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Thread: Big Ben MVP?

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    This is kinda like when Peyton Manning was running the Colts. Without him, the Colts would've been not good. Even their defense was built to play against teams that were in "pass all the time to keep up with Manning" mode. By the logic laid out here, Manning should've been MVP every single season from 1999 to 2010 instead of the "just" 4 times he won it.

    By just about every measure, except W-L, 2020 Ben R is about #10-15 in the QB rankings. Could you imagine what the response would be here if a non-Steelers QB with those stats got talked about as MVP? Remember the response most had to Lamar Jackson's MVP last season?

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Ben is tied for 4th in TD passes. Lol.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    This is kinda like when Peyton Manning was running the Colts. Without him, the Colts would've been not good. Even their defense was built to play against teams that were in "pass all the time to keep up with Manning" mode. By the logic laid out here, Manning should've been MVP every single season from 1999 to 2010 instead of the "just" 4 times he won it.

    By just about every measure, except W-L, 2020 Ben R is about #10-15 in the QB rankings. Could you imagine what the response would be here if a non-Steelers QB with those stats got talked about as MVP? Remember the response most had to Lamar Jackson's MVP last season?
    I used Rodgers for a specific reason because he is grossly overrated.
    But if he was in the same situation as Ben coming of said injury to his arm etc stats and all the NFL media would be all over him like white on rice. You'd never hear the end of it.
    But because its Ben it gets pushed aside?
    He's the sole reason they're 9-0.
    I don't care how good that defense is put the other 2 stiffs in and at BEST they're 2-7 but I'm also convinced they could be 0-9 because they both suck that bad and Rudolph more so than Hodges.

    As for CPOY he wont even win that it's that insane and yet he should have no business not winning it as it stands.

    Like i said previously he should be in consideration as I really don't care if he wins it. I will always take a Super Bowl win long before any lame MVP award.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I used Rodgers for a specific reason because he is grossly overrated.
    But if he was in the same situation as Ben coming of said injury to his arm etc stats and all the NFL media would be all over him like white on rice. You'd never hear the end of it.
    But because its Ben it gets pushed aside?
    He's the sole reason they're 9-0.
    I don't care how good that defense is put the other 2 stiffs in and at BEST they're 2-7 but I'm also convinced they could be 0-9 because they both suck that bad and Rudolph more so than Hodges.

    As for CPOY he wont even win that it's that insane and yet he should have no business not winning it as it stands.

    Like i said previously he should be in consideration as I really don't care if he wins it. I will always take a Super Bowl win long before any lame MVP award.
    Maybe? Who knows? Who cares?

    Unless he goes on an 7 game tear, 2020 Ben R has laughable MVP stats. Play around here: https://www.footballdb.com/statistic...g?sort=passpct

    About #12 or so if you take out injured guys or their replacements in comp %
    About #15 in yards.
    I didn't even bother to count how far down the list in YPA he was (it is bottom 1/3).
    #9 in Passer Rating.
    #5 in TD passes (although he has a game in hand on #4 - Brady). But Ben is 7 behind the leader.

    What in that says...MVP? He isn't leading the league in any individual stat and isn't even within shouting distance of the leaders in most categories.

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    Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Maybe? Who knows? Who cares?

    Unless he goes on an 7 game tear, 2020 Ben R has laughable MVP stats. Play around here: https://www.footballdb.com/statistic...g?sort=passpct

    About #12 or so if you take out injured guys or their replacements in comp %
    About #15 in yards.
    I didn't even bother to count how far down the list in YPA he was (it is bottom 1/3).
    #9 in Passer Rating.
    #5 in TD passes (although he has a game in hand on #4 - Brady). But Ben is 7 behind the leader.

    What in that says...MVP? He isn't leading the league in any individual stat and isn't even within shouting distance of the leaders in most categories.
    It is Most Valuable PLAYER. Not Most Stats by a Player. Unfortunately, it does go by Most Stats...so that eliminates Ben at the moment.

