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Thread: Big Ben MVP?

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    Senior Member Array title="polamalubeast has a reputation beyond repute">

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?


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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ben is currently having a really good year, as are a number of other QB's in the NFL. Here is where he ranks in some categories:

    15th- in Passing Yardage
    5th -in Passing TD's
    8th -in Passer Rating
    tied for 11th- in Completion Percentage
    So you're saying that a guy who doesn't lead the league in a single major statistical category for passing doesn't have a sure-fire case for MVP? You don't say...

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    True, but it'd be #3 for Ben. And how epic would it be to go out after being the only 19-0 team in history?
    I’d suffer through another Mark Malone, Cliff Stoudt, Mike Tomczak type era for that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    I want to see the steelers win the super bowl, but I don't think 19-0 is realistic, but sometimes we have seen impossible things happen in sports.. It would be an even more incredible feeling and it would be legendary. But one game at a time...

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So you're saying that a guy who doesn't lead the league in a single major statistical category for passing doesn't have a sure-fire case for MVP? You don't say...
    Its just media bias.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    I’d suffer through another Mark Malone, Cliff Stoudt, Mike Tomczak type era for that...
    ........maybe Mike and Mark.....but Cliff? I just don’t know.

  8. #38

    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    It doesn’t matter how good Ben is...there are four media darlings that no matter what he does, he will never surpass Mahomes, Wilson, Murray or Rodgers...
    Thing is, Mahomes legitimately deserves it. So far this season, he's thrown for 25 TDs and 1 INT, 2687 yards, and has a passer rtg of 115.9 for the year.

    Honestly, I have no problem with Rodgers either. He's thrown for 26 TDs, 3 INts, 2578 yards, and a 116.4 percent pass rating.

    By comparison, Ben's thrown for 22 TDs, 4 INTs, 2267 yards, and a 103 pass rating.

    In short, he's just not lighting it up like Mahomes or Rodgers, and in today's NFL. If a QB wants to win the MVP award, you have to light it up. On the other hand, one argument that may be made in Ben's favor is that with virtually the same team last year, we were 8-8 without him. But, that's also true of most all QBs, so I don't know.


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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    It could change if Ben has some big games in the next few weeks and the steelers remain unbeaten, but Mahomes is going to be very hard to catch up.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ben is currently having a really good year, as are a number of other QB's in the NFL. Here is where he ranks in some categories:

    15th- in Passing Yardage
    5th -in Passing TD's
    8th -in Passer Rating
    tied for 11th- in Completion Percentage
    1st -Winning Percentage
    Fixed it for you.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Fixed it for you.
    OK, but I guess if that is the barometer on being an MVP, then Trent Dilfer deserved an MVP because the 2001 Ravens won the Super Bowl.

    We know that isnt the reality and that there are 52 other guys on the team other than the starting QB. Again, Ben having a good year, I dont know if its even his best year, but cant complain about the record. I just think there are a few guys ahead of him in the MVP race and deservedly so.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Its just media bias.
    Well, a lot of it is. The fact that he's still in a dead heat with Alex Smith for CPOY at this point kinda confirms that.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    Well, a lot of it is. The fact that he's still in a dead heat with Alex Smith for CPOY at this point kinda confirms that.
    OK, I was kind of being sarcastic with that comment. I guess I should have used an emoji. I dont think Ben should be a leading candidate for MVP at this point. Still lots of season left, so we can hope, but objectively I dont think its yet MVP worthy.

    I havent seen the odds on Comeback player, but considering some questioned if he would have the arm strength or range of motion after the surgery and Tannenbaum went full idiot with his prediction, I would think Ben should be pretty much in the clubhouse waiting for that award already. Alex Smith can walk and run, but I caught the last 5 minutes of the Detroit game this Sunday and Smith has Charlie Batch-weak arm syndrome and should retire.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    OK, I was kind of being sarcastic with that comment. I guess I should have used an emoji. I dont think Ben should be a leading candidate for MVP at this point. Still lots of season left, so we can hope, but objectively I dont think its yet MVP worthy.

    I havent seen the odds on Comeback player, but considering some questioned if he would have the arm strength or range of motion after the surgery and Tannenbaum went full idiot with his prediction, I would think Ben should be pretty much in the clubhouse waiting for that award already. Alex Smith can walk and run, but I caught the last 5 minutes of the Detroit game this Sunday and Smith has Charlie Batch-weak arm syndrome and should retire.
    Sorry, I missed the sarcasm.

