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Thread: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I’m glad we can mostly agree on this. The Chargers moved on from Rivers with a bridge QB and a draft pick that many thought was a reach. Are they sorry for doing it? Now, I wish we could have a Justin Herbert. He may end up as good as Mahomes. But my point is they recognized it was time to move forward and they had no certainty in what was next. They had the 6th pick but that would only get them the third QB on the board. He was viewed as developmental. Who knows where our next QB is coming from. The reality is that Ben is gone either this year or next. It’s time for the org to have a plan in hand.
    Forgive the long post:

    Yes, we certainly agree on that. I think that's a fairly unremarkable point that nearly all Steelers fans agree with. Ben's near the end of the line- the questions are do we move on from him this year, next year, or the year after and, depending on the time frame, how should the Steelers proceed? Those are debatable, and, while people would disagree on the details, most plans would probably be at least reasonable. I think that at best we could have an end of career Elway situation with Ben, where Ben plays like a savvy vet with physical skills that have deteriorated to make him a mid-tier QB but has a good enough cast around him to make a Super Bowl run. I think that those odds are slim given my frustration with the coaching staff, the problems with the offensive line and running game, and a defense that is already aging on the DL and about to lose some key players to free agency, but I still think it's possible. But I don't think people who want a fresh start are crazy. I am skeptical of the argument that Ben alone is holding this team back right now, though, and I don't think Mason Rudolph is the key to a 2021 Super Bowl victory.

    Where we vehemently disagree, however, is whether Ben has held the team back or been a major cause of the past 10 years of disappointment. You're not the only one who has made that argument in this thread- Edman has too. I am going to do a quick 10 season rundown to rebut. This is mostly from memory, so I would be glad to see others provide their input about points I have forgotten.

    2010: Steelers lose to Packers in Super Bowl XLV. This postseason is where the Steelers' recent tendency to start playoff games ice cold and create a huge deficit to have to climb out of began. The Steelers fell way behind in the divisional against Baltimore but were able to climb out of the hole and win. The Steelers had a decent game against the Jets(!) in the AFCC game, unfortunately losing rookie Pouncey in the process. Steelers, slight underdogs, once again dug a huge hole for themselves in the Superbowl (21-3), including a pick-6 by Roethlisberger when Kemoeatu stepped on him while Ben was throwing the pass from the endzone. Steelers start to fight their way back and make it close in the second half. Tomlin makes a very questionable call to go for a 54-yard field goal on 4th and short in the second half, which represented a career long for Suisham and one he missed by a mile. Later, the Pouncey injury bit the Steelers in the ass when Legursky whiffs on his block, Mendenhall gets destroyed as he receives his handoff and fumbles, the Packers recover and then have a TD drive. Steelers D cannot generate a turnover (common theme). This game could have been a Packers blow-out, but the Packers receivers have a terrible case of the drops. Ben had an ugly first half but a much better second half (common theme), but Rodgers outplayed him.

    2011: Last gasp of the 2000s defense. This was the infamous Tebow bowl, the first truly embarrassing playoff loss of the Tomlin era. Steelers lose Mendenhall to injury in the last game of the season and had to roll into the playoffs with Isaac Redman as the starter. No Ryan Clark because of Denver sickle cell issues. Ben played injured. Pouncey was injured, and Legursky had a bad snap taking the Steelers out of field goal range in the first half. Max Starks left the game with an injury, as did Casey Hampton and Brett Keisel. Steelers couldn't overcome the injuries, and the defense allowed the Broncos to hang around until Tebow put a stake through their hearts. Losing to borderline NFL QBs has since become a time-honored Steelers tradition, but the Tebow bowl sticks out as an early trendsetter. Ben had a mediocre game.

    2012: Steelers go 8-8 and miss the playoffs. Had the Steelers managed to beat either the Browns at home in November (that Browns team finished 5-11, but beat the Steelers due to the Steelers 8(!!!) turnovers in a Charlie Batch start) or the injury depleted Chargers in Pittsburgh in December (when that Chargers team, which finished 7-9, was starting 3 street free agents on the O-line), the Steelers would have made the playoffs as a wildcard. Still, this was a rebuilding season, and Ben missed a few games with injuries. The RB corps was as bad in 2012 as it was in 2020, the O-line was still a work in progress, and the defense was in rebuild.