    However, 8-8 team without a guy. 9-0 team with a guy. I don’t know, that seems like he’s pretty valuable...no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    The W-L record is also very important to win the MVP....Outside of Peterson in 2012,every players who won the MVP in the last 10 years,their team were in the top 2 seed in their conference.And I think that Mahomes deserve to have the MVP right now.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    If a first ballot hall of famer having a career year and going 16-0 (big if) can’t sniff MVP consideration then he shouldn’t be a first ballot HOF.

    Mojouw, with you everything is logic. But the MVP is not awarded by logic, but optics. If he goes 39/7 and 16-0 he’ll be in consideration.
    Last edited by DesertSteel; 11-18-2020 at 04:27 PM.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    It is Most Valuable PLAYER. Not Most Stats by a Player. Unfortunately, it does go by Most Stats...so that eliminates Ben at the moment.

    However, 8-8 team without a guy. 9-0 team with a guy. I don’t know, that seems like he’s pretty valuable...no?
    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    If a first ballot hall of famer having a career year and going 16-0 (big if) can’t sniff MVP consideration then he shouldn’t be a first ballot HOF.

    Mojouw, with you everything is logic. But the MVP is not awarded by logic, but optics. If he goes 39/7 and 16-0 he’ll be in consideration.
    Fine. Go with optics. Find a "signature" play from Ben's MVP season? Find a throw that makes you sit up and say "WOW! How did he do that?!!" I can't think of one.

    Playing competent NFL QB and being backed up by utter incompetence isn't the basis for an NFL MVP campaign.

    Personally, I really couldn't care less. All these awards are nonsense to me. But to have an entire thread that amounts to how Ben R is gonna get jobbed out of the MVP is just a bit of an overzealous reaction.

    There are 7 more games. Who knows what might happen?

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Well to start with I don't think they're going 16-0 so it's all hypothetical. Nor do I care if he wins it; I'd rather see a Super Bowl win.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Fine. Go with optics. Find a "signature" play from Ben's MVP season? Find a throw that makes you sit up and say "WOW! How did he do that?!!" I can't think of one.

    Playing competent NFL QB and being backed up by utter incompetence isn't the basis for an NFL MVP campaign.

    Personally, I really couldn't care less. All these awards are nonsense to me. But to have an entire thread that amounts to how Ben R is gonna get jobbed out of the MVP is just a bit of an overzealous reaction.

    There are 7 more games. Who knows what might happen?

    I openly said I didn’t care but fact is based on what the team was and would be without Ben he ‘should’ be in the discussion regardless of stats.

    Again my argument is IF this were Rodgers doing what Ben is doing you wouldn’t nor would the national media be arguing it. It would already be a done deal for CPOY AND MVP.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I openly said I didn’t care but fact is based on what the team was and would be without Ben he ‘should’ be in the discussion regardless of stats.

    Again my argument is IF this were Rodgers doing what Ben is doing you wouldn’t nor would the national media be arguing it. It would already be a done deal for CPOY AND MVP.
    Maybe. The way some of the media was shoveling dirt on Rodgers grave the past 2 years, I'm not sure I agree.

    But I think the Ben/Non Ben argument is valid but totally overrated since most of this board has Mason Rudolph PTSD. Sure, Ben is a MASSIVE upgrade from Rudolph-Hodges. But how big of an upgrade is he from Kirk Cousins, Garappalo, Minshew, or some other "average" QB.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    IF.....If any team goes undefeated in the regular season, not saying the Steelers will or that any team will ever again, just that IF any team was to go undefeated for the regular season and their QB was not in the MVP conversation, I would find that very odd. At 9-0 Ben is not in this conversation but there are murmurs and rumors of murmurs starting about should he be in the conversation. I think he SHOULD be in the conversation at this point but not really concerned one way or the other that he is not. Just keep winning games, the rest will take care of itself.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Maybe. The way some of the media was shoveling dirt on Rodgers grave the past 2 years, I'm not sure I agree.

