Agreed, more of them should become politicians.Originally Posted by Born2Steel
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Agreed, more of them should become politicians.
So what you are saying, to be specific, is that you, Joe Thomas, and whoever else can watch the TV broadcast of game and divine that the 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers coaching staff has decided to do the following:
1. Minimize practice time on run blocking and run game install.
2. De-emphasize the run game in their meetings and discussions with players.
3. Skip over blown assignments and poor execution in run blocking during film sessions and review
And further that you can determine the health and capabilities of the players involved? If that is the case, please start a website and break this down for any and every team you watch on Sundays...because we can all make a crap-ton of money betting based on these dramatic and definitive observations.
The anecdote about Skip and Sharpe isn't really relevant because Joe Thomas OFFERED zero discussion/analysis of blown assignments, missed responsibilities, etc. It was all armchair psychology and cliches. They may as well had you on.
Now if you want to talk about how practice leads to playing and all that and we can look at specific strategies and bad execution...here is a decent starting point: https://steelersdepot.com/2020/12/fi...e-linebackers/. Agree or disagree with the breakdown offered in the article. At least it is actual on-the-field examples and instances to discuss. Rather than some 30,00 foot overview that is based on nothing than what Thomas' gut feeling is.
We could talk about how the past 3 years, the set-up of the offensive line has been to pass block first and second with run blocking a distant third priority. So if that is "commitment" fine...but what is driving that? I suspect it is a QB that can't get hit anymore. Bottom line...there is far more that goes into this than just some bland statement about the practice habits and lack of physicality. Almost all things in life happen for specific reasons and I strongly doubt that Mike Tomlin woke up one day and decided that this football team didn't need to practice running plays anymore.
There are lots of people who have played and coached football all over that understand what Joe Thomas is saying. Quite a few on this board as well. Thomas is talking about how things work on an NFL team, in the O line meetings, during in-season game week preparation. Basically he is pointing out the following:
-Steelers havent committed to the run, other than start of season when they were not sure what Ben's arm status was like. Its really apparent, but for stats the Steelers have the 6th LOWEST rush attempts in the NFL and 3rd HIGHEST pass attempts in the NFL.
-The time to best work on timing and technique of run blocking is during camp and preseason. All the stuff Thomas talked about being "hip to hip", "shoulder to shoulder" practice and communication of "combination blocks", are all things somebody that understand O line play fully gets. The week to week game practices are more about installation of game plan and timing. They arent in the pads hitting opponents at full speed like is done in training camp and preseason.
-The Steelers offense is not a physical offense like in the past. Again, pretty easy to see just by observing and Thomas notes that. Also, the future HOF OT knows what every O lineman would rather do. 1. back up and retreat block vs athletes running forward or 2. fire off the football forward and physically push around guys that are your size( or in the case of most DE's or OLB's), smaller?
I love that you quote a link to a blog from Kozora. Do you know what he was doing before blogging for SD? Rolling around message boards like this and posting opinions like many here. I think he is still a member of this board under the name Chidi29. He does his research and posts some good points, but I just find it entertaining that you cant understand what I am saying, and think I should refer to an opinon of a message board fan turned blogger, rather than what a Hall of Fame Left Tackle just gave his insight on...which is in line with what I already posted a day earlier.
I have no idea why you are fixating on argument that I am not making. I guess because you get to tell me how much I don't know?
I am simply making the argument that what Thomas is saying can be valid and MAY be true. BUT...there is no way that he really knows anything specific about the 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers process. All he can do is extrapolate from results. Anyone can do that. With varying degrees of success.
Further, we have two things that do not align just on the issue of run blocking and camp/preseason. Remember when everyone (yourself included) was hyped on how much Ebron was hitting the blocking sleds? Ebron was talking about how every coach was involved in teaching he and other players proper technique and whatnot? Also indicated that he never was asked or shown how to do this at other NFL stops. So prior to the season starting...the Steelers were committed to the run game and working on it. This board and the Steelers internet was abuzz about their renewed emphasis on fundamentals and the run game to protect the surgically repaired elbow of the QB. But now, once the bottom falls out of the rushing offense, they weren't? Both can not be true. So which is it? Or is the new idea that during camp and preseason ONLY Eric Ebron was hitting blocking sleds and doing drills?