    2013: Steelers go 8-8 and miss the playoffs. This was a rebuilding year, and probably the worst the Steelers were talent wise in the entire decade. Pouncey missed the season due to DeCastro taking out his knee in the season opener. Still, had the Steelers beat the Raiders (who finished 4-12), the Steelers would have made the playoffs as a wildcard.

    2014: Ben has the best regular season of his career (one that would have had him in MVP contention most years). Bell is in his prime, as is AB. Rookie Martavis Bryant emerges as a deep threat. The Steelers win the AFC North. Neverthless, they miss the 1st round bye because of inexplicable losses to terrible teams. The Steelers lose at home to the rookie Mike Glennon lead Bucs, a team that finished 2-14, and in the Meadowlands to the Jets, a team that finished 4-12. The Steelers, playing for seeding in the last game of the season due to those hideous losses, lend up starting and losing Le'veon Bell for the playoffs due to injury. Unfortunately, Tomlin & Co. have completely botched the RB position- kicking LeGarrett Bount off the team earlier in the year but never thinking to replace him. Instead they are forced to sign and start(!) Ben Tate in the wildcard round of the playoffs at home against a tough Ravens team that had already beaten them once that season and barely lost the second game. The Steelers' offense was one dimensional as a result, Ben played ok but not transcendent, the defense couldn't stop Flacco, and the season ended in disappointment.

    2015: The Steelers lose Leveon Bell midseason, but replace him with DeAngelo Williams and don't miss a beat (and arguably improve). Steelers lose both games to the Ravens that year despite the fact that this Ravens team only managed a 5-11 record, resulting in the Steelers not winning the AFCN. Unfortunately, Williams himself gets injured in Week 17, forcing the Steelers to go into the playoffs with Fitzgerald Toussant and Jordan Todman. They end up having to play in the wildcard round against a good Bengals team that had won the North and had already beaten the Steelers once that year. The Steelers start out well, holding a 15-0 lead going into the 4th Quarter. Ben suffers a shoulder injury, and Landry Jones has to step in. The Bengals mount a ferocious comeback that the Steelers can't answer, forcing an injured Ben back into the game. Ben can barely throw, but moves the ball down the field. Then Burfict gives AB head trauma (possibly changing the trajectory of AB's career?) , the benches clear, Joey Porter contributes to another Steelers playoff win by baiting Pacman Jones into an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty, and the Steelers win with a last second field goal.

    The injury depleted Steelers then go to face eventual Super Bowl champion Denver in Denver. Ben plays with a shoulder injury, without AB, and relying on the same terrible Fitz-Todman RB group. Nevertheless, Ben has a good game throwing to the likes of Markus Wheaton, Sammie Coates, and DHB, and the Steelers have a narrow lead in the 4th quarter. Fitz then fumbles on what might have been the game-winning drive, and the Broncos manage to put the game away with a touchdown. Once again, the Steelers Defense fails to produce a turnover in a playoff loss.

    2016: The Steelers WR corps falls apart. Martavis Bryant gets suspended for the season for drugs, Markus Wheaton is largely ineffective and injured, so the Steelers end up having AB and a group of JAGs at best (Eli Rodgers, Sammie Coates, DHB). The Steelers don't have any truly embarrasing losses during the season (worst loss was in Philly to an Eagles team that would finish 7-9). The Steelers win convincingly against the Dolphins, then beat KC in KC in a close game. Bell gets dinged up in the playoffs, and WR injuries / underperformance leads to CFL-level player Cobi Hamilton starting a playoff game at WR for the Steelers. Bell ends up leaving the game early in the first half. The Patriots were the better team and simply outmatched the Steelers at every level. The coaches trot out the same stale defense they had used against Tom Brady for 15 years and, as anyone with a brain would have expected, Tom Brady eats them alive. Needless to say, the Steelers D did not force a turnover. The Patriots toyed with the Steelers most of the game, and the result was never in question. The Patriots could have scored 60 points if they wanted to. For the first time ever, I turned off a Steelers playoff game before it was over, furious that the Steelers didn't try something different on D knowing- KNOWING- their usual approach would fail. That was when I first wanted coaching changes. Ben played a decent game, but the depleted Steelers offense had essentially no chance against the eventual Super Bowl champion Patriots.

