fall" mentality is a possibility but not probable. For one thing, QBs come out of college much more prepared for the NFL then they were after Bradshaw retired. For another thing, there are different types of QBs that succeed now instead of just the drop back passer. This expands the field of options. And lastly, the emergence of black QBs further expands the number of options, which wasn't the case after Bradshaw retired.

It's time to move forward and I have no trepidation of what might be. And yes I am old enough to live through Mark Malone, et al. Sometimes I think walking past those 6 Lombardi's makes this organization less hungry than those with one or none. It's time to make a bold move in the draft or free agency while the defense is solid. The window is still open without Ben.

[Edman]

Last night was a scathing, but much needed reality check for many Steelers fans. Our Super Bowl window is shut with this current core.

If we need to do specific things to get things going absolutely right on offense, or for Ben to not be complete crap on the field, then it's time to move on. We're in Kordell Stewart territory where we don't know what to expect week after week.

[W&M_Steeler]

I appreciate all that Ben has done on the field throughout his career. He's actually had what seems to be two careers. The first half of his career he was an arrogant jerk off the field and very clutch on the field (even though he didn't have gaudy stats). The last half of his career he has been well behaved and humble off the field and a choke artist on the field (sorry but true), even though posting great fantasy numbers.

So, even though these records don't reflect all on Ben, it does have relevance to the Ben conversation. Especially when everyone starts talking about being careful what you wish for and throwing out names like Mark Malone and Bobby Brister. Certainly, there was a dark period behind center.

But let's look at the 10 years before drafting Ben and compare them with the last 10 years with Ben:

1994 to 2003: 95 wins, 64 losses, 1 tie and 7 playoff wins
2011 to 2020: 102 wins, 57 losses, 1 tie and 3 playoff wins

So, the whole, "Move on from Ben and the sky will fall" mentality is a possibility but not probable. For one thing, QBs come out of college much more prepared for the NFL then they were after Bradshaw retired. For another thing, there are different types of QBs that succeed now instead of just the drop back passer. This expands the field of options. And lastly, the emergence of black QBs further expands the number of options, which wasn't the case after Bradshaw retired.

It's time to move forward and I have no trepidation of what might be. And yes I am old enough to live through Mark Malone, et al. Sometimes I think walking past those 6 Lombardi's makes this organization less hungry than those with one or none. It's time to make a bold move in the draft or free agency while the defense is solid. The window is still open without Ben.

What's your bold move that would work within the confines of the cap?

I think Ben himself is still good enough to win. Last night was a full team meltdown PLUS the Browns playing lights-out, inspired football. How many times can a Defensive Lineman tip a pass, then pirouette and extend like Polamalu to catch an interception a foot off the ground? How many times do our receivers bat catchable balls up in the air like they're playing volleyball? How many times does our starting center launch a snap 30 yards into the backfield?

Ben isn't what he was, and he's too expensive, but I don't think he's finished. I don't really think it would be feasible to cut him without essentially declaring next year to be a cap casualty year, I don't think there are any QBs in the draft that are realistically obtainable who don't also have a big risk of being the next Christian Ponder.

I think the Steelers need to move on from Fichnter. We need an OC who call install a system that can work without needing the hurry-up. We need a modern OC who can scheme mismatches, not some never-was who is Tomlin's buddy. We also need to draft / acquire a RB upgrade, and work on fixing the run game. Take Ben way back to the style of ball he played in 2004/05, before he was needed to carry the team with 60 passes per game. Stop pretending that Diontae Johnson is the next AB and create a passing game that doesn't rely on him. If the Steelers do those things, then I can see the Steelers having at least a good offense next year. I only cut Ben if he's not on board with these types of philosophical changes. But cutting Ben will most like lead to a cap casualty year or two, after which some of our current defensive cogs (especially Watt and Fitz) might be too expensive, and the D-line will be gone.

[DesertSteel]

A free agency QB is probably out of the question with a cap hit from Ben, but a rookie or a year with Mason would probably get Tomlin his patented 8-8 and in 2022 go bold by trading up in the draft (Rattler from OK) or hitting the free agent market.

Ben is a choke artist for the past 10 years. He's good enough to win 9-10 games, but he'll never win another SB. The question is, are the Steelers content with their 6?