    But I think the Ben/Non Ben argument is valid but totally overrated since most of this board has Mason Rudolph PTSD. Sure, Ben is a MASSIVE upgrade from Rudolph-Hodges. But how big of an upgrade is he from Kirk Cousins, Garappalo, Minshew, or some other "average" QB.

    I don’t know what you smoke or what you’ve watched but saying those names in the same sentence as comparison to Ben is insanity and sad to even consider yourself a ‘fan’. And truth be told ‘most’ stuff you say is knowledgeable but I’m a blunt person and this is just fucking stupidity.

    I mean IF Ben were average the overall aspect of the ‘team’ would be average but average they are not.

    the only thing the media says about Rodgers is how he doesn’t have ‘weapons’ or a ‘defense’ or this or that is all bullshit to protect him and his utter failures when games count.
    if you haven’t been paying attention the media already told you the excuse for the packers failure this year it’s that they didn’t trade for a receiver at the deadline.
    but if Rodgers weren’t such a wank he’d develop his receivers kinda like how Ben has since 2010 once Holmes was gone as he hasn’t had a top rd pick since then.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Sure, Ben is a MASSIVE upgrade from Rudolph-Hodges. But how big of an upgrade is he from Kirk Cousins, Garappalo, Minshew, or some other "average" QB.
    Simple - the Steelers don't come back from a double-digit halftime deficit and their run D getting ripped a new one (while their own running game was stuck in neutral) in Baltimore with any of those other QBs.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    Simple - the Steelers don't come back from a double-digit halftime deficit and their run D getting ripped a new one (while their own running game was stuck in neutral) in Baltimore with any of those other QBs.
    this current team sans Ben is at best 2-7 but I’m also convinced they could be 0-9

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I don’t know what you smoke or what you’ve watched but saying those names in the same sentence as comparison to Ben is insanity and sad to even consider yourself a ‘fan’. And truth be told ‘most’ stuff you say is knowledgeable but I’m a blunt person and this is just fucking stupidity.

    I mean IF Ben were average the overall aspect of the ‘team’ would be average but average they are not.

    the only thing the media says about Rodgers is how he doesn’t have ‘weapons’ or a ‘defense’ or this or that is all bullshit to protect him and his utter failures when games count.
    if you haven’t been paying attention the media already told you the excuse for the packers failure this year it’s that they didn’t trade for a receiver at the deadline.
    but if Rodgers weren’t such a wank he’d develop his receivers kinda like how Ben has since 2010 once Holmes was gone as he hasn’t had a top rd pick since then.
    Might want to dial it back there. I've never managed to mention Rodgers, but you work it into every post. Have fun with that.

    If you were to swap Ben out for a "average" or "replacement" level QB (I listed several names as examples) what would the Steelers record be? Perhaps not 9-0 but what about 6-3? Is three games an MVP?

    The concept of "WAR" isn't really a bizarre one for sports comparisons thanks to baseball. Call "replacement level" something in the Kirk Cousins neighborhood. So how many games above that does Ben get you?

    I figure through 9, they would have lost at least 2 maybe 3. In contrast, the Seahawks may not have won a single game. That could give Wilson a WAR of 6 to Ben's 3. So even though they have a worse record, is Wilson just as valuable? More so?

    I am not saying this is a perfect system or even the best one for evaluation...but it is where my linking of Ben and "average" came from. If you take a few deep breaths, I think you'll find it isn't ridiculous to say those words in the same sentence.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    this current team sans Ben is at best 2-7 but I’m also convinced they could be 0-9
    I give the D a little more credit than that. With a truly "average" QB, I think they're 5-4 right now and sitting in 3rd place in the AFC North.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Might want to dial it back there. I've never managed to mention Rodgers, but you work it into every post. Have fun with that.

    If you were to swap Ben out for a "average" or "replacement" level QB (I listed several names as examples) what would the Steelers record be? Perhaps not 9-0 but what about 6-3? Is three games an MVP?

    The concept of "WAR" isn't really a bizarre one for sports comparisons thanks to baseball. Call "replacement level" something in the Kirk Cousins neighborhood. So how many games above that does Ben get you?