    2017: The last gasp of the mid-2010s Killer B Steelers. For the first and only time, the Steelers had Bell, AB, and Bryant all season (plus rookie JuJu!). The Steelers went 13-3, winning the north, but still had an embarrassing loss on the road to the Mike Glennon Bears (a team that went 5-11) despite still having Shazier, a loss that cost them the #1 seed. The Steelers lost Shazier permanently in the middle of the season, and the Defense never really adjusted or recovered.

    The Steelers lost the infamous Jesse James non-catch catch game to the Patriots, then, once in the playoffs, overlooked the Jags (despite having already lost to them once) because they were so set on revenge. This lead to another classic slow start clusterfuck playoff game. The defense gave up two long TD drives, Ben threw a pick to set up short field and another TD drive, and Ben suffered a strip sack fumble resulting in a 21 point Jags lead midway through the 2nd quarter. Only then did the Steelers' O wake up- and when it woke up, it went off. 5 Roethlisberger TD passes, 1 Bell TD run. 42 total points. But that wasn't enough because the Defense allowed a Blake Bortles led Jags team to walk over them at will. The Defense couldn't make a stop to save the season, nor could it force a turnover.

    Losing Shazier was a blow to be sure, but losing one player should not render a defense completely ineffective. The Steelers had half a season to adjust but couldn't. This is where the mid-2010s high round defensive busts Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golson, and Sean Davis were most keenly felt. They should have been difference makers, or at least solid starters, by now. They weren't. After this embarrassment, the Steelers keep the D coordinator (despite the second straight playoff defensive collapse) but fired the O-coordinator. While I was glad to see Haley go (less glad in retrospect now that I've seen the Fichtner offense), the Defensive staff should also have been cleared out. It wasn't, and we still have Butler-ball to this day (though reports say that Tomlin is calling plays).

    To be continued...
    Last edited by W&M_Steeler; 01-13-2021 at 07:48 PM.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Again, forgive the long post. I apologize, but I have found it cathartic to write things out. Thank you for bearing with me- it's a good way for me to dissipate my bitter, angry fan energy that still lingers from Sunday:

    2018: The disastrous end of the Killer Bs. The locker room culture turned completely toxic. Bell held out the entire season. AB's insanity became uncontrollable. The season started poorly Conner, Bell's replacement, fumbled away a win in the 4th quarter of the opening game against the Browns. Had that tie been a win, the Steelers would have made the playoffs. The Steelers seemingly recovered and had a respectable 7-2-1 record going into a game at Denver. Then the wheels came off:

    The Steelers looked to be dominating the Broncos early when JAG Xavier "X-Man" Grimble wanted to showboat and crush a Broncos defender en route to a TD as Vance MacDonald had earlier that year in Tampa. Unfortunately, X-man is no mutant, and the Broncos safety crushed him and forced a fumble, resulting in a touchback. The Steelers kept coming back, only to step on their own dicks. Conner had another crucial fumble. Boswell had a blocked FG attempt. And Ben threw a game-ending interception trying to force the ball to AB in the endzone. The Broncos finished the season 6-10. The Steelers lost a close one next week at home against the Chargers, but they a good team that year so not a horrible loss. Ben lead a late game TD drive to tie the score 30-30, but the Chargers ended with a game-winning FG drive.

