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Thread: 2020 election fraud update thread

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    Okay. You know I respect you and your opinions, but I don't see how anyone that can think ,can sit there and say with any honesty at all that they think there was nothing fishy at all about how this election went down. I just don't get it. I'll accept Biden as the POTUS... but there is no way I believe this election was on the up and up.................. and neither do you.

    It's all but over. I'll just get through the next 4 years. All I'm really hoping for at this point is, that this country will never use another program developed in a socialist/communist country to count our votes... and do not use servers in another country for the same. This election is/was a sham. It is what it is.... but it is quite evident that there was quite a bit of bullshit that happened. So be it. Let's not repeat this in 2024.
    I believe that the election was totally on the up and up -- or at least as legitimate as any other US election has ever been.

    Everything I have read (and it has been a lot) claiming otherwise has not stood up to any scrutiny whatsoever. The only places that are holding up these claims (the ones in your post) are the far fringe elements of the internet and the administration. The primary person advancing these arguments is Powell. Someone who is so unhinged and not credible on the issue of 2020 election fraud that both Trump and Rudy G disavowed all association with her.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54959962

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    Why is that funny?

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    Why is that funny?
    Because that's how losers react when they've got nothing. Projecting false bravado and self-satisfaction. That's why it's "funny." But actually ...

    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    Okay. You know I respect you and your opinions, but I don't see how anyone that can think ,can sit there and say with any honesty at all that they think there was nothing fishy at all about how this election went down. I just don't get it. I'll accept Biden as the POTUS... but there is no way I believe this election was on the up and up...................
    Why? Because Trump said so?



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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    Why is that funny?
    Social experiment. I posted a quote from current issue of Psychology Today on Conspiracy Theory motives. It wasn't directed at anybody specific. The initial reaction was somewhat predictable, but I didnt think it would be so true to form.

    Example, when you goto a meeting with approximately 10 friends, the first person to say "Listen, I dont have a drinking problem!" is the one that the intervention was planned for.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Once again, El Gonzo Jackson has outfoxed us all.

    Outfoxed us in his mind.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    what Pa did before the legislature on Thanksgiving eve is happening in Arizona today , Pa will likely send its own people to the electoral college and Arizona and others may follow suit ... the MSM isnt reporting any of this because they want people to believe what they say and they only say Biden Biden Biden ... if you hear a lie enough times it becomes the truth is their motto ......

    our founding fathers were brilliant men and thought of damn near everything to assure RIGHTFUL elections and have safeguards in place for corruption ... we shall see if it works out as planned a few hundred years ago
    Follow me on parler @Dwinsgames

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    what Pa did before the legislature on Thanksgiving eve is happening in Arizona today , Pa will likely send its own people to the electoral college and Arizona and others may follow suit ... the MSM isnt reporting any of this because they want people to believe what they say and they only say Biden Biden Biden ... if you hear a lie enough times it becomes the truth is their motto ......

    our founding fathers were brilliant men and thought of damn near everything to assure RIGHTFUL elections and have safeguards in place for corruption ... we shall see if it works out as planned a few hundred years ago
    If what is being said in the Arizona hearing is true, they had people on the inside in at least some of these states, and all of the insistence about "no evidence" is about to go poof.

    I mean, not that there weren't already hundreds of people including poll workers coming forward to testify that they witnessed fraud with their own eyes. But if you're a Democrat, you just ignore that and say it doesn't count, they must all be making it up, and then the media will bury it for you.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    You know what, I'll play. Why not? Let us all assume that there was massive and pervasive election fraud/rigging. It seems, if I understand the theories properly, that the next link in the chain is that the "mainstream media" is complicit in this fraud and actively participating in a cover-up. Okay. Again, assume that is true. Don't most conspiracies/plots/coups/whatever typically have a tangible benefit to all parties involved? In this case, take the "media" what is the actual benefit to them?

