Fire Tomlin - 2021 Edition

[steelreserve]

That’s exactly the thing…other than Belichick/Brady, can you really name a head coach that is way above Tomlin? The names are always Reid, Payton, Carroll, even McCarthy was thrown out there at times…

This is such a lame argument that gets thrown around all the time. Of course if you limit your thinking to well-established names who have been around the NFL for years and are also available for hire immediately, you are going to come up with zip. But that is just by being deliberately obtuse for the sake of proving a point.

Who were Belichick, Carroll, Reid, and Payton before they were successful NFL coaches? Were they already NFL head coaches with a 10+ year track record of success? No? Then how did they ever do it? It's almost as if there are other people out there who might turn into good head coaches if you hire them. In fact, you might say that's how every single successful NFL coach is found.

This whole line of thinking is no different from saying, "How are we ever going to find our next QB in the draft? Who's coming out of college this year that's had a better NFL career than Ben?" Completely rhetorical and disingenuous.

[Mojouw]

Here is the math of it: There are 11 playoff games per year including the Super Bowl. With 32 teams in the league, on average you ought to win about 3.5 playoff games per decade just by showing up. So in that respect, we have been slightly below average.

Sure, that's not a terrible performance on the face of it, but is that what you expect out of someone who is supposed to be one of the best coaches in the league, one that other teams would kill to hire?

Add in the fact that for the majority of that decade, we had a Hall of Fame QB in his prime and most teams didn't, and it really starts to piss you off that we didn't get better results. The fact that it's hard to win consistently in the NFL is no excuse to settle for mediocrity and go oh well.

The math on that doesn't work out for the majority of NFL franchises.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...stseason-wins/
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/mos...-last-25-years

It assumes a normal distribution of "wins" and everything we have to examine indicates that this set of variables is not functioning like a normal distribution -- so simple averages and other calculations do not apply.

[Mojouw]

This is such a lame argument that gets thrown around all the time. Of course if you limit your thinking to well-established names who have been around the NFL for years and are also available for hire immediately, you are going to come up with zip. But that is just by being deliberately obtuse for the sake of proving a point.

Who were Belichick, Carroll, Reid, and Payton before they were successful NFL coaches? Were they already NFL head coaches with a 10+ year track record of success? No? Then how did they ever do it? It's almost as if there are other people out there who might turn into good head coaches if you hire them. In fact, you might say that's how every single successful NFL coach is found.

This whole line of thinking is no different from saying, "How are we ever going to find our next QB in the draft? Who's coming out of college this year that's had a better NFL career than Ben?" Completely rhetorical and disingenuous.

For me, that isn't the argument at all. Of course there is the next great NFL coach out there. And it is almost certainly someone that no one is talking about right now. And it will be a significant boon to whatever NFL franchise identifies and hires that person.

The argument is that Mike Tomlin needs to be fired because he does not meet reasonable job performance expectations. I have been arguing for years that this is not a valid statement. The definition of "reasonable job performance" on this message board is so wildly skewed and out of whack that it prevents many from appreciating that almost unprecedented run of success that the Tomlin/Colbert/Ben era Steelers have experienced.

[Steeler-in-west]

This is such a lame argument that gets thrown around all the time. Of course if you limit your thinking to well-established names who have been around the NFL for years and are also available for hire immediately, you are going to come up with zip. But that is just by being deliberately obtuse for the sake of proving a point.

Who were Belichick, Carroll, Reid, and Payton before they were successful NFL coaches? Were they already NFL head coaches with a 10+ year track record of success? No? Then how did they ever do it? It's almost as if there are other people out there who might turn into good head coaches if you hire them. In fact, you might say that's how every single successful NFL coach is found.

This whole line of thinking is no different from saying, "How are we ever going to find our next QB in the draft? Who's coming out of college this year that's had a better NFL career than Ben?" Completely rhetorical and disingenuous.

that's right, the steelers will have to decide what they want in a new head coach (when that moment arrives) and look around the league and do their research. Noll was an assistant to Shula when they found him, Cowher and Tomlin were DC's. the next HC is again going to be some assistant in the league who gets his chance. I think what separates Noll from Cowher and Tomlin was his attention to detail and emphasis on the routine things in practice until the players mastered it in the games. I think we need to find a coach that will get us back to that.