    After the Chargers game came one of the worst and most consequential losses of the decade- a loss to a bad Raiders team in Oakland (isn't it weird how the same teams seem to bite the Steelers over and over?) Ben was injured during the game, leaving at halftime with the Steelers winning 14-10. Dobbs played the 3rd quarter and did nothing. Tomlin ended up putting Ben back in during the 4th quarter after the Raiders took the lead 17-14 (Tomlin said after the game that Ben could have returned sooner. Apparently, Tomlin decided that the Steelers could beat the Raiders without him, once again overlooking an inferior team despite the fact that that team was hanging around. Ben came back and lead a TD drive, putting the Steelers up 21-17. The Raiders then responded with a TD drive (another Steelers defensive collapse when a stand was desperately needed). Tomlin infamously botched clock management of this drive, depriving the Steelers of much to to mount a response. The game ended when Boswell, who was injured and had missed a FG earlier in the game, slipped and fell on a game-tying attempt. The Steelers were now on the outside looking in. The Raiders finished 4-12.

    The rest of season was a desperate attempt by the Steelers to salvage a playoff berth in the face of an extremely tough schedule. Miracle of miracles, the Steelers finally managed to beat their nemesis the Patriots. That win would be hollow, however, as the Steelers lost the next week in New Orleans to what would be the #1 seed Saints. The Steelers put up a valiant effort and nearly won in the face of some horrific officiating, but the Steelers came up just short, with the loss sealed by a Juju fumble on a second-effort, ending the chances of a heroic comeback attempt. The Steelers beat the Bengals the next week, but too little too late- they needed help to get in the playoffs but didn't get it. The losses to the Broncos and Raiders, and the tie to the Browns, cost the Steelers the season. To add insult to injury, the Steelers best coach- Munchak- decided to leave the madhouse. Tomlin should have been shown the door right behind him after that collapse (on top of the 2017 debacle).

    2019: An aborted season. Ben played for six quarters. The offense was completely moribund, with neither Mason nor Duck looking like NFL QBs. The lone bright spot was acquiring Minkah. He provided a boost mid-season, and the Steelers D became a turnover generating powerhouse. That boost fizzled by the end of the season, and the team could go nowhere without a functional offense. I gave the coaches a pass for 2019, though having seen 2020 I now question how much of the offensive problems were Fichtner's fault rather than Mason / Duck's.

    2020: A hot start turned into another pathetic collapse. The defense started out well, although not what it was in 2019. Bad QBs once again gave the Steelers more trouble than they should have, with Jeff Driskell nearly pulling off a win and with the Wentz- Travis Fulgham connection gashing the Steelers D (which was still fully healthy at that point). The Defense quality steadily declined with injury. Bush was lost midseason, then his replacement Spillane for the last quarter. The Steelers made the Cowboys 4th string QB look like an All-Pro. Nevertheless, the Steelers managed to win close games against bad opponents, something prior iterations tended not to do. Everything changed with the Ravens "Thanksgiving" game. The constant rescheduling seemed to get in the Steelers head. The Steelers barely won the Wednesday afternoon classic against the COVID-ravaged Ravens. To make matters worse, late-blooming star Bud Dupree tore his ACL and the Ravens exposed how to stop the Steelers offense. The next three games were pathetic, with the offense completely stalled, the run game non-existent, and the defense looking pedestrian despite having 3 All-pros still healthy. Rock bottom was losing to the lowly, injured Bengals. The Steelers managed to snap out of it temporarily in the second half of the Colts game, with the defense actually making some key stops and Ben leading a 2nd half rally clinching the win and the division.

    We all know what happened in the playoff game- the familiar slow start shit show. Pouncey gifted the Browns a TD, the Defense gave up a long TD drive, Ben and DJ helped set the Browns up with two more short fields, the D couldn't make a stand to save the season, and the 1st Quarter ended 28-0. The rest of the game was desperate catch-up, with the Steelers scoring points but the defense not making enough stops and forcing zero turnovers despite the Browns starting a 2nd-string O-line and the Steelers Defense featuring 3 All pros. To top things off, Tomlin called two questionable punts. Yes, there were defensive injuries for the Steelers, but the defensive personnel who were on the field were better than most Steelers defenses of the decade and should have been enough to beat a COVID-depleted Browns team. Another season ends with collapse and bitter disappointment. Will the Defensive side of the ball take any blame? Will the corpse of Keith Butler still be on the sidelines next year?