    1. It can't be ratings. This is usually a critique leveled at the media that they are only in it for the ratings and not the truth. If they daily reported the gradual or even sudden uncovering and unraveling of a vast deep state liberal plot to steal the election; they would have ratings gold for the next decade! Woodward and Bernstein are still coasting on Watergate! People would be glued to their TVs/Phones/Tablets/Whatevers and would be going without sleep to follow all the "breaking developments". A massive election fraud expose would be an all-time windfall for the "media".

    2. It can't be that the media benefits from "liberals" being in power. They actually don't. The tax and regulatory positions favored by liberal politicians are actively harmful to the bottom lines of individual media outlets, the giant conglomerates that own them, and the (typically) hyper-rich individuals that helm them. What benefit do either media companies or media honchos get from a Biden presidency?

    3. How would the actual rigging work? I mean I get how everyone thinks it can be done. But, how do you maintain the cohesion of all the moving parts? What is the incentive of each cog to do their part and then keep quiet about it? Think about your workplace. How long after you hear this sentence in the break-room "Don't tell anyone but..." until the entire workforce knows? People, particularly large groups of people, absolutely suck at keeping secrets. It essentially almost never is successful. Just think of all the $$$ it would take to keep all the players silent. What about Bob the retiree from Arizona with 3 grand-kids in college? How much of a pay-out is he going to ask for to keep his yap shut?

    4. How is nothing documented in an age of constant HD video and photography? Every person on the planet has at least on device on them at all times that CIA and KGB during the Cold War would have moved heaven and earth to get their hands on. Yet not a single person has been able to produce evidence of fraud? We have more images of the Roswell aliens and Bigfoot than we do have the 2020 election fraud. Remember all those internet "journalists" that made videos trying to get ACORN and Planned Parenthood in trouble on camera? I am supposed to believe that in one of the most virulent elections ever that not a single "journalist" attempted to insert themselves into the election process and document the fraud that they believed was going to happen?

    For points 3-4, again imagine the ratings bonanza if some media outlet got even ONE credible person to deliver on this? That individual would be set for life and that media outlet would be immediately vaulted to the top of the heap.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumblosseselections View Post
    what Pa did before the legislature on Thanksgiving eve is happening in Arizona today , Pa will likely send its own people to the electoral college and Arizona and others may follow suit ... the MSM isnt reporting any of this because they want people to believe what they say and they only say Biden Biden Biden ... if you hear a lie enough times it becomes the truth is their motto ......

    our founding fathers were brilliant men and thought of damn near everything to assure RIGHTFUL elections and have safeguards in place for corruption ... we shall see if it works out as planned a few hundred years ago
    Quote Originally Posted by steelrectum View Post
    If what is being said in the Arizona hearing is true, they had people on the inside in at least some of these states, and all of the insistence about "no evidence" is about to go poof.

    I mean, not that there weren't already hundreds of people including poll workers coming forward to testify that they witnessed fraud with their own eyes. But if you're a Democrat, you just ignore that and say it doesn't count, they must all be making it up, and then the media will bury it for you.
    I have never seen anything even close to this kind of bone dumb nonsense in America in my life. It's an insult to everyone who fought, died, was wounded, etc., for this country. It's an insult to the constitution, the founding fathers, and all our symbols such as the flag, the eagle, and so on. It's an insult to the human mind and it's ability to reason. Jesus H. Christ.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    I have never seen anything even close to this kind of bone dumb nonsense in America in my life. It's an insult to everyone who fought, died, was wounded, etc., for this country. It's an insult to the constitution, the founding fathers, and all our symbols such as the flag, the eagle, and so on. It's an insult to the human mind and it's ability to reason. Jesus H. Christ.
    It’s downright scary that so many people can believe something so egregious without credible proof or evidence.
    It’s cult mentality at its finest.

  12. #342
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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You know what, I'll play. Why not? Let us all assume that there was massive and pervasive election fraud/rigging. It seems, if I understand the theories properly, that the next link in the chain is that the "mainstream media" is complicit in this fraud and actively participating in a cover-up. Okay. Again, assume that is true. Don't most conspiracies/plots/coups/whatever typically have a tangible benefit to all parties involved? In this case, take the "media" what is the actual benefit to them?