We can further make an assumption that the Steelers must have spent some time in camp working on all this because out of the gate the rushing totals were 141, 109, 169, bye, 136, 129, and 94. Oddly competent. What happened next? The Baltimore Ravens figured out the Steelers offense a bit. Then every team with a modestly competent defense has copied it. And the Steelers haven't rushed for 70 yards (except against the Jags and they don't count) again. That is also the EXACT same stretch where the sub 5 yards per pass offense really got going. So maybe the two are related? Or is it just a coincidence?
I know exactly who Alex is and you can crap all over it all you like, but all those things that you laud Joe Thomas for saying...it is the same stuff Kozora wrote about just with actual specific plays and examples rather than some vague hand-wavey idea that treads towards worn out cliches about "toughness" and "mindset" as the underlying explanations. So specific data points that document what Thomas is alluding to are to be discarded because reasons? C'mon. I get that you and others know more about the technical ins and outs of football in general and offensive line play specifically. That's great and I don't dispute it. I do think it is still possible to look at the situation since about Week 8 and see that the issue(s) might run deeper than the state of mind the team takes the field with.
The Steelers haven't been a physical offense since like what? When did Bettis retire? About then. So why can they not move the ball on the ground this year? Suddenly what? Fichtner and Tomlin woke up and decided to just not run the ball? Explanations for things are complex. The 2020 Steelers can want to run the ball all they want. They can commit themselves to working at it and having a proper mindset. That doesn't mean they are going to be any darn good at it.
In the past several weeks there has been a C/G who didn't even start for his college team playing significant snaps. Chuks lost the RT job to Banner mainly because Banner was a far better run blocker, at least that was the impression I got from the spotty reports from players during camp. Dotson played last at a lower level of competition than most guys come into the league from. Despite his laudable physical abilities and work ethic...might be that the is more than a bit slow processing NFL stuff? Like I have posted repeatedly, AV's struggles in the run game due to his height have been documented by many others (including former offensive lineman, since that is a requirement apparently). At times all of Feiler and Pouncey have played like they have roller skates on. So commit to running the ball all you want. Not going to be very good at it if the guys up front just aren't any good right now.
So there is clearly a scheme thing (all this lateral crap is dumb when you're repeatedly not blocking it up), there is likely a factor that they need to run it more to have some greater success, but there is almost certainly a player ability and execution problem as well.
And none of this mentions or even addresses the bad play from the QB position. You yourself have posted in multiple threads about the inaccurate and poorly thrown passes coming from Ben all season long. Surely the woes in the passing game have to have an impact on the running game; just as the woes in the run game have to be impacting the passing game?
This is all I am and have been saying. To just look at the past month and say "Well, the 2020 Pittsburgh Steelers just never committed to the run game and that is that and they need a better mindset" is looking at one variable in isolation and ignoring multiple other things that one can reasonably assume are involved...
QFT!
Enthroned Into The Good Old Boys Club - 2024
go back to post #12 and you are appearing to say that the reason the Steelers offense is not performing, is because the QB cannot make NFL caliber throws down the field.
I am saying that he still has the arm strength to make the throws, but the reason for the Steelers offense not performing is because the OC has an imbalanced pass:run ratio of offense. He has created a soft Offense, with a lack of physical nature because he doesn't try to establish the run. He thinks the short pass is as good as the run, but the only problem is that with no run game, he allows defenses to keep guys in coverage, rather than put extra defender in the box, for fear of the run.
A Hall of Fame caliber O lineman has similar thoughts with the points I made (as do other posters) with regards to the lack of emphasis on the run game and the lack of physical identity of the offense.
We can get into scheme and stuff about zone vs man blocking, stretch vs inside zone, pulling and trapping vs straight up in-line blocking, but that is spinning to nowhere. Its up to the OC to develop the identity of his offense. This one is pretty one dimensional and lacks physicality and toughness.