    _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    So what does this painful trip down memory lane tell us? Why have the Steelers failed these past 10 years?

    A variety of reasons. The most successful seasons of the decade, 2014-17, were mostly derailed due to key injuries to the offense at the end of the season or in the playoffs, with bad regular season losses costing the Steelers important playoff seeding and a stalled defensive rebuild leaving a defense that wasn't good enough to step up when needed. Unfortunately, the more recent seasons have featured more dramatic collapses as the Offense has deteriorated and the D is still not good enough to rely upon.

    Starting with Super Bowl XLV, most of the playoff losses had a similar pattern- the whole team starts off poorly, with Ben / the O turning the ball over and the D being unable to stop anything. Then, after the shock wears off, the Steelers O becomes functional and starts digging out of the hole. Unfortunately, the D still gives up points and cannot generate a turnover, so the other team keeps a large margin over the Steelers. At some point, when the Steelers start to pull close, there's a questionable and overly conservative special teams call that ends up not working out. Ultimately, the Steelers can't make up the difference.

    What does this say about Ben? I think it's fair to say that he has a problem of starting play-off games cold and making early mistakes that the Steelers have to overcome. However, he has historically bounced back from those mistakes to help bring the Steelers back into the game. I would also say that he has not been as effective when he has had a garbage running game and the offense has been one-dimensional. That's not surprising, as few QBs are. Do these make him a choker? I say no- he had too many good post season performances over the years to call him a choker IMO. He had the team in position to win in some games like the Broncos game in 2015 where he was injured and surrounded by garbage. He just needed some help from the defense, and he rarely received it. Unfortunately, Ben has had his ups and downs in the playoffs- he didn't have a second level playoff persona like Brady or Montana, or even like E. Manning and Flacco. But I think that it's unreasonable to put most of the blame on Ben. He had down times in games, but he didn't cost any games on his own. His worst performance was probably Super Bowl XLV, and even then he had the team back within striking distance before the Mendenhall fumble (which should probably be called the Legursky fumble).

    Regardless, we are at or near the end of the line with Ben. The real decision is what to do about coaching. IMO, I think that Tomlin should have been removed after 2018, and Butler after 2017. Too many inexplicable losses, too many slow starts in playoff games, too many defensive collapses for a defensive team. IMO, this recap shows that the next rebuild should be started without Tomlin. For better and for worse, he has had his chance. The Steelers are an organization in a distinctively downward trend these past few years, and I blame that on coaching. If we don't at least see Tomlin making some major changes at the OC and DC positions this offseason, then I am very pessimistic for the future.
    Last edited by W&M_Steeler; 01-13-2021 at 07:49 PM.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    I’m not saying Ben is the primary cause of playoff failure the past 10 years. But I am comparing him to his career prior to that and there’s a marked drop off in clutch play.

    And if you’ll check the game day thread archives you’ll find plenty of posters that blame Ben for almost every loss.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I’m not saying Ben is the primary cause of playoff failure the past 10 years. But I am comparing him to his career prior to that and there’s a marked drop off in clutch play.
    I'm not sure I even agree with that (beyond agreeing that he is physically more limited than he used to be, which has repercussions for his play). Ben looked pretty clutch against the Colts this year. He looked pretty clutch in the final drive of the 2018 Saints game until JuJu fumbled. I guess it depends on how you define "clutch"- I usually think of "clutch" as meaning "plays well in a situation late, when the game is on the line." By that definition Ben hasn't had many chances to be clutch in big games lately, because the game hasn't really been that close in the end. How would the 2017 Jags playoff game be classified? Ben was on fire and amazing in the second half and nearly brought the team out of a 21 point hole, but he helped create that hole in the first place. Was he clutch because he played very well late with the game on the line, or unclutch because he started out so badly?