    1. It can't be ratings. This is usually a critique leveled at the media that they are only in it for the ratings and not the truth. If they daily reported the gradual or even sudden uncovering and unraveling of a vast deep state liberal plot to steal the election; they would have ratings gold for the next decade! Woodward and Bernstein are still coasting on Watergate! People would be glued to their TVs/Phones/Tablets/Whatevers and would be going without sleep to follow all the "breaking developments". A massive election fraud expose would be an all-time windfall for the "media".

    2. It can't be that the media benefits from "liberals" being in power. They actually don't. The tax and regulatory positions favored by liberal politicians are actively harmful to the bottom lines of individual media outlets, the giant conglomerates that own them, and the (typically) hyper-rich individuals that helm them. What benefit do either media companies or media honchos get from a Biden presidency?

    3. How would the actual rigging work? I mean I get how everyone thinks it can be done. But, how do you maintain the cohesion of all the moving parts? What is the incentive of each cog to do their part and then keep quiet about it? Think about your workplace. How long after you hear this sentence in the break-room "Don't tell anyone but..." until the entire workforce knows? People, particularly large groups of people, absolutely suck at keeping secrets. It essentially almost never is successful. Just think of all the $$$ it would take to keep all the players silent. What about Bob the retiree from Arizona with 3 grand-kids in college? How much of a pay-out is he going to ask for to keep his yap shut?

    4. How is nothing documented in an age of constant HD video and photography? Every person on the planet has at least on device on them at all times that CIA and KGB during the Cold War would have moved heaven and earth to get their hands on. Yet not a single person has been able to produce evidence of fraud? We have more images of the Roswell aliens and Bigfoot than we do have the 2020 election fraud. Remember all those internet "journalists" that made videos trying to get ACORN and Planned Parenthood in trouble on camera? I am supposed to believe that in one of the most virulent elections ever that not a single "journalist" attempted to insert themselves into the election process and document the fraud that they believed was going to happen?

    For points 3-4, again imagine the ratings bonanza if some media outlet got even ONE credible person to deliver on this? That individual would be set for life and that media outlet would be immediately vaulted to the top of the heap.
    How does the media benefit? In a business sense, very little, unless you count speaking to an increasingly cemented audience that likes hearing confirmation of its own opinions.

    How the media really benefits is that it is filled with people who personally want to see liberals in power, and those people get what they want. Consequently, where 20 years ago journalists viewed their job as a sacred duty because they were the ones who were entrusted by the public to discover the truth - today journalists view their job as a sacred duty because of their ability to influence the public. It is not a business decision, it is the result of a collective mentality that has snowballed out of control.

    That is why your #3 and #4 ought to make a compelling argument, but that is assuming they are playing by the rules of 20 years ago. Today's environment is more like, instead of the reporter being rewarded and hailed as bold and courageous for exposing the inconvenient truth - they are ostracized and the others immediately close ranks to discredit them. Instead of career-making bravery, it is career suicide.

    As for #3, "keeping secrets," it is absolutely correct that the more people are involved, the less likely it is to remain a secret. I don't think the media is "in on a conspiracy," but very likely they get hints from their friends in the party about what a nice story this or that would be, and they are naturally very receptive and helpful. If something is a little fishy, they're more than willing to let it slide without digging too hard. Why risk your own neck to get the scoop on a story that you hate and would go against every atom of your core beliefs - you'd be the one who helped Literally Hitler grab power!

    So when someone says, "Hey, did you know a Red Mirage is coming, and our experts say it's entirely likely that all the results will flip in the middle of the night, and that's no biggie, just what should be expected this time?" you go, "Hmm, why no, I didn't know that, sounds like an interesting and informative piece for our readers, thanks! Election fraud is exceptionally unusual and rarely affects the results!"

    The number of people at the center of any real fraud would probably have to be relatively small, but they'd just have to keep their mouths shut for a couple weeks until everybody bought it and moved on, or at least that was the plan. It would require many more people around the edges who were willing to look the other way, but Democrats have gotten so ends-justify-the-meansy that most probably don't have much problem with that either. Nonetheless, a few hundred didn't, which is why the closing ranks and discrediting is happening. And that's where we are right now.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    How does the media benefit? In a business sense, very little, unless you count speaking to an increasingly cemented audience that likes hearing confirmation of its own opinions.