[Fire Goodell]

A free agency QB is probably out of the question with a cap hit from Ben, but a rookie or a year with Mason would probably get Tomlin his patented 8-8 and in 2022 go bold by trading up in the draft (Rattler from OK) or hitting the free agent market.

Ben is a choke artist for the past 10 years. He's good enough to win 9-10 games, but he'll never win another SB. The question is, are the Steelers content with their 6?

If they can keep the defense together, I think Mason does better than 8-8

[W&M_Steeler]

A free agency QB is probably out of the question with a cap hit from Ben, but a rookie or a year with Mason would probably get Tomlin his patented 8-8 and in 2022 go bold by trading up in the draft (Rattler from OK) or hitting the free agent market.

Ben is a choke artist for the past 10 years. He's good enough to win 9-10 games, but he'll never win another SB. The question is, are the Steelers content with their 6?

I disagree with your choke artist characterization- the recent December collapses and play-off losses have been whole team shit-shows, not Ben crumbling under pressure like Kordell (a true choke artist), but you're probably right about him not winning another SB. I don't think Tomlin's going to win another one either.

I think Ben gives them their best chance of winning next year. That doesn't mean that I think they're likely to win the Super Bowl next year. So if the Steelers decide to really start-over, like new coach, cut Ben, Pouncey, and a half-dozen other over the hill players, trade Watt and Fitz, and get ready to endure a few years of complete sucking to build a new team through creative destruction, then I could at least understand the idea. But if we're trying to win now (which I think is unlikely to happen), the best option is to keep Ben and try to fix the offense in the ways I described above.

- - - Updated - - -

If they can keep the defense together, I think Mason does better than 8-8

The defense was better in 2019 than this year and Mason looked terrible in 2019. A decent week 17 game this year makes you think Mason is going to step in and win 10+ games? He's a lower tier #2 at best.

[Fire Goodell]

^ I saw improvement. Last year he was terrible because he was maybe a first year starter? What made anyone think Troy Aikman or Terry Bradshaw would be any good after he threw 24 INTs in his first season lol

I'm not saying put all your eggs in one basket but at least let Rudolph compete

[Born2Steel]

In 3 quarters last night Ben threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs. YES! The first quarter was terrible and is what sunk us but that is not the sign of a QB that is washed up.

[W&M_Steeler]

In 3 quarters last night Ben threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs. YES! The first quarter was terrible and is what sunk us but that is not the sign of a QB that is washed up.

And of the interceptions, one was a volleyball set of a tip of a catchable ball by DJ (who is far too unreliable to be as central to this offense as he was this year) and another was an amazing play by the Browns D lineman- sometimes those happen. Not sure what happened on the final INT- route mistake by Ebron? Wouldn't be the first time Ebron had his head up his ass this year.

Last night was one of those nights when nearly everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Those happen far too often these days, usually when the team is overlooking this week's team to focus on next week. I call those "Tomlin specials."

[Mojouw]

In 3 quarters last night Ben threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs. YES! The first quarter was terrible and is what sunk us but that is not the sign of a QB that is washed up.

He was throwing against a soft as warm butter defense playing WAY off receivers. Plus the Browns were down 2 staring CBs and a safety or two as well. Nothing about Ben's performance last night was impressive aside from the fact that he gutted it out and tried to make a valiant comeback. Mentally and emotionally, he's still got it. Physically, not so much.

[Fire Goodell]

In 3 quarters last night Ben threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs. YES! The first quarter was terrible and is what sunk us but that is not the sign of a QB that is washed up.

he was able to move the ball after they called the dogs off. after getting a 28-0 lead they started giving us the short stuff

[st33lersguy]

In 3 quarters last night Ben threw for 500 yards and 4 TDs. YES! The first quarter was terrible and is what sunk us but that is not the sign of a QB that is washed up.

The browns defense is trash AND it was pretty much from playing from behind

[W&M_Steeler]

He was throwing against a soft as warm butter defense playing WAY off receivers. Plus the Browns were down 2 staring CBs and a safety or two as well. Nothing about Ben's performance last night was impressive aside from the fact that he gutted it out and tried to make a valiant comeback. Mentally and emotionally, he's still got it. Physically, not so much.