    But you raised an interesting point- the Steelers were more successful from 1993-2003 than from 2010-2020- and I wanted to look into it that more deeply. It raises a fascinating question- why were the Steelers less successful despite having a much better QB and many very skilled players on offense and defense?

    I don't think Ben's clutchness, or lack thereof, has much to do with the losses of the past 10 years. As I noted above in my overlong posts, I think that most of the blame for the embarrassing playoff losses stemmed from the whole team, Ben included, starting out cold and terrible in several playoff games and creating huge deficits before recovering and playing better (at least offensively) later in the game. What can cause a team to have consistent whole team slow starts? I think that goes back to coaching. The other team usually has better opening game scripts. Then, even after the offense finds its footing, the defense has some fundamental flaws and, in pressure situations, can't generate turnovers or prevent the other team from scoring, so the Steelers can't overcome the deficit they created for themselves. Tomlin referenced "easing into the game" during the Super Bowl XLV run. I think that mentality is fundamentally one of the reasons this team starts slow in important games. The Steelers have "eased into" games, then found themselves overwhelmed by more intense and better prepared opponents.

    The Tomlin-era Steelers' habit of dropping a few games a year to terrible teams also contributes to the lack of success, resulting in worse seeding, tougher playoff opponents, and in some years outright missing the playoffs when they shouldn't have. Win some of these games against 5-11 or 4-12 teams and the Steelers aren't playing in the wildcard round (and therefore have a much better chance of reaching the AFCC game and Super Bowl).

    Finally, the Steelers suffered several fluky, untimely injuries going into the playoffs that severely hampered them. How can the same team lose its starting running back for the year in Week 17 in 3 out of 5 years? That's some major bad luck. Had R. Mendenhall been healthy for the 2011 playoffs, had L. Bell been healthy for the playoffs in 2014 or 2015, or had D. Williams been healthy for the 2015 playoffs, then maybe we would have seen a different outcome. That's just how things go, but it's frustrating to think that Bell, AB, and Bryant only had one playoff game together.

    TLDR: I think the disappointment of the past 10 years primarily rests on coaching and the slow starts created thereby, the defense never being reliable and routinely coming up short in crucial situations, and unfortunate injuries. Ben takes his share of the blame for the slow starts, but I don't think he's unclutch for being unable to overcome huge early game deficits. There's only so much a QB can do when his team is down 21 points and the defense can't make a stop and can't generate a turnover. Ben played out of his mind in the second half of the 2017 Jacksonville game, but that wasn't enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    And if you’ll check the game day thread archives you’ll find plenty of posters that blame Ben for almost every loss.
    I'm sure I would. And although Ben is my favorite Steeler (I'm basically his age and too young to have watched the 1970s team), I know that I have cussed him many times during games.

    Ben is not perfect and deserves criticism for his play at times. But I think evaluations that people have made in this thread that have him at or below Malone or O'Donnell or Kordell are ridiculous, and I wanted to map out why that's so.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben




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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Ben is not perfect and deserves criticism for his play at times. But I think evaluations that people have made in this thread that have him at or below Malone or O'Donnell or Kordell are ridiculous, and I wanted to map out why that's so.
    I wouldn't say Ben is below that career wise, but he definitely has regressed to their level of inconsistency or at the very least Late-Stage Brett Favre. You're rooting for the guy, but in the back of your mind, you know its coming. The critical meltdown.

    I believe that days that Steelers fans dreaded has arrived: The Steelers are back in Quarterback purgatory. Where the position is a total question mark going into the season.

    A guy like Ben really benefits going into a game manager role with a strong complimentary run game, like Elway in his final years, when he was clearly a shell of himself athletically but he had Terrell Davis to carry the load. Unfortunately, that requires dumping this Shotgun offense and quick passing game, which just isn't happening.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    I wouldn't say Ben is below that career wise, but he definitely has regressed to their level of inconsistency or at the very least Late-Stage Brett Favre. You're rooting for the guy, but in the back of your mind, you know its coming. The critical meltdown.