    How the media really benefits is that it is filled with people who personally want to see liberals in power, and those people get what they want. Consequently, where 20 years ago journalists viewed their job as a sacred duty because they were the ones who were entrusted by the public to discover the truth - today journalists view their job as a sacred duty because of their ability to influence the public. It is not a business decision, it is the result of a collective mentality that has snowballed out of control.

    That is why your #3 and #4 ought to make a compelling argument, but that is assuming they are playing by the rules of 20 years ago. Today's environment is more like, instead of the reporter being rewarded and hailed as bold and courageous for exposing the inconvenient truth - they are ostracized and the others immediately close ranks to discredit them. Instead of career-making bravery, it is career suicide.

    As for #3, "keeping secrets," it is absolutely correct that the more people are involved, the less likely it is to remain a secret. I don't think the media is "in on a conspiracy," but very likely they get hints from their friends in the party about what a nice story this or that would be, and they are naturally very receptive and helpful. If something is a little fishy, they're more than willing to let it slide without digging too hard. Why risk your own neck to get the scoop on a story that you hate and would go against every atom of your core beliefs - you'd be the one who helped Literally Hitler grab power!

    So when someone says, "Hey, did you know a Red Mirage is coming, and our experts say it's entirely likely that all the results will flip in the middle of the night, and that's no biggie, just what should be expected this time?" you go, "Hmm, why no, I didn't know that, sounds like an interesting and informative piece for our readers, thanks! Election fraud is exceptionally unusual and rarely affects the results!"

    The number of people at the center of any real fraud would probably have to be relatively small, but they'd just have to keep their mouths shut for a couple weeks until everybody bought it and moved on, or at least that was the plan. It would require many more people around the edges who were willing to look the other way, but Democrats have gotten so ends-justify-the-meansy that most probably don't have much problem with that either. Nonetheless, a few hundred didn't, which is why the closing ranks and discrediting is happening. And that's where we are right now.
    So basically, you're reasoning for a vast, complex, and fiendishly expensive conspiracy being enacted is because people have personal preferences? And further, that those personal preferences have no positive impacts on the business interests involved? In fact, they actively harm the multi-billion dollar entities that are involved?

    I mean that literally fails to make sense.

    Honestly, this is the same thing I have been hearing when it comes to people telling me that archaeologists/scientists cover up the "real truth" about the past and evidence for aliens is being suppressed. Again, there is ZERO self-interest for any researchers to suppress this. There is nowhere near enough funding to go around and little priority is placed on the increasingly expensive study and preservation of the prehistoric past. You know what would turn that money spigot on? Aliens, dude, aliens. Researchers would be riding a never ending river of funding to unravel the secrets of "Ancient Aliens". Instead, because there is zero evidence/proof of alien contact in the past, the "proof" is that people are covering it up for unknown reasons that violate their own self-interest.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancoLambert View Post
    It’s downright scary that so many people can believe something so egregious without credible proof or evidence.
    It’s cult mentality at its finest.
    Yeah, kinda like people believing in Russian collusion, and spying on Trump campaign. Thats right there was spying Trump campaign. Looks like GOP has better track record of predictions

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cubanstogie View Post
    Yeah, kinda like people believing in Russian collusion, and spying on Trump campaign. Thats right there was spying Trump campaign. Looks like GOP has better track record of predictions
    Of course the collusion is never mentioned, totally forgotten by the certain few.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcityboyz View Post
    Of course the collusion is never mentioned, totally forgotten by the certain few.
    But Adam Shiff has proof, still waiting. Libs are so blinded by TDS they cant see hypocrisy.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Without question the Democrat's over emphasized the possible collusion part of the Mueller investigation. It was always, certainly in my mind, much more about what kind of things Russia was up to during the 2016 presidential election run? The investigation proved our intelligence community correct in that they were up to plenty. It also said Trump was not actively involved in any collision. I believe that. But, has Trumps actions, including his post 2020 election accusations about election fraud played into Russia's hands? Absolutely. Trump is without question in my mind as big a threat to our Republic as Putin. Trump is without question in my mind as big a threat to this Republic as 9/11 was. Trump is the enemy and if you don't realize that you're a fool.