    And I think the MVP is Mahomes' to lose at this point.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    OK, but I guess if that is the barometer on being an MVP, then Trent Dilfer deserved an MVP because the 2001 Ravens won the Super Bowl.

    We know that isnt the reality and that there are 52 other guys on the team other than the starting QB. Again, Ben having a good year, I dont know if its even his best year, but cant complain about the record. I just think there are a few guys ahead of him in the MVP race and deservedly so.
    A. It’s a regular season award.
    B. There’s something very special about leading a team that goes 16-0.
    C. If Ben does that and throws 39 TDs and only 7 Ints (his projection), then I think he had a strong chance.
    D. I can’t believe you compared Ben to Dilfer.
    E. I don’t care if he wins it or not, but it’s the thread topic.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Here’s a thought:

    Ben has to overcome the horrific playcalling of Randy Fichtner.

    Really. If Ben was allowed to call his own plays for the entire game (not just when we “need” him to it in the fourth quarter), Ben might have 39 TDs already. It’s like Ben is playing against opposing defenses AND against his own offensive coordinator.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    The steelers had 10 offensive TD in the last 9 games last year...This year in the first 9 games,the steelers have 31 offensive TD,so the QB is not only one player as the other in a team,he is by far the most important player of the team.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    A. It’s a regular season award.
    B. There’s something very special about leading a team that goes 16-0.
    C. If Ben does that and throws 39 TDs and only 7 Ints (his projection), then I think he had a strong chance.
    D. I can’t believe you compared Ben to Dilfer.
    E. I don’t care if he wins it or not, but it’s the thread topic.
    Team wins are not a QB statistic. They are a team statistic.

    If Minkah Fitzpatrick doesnt make 2 game ending pass breakups, the Steelers lose games vs Baltimore and Dallas. That is a team victory. Othewise the Steelers are 7-2 and in 2nd place.

    Anytime somebody brings up QB record as a team stat or compares " Super Bowl Winning QB's"....Trent Dilfer is the obvious choice to point out that team victory is not a QB stat.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Ben Roethlisberger has an excellent case for CPOY. He has no case, currently, for MVP.

    Lead the league in at least a single individual stat category first.

    No wonder you all are usually so angry. Your expectations are more outsized than a fat kid looking at birthday cake.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Team wins are not a QB statistic. They are a team statistic.
    I'd disagree. Baseball is a team sport but the pitcher has a W/L record. I think the same holds true for a QB. Just look up any QB on pro-football-reference.com and you'll find their W/L record as the first stat. This is a QB league.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Team wins are not a QB statistic. They are a team statistic.

    If Minkah Fitzpatrick doesnt make 2 game ending pass breakups, the Steelers lose games vs Baltimore and Dallas. That is a team victory. Othewise the Steelers are 7-2 and in 2nd place.

    Anytime somebody brings up QB record as a team stat or compares " Super Bowl Winning QB's"....Trent Dilfer is the obvious choice to point out that team victory is not a QB stat.
    Yes the W-L record is a QB stats...

    https://www.footballdb.com/stats/qb-records.html

  22. #52
    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I'd disagree. Baseball is a team sport but the pitcher has a W/L record. I think the same holds true for a QB. Just look up any QB on pro-football-reference.com and you'll find their W/L record as the first stat. This is a QB league.
    We will agree to disagree. I really dont think comparing Baseball to Football is a relevant comparison, as they are sports with entirely different game flow and demands. I will submit as evidence, two of Ben's best seasons and the TEAM outcome in those seasons :

    -2014 Steelers. Ben has 4952 Passing Yards, 32TD and 9 INT. Steelers finish 11-5 and lost in the Wildcard round.

    -2018 Steelers. Ben has 5129 Passing Yards, 34TD and 14 INT. Steelers finish 9-6-1 and do not qualify for playoffs.


    Those are 2 really great seasons of 5,000 yds passing and a TD:INT ratio in the neighborhood of 3 to 1. but the team didn't succeed because the collective other 52 players on the roster didn't perform to those levels or the coaches didn't make decisions to aid the Steelers in better results.

  23. #53
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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    We will agree to disagree. I really dont think comparing Baseball to Football is a relevant comparison, as they are sports with entirely different game flow and demands. I will submit as evidence, two of Ben's best seasons and the TEAM outcome in those seasons :

    -2014 Steelers. Ben has 4952 Passing Yards, 32TD and 9 INT. Steelers finish 11-5 and lost in the Wildcard round.