But like i've said before, a more pressing need may be the Rooney's needing to spend more money on finding good coordinators outside the organization

[steelreserve]

The math on that doesn't work out for the majority of NFL franchises.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...stseason-wins/
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/mos...-last-25-years

It assumes a normal distribution of "wins" and everything we have to examine indicates that this set of variables is not functioning like a normal distribution -- so simple averages and other calculations do not apply.

The point is that I think we had the tools to do better than that. Most importantly, we had a great QB the whole time. For a number of years, we also had a great offense in general. The point is that we should not have been among the majority of teams that the math didn't work out for - we should've been one of the ones skewing the numbers by hogging all their wins. It was disappointing, given what we had to work with. A big underachievement.

For me, that isn't the argument at all. Of course there is the next great NFL coach out there. And it is almost certainly someone that no one is talking about right now. And it will be a significant boon to whatever NFL franchise identifies and hires that person.

The argument is that Mike Tomlin needs to be fired because he does not meet reasonable job performance expectations. I have been arguing for years that this is not a valid statement. The definition of "reasonable job performance" on this message board is so wildly skewed and out of whack that it prevents many from appreciating that almost unprecedented run of success that the Tomlin/Colbert/Ben era Steelers have experienced.

Eh. Andy Dalton or Alex Smith had "reasonable job performance," but the goal is to win the Super Bowl, and how likely are they to get you there? The standard is not how many decent regular seasons you have, or how many near misses if only X and Y had gone your way. The goal is to win the championship, and by that standard we haven't gotten any closer in 10 years, and truthfully we've never been very close.

I'm sure Tomlin would manage to have reasonable success if he coached another team, maybe grind out a couple 10-win seasons with the Panthers or something, but after 10 years of him being past the "Cowher's players" threshold with a team he was firmly in charge of building himself - he does not look like the guy who is going to get you all the way up the mountain. It doesn't matter that he'll get you halfway up the mountain and most people can't make it halfway; that's not the goal. I would say that if reasonable job performance is your standard, that is not compatible with the extreme demands and cutthroat competition of professional sports.

[Mojouw]

They did collect a disproportionate amount of playoff appearances and victories. The entire premise that they did not is not supported by any available data.

The SB or bust argument means every coach in the league should be fired. No one is meeting it.

[86WARD]

This is such a lame argument that gets thrown around all the time. Of course if you limit your thinking to well-established names who have been around the NFL for years and are also available for hire immediately, you are going to come up with zip. But that is just by being deliberately obtuse for the sake of proving a point.

Who were Belichick, Carroll, Reid, and Payton before they were successful NFL coaches? Were they already NFL head coaches with a 10+ year track record of success? No? Then how did they ever do it? It's almost as if there are other people out there who might turn into good head coaches if you hire them. In fact, you might say that's how every single successful NFL coach is found.

This whole line of thinking is no different from saying, "How are we ever going to find our next QB in the draft? Who's coming out of college this year that's had a better NFL career than Ben?" Completely rhetorical and disingenuous.

Lol…wut?

Has nothing to do with finding a “new” coach. Name a current one…

[steelreserve]

They did collect a disproportionate amount of playoff appearances and victories. The entire premise that they did not is not supported by any available data.

The SB or bust argument means every coach in the league should be fired. No one is meeting it.

Look, by that logic, hardly anyone should ever be benched and hardly anyone should be fired, and we should all just be content with being like everyone else. I don't think that's the right mentality that it takes to become a dominant team. Even a "fuck the prom queen" mentality is not going to cut it. You need a "buttfuck the prom queen right in front of her friends" mentality, and we haven't got that.

[Mach1]

Everybody gets one.

[Steel Peon]

But you could go through the greatest of head coaches and cherry pick first round players out that they didn’t “develop”. Belichick has a laundry list of first and second round players that have never developed. Any of them with a WR designation to start. Dominique Easley never developed. Laurence Maroney was a waste.

Again, I will never gather this kind of information, so I have to concede the point because I have no frame of reference.

[tube517]

Happy December!

[Steeldude]

This reminds me of the Kordell days.

[pepsyman1]

As far as Tomlin, if he left Pittsburgh at 4:00 PM on the last day of the 2021 season, he’d be somewhere else by 4:15. Bank on that.