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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    75 million fools, but you know what you’re talking about. Sure. Neither Trump nor Putin is a threat. China is the threat, even prior to giving us wuhan virus. Gaslighting obviously worked with you, except for election fraud gaslighting. Oh wait CNN and msnbs dont mention it, my bad.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cubanstogie View Post
    75 million fools, but you know what you’re talking about. Sure. Neither Trump nor Putin is a threat. China is the threat, even prior to giving us wuhan virus. Gaslighting obviously worked with you, except for election fraud gaslighting. Oh wait CNN and msnbs dont mention it, my bad.
    Happens in countries all over the world all the time. How does it feel to be one of those we used to feel sorry for in this country?

    but you know what you’re talking about. Sure.
    Me and 80 million other Americans.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Happens in countries all over the world all the time. How does it feel to be one of those we used to feel sorry for in this country?



    Me and 80 million other Americans.
    Hardly foolish to actually want a country with borders opposed to letting all in and pay for their college and give cash handouts, not to mention giving slap on wrist for additional crimes on top of breaking into country.Hardly foolish to want fair trade and not wanting to protect other countries on our dime. Hardly foolish to lower unemployment for all ethnic groups and lower those dependent on food stamps. You have a strange definition for fools. But hey Im replying to a guy whose party supports defunding police. Talk about foolish.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cubanstogie View Post
    Hardly foolish to actually want a country with borders opposed to letting all in and pay for their college and give cash handouts, not to mention giving slap on wrist for additional crimes on top of breaking into country.Hardly foolish to want fair trade and not wanting to protect other countries on our dime. Hardly foolish to lower unemployment for all ethnic groups and lower those dependent on food stamps. You have a strange definition for fools. But hey Im replying to a guy whose party supports defunding police. Talk about foolish.
    Tripe.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Tripe.
    Hardly, they’re facts. But you keep generalizing, I’ll keep disputing with facts.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Yeah, well, 80 million Americans said this is tripe:
    Hardly foolish to actually want a country with borders opposed to letting all in and pay for their college and give cash handouts, not to mention giving slap on wrist for additional crimes on top of breaking into country.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tom444 View Post
    Yeah, well, 80 million Americans said this is tripe:
    Not really, a large number just hate Trump. Very few want open borders or defund police. Covid and Trump hate is why he allegedly lost. Not foolishness.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So basically, you're reasoning for a vast, complex, and fiendishly expensive conspiracy being enacted is because people have personal preferences? And further, that those personal preferences have no positive impacts on the business interests involved? In fact, they actively harm the multi-billion dollar entities that are involved?

    I mean that literally fails to make sense.

    Honestly, this is the same thing I have been hearing when it comes to people telling me that archaeologists/scientists cover up the "real truth" about the past and evidence for aliens is being suppressed. Again, there is ZERO self-interest for any researchers to suppress this. There is nowhere near enough funding to go around and little priority is placed on the increasingly expensive study and preservation of the prehistoric past. You know what would turn that money spigot on? Aliens, dude, aliens. Researchers would be riding a never ending river of funding to unravel the secrets of "Ancient Aliens". Instead, because there is zero evidence/proof of alien contact in the past, the "proof" is that people are covering it up for unknown reasons that violate their own self-interest.
    No, I'm arguing for a small or smallish conspiracy among insiders of a certain political party, which is totally likely and happens frequently. The media is just full of cheerleaders who don't do journalism anymore - it is a performance space.

    Still good money to be made from that - the National Enquirer has been around for nearly 100 years, after all - but there is little credibility left in the traditional media outlets, just a partisan show.