You'd have to be delusional to think that Ben is still at the top of his game. But I also think you're overstating your case if you think Ben is physically incapable of playing the position at this point. That argument overlooks the fact that for much of the season the offense couldn't accomplish anything unless it was in some form of hurry-up. That doesn't suggest that Ben can't physically play the position anymore- I think he has at least enough left to be a mid-tier QB at this point- it suggests that there's something fundamentally wrong with the offensive design and philosophy.

I'm still not convinced this offense is a Ben problem rather than a Fichtner problem. I see nothing to suggest that Fichtner is an NFL-caliber offensive coordinator. I'd like to see how Ben would play under a different coordinator before I pronounce him finished. The offense looked completely dysfunctional for almost half a season except for when they ditched the short game and reverted back to more classic Ben intermediate distance throws. That's more on the OC than the QB, IMO. But if Ben is the man behind Fichtner, then I think it's time for Ben to go, but for organizational control reasons rather than physical talent reasons.

[Dissolv]

Ben did look much better later in that game. But for all that he gets you, there is an increasing list of things that he cannot do that forces us to be very predictable. The bottom line is can he get you to the Super Bowl next year? I strongly suspect that the Rooney's will give him the shot if he wants it. The very good regular season, despite the stinky ending earns it for him, frankly.

If I wasn't a fan, but was a cold hearted money manager and these were all numbers and not people, I would be tempted to start a purge cycle a little early, to get it over with. In reality, that might not be the best way to deal with so many contract and money issues all at once, but like I said, Ben deserves another year, just on the basis of his 2020 performance, much less his past with the team. But the odds of that resulting in a Super Bowl are not something that I would bet folding money on.

[NCSteeler]

I hate to be that guy, but this is apples and oranges. Those were years where a elite QB wasn't a necessity, RBs were high paid. The current NFL is no longer like that . In the late nineties a team like the Titans would be top dog, now it's MaHomes and Rodgers

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[Born2Steel]

You guys believe the Browns went into the 2nd quarter thinking the game was over, no need to play anymore? Okay.

[steelreserve]

Ben is clearly on the decline, but I think there is more to it than that. You can still win with an aging but serviceable QB.

One thing that's very noticeable is that the team has never had the same killer instinct since the previous cast of characters left - Harrison, Polamalu, Ward, and some others. That was replaced at times with a core of team leaders who were serious and efficient; at other times with selfish clown culture; but never with the same fire and intensity as when they were winning championships. It is intangible, and part of it is the players, part may be the coaching, but it is not the same. Ben was never that kind of out-front fiery team leader, and the more it became "his team," the more that was evident. Conversely, one of the things about Cowher's teams was that despite their obvious flaws, they played with a desperation that got the most out of them.

Also, the loss of Munchak has been a bigger hit than expected, and they are clearly suffering for it. I fear it will be too easy to fall back into the pattern of throwing a ton of high draft picks at the line and hoping that'll fix things, but it doesn't because nobody can put it all together right. That should be a huge priority to address.

It was very difficult to muster a lot of enthusiasm for this season for a variety of reasons, but one was that you always had the sense that despite the good start, you were just waiting for the inevitability of an ending like this. I hope next season marks a return to better things.

[Mojouw]

You'd have to be delusional to think that Ben is still at the top of his game. But I also think you're overstating your case if you think Ben is physically incapable of playing the position at this point. That argument overlooks the fact that for much of the season the offense couldn't accomplish anything unless it was in some form of hurry-up. That doesn't suggest that Ben can't physically play the position anymore- I think he has at least enough left to be a mid-tier QB at this point- it suggests that there's something fundamentally wrong with the offensive design and philosophy.

I'm still not convinced this offense is a Ben problem rather than a Fichtner problem. I see nothing to suggest that Fichtner is an NFL-caliber offensive coordinator. I'd like to see how Ben would play under a different coordinator before I pronounce him finished. The offense looked completely dysfunctional for almost half a season except for when they ditched the short game and reverted back to more classic Ben intermediate distance throws. That's more on the OC than the QB, IMO. But if Ben is the man behind Fichtner, then I think it's time for Ben to go, but for organizational control reasons rather than physical talent reasons.