    I believe that days that Steelers fans dreaded has arrived: The Steelers are back in Quarterback purgatory. Where the position is a total question mark going into the season.

    A guy like Ben really benefits going into a game manager role with a strong complimentary run game, like Elway in his final years, when he was clearly a shell of himself athletically but he had Terrell Davis to carry the load. Unfortunately, that requires dumping this Shotgun offense and quick passing game, which just isn't happening.
    I think lumping current Ben in with end stage Favre or Elway is a fair assessment. Ben is definitely approaching the hospice stage of his career right now- the question is when to pull the plug. He's not going to win games on his own, but he can still come through in the clutch if given the chance to do so. I still think he could help a strong team win, but he's not going to be able to win without a good run game and a good defense, and he's not going to win if the entire team (Ben included) keeps creating these huge deficits at the beginning of important games.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by W&M_Steeler View Post
    But I think evaluations that people have made in this thread that have him at or below Malone or O'Donnell or Kordell are ridiculous, and I wanted to map out why that's so.
    Please don't direct any of those responses to me.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Please don't direct any of those responses to me.
    You didn't make those negative comparisons to Kordell and the rest; others did. My long posts were intended to be general responses to the thread as a whole and addressed multiple points, not only you specifically. But you did say that Ben has been a choke artist for the past 10 years. I don't think that history bears that out either, except to the extent that the entire team tends to start out choking in big games, Ben included. Ben still tends to snap out that funk, though, while the defense tends not to.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by W&M_Steeler View Post
    You didn't make those negative comparisons to Kordell and the rest; others did. My long posts were intended to be general responses to the thread as a whole and addressed multiple points, not only you specifically. But you did say that Ben has been a choke artist for the past 10 years. I don't think that history bears that out either, except to the extent that the entire team tends to start out choking in big games, Ben included. Ben still tends to snap out that funk, though, while the defense tends not to.
    Ben stopped being capable of Quarterbacking the Steelers to a Super Bowl approx 3 years ago. Time to realize that he is way past his prime, enjoy the work he did since 2004, appreciate it and move forward.

    Sure, the Steelers may extend his deal another season, to spread out that cap hit and have Ben play one more season as a bridge to another QB. But if that happens, its nothing more than a competitive season and hope for playoffs, with another early round exit.

    There was a time when Terry Bradshaw was a shadow of his former QB self. Same too with Franco Harris. Stallworth was an iron man and still productive in the early 1980's, but he was more the savvy route runner, than the deep threat he used to be. The point is that your athletic heroes are just men...they get older and less athletic as time goes on and just cant compete as well as when they were younger.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    I wouldn't say Ben is below that career wise, but he definitely has regressed to their level of inconsistency or at the very least Late-Stage Brett Favre. You're rooting for the guy, but in the back of your mind, you know its coming. The critical meltdown.

    I believe that days that Steelers fans dreaded has arrived: The Steelers are back in Quarterback purgatory. Where the position is a total question mark going into the season.

    A guy like Ben really benefits going into a game manager role with a strong complimentary run game, like Elway in his final years, when he was clearly a shell of himself athletically but he had Terrell Davis to carry the load. Unfortunately, that requires dumping this Shotgun offense and quick passing game, which just isn't happening.
    It’s puzzling why the Steelers went with Conner, Snell, and co. They knew Conner was injury prone and the other RB’s were average at best and most often below average. On top of that they knew key linemen were on the decline or hurt (pouncey and DD). Guess that’s a part of the reason for canning fichtner and sarret. They knew Ben was coming off elbow surgery and yet they failed to provide the necessary support (and protection) in the running game department. Should’ve picked up a solid back instead of Ebron.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Steeler-in-west View Post
    It’s puzzling why the Steelers went with Conner, Snell, and co. They knew Conner was injury prone and the other RB’s were average at best and most often below average. On top of that they knew key linemen were on the decline or hurt (pouncey and DD). Guess that’s a part of the reason for canning fichtner and sarret. They knew Ben was coming off elbow surgery and yet they failed to provide the necessary support (and protection) in the running game department. Should’ve picked up a solid back instead of Ebron.
    Ben really liked Randy Fichtner and was given greater control and say over the offense after Todd Haley got axed. Ben made a power play and threatened retirement after 2017. The Steelers, with perennial backup Landry Jones and unpolished Josh Dobbs on the depth chart, they had no choice but to oblige. Ben got his new contract, and his new offense.

