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Thread: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    I still can't believe some jagoff said that the Steelers would have the worst QB in the division. What a joke lol

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    I still can't believe some jagoff said that the Steelers would have the worst QB in the division. What a joke lol
    Mike Tannenbaum = clown



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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by tube517 View Post
    Mike Tannenbaum = clown
    and he was a awful GM too.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better


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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    So Baker Mayfield is 8-3 now. Since wins are a QB statistic, is he considered a good QB at this stage in the season??

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So Baker Mayfield is 8-3 now. Since wins are a QB statistic, is he considered a good QB at this stage in the season??
    Better than some. Depends on how you judge 'good' I would guess.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    The Browns are frauds. They've had a mostly cake easy schedule and they still are getting outscored upon on the year. They just beat the Jaguars (a borderline amateur team) by only 2 points. The wins are good for a fanbase and franchise starved for success but if they don't blow a playoff spot, they'll be one and done

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So Baker Mayfield is 8-3 now. Since wins are a QB statistic, is he considered a good QB at this stage in the season??
    In each situation,the context is always important....Wake me when he going to have at least 10 winning season with very good stats with that....

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    In each situation,the context is always important....Wake me when he going to have at least 10 winning season with very good stats with that....
    So QB wins is only an important stat, when it supports an argument that Ben should be the MVP...and he has 10 winning seasons to support that??

    But Lamar Jackson didnt seem to have 10 winning seasons to support his MVP award last year, just 3000 yards passing and 36-6 TD:INT, plus 1200 yards rushing and 7 rushing TD.

    Seems like a whole lot of cherry picking of stats by people, when its convenient for it supporting "their guy", but the same standards dont apply when talking about opposing players.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    It's really simple. There are two factors: 1) individual stats, and 2) team wins.

    Either of the two combinations will get you into the MVP conversation:

    A. Really good stats and a great winning record
    B. Really great stats and a good winning record


    What will win the MVP are really great stats and a really great winning record (see Patrick Mahomes). In the absence of this, please see A. and B. above.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    So QB wins is only an important stat, when it supports an argument that Ben should be the MVP...and he has 10 winning seasons to support that??

    But Lamar Jackson didnt seem to have 10 winning seasons to support his MVP award last year, just 3000 yards passing and 36-6 TD:INT, plus 1200 yards rushing and 7 rushing TD.

    Seems like a whole lot of cherry picking of stats by people, when its convenient for it supporting "their guy", but the same standards dont apply when talking about opposing players.
    ?????...WTF...My point is that you can't judge a QB on only 1 stat....Lamar Jackson deserved his MVP in 2019 and in 2020,this is Mahomes and this is not close.Don't try to make the steelers fans look bad once again....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    It's really simple. There are two factors: 1) individual stats, and 2) team wins.

    Either of the two combinations will get you into the MVP conversation:

    A. Really good stats and a great winning record
    B. Really great stats and a good winning record


    What will win the MVP are really great stats and a really great winning record (see Patrick Mahomes). In the absence of this, please see A. and B. above.
    It's too complicated for some to understand even if it's very simple

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    It's really simple. There are two factors: 1) individual stats, and 2) team wins.

    Either of the two combinations will get you into the MVP conversation:

    A. Really good stats and a great winning record
    B. Really great stats and a good winning record


    What will win the MVP are really great stats and a really great winning record (see Patrick Mahomes). In the absence of this, please see A. and B. above.
    Now does that apply to the Rookie of the year as well?? Just curious if its only a veteran criteria or not.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Now does that apply to the Rookie of the year as well?? Just curious if its only a veteran criteria or not.
    I realize you’re just being a smart ass but in most cases no because of where a top player is drafted.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I realize you’re just being a smart ass but in most cases no because of where a top player is drafted.
    Not being a smart ass at all. Just wanting to know that if Justin Herbert is having a fantastic rookie season but not winning games, if he gets downgraded for his performance? Or is the lack of winning games blamed more on the team surrounding him?

    But if its not a rookie, the QB can have a great season, but he has to shoulder the blame for the lack of winning games because he has experience?? Its a real interesting criteria with regards to QB and win totals.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Not being a smart ass at all. Just wanting to know that if Justin Herbert is having a fantastic rookie season but not winning games, if he gets downgraded for his performance? Or is the lack of winning games blamed more on the team surrounding him?

    But if its not a rookie, the QB can have a great season, but he has to shoulder the blame for the lack of winning games because he has experience?? Its a real interesting criteria with regards to QB and win totals.
    Did Ben going 13-0 have anything to do with him winning ROY?