100% right that someone would snap him up immediately. My issue is that based on the last 11 years watching what he's done in Pittsburgh, my guess is that he would probably end up with a totally acceptable .500 record and would occasionally win a playoff game but would never sniff at another title.

[86WARD]

This reminds me of the Kordell days.

I’d take Kordell in a second if they could get an RPO OC in here.

[Steeldude]

I’d take Kordell in a second if they could get an RPO OC in here.

Kordell couldn’t throw and was dumb as a stump. He should have been a WR or RB.

[86WARD]

Kordell couldn’t throw and was dumb as a stump. He should have been a WR or RB.

Most RPO QBs can’t throw…lol.

[Dwinsgames]

Kordell couldn’t throw and was dumb as a stump. He should have been a WR or RB.

I'd argue he throws as good as Lamar Jackson ( or better )

the stats wont indicate it because they are defended differently as the system then encouraged Kordell to not utilize his most valuable asset ( his feet )

[Mojouw]

I'd argue he throws as good as Lamar Jackson ( or better )

the stats wont indicate it because they are defended differently as the system then encouraged Kordell to not utilize his most valuable asset ( his feet )

If Stewart entered the league right now...he'd be a star. He almost made playing his style of QB work in an era where no one really embraced that. Now? He's what many offensive coaches are looking for. I shudder to think what Stewart and Randall Cunningham could do in the league now.

[86WARD]

If Stewart entered the league right now...he'd be a star. He almost made playing his style of QB work in an era where no one really embraced that. Now? He's what many offensive coaches are looking for. I shudder to think what Stewart and Randall Cunningham could do in the league now.

Cunningham? Good God he’d be ridiculous…

[hawaiiansteeler]

If we only look at the last decade (as people who want to blame everything on Tomlin like to do), would Ben be a HoF QB?​

I think the answer is pretty clear. Good, but not great. And pretty error prone in the playoffs.

[teegre]

I'd argue he throws as good as Lamar Jackson ( or better )

the stats wont indicate it because they are defended differently as the system then encouraged Kordell to not utilize his most valuable asset ( his feet )

Bingo!!! Ray Sherman told Kordell “Do NOT run!!!” From what I remember, there was a racist undertone to Sherman’s remarks (if I recall, the quote was: “Don't play like a BLACK quarterback”). Regardless, Sherman took away Kordell’s biggest asset: his legs.

BEFORE Sherman:
2nd-&-8… nothing open… run for 12

Eventually defenses had to stack the box, and Kordell could make those throws to wide open receivers. Yes, “wide open receivers” was all he could realistically do… but, with 8 defenders in the box to stop him from running, those open looks came in droves.

AFTER Sherman:
2nd-&-8… nothing open… do not run… throw it???

[Steeldude]

Most RPO QBs can’t throw…lol.

And that’s why you don’t need a RPO QB in the NFL. I prefer QBs who can throw and handle more than two different plays.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd argue he throws as good as Lamar Jackson ( or better )

the stats wont indicate it because they are defended differently as the system then encouraged Kordell to not utilize his most valuable asset ( his feet )

Teams stacked the box because KS couldn’t throw. Defenses wanted KS to throw. KS had a 41 QB rating in the post season.

[Mojouw]

Well, we have an RPO QB now. What do you think all those sub 2 second throws with Harris also in the backfield are? The "run" in RPO is not QB runs.

For someone who makes such definitive statements about football...I'm not sure you know much about what you are actually talking about.

[hawaiiansteeler]

[pepsyman1]

OMG....a FULLBACK in use again....and amazingly a 6 yard run

[Lady Steel]

[Steeldude]

Well, we have an RPO QB now. What do you think all those sub 2 second throws with Harris also in the backfield are? The "run" in RPO is not QB runs.

For someone who makes such definitive statements about football...I'm not sure you know much about what you are actually talking about.

And there is a difference between college RPO, which he was referring to, and RPO in the pros. Begin crying again, liberal.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...-college-rules

[DesertSteel]

And McAfee is the biggest moron on radio.

[Mojouw]

And there is a difference between college RPO, which he was referring to, and RPO in the pros. Begin crying again, liberal.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-foo...-college-rules

I’m not crying. Offensive philosophy is far divorced from politics. I just think you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Steeler-in-west]

what an idiot, ex punter with a gutter mouth