Here is the thing, Ben is a mid-tier at best QB now. And this is what that looks like.

I think that Fichtner isn't helping anything. But I honestly believe that the short passing offense was not a bug but a feature to protect a physically diminished QB who can no longer take hits and reliably complete intermediate and deep routes in the NFL. Ben doesn't use his lower half at all anymore in his throws. He misses throws he used to make. The short passing game allowed Ben to not have to hit specific narrow windows and to not have to use his legs but just throw arm darts. Look at the difference in playcalls when Rudolph was playing last week.

Everyone, in my (likely flawed) opinion has this equation backwards. Ben isn't being held back by Fichtner. Fichtner is being limited in what he calls by Ben's diminished capacity. Now, Fichtner still needs to be shown the door. But Ben can not throw intermediate and deep with any consistency and reliability any longer. At least, that is my belief. And I think he knows it.

[W&M_Steeler]

Here is the thing, Ben is a mid-tier at best QB now. And this is what that looks like.

I think that Fichtner isn't helping anything. But I honestly believe that the short passing offense was not a bug but a feature to protect a physically diminished QB who can no longer take hits and reliably complete intermediate and deep routes in the NFL. Ben doesn't use his lower half at all anymore in his throws. He misses throws he used to make. The short passing game allowed Ben to not have to hit specific narrow windows and to not have to use his legs but just throw arm darts. Look at the difference in playcalls when Rudolph was playing last week.

Everyone, in my (likely flawed) opinion has this equation backwards. Ben isn't being held back by Fichtner. Fichtner is being limited in what he calls by Ben's diminished capacity. Now, Fichtner still needs to be shown the door. But Ben can not throw intermediate and deep with any consistency and reliability any longer. At least, that is my belief. And I think he knows it.

I think it's hard for fans to discern what the true root cause of the failure it. But if I had to put money on it, I'd say it was Fichtner's bad offense and various personnel problems (deteriorating OL, worse than average RBs and TEs, unreliable receiver DJ being focal point of offense) rather than Ben's physical limitations, and my basis for saying so is that he could still make those throws when they abandoned the horizontal passing game. If Ben were truly physically shot, that Indy win wouldn't have happened, for example.

In order to win a Super Bowl, Ben needs either his version of 1998 Terrell Davis to carry most of the load or his version of the 2015 Broncos Defense. If he had either of those, then I think Ben could still play well enough to win. Unfortunately, I don't see either happening.

[Fire Goodell]

You guys believe the Browns went into the 2nd quarter thinking the game was over, no need to play anymore? Okay.

No, but they were backing off and allowing the short passes, preventing quick scores to drain the clock, and counting on the accident-prone Steelers offense to make mistakes (which happened)

[W&M_Steeler]

Ben is clearly on the decline, but I think there is more to it than that. You can still win with an aging but serviceable QB.

One thing that's very noticeable is that the team has never had the same killer instinct since the previous cast of characters left - Harrison, Polamalu, Ward, and some others. That was replaced at times with a core of team leaders who were serious and efficient; at other times with selfish clown culture; but never with the same fire and intensity as when they were winning championships. It is intangible, and part of it is the players, part may be the coaching, but it is not the same. Ben was never that kind of out-front fiery team leader, and the more it became "his team," the more that was evident. Conversely, one of the things about Cowher's teams was that despite their obvious flaws, they played with a desperation that got the most out of them.

Also, the loss of Munchak has been a bigger hit than expected, and they are clearly suffering for it. I fear it will be too easy to fall back into the pattern of throwing a ton of high draft picks at the line and hoping that'll fix things, but it doesn't because nobody can put it all together right. That should be a huge priority to address.

It was very difficult to muster a lot of enthusiasm for this season for a variety of reasons, but one was that you always had the sense that despite the good start, you were just waiting for the inevitability of an ending like this. I hope next season marks a return to better things.

Good post. I think that this year carried with it the sense of doom because we have had four straight disappointing years. I think such a streak has to stem from coaching:

-2017: Tomlin special- overlooking your opponent, coming out flat, and laying an egg at home in the divisional round against the fucking Bortles Jags. Yes, I know that losing Shazier really hurt. The Steelers' offense was good enough to overcome that, though, and should have.