  16. #46
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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Not being a smart ass at all. Just wanting to know that if Justin Herbert is having a fantastic rookie season but not winning games, if he gets downgraded for his performance? Or is the lack of winning games blamed more on the team surrounding him?

    But if its not a rookie, the QB can have a great season, but he has to shoulder the blame for the lack of winning games because he has experience?? Its a real interesting criteria with regards to QB and win totals.
    Rookie of the year and MVP is 2 different things...I see in the past a player winning the mvp but not winning the offensive player of the year....The record and the seed is crucial for the MVP voting,same thing for the stats.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Did Ben going 13-0 have anything to do with him winning ROY?
    I dont know. All I can see when I look up the 04 all rookie team is Julius Jones with 800 yards rushing and Kevin Jones with 1100 yards rushing. Not sure who else was in the mix offensively, but Ben's passing TD's far exceed either of those guys rushing TD's, so it would seem Ben's performance was far better than any other rookies in 04.

    So again, please help me understand if Justin Herbert should be getting a pass for being a rookie and therefore his win totals arent important in the ROY. I'm trying to figure out this concept of when team wins are significant for a QB and when they are not. For instance,

    -Baker Mayfield, credit or no for 8-3?
    -Justin Herbert, credit or blame or not for 3-8 record.
    -Ben, credit or not for 10-0?
    -Deshaun Watson, credit or blame for 4-7?

    I think I am hearing Ben gets all credit for 10-0, Mayfield doesnt get credit for 8-3, Herbert gets a pass for 3-7 because he is a rookie, Watson...I dont know.

  18. #48
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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    The win-loss record is a QB stats, but that doesn't mean it's the only stat that matters to judge if the QB is good or not....so many other factor...I don't understand why it's hard to understand.

    Again, rookie of the year and MVP are totally two different things.Murray won the ROTY last year with a 5-10-1 record ... Never a QB will win the MVP with a losing record, even though he has amazing stats like Watson right now, even though that's not his fault if texans are bad.It takes judgment on every situation.

    Mahomes is the MVP right now because of his stats and his team is 10-1

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I dont know. All I can see when I look up the 04 all rookie team is Julius Jones with 800 yards rushing and Kevin Jones with 1100 yards rushing. Not sure who else was in the mix offensively, but Ben's passing TD's far exceed either of those guys rushing TD's, so it would seem Ben's performance was far better than any other rookies in 04.
    1,100 rushing yards are more impressive than 17 TD passes.

    So again, please help me understand if Justin Herbert should be getting a pass for being a rookie and therefore his win totals arent important in the ROY. I'm trying to figure out this concept of when team wins are significant for a QB and when they are not. For instance,

    -Baker Mayfield, credit or no for 8-3?
    -Justin Herbert, credit or blame or not for 3-8 record.
    -Ben, credit or not for 10-0?
    -Deshaun Watson, credit or blame for 4-7?

    I think I am hearing Ben gets all credit for 10-0, Mayfield doesnt get credit for 8-3, Herbert gets a pass for 3-7 because he is a rookie, Watson...I dont know.
    First it's not my job to help you understand something that only common sense can teach you. Secondly, it's about more than stats and/or wins. A person/voter would need to actually watch the person play to see what impact they're having. Stats are a factor and wins are a factor. It really doesn't matter if you agree or not -- it's a reality.

    And of course you were being a smart ass. You just think we're too dumb to know.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    So if it is all about an "eyeball test" for these awards and NOT wins or stats...how the hell does Ben R win an MVP? What has he done that has been any more impressive than any of the other top 15 QBs in the league?

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Herbert is in the lead for ROY because of individual stats, not win totals. 67% completion rate, 3000+ yards, 23TDs, and only 7INTs in 10 games. W/L record is 2-8, not 3-8.

    As for the League MPV vote it is a combination of Individual Stats, Team Stats, W/L Record, and Eye Test.

    I feel this is being turned into a debate only for the sake of debate. So here's an MVP idea. List your top3 candidates for 2020 League MVP. I'll start:

    1. Patrick Mahomes QB KC
    2. Alvin Kamara RB NO
    3. Davante Adams WR GB

    Yes, I went with 3 offensive skill position guys. But with a combination of individual stats, team stats, W/L record, and eye test, these are my top 3 today.