    Again, the media is not part of a "conspiracy," they just have coinciding interests because of the type of people the job attracts these days. The hard-boiled reporter you see in movies is a thing of the past - the standard now is a self-absorbed activist who wants to be heard and wants to show everyone how righteous they are. Lots of bias and lots of groupthink, little credibility left. But they do it all on their own.

    Similarly, I think you will find a lot of like-minded people in the lower ranks of bureaucracy. Not people who are engaged in a conspiracy, but just like in the media, people who will walk away whistling while others are doing the dirty work, because they want the same result. Just coinciding interests.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by commiecigar View Post
    ............... allegedly lost.................
    Back to the original tripe huh.

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    One idiot gone:

    Dr. Scott Atlas resigns from Trump administration

    Washington (CNN) — Dr. Scott Atlas, a highly controversial member of the White House's coronavirus task force, has resigned from his post in the Trump administration.


    .................................................. ...............................snipe.............. .................................................. .....


    A source close to the task force told CNN on Monday that Atlas' departure comes as welcome news, as his discredited theories will no longer have a seat at the table. A separate official said the task force remains intact following Atlas' departure.


    Atlas' months-long stint in the White House was marked by controversy as he became a close adviser to Trump on the pandemic, adopting public stances on the virus much closer to the President's -- including decrying the idea that schools cannot reopen this fall as "hysteria" and pushing for the resumption of college sports.




    In one extraordinary episode in October,
    Twitter removed a tweet from Atlas that sought to undermine the importance of face masks because it was in violation of the platform's Covid-19 Misleading Information Policy, according to a spokesman for the company.
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/30/polit...rce/index.html

  28. #358
    Quest For Seven Array title="Mach1 has a reputation beyond repute"> Mach1's Avatar

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread



    Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day

    Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  29. #359
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichola...h=7f22da4e135e

    Highlights: "...he fraud it claims to show in Michigan used precinct listings that were actually in the state of Minnesota..." and "...suit challenging vote counts in Wayne County, Michigan, was filed in a court that had no jurisdiction over the matter..."

    Like I said...absolutely hilarious. This is Sydney Powell's "kraken" unleashed? Did anyone read the lawsuit she filed? Soooooooooo many typos. Like the amount you get when you hammer stuff out drunk on your phone. This is the best and the brightest?

  30. #360
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: 2020 election fraud update thread

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    No, I'm arguing for a small or smallish conspiracy among insiders of a certain political party, which is totally likely and happens frequently. The media is just full of cheerleaders who don't do journalism anymore - it is a performance space.

    Still good money to be made from that - the National Enquirer has been around for nearly 100 years, after all - but there is little credibility left in the traditional media outlets, just a partisan show.

    Again, the media is not part of a "conspiracy," they just have coinciding interests because of the type of people the job attracts these days. The hard-boiled reporter you see in movies is a thing of the past - the standard now is a self-absorbed activist who wants to be heard and wants to show everyone how righteous they are. Lots of bias and lots of groupthink, little credibility left. But they do it all on their own.

    Similarly, I think you will find a lot of like-minded people in the lower ranks of bureaucracy. Not people who are engaged in a conspiracy, but just like in the media, people who will walk away whistling while others are doing the dirty work, because they want the same result. Just coinciding interests.
    OK. But at some point you have to have a core of people that are risking consequences as they engage in a criminal conspiracy. Such a conspiracy could be exposed by the "media" (both traditional and new fangled -- like where are all these serious investigative journalists that have alt-right adult cartoon YouTube channels), law enforcement, outside agencies (Like wouldn't several international actors just love to expose US election fraud? They have high-powered spy agencies and everything), or elements of the conspiracy going rogue and blowing the whistle. What is the shared benefit/motivation that binds the conspirators together? Think about how many people you would need to either be implicitly or explicitly involved in rigging the election across several states. Hundreds? Thousands?

    There is just no way to keep such a thing quiet. Too many people and entities would have ma$$ive motivation$ to blow the lid off of it. Further, there is no direct benefit to the majority of people that would be needed to do the actual crimes required to pull it off. People, both singularly and in groups, rarely risk consequences without direct and immediate benefits.

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