That is almost certainly part of it, as is the "identity" issues.
I am saying that there are few simple answers in this or anything else.
We have an NFL team that for 6-7 games was able to run the ball. Then for another 6 games or whatever has not. I find it hard to believe that the only thing is that the offensive linemen all got "soft" over the same 2 month period or whatever the calendar works out to.
Long story short, fire Fichtner and install the run game loving OC of choice...are we certain this would really get all that much better? Would Ben R start hitting WRs in stride down the sideline? Stop throwing behind WRs in the short and intermediate areas?
The Browns, Vikings, Forty-niners, and Jaguars are three of the most run oriented and "committed" teams I can think of in 2020. Now, they all have and continue to rush far better than the Steelers do. But each has had stretches of games where the run game has kind winked out on them.
Were they lacking in commitment and the proper mentality?
Were there other things (opponents, injuries, execution, game flow, roster talent, turnovers, ineffective in other phases of the offense, etc.) that also impacted their ability to effectively run the ball?
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I don't think El is saying that is the only thing. It seems to me he is saying the reason for the Steelers offense not performing is because OC has an imbalance pass-run ratio. My question is why does the OC continue to do the same thing every week? I mean he runs the same trusted and true failed plays week after week. I mean we all know what is coming, surely NFL defences know too.Then you have snell who tries to run through a hole in the line that isn't there and then stops running. I don't know what to think about Ben, sometimes his arm looks great but then he starts throwing punts downfield. Like in the last game Washington had at least two steps on his man down field and the pass was punt high and behind him for the pick, added to that are WR's who continue to drop balls that hit them right in the hands. At this time in December a playoff team should be starting firing on all cylinders to reach the assigned flight level. Hopefully it will turn around Monday night but I'm keeping my parachute on.
Agreed. I've offered my apologies to El individually and I didn't mean to come off as combative. I just think the problems run deeper than "want to".I don't think El is saying that is the only thing. It seems to me he is saying the reason for the Steelers offense not performing is because OC has an imbalance pass-run ratio. My question is why does the OC continue to do the same thing every week? I mean he runs the same trusted and true failed plays week after week. I mean we all know what is coming, surely NFL defences know too.Then you have snell who tries to run through a hole in the line that isn't there and then stops running. I don't know what to think about Ben, sometimes his arm looks great but then he starts throwing punts downfield. Like in the last game Washington had at least two steps on his man down field and the pass was punt high and behind him for the pick, added to that are WR's who continue to drop balls that hit them right in the hands. At this time in December a playoff team should be starting firing on all cylinders to reach the assigned flight level. Hopefully it will turn around Monday night but I'm keeping my parachute on.
Honestly, I think Roethlisberger is a diminished QB right now. He's not helped by a mediocre OC but he's part of the problem.
Hopefully, he plays his way into part of the solution.
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well if Ben goes down, I’ll lmao if mason and josh bring home #7
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Well, if his WRs didn’t drop half their targets, we are still undefeated.
If my aunt had balls she’d be my uncle. I thought the first time they dropped 7 it was an aberration, now I’m starting to think it’s another pandemic. Hopefully this issue doesn’t continue.
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well if Ben goes down, I’ll lmao if mason and josh bring home #7
I will be drinking heavily and celebrating!
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Here are Ben's numbers through the first 13 games of each season since 2006 for passes that went 20+ yards. The year 2020 is not crazy off like some here think.
InterestingHere are Ben's numbers through the first 13 games of each season since 2006 for passes that went 20+ yards. The year 2020 is not crazy off like some here think.
A couple of other interesting stats...
Steelers offense in 2019
Yards per pass attempt: 6.3
Yards per rush attempt: 3.7
Steelers offense in 2020
Yards per pass attempt: 6.3
Yards per rush attempt: 3.7
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Yikes!!
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Maybe Mason wasn't the problem.