-2018: Infuriating and inexplicable late season meltdown that started with the weird Broncos game and included the horrific loss to the Raiders. Inexcusable.

-2019: I gave Tomlin & Co. a pass last year because I didn't think they had NFL level quarterbacking. Now I wonder how much of last year's offensive quagmire was the result of a fundamentally shitty offensive philosophy and an incompetent OC.

-2020: Like a combination of 2017 and 2018. Defensive injuries weaken the defense, leading to another December collapse featuring a horrific loss to the crippled Bengals. The Steelers only made the playoffs because they won enough to squeak in despite the December collapse. Once in, they overlooked and disrespected their opponent only to lose a sloppy, embarrassing game at home.

[Six Rings]

What's your bold move that would work within the confines of the cap?

I think Ben himself is still good enough to win. Last night was a full team meltdown PLUS the Browns playing lights-out, inspired football. How many times can a Defensive Lineman tip a pass, then pirouette and extend like Polamalu to catch an interception a foot off the ground? How many times do our receivers bat catchable balls up in the air like they're playing volleyball? How many times does our starting center launch a snap 30 yards into the backfield?

Ben isn't what he was, and he's too expensive, but I don't think he's finished. I don't really think it would be feasible to cut him without essentially declaring next year to be a cap casualty year, I don't think there are any QBs in the draft that are realistically obtainable who don't also have a big risk of being the next Christian Ponder.

I think the Steelers need to move on from Fichnter. We need an OC who call install a system that can work without needing the hurry-up. We need a modern OC who can scheme mismatches, not some never-was who is Tomlin's buddy. We also need to draft / acquire a RB upgrade, and work on fixing the run game. Take Ben way back to the style of ball he played in 2004/05, before he was needed to carry the team with 60 passes per game. Stop pretending that Diontae Johnson is the next AB and create a passing game that doesn't rely on him. If the Steelers do those things, then I can see the Steelers having at least a good offense next year. I only cut Ben if he's not on board with these types of philosophical changes. But cutting Ben will most like lead to a cap casualty year or two, after which some of our current defensive cogs (especially Watt and Fitz) might be too expensive, and the D-line will be gone.

But let's look at the 10 years before drafting Ben and compare them with the last 10 years with Ben:

1994 to 2003: 95 wins, 64 losses, 1 tie and 7 playoff wins
2011 to 2020: 102 wins, 57 losses, 1 tie and 3 playoff wins

Looking at the bold type, Cowher was amazing to win 7 times in the playoffs with guys like O'Donnell. Stewart, Maddox et al.

Tomin who always had Ben squandered away Ben's prime.

I think Ben himself knowshe's not worth 41 million. If he wants to play and see his team do well, give us the home town discount and play for 25 million, otherwise be cut. The image of Ben crying on the Bench with his best friend on the team with ( Pouncey ) him, also knowing he's way over paid and perhaps finished was telling.

Any way you look at it, QB is key and we need a good one at the right price. We do not have that. Time try and fix things. I'm 100% with you on the OC, and think it's time for Tomlin to exit either NOW, or we'll see what type of coach he is next season and get a high draft pick from that. Then he can exit in 2022. Rebuild. Usually I wait until camp closes before a prediction on our record. This year, I do not need to wait. We are up against the cap, have a ton of free agents leaving, and aging players who are over paid + A killer schedule. I see 7-9, maybe worse.

This Tomlin coached team, delegated to Randy F. calling the offense is 1-5 in its last six games. That is not a fluke It's a 6 game sample and QB, and Center are not getting better for us, they are getting worse.

Thanks for the memories guys, all players get old. You're old and expensive. Any good GM would move on.

I take a new head coach in 2022, and al those comp picks from Dupree, Ju-Ju, Feiler, and others.

Take out lumps in 2021. Emerge with cap space and lots of draft picks. To coin a phrase from a popular TV show, this is the way.

[Fire Goodell]

On thing about Ben is even a few years ago, when he rolled out of the pocket and extended plays, you had to get excited knowing that there was a good chance he'd find someone downfield and make a huge play. Now, you can pretty much count on if that same thing happens, he'll miss a receiver downfield by miles and it's either incomplete or intercepted. He's now pretty much an average to average-low tier qb. He doesn't have what made him great over the years.