    I figure through 9, they would have lost at least 2 maybe 3. In contrast, the Seahawks may not have won a single game. That could give Wilson a WAR of 6 to Ben's 3. So even though they have a worse record, is Wilson just as valuable? More so?

    I am not saying this is a perfect system or even the best one for evaluation...but it is where my linking of Ben and "average" came from. If you take a few deep breaths, I think you'll find it isn't ridiculous to say those words in the same sentence.
    i use Rodgers because of the mere fact he can do no wrong as you’re also wrong in that regard but agreed move on.

    again Wilson makes the Seahawks better no question but that’s like any QB in the NFL they ALL need help on defense some get by with playing ‘hot’ at the right time and some liked to ‘cheat’ to win.

    they as in the Steelers flukes 8 wins.
    when Ben was done I personally thought you’re lucky to win 2-3 games at this point but that defense in my view played so far over their heads they almost single handedly won games its was insane to watch.

    but look at how games have gone this year?
    Game 1 the giants were up 10-3 and 10-9 near the end of the first half
    that’s a loss sans Ben

    Game 2 they were down 17-14 at the end of the 3rd quarter
    another loss

    Game 3 they were down 14-3 early 2nd quarter and 21-17 at the half so that games a write off without Ben

    Game 4 they led the entire way but being 38-29 I’m not convinced the other 2 muster that many points let alone more than a fluke FG

    game 5 it’s the browns so they’d win 10-7 I’m being generous

    but you get the picture even your ‘average’ picks I don’t think win those other 4 games let alone some of the recent ones

    Ben is the sole difference regardless of what his overall stats are.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    I give the D a little more credit than that. With a truly "average" QB, I think they're 5-4 right now and sitting in 3rd place in the AFC North.
    im basing it on who they have on the roster and neither are what you would call average

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    I give the D a little more credit than that. With a truly "average" QB, I think they're 5-4 right now and sitting in 3rd place in the AFC North.
    I agree with you for that

    This is about the winning percentage that Tomlin has in his career without Ben(17-14)...Competitive and the steelers can win some games without Ben, even if their offense would be brutal(like 2010,2015 and 2019), but far from being a true contender.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    He is making the fewest mistakes of his career. That does not make him an MVP in comparison to a few others who have bigger stats. An MVP is nice, but a SB win is much better and a SB MVP is the tops.
    All Defense!

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by ALLD View Post
    He is making the fewest mistakes of his career. That does not make him an MVP in comparison to a few others who have bigger stats. An MVP is nice, but a SB win is much better and a SB MVP is the tops.
    agreed!
    be in the discussion just for the mere fact of what he’s meant to the team.
    Don’t care if he wins as I’ve seen on a few occasions it’s based on popularity.

    the ultimate prize and goal is the Lombardi as this current era that’s what seems to separate the top tier QBs and would also put Ben in that rare ‘elite’ category

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Anyone who pays attention here knows that I'm a fan of Big Ben. I defend him all the time, and try to explain why I believe he has been, and still is, a much better player than he gets credit for from almost everyone....including people right here at this message board.

    I don't believe Ben is a frontrunner for the MVP award from what he has done to this point of the season.

    I also believe that if Ben heats up even more, as it appears he might be doing right now, he will clearly be an MVP candidate by the end of the year. If he gets hot and throws another 19-23 touchdowns in the last 7 games while still limiting INT's, why wouldn't he be near the top of the MVP consideration? If the team goes 14-2 or better, and he goes something like 42 TD and 7 INT's......How in the hell could he not be considered?

    All I'm saying is NO, he probably hasn't done enough at this time to win the prize, but there is still plenty of time for him to add to all his stats, while possibly having the most important stat of all.....the best won/loss record in the NFL. To just dismiss that he has a chance is simply silly.

    I'm going to let the rest of the season play out before I make a final determination about the subject. The most important thing is for the team to keep winning. If the team succeeds, Ben is going to get a ton of credit from anyone paying attention.