    However, the Steelers went ahead and drafted Mason Rudolph in the following draft. The rest is history.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    this may mean that they're not expecting to go forward with Ben after this season

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Ben really liked Randy Fichtner and was given greater control and say over the offense after Todd Haley got axed. Ben made a power play and threatened retirement after 2017. The Steelers, with perennial backup Landry Jones and unpolished Josh Dobbs on the depth chart, they had no choice but to oblige. Ben got his new contract, and his new offense.

    However, the Steelers went ahead and drafted Mason Rudolph in the following draft. The rest is history.
    Where is the source supporting the allegation that Ben wanted Fichtner promoted because Fichtner was his buddy? Tomlin is the one who worked with Fichtner at Arkansas State, and Tomlin is the one who brought Fichtner with him to the Steelers in 2007. Meanwhile, Haley had notoriously weird problems as Head Coach at KC, fighting with Scott Pioli for allegedly bugging Haley's phone. Haley had roots with the Steelers through his dad, not Tomlin. Plus, there were weird rumors and legal problems following the Haleys while Todd was an OC, and the Haleys got into a drunken fight the Tequila Cowboy bar in Pittsburgh on New Year's Eve during the 2017 playoff run where Todd fell down and broke his leg / pelvis. Isn't it possible that the Rooneys, Tomlin, and Ben were all sick of Todd Haley because he was an embarrassing asshole and decided to promote Fichtner because he was a good guy and everyone liked him?

    I'm not ruling out that Ben made a power play, but I haven't really seen the source for it and I don't remember the "Fichtner is Ben's buddy" stories until a year or two ago (despite Fichtner having been with the Steelers since 2007- if Ben loved Fichtner so much and had so much pull to install him as OC, then why didn't Fichtner succeed Arians?)

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    When were the Whizenhunt years?

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    When were the Whizenhunt years?
    As OC? 2004-2006. Whiz left after the 2006 season to become the head coach of the Cardinals, and he was coaching them in the Super Bowl (with Todd Haley as his OC) against the Steelers in 2008.

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    Re: The Past 10 Years vs. The 10 Years Before Ben

    Quote Originally Posted by W&M_Steeler View Post
    Where is the source supporting the allegation that Ben wanted Fichtner promoted because Fichtner was his buddy? Tomlin is the one who worked with Fichtner at Arkansas State, and Tomlin is the one who brought Fichtner with him to the Steelers in 2007. Meanwhile, Haley had notoriously weird problems as Head Coach at KC, fighting with Scott Pioli for allegedly bugging Haley's phone. Haley had roots with the Steelers through his dad, not Tomlin. Plus, there were weird rumors and legal problems following the Haleys while Todd was an OC, and the Haleys got into a drunken fight the Tequila Cowboy bar in Pittsburgh on New Year's Eve during the 2017 playoff run where Todd fell down and broke his leg / pelvis. Isn't it possible that the Rooneys, Tomlin, and Ben were all sick of Todd Haley because he was an embarrassing asshole and decided to promote Fichtner because he was a good guy and everyone liked him?

    I'm not ruling out that Ben made a power play, but I haven't really seen the source for it and I don't remember the "Fichtner is Ben's buddy" stories until a year or two ago (despite Fichtner having been with the Steelers since 2007- if Ben loved Fichtner so much and had so much pull to install him as OC, then why didn't Fichtner succeed Arians?)
    Because the ownership and top brass stepped in to bring Haley in. The Rooneys saw that Ben was getting crushed year after under Arians' offense and wanted to install a more balanced offense to protect their franchise investment.

    Haley may have been a colossal douche, but he knows NFL offense.

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