[Mojouw]

I think it's hard for fans to discern what the true root cause of the failure it. But if I had to put money on it, I'd say it was Fichtner's bad offense and various personnel problems (deteriorating OL, worse than average RBs and TEs, unreliable receiver DJ being focal point of offense) rather than Ben's physical limitations, and my basis for saying so is that he could still make those throws when they abandoned the horizontal passing game. If Ben were truly physically shot, that Indy win wouldn't have happened, for example.

In order to win a Super Bowl, Ben needs either his version of 1998 Terrell Davis to carry most of the load or his version of the 2015 Broncos Defense. If he had either of those, then I think Ben could still play well enough to win. Unfortunately, I don't see either happening.

Here is the thing I can not shake, bad placement on throws over and over again. Two examples from last night:

1. The INT that DJ tipped. Yes, I know that it hit DJ in the hands, the most unreliable place to hit him. But it was high and away. DJ was running right to left and the ball was high and tailing left. That ball is a foot lower and on his front side, he catches and runs with it. This has been a recurring problem with Ben all year. I don't know all the specifics, but I have read that when QBs mechanics start to fail them, throwing high is a sign.

2. The broken up 2 point conversion to Juju in the 4th quarter. Now, granted it was a not great play call, but that pass was to his inside shoulder and chest high, allowing the defender to come through and make a play on the ball. If that ball was to his outside shoulder and head high, Juju has a chance (maybe not a good one) to use his body to wall off the DB and catch the pass.

Maybe I am picking nits and creating unrealistic expectations for ball placement by a QB. But I feel like, even on passes that have worked in 2002, Ben's ability to hit WRs in stride and lead them away from DBs through precise placement of the pass has basically evaporated. Now is that inexperienced WRs not doing the little things right on their end? Or is it the QB not being physically and mechanically sound enough to do it from his end? I tend to say the latter, as to my totally untrained eye, Ben's lower half looks a hot mess when he throws in 2020.

[Six Rings]

On thing about Ben is even a few years ago, when he rolled out of the pocket and extended plays, you had to get excited knowing that there was a good chance he'd find someone downfield and make a huge play. Now, you can pretty much count on if that same thing happens, he'll miss a receiver downfield by miles and it's either incomplete or intercepted. He's now pretty much an average to average-low tier qb

I'd say he's still a top 12-16 type of QB, good enough to win with. The problem is our WR and TE's with those drops and lack of running game to support him. Either way, he's not worth 41 million next year on the cap. No way.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I appreciate all that Ben has done on the field throughout his career. He's actually had what seems to be two careers. The first half of his career he was an arrogant jerk off the field and very clutch on the field (even though he didn't have gaudy stats). The last half of his career he has been well behaved and humble off the field and a choke artist on the field (sorry but true), even though posting great fantasy numbers.

So, even though these records don't reflect all on Ben, it does have relevance to the Ben conversation. Especially when everyone starts talking about being careful what you wish for and throwing out names like Mark Malone and Bobby Brister. Certainly, there was a dark period behind center.

But let's look at the 10 years before drafting Ben and compare them with the last 10 years with Ben:

1994 to 2003: 95 wins, 64 losses, 1 tie and 7 playoff wins
2011 to 2020: 102 wins, 57 losses, 1 tie and 3 playoff wins

So, the whole, "Move on from Ben and the sky will fall" mentality is a possibility but not probable. For one thing, QBs come out of college much more prepared for the NFL then they were after Bradshaw retired. For another thing, there are different types of QBs that succeed now instead of just the drop back passer. This expands the field of options. And lastly, the emergence of black QBs further expands the number of options, which wasn't the case after Bradshaw retired.

It's time to move forward and I have no trepidation of what might be. And yes I am old enough to live through Mark Malone, et al. Sometimes I think walking past those 6 Lombardi's makes this organization less hungry than those with one or none. It's time to make a bold move in the draft or free agency while the defense is solid. The window is still open without Ben.