Mason was the problem, because he wasn’t the solution. At this point, none of our quarterbacks are providing a viable solution.
I believe sometimes there is only so much you can blame the quarterback on when the offense is built one dimensionally with glaring weaknesses. Ben helps mitigate that, but there are limits. As we have seen.
The Steelers Offense is running as intended and designed. 40-50 Quick passes with occasional runs. Our running plays are draws out of shotgun and quick 2-3 yard passes. Our Tight Ends have been questionable since Heath Miller left. McDonald can’t stay healthy. Ebron is a matchup nightmare but can’t block.
Tomlin can be upset with lack of physicality from the offense all he wants. Physicality is a mentality that is ingrained into a team from The start training camp, and the team has to be built as such. Our offense is not built to be physical. James Washington is the only player I can see who is physical.
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Fichtner denies that any team has figured them out. Translation: more of the same on offense.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...s/202012170120
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This is what "buddy-buddy job security" promotes. If I was Rooney, I'd fire him today, on the spot. Of course that is how I feel without reading this link.
I think if we watched the first 3 or 4 games again, we would see an offensive line that played with physicality in the run game, because they didnt want their starting QB with the repaired elbow to have to carry the load too much, when he hadnt played in almost a year.
Once Ben showed that his arm was OK, I think Fichnter switched to an offensive gameplanning and playcalling that de emphasized the run and the Offensive line was getting fewer opportunities to establish the physical run game, develop the kind of habits and timing (what people like to call chemistry) in the run game that results in success.
The more that O linemen execute plays, the more they get down the timing of double team blocks, combination blocks, pull angles, pad level, footwork, etc that results in good O line play. Sometimes a play happens like a combination block and the defense blows it up and make the tackle, then the 2 linemen talk about taking more of a reach step to the play side, or switching the lineman going to the LB, or taking more of a stab with the hand rather than a true deuce block to displace the lineman, before getting to the LB. The point is that they figure out the blocking assignment on the fly.
If an O line group doesnt get a chance to establish the run and go thru some of those things in a game, before the OC abandons it and goes to the pass heavy offense, it can be like a baseball starting pitcher running into issues in the 3rd inning and gets the quick hook, rather than the manager letting him work thru the inning and get out of it. It erodes confidence that the pitcher has with the manager. I think some of that happened here with the Steelers. Fichtner got away from the run in the middle of the season and has a 1 dimensional offense.
Fichtner is blaming the spotty practice time for the team for the offense. Convenient excuse. Let's see if he's correct.
If the Bengals Defense shuts down the offense again this week, what little patience there was with Fichtner on this board will evaporate.
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I was just about to say the same thing, we just haven’t been seeing any benefits of those recently. I am hoping we get Washington and Claypool out there with Juju in the slot a bit more going forward.Here are Ben's numbers through the first 13 games of each season since 2006 for passes that went 20+ yards. The year 2020 is not crazy off like some here think.
Remember how everyone HATED the 2018 offense? Now it is good because that makes 2020 fine? I am a massive stats and analytics guy. Won't find anyone who likes them more...BUT...but...I also watch the games. And this is the worst I remember Ben looking throwing the ball. Ever.
At least in 2018 they scored on the deep shots he did manage to hit.
At the beginning of the season, Ben looked really good throwing the ball. Wonder what happened between then and now or if it’s a combination of a few things?
I still think overall he's been good. Forced to take team on shoulders due to conner only an 8 game a year back, and backups suck. Throw in the dropped passes and he's got no choice but to force things. Pic six against Bills flat out terrible though. Bottom line , I will be grading him in playoffs. He’s done his job to this point and come post season is where he needs to step up game. If he doesn’t perform in playoffs, no way I pay him 30 mill for his name and history next year.
That makes a good deal of sense.
Unless he retires, he's the Qb in 2021.
Is the media allowed to see Ben practice? Something is up with his arm. Maybe tendinitis of the elbow?
If we can't throw deep, defenses will stack the line and flood the line of scrimmage, making it difficult to run or pass short. The problem is compounded by our receivers having too many drops.
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