    As for Ben not making wow throws, that's just some people not really knowing what's going on sometimes. Remember when Peyton Manning was with Denver getting rave reviews with managing the offense while barely being able to get out of his own way? Ben is doing much the same thing at times, except he is also putting up great numbers. He is literally creating opportunities with his command of the offense and manipulating the defenses at the line of scrimmage AND after the snap of the ball. The TD toss he made against the Bengals where he moves up in the pocket away from the rush, and throws an accurate ball with a defender hanging on him is the type of stuff that almost NO OTHER QUARTERBACKS ARE ABLE TO DO. It is taken for granted here at times, because they apparently fall in love with a bunch of young QBs that can't read defenses and have to create things with their legs and don't know the difference when they are watching it.

    Ben has been doing it lately with next to zero running game. What was Kirk Cousins doing before Dalvin Cook was tearing it up? Nothing.......Literally.....Nothing.

    Hell, even Mahomes has a very good running game. It makes thigs much, much easier, as does play action passing off of that run game because the quarterback doesn't have to read the defense the same way in play action. It dumbs down what the QB is expected to execute. Again, many here don't understand all that, but it is all part of the game and it is a fact that real pros at the position with the experience and knowledge control the game in ways that less experienced QB's do not.

    I commented about Lamar Jackson last year. I told everyone here that NFL teams were gathering tape on him and that they were going to take away some of the things he did to defenses last year and force him to read defenses and throw the ball more. He won NFL MVP, but a large part of that was the scheme they were running couldn't be figured out, particularly with Jackson's elite physical talent. Once they figured out how to limit much of what he could do with his legs, I said that he may take a step or two back. You see that happening this year. Again, it's just an understanding of how this stuff works.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    We all saw what the Steelers were like without Ben last year. Stats don’t tell the whole story, it’s also about moving the chains when it’s needed, not making mistakes, protecting the ball, getting the pass to the right guy (not forcing the ball into double coverage to AB like he used to). If the Steelers keep going like this I think Ben should be in the running for mvp. Although like others have said if he’s not it doesn’t matter, the Lombardi should be the ultimate goal.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I'd disagree. Baseball is a team sport but the pitcher has a W/L record. I think the same holds true for a QB. Just look up any QB on pro-football-reference.com and you'll find their W/L record as the first stat. This is a QB league.
    But in baseball (NL) especially, a pitcher can literally make every out AND score a run. Technically only he and a catcher need to take the field to make that happen, which is very different than an NFL qb depending on a o line an WRs, not to mention an entire defense to make a stop.


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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    But in baseball (NL) especially, a pitcher can literally make every out AND score a run. Technically only he and a catcher need to take the field to make that happen, which is very different than an NFL qb depending on a o line an WRs, not to mention an entire defense to make a stop.
    And how many times has that happened in baseball history?

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Here is an interesting stat I read this morning: "Despite their 9-0 record, the Steelers rank 31st, ahead of only the Jets, in percentage of pass attempts gaining more than 15 yards. Their rate of these explosive pass gains is 12.1 percent, which would be a low for them in any season with Roethlisberger as their primary starter."

    As has been said, there are still plenty of games to play. If the Steelers go 16-0...there will be a push to give the award to Ben. But to strengthen his case, every game from here on out has to look like the Bengals game on offense. All Ben. All the time. 250-325 yards per game. 2-4 TDs per game. No INTs. Conner and the run game an almost total afterthought. That is the recipe for Ben to compile an overwhelming case.

    You all can like it or not. I don't care. But most are talking about how the MVP voting is a flawed process and then trying to mount a case for a flawed candidate. The same candidate that didn't get a single vote when he led the league in passing. The contrast between the team with Ben and without Ben isn't going to move the needle. Most NFL teams are in that situation. At least the teams in the top half of the league.

    The Steelers need to win 14+ games and Ben needs to pile up stats at a Mahomes or Wilson rate. That's what it will take. I suspect that going 16-0 but it being viewed as taking place on the back of the defense and a VARIED offense, will shift the votes to another candidate who is seen as their teams ENTIRE reason for success.