Well put. I really enjoyed that '84 team with Mark Malone, John Stallworth, Frank Pollard and a couple rookies in Walter Abercrombie and Louis Lipps. Good team football, defense, run game, Stallworth was 1,300 yard receiver. Got to the AFCCG and lost to Marino and the Dolphins.

The Steelers would not find another franchise QB for 20 more years. Still doesnt mean they didnt field some great teams. Ben is like a carton of milk past its best/before date. Time to get a fresh one.

[W&M_Steeler]

On thing about Ben is even a few years ago, when he rolled out of the pocket and extended plays, you had to get excited knowing that there was a good chance he'd find someone downfield and make a huge play. Now, you can pretty much count on if that same thing happens, he'll miss a receiver downfield by miles and it's either incomplete or intercepted. He's now pretty much an average to average-low tier qb

I also think that Ben is missing his security blanket. He always used to have reliable go-to guys when he needed to make something happen: Hines Ward, Heath Miller, AB. He tried to turn DJ and Ebron into AB and Heath this year, and it just didn't work. It's a damn shame that AB wasn't merely a normal NFL WR Diva level crazy instead of batshit insane. If AB were still on the team, I think the Steelers win last night. I bet he would have caught the ball that DJ batted up in the air, for example. This was Ben's first year in a long time without AB, and he never really got into a rhythm with any of his receivers (part of that is probably due to practice limitations).

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say he's still a top 12-16 type of QB, good enough to win with. The problem is our WR and TE's with those drops and lack of running game to support him. Either way, he's not worth 41 million next year on the cap. No way.

Great post. I completely agree, and I see no way he'll be a $41 million cap hit next season. I bet he signs an extension that is structured for cap relief (and might even have a pay reduction). Either that, or the Steelers induce Ben's retirement by cutting Pouncey (a move that needs to be made IMO).

[DesertSteel]

I disagree with your choke artist characterization

Give me the list of games that mattered where Ben came up clutch over the past 10 years. Three playoff wins in 10 years for a HOF QB is not good. Both Jax and the Browns losses were majorly on Ben's shoulders.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Here is the thing I can not shake, bad placement on throws over and over again. Two examples from last night:

1. The INT that DJ tipped. Yes, I know that it hit DJ in the hands, the most unreliable place to hit him. But it was high and away. DJ was running right to left and the ball was high and tailing left. That ball is a foot lower and on his front side, he catches and runs with it. This has been a recurring problem with Ben all year. I don't know all the specifics, but I have read that when QBs mechanics start to fail them, throwing high is a sign.

2. The broken up 2 point conversion to Juju in the 4th quarter. Now, granted it was a not great play call, but that pass was to his inside shoulder and chest high, allowing the defender to come through and make a play on the ball. If that ball was to his outside shoulder and head high, Juju has a chance (maybe not a good one) to use his body to wall off the DB and catch the pass.

Maybe I am picking nits and creating unrealistic expectations for ball placement by a QB. But I feel like, even on passes that have worked in 2002, Ben's ability to hit WRs in stride and lead them away from DBs through precise placement of the pass has basically evaporated. Now is that inexperienced WRs not doing the little things right on their end? Or is it the QB not being physically and mechanically sound enough to do it from his end? I tend to say the latter, as to my totally untrained eye, Ben's lower half looks a hot mess when he throws in 2020.

You are 100% correct. Not nitpicking at all. Lack of accuracy, lack of consistent ball placement.

I will even add the glaring miss of Ebron in the left corner of the end zone, that beat his man on an out route for a sure TD and Ben over threw him. The good Ben just steps and throws that in the numbers to Ebron for a TD, not overthrow the 6'5" TE high and away.

Fans and management need to stop being sentimental and realize that Ben's best football is behind him, far behind him. Kirk Cousins is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger at this point. People need to realize that is the reality.

[DesertSteel]

I know how to be a Ben apologist. I was one for years. But c'mon with the idea that Ben played good last night. 4 interceptions and for the one that was tipped, there were others that the DB dropped. He was throwing at a soft defense and choked early and late.

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Fans and management need to stop being sentimental and realize that Ben's best football is behind him, far behind him. Kirk Cousins is a better QB than Ben Roethlisberger at this point. People need to realize that is the reality.

On any realistic ranking, Ben is around #20-22 of current QBs.