    -2018 Steelers. Ben has 5129 Passing Yards, 34TD and 14 INT. Steelers finish 9-6-1 and do not qualify for playoffs.


    Those are 2 really great seasons of 5,000 yds passing and a TD:INT ratio in the neighborhood of 3 to 1. but the team didn't succeed because the collective other 52 players on the roster didn't perform to those levels or the coaches didn't make decisions to aid the Steelers in better results.
    Of course, the context is very important .... As in 2014,11-5 was very good considering that steelers defense were probably their worst since 1988 .... 2018 was probably the worst season of Ben since at least 2012.He was not bad,but he had almost 700 pass attempts and it was the reason why he had over 5000 yards.

    You can't judge a player just by raw numbers or just by one numbers ... But when after 17 seasons a QB still has a winning percentage of over 68%, you need to be great, especially after 225 starts.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    Of course, the context is very important .... As in 2014,11-5 was very good considering that steelers defense were probably their worst since 1988 .... 2018 was probably the worst season of Ben since at least 2012.He was not bad,but he had almost 700 pass attempts and it was the reason why he had over 5000 yards.

    You can't judge a player just by raw numbers or just by one numbers ... But when after 17 seasons a QB still has a winning percentage of over 68%, you need to be great, especially after 225 starts.
    So in 2014 Ben was only 11-5 and got bounced in the wildcard round in the playoffs is because the defense was the worst they had been in decades? But Ben is 9-0 in 2020 because he is an MVP candidate?

    This is the point I am making. You cant objectively defend a record by saying its not the QB's fault, but then attribute a perfect season to being the QB's credit. Its a team game and team wins and losses.

    As for 2018, I dont know how many times as a fan I have said "the QB didnt lose that game today". Whether its Ben, Marino, Esiason, Bubby Brister, Steve McNair, etc. Likewise, I have many times said to a kid I coached, who just balled out in a loss..."hey man, that wasnt on you...great game".

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So in 2014 Ben was only 11-5 and got bounced in the wildcard round in the playoffs is because the defense was the worst they had been in decades? But Ben is 9-0 in 2020 because he is an MVP candidate?

    This is the point I am making. You cant objectively defend a record by saying its not the QB's fault, but then attribute a perfect season to being the QB's credit. Its a team game and team wins and losses.

    As for 2018, I dont know how many times as a fan I have said "the QB didnt lose that game today". Whether its Ben, Marino, Esiason, Bubby Brister, Steve McNair, etc. Likewise, I have many times said to a kid I coached, who just balled out in a loss..."hey man, that wasnt on you...great game".

    I understand your point, but fair or not,I have already seen some QB win the MVP just because their team had a great win-loss record like Peyton Manning in 2009....

    But BTW, I have Mahomes for the MVP right now with Rodgers, Wilson and maybe Murray behind Mahomes ... Ben is a possibility after that, but it would be a miracle if Ben wins the MVP.For 2014 he had better chance but he had a slow start in his first 6 games.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?


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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    One of the few times I agree with him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubanstogie View Post
    One of the few times I agree with him.
    I don’t know about Brady fourth though. Top three I agree with.
    Last edited by cubanstogie; 11-17-2020 at 03:39 PM.

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    You can get the idea of comeback player of the year for Ben...


    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

  29. #59
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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    I'd rather Ben win SuperBowl MVP...

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    Re: Big Ben MVP?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So in 2014 Ben was only 11-5 and got bounced in the wildcard round in the playoffs is because the defense was the worst they had been in decades? But Ben is 9-0 in 2020 because he is an MVP candidate?

    This is the point I am making. You cant objectively defend a record by saying its not the QB's fault, but then attribute a perfect season to being the QB's credit. Its a team game and team wins and losses.

    As for 2018, I dont know how many times as a fan I have said "the QB didnt lose that game today". Whether its Ben, Marino, Esiason, Bubby Brister, Steve McNair, etc. Likewise, I have many times said to a kid I coached, who just balled out in a loss..."hey man, that wasnt on you...great game".
    Except if the perfect record was done by Aaron 'Mr Overrated' Rodgers then it would be all Rodgers like it always is because I've heard he doesn't need help.
    It's hilarious really how the media spins things for certain players.

    Ben at minimum should be in the discussion.
    Honestly people need to think what's this teams record without Ben is and at BEST i have them 2-7 but really QB play would say a lot and I also wouldn't be surprised if they were 0-9.

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