    Honestly, other then the Bengals game, I haven't thought Ben's play was really all that great this season. He has no signature throw(s). He's looked rusty and off target all year. His biggest asset at this point is enough experience and savvy to run the 4 WR 1TE empty set. That's the Steelers offense right now. Is that something only Ben can do? Or could a reasonable accurate QB who can make quick decisions based on pre-snap reads also execute that offense? If the answer is "Yes" (and for me it is), then while Ben is playing well, he isn't playing exceptionally.

    But, once again, I've been told I'm out to lunch for looking at the situation based on logic and precedence.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    For those who think it's all about stats, in 2017 Brady won MVP with 32 TDs and 8 Ints. He passed for 4577 yards on 66.3% comp and a 102.8 rating.

    Ben's projections: 39 TDs and 7 Ints. He's on pace for 4030 yards passing with 66.8% comp and a 103.0 rating.

    So, he beats out Brady in 4 out of 5 categories and I can easily see Ben catching up in the yards passing over the last 7 games.

    I don't think Ben will win it but I also don't think those who believe he'll be in contention are morons.

  29. #89
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    For those who think it's all about stats, in 2017 Brady won MVP with 32 TDs and 8 Ints. He passed for 4577 yards on 66.3% comp and a 102.8 rating.

    Ben's projections: 39 TDs and 7 Ints. He's on pace for 4030 yards passing with 66.8% comp and a 103.0 rating.

    So, he beats out Brady in 4 out of 5 categories and I can easily see Ben catching up in the yards passing over the last 7 games.

    I don't think Ben will win it but I also don't think those who believe he'll be in contention are morons.
    In 2017, Brady:

    Led the league in passing yards.
    Was 4th in completion percentage.
    Was 5th in yards per attempt.
    Was 3rd in TDs (only 2 behind the league leader).
    Was 3rd in QB rating.

    The numbers in context of the 2017 NFL year, paint a different picture than those same statistics would paint in the 2020 NFL year.

    Ben is 600 yards off the league lead. 6 TDs off the lead. 12 points off the rate lead. 7% points off the completion lead. 2 full yards per attempt off the pace.

    Ben is my favorite NFL QB - has been his entire career. I've always thought he was consistently under-rated by fans, pundits, and NFL "experts" basically every season. I think he has done more than he has been credited for his entire career. If he leads the 2020 Steelers to 12 or more wins, it will be another impressive achievement in a HOF resume. If they go undefeated, he locks in his legacy for all time. If he leads the Steelers to a SB victory, his legacy goes up into the top tiers of "all time" guys.

    But I just don't see how that equates with an MVP if he continues to have middle of the road stats compared to the rest of the league.

  30. #90
    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    In 2017, Brady:

    Led the league in passing yards.
    Was 4th in completion percentage.
    Was 5th in yards per attempt.
    Was 3rd in TDs (only 2 behind the league leader).
    Was 3rd in QB rating.

    The numbers in context of the 2017 NFL year, paint a different picture than those same statistics would paint in the 2020 NFL year.

    Ben is 600 yards off the league lead. 6 TDs off the lead. 12 points off the rate lead. 7% points off the completion lead. 2 full yards per attempt off the pace.

    Ben is my favorite NFL QB - has been his entire career. I've always thought he was consistently under-rated by fans, pundits, and NFL "experts" basically every season. I think he has done more than he has been credited for his entire career. If he leads the 2020 Steelers to 12 or more wins, it will be another impressive achievement in a HOF resume. If they go undefeated, he locks in his legacy for all time. If he leads the Steelers to a SB victory, his legacy goes up into the top tiers of "all time" guys.

    But I just don't see how that equates with an MVP if he continues to have middle of the road stats compared to the rest of the league.
    And by the time the season is over I can see Ben being in the top 5 in every major statistical category. The season is barely half over and he's just now building rapport with 2 of his top 3 receivers.

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