    BTW....Baker Mayfield!!! (Keeping with the thread topic)

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Mahomes, Rodgers, Henry, Ben maybe fifth.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So if it is all about an "eyeball test" for these awards and NOT wins or stats...how the hell does Ben R win an MVP? What has he done that has been any more impressive than any of the other top 15 QBs in the league?
    Who are you directing that to? If it’s me, I’m not sure where the “it’s all about” is coming from. It’s about ALL OF THESE THINGS, not just stats.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So if it is all about an "eyeball test" for these awards and NOT wins or stats...how the hell does Ben R win an MVP? What has he done that has been any more impressive than any of the other top 15 QBs in the league?
    Look at the post 41 and 48 just to know who is my MVP pick right now....

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Who are you directing that to? If it’s me, I’m not sure where the “it’s all about” is coming from. It’s about ALL OF THESE THINGS, not just stats.
    Not you specifically. Just trying to link this discussion to the Ben for MVP discussion. And reading across the two threads...I just can not understand how Ben can be viewed as a serious MVP candidate. Sure his team has one a lot of games, but he has often looked pedestrian doing that save for a key drive per game. And his stats are not good either.

    So he doesn't look like an MVP. He hasn't posted MVP stats. But his team wins a high # of games. That may add up to an awesome season, but I just haven't and still can not wrap my head around the MVP talk.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Not you specifically. Just trying to link this discussion to the Ben for MVP discussion. And reading across the two threads...I just can not understand how Ben can be viewed as a serious MVP candidate. Sure his team has one a lot of games, but he has often looked pedestrian doing that save for a key drive per game. And his stats are not good either.

    So he doesn't look like an MVP. He hasn't posted MVP stats. But his team wins a high # of games. That may add up to an awesome season, but I just haven't and still can not wrap my head around the MVP talk.
    You’re right that this conversation really should be in the Ben MVP thread. I think the consensus of those who were positive towards it was simply that he would be in the conversation if he posted career stats and the team went 16-0. Well, if you google “Big Ben MVP” you’ll discover many articles with him being in the conversation. So that’s already happened. It’s Mahomes award to lose at this point. But to prove a point, if the Chiefs were 6-5 instead of 10-1, it wouldn’t be such a sure thing. And I really don’t think Ben has been mostly pedestrian this year.

  27. #57
    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post

    And of course you were being a smart ass. You just think we're too dumb to know.
    Nope, I am trying to understand your point of view. The best way to do that is to ask questions. Some people just prefer to argue their point of view by not understanding where the people they are talking to are coming from and in those cases you just get 2 sides trying to argue as loud as possible, or discredit the other side.

    Like in the Soapbox forum, I understand your point of view on abortion and it is likely a priority in how you vote. I totally understand and respect that point of view.

    "First seek to understand, then be understood." Steven Covey

  28. #58
    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Herbert is in the lead for ROY because of individual stats, not win totals. 67% completion rate, 3000+ yards, 23TDs, and only 7INTs in 10 games. W/L record is 2-8, not 3-8.

    As for the League MPV vote it is a combination of Individual Stats, Team Stats, W/L Record, and Eye Test.

    I feel this is being turned into a debate only for the sake of debate. So here's an MVP idea. List your top3 candidates for 2020 League MVP. I'll start:

    1. Patrick Mahomes QB KC
    2. Alvin Kamara RB NO
    3. Davante Adams WR GB

    Yes, I went with 3 offensive skill position guys. But with a combination of individual stats, team stats, W/L record, and eye test, these are my top 3 today.



    BTW....Baker Mayfield!!! (Keeping with the thread topic)
    As of Nov 27th the odds at Bodog have

    Mahomes -125
    Wilson +275
    Rodgers +500
    Murray +1100
    Ben +1600

    Now is that more a function of where the money is coming in that moves the odds or what? I dont know. I just see that Rodgers and Wilson are leading 8-3 teams just like Mayfield is leading the Browns at 8-3. There are at least 15 guys ahead of Mayfield in the MVP hunt from an odds standpoint, so maybe team record isnt as important as individual play?

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    As of Nov 27th the odds at Bodog have

    Mahomes -125
    Wilson +275
    Rodgers +500
    Murray +1100
    Ben +1600

    Now is that more a function of where the money is coming in that moves the odds or what? I dont know. I just see that Rodgers and Wilson are leading 8-3 teams just like Mayfield is leading the Browns at 8-3. There are at least 15 guys ahead of Mayfield in the MVP hunt from an odds standpoint, so maybe team record isnt as important as individual play?
    What part of "combination of" is hard to understand? Maybe Mayfield's team is sitting at 8-3 yet individual stats, team stats, and/or eye test aren't meeting the standard for the voters. Ask them why. You're being a bit of a dick with this really. But if you just want to argue, let's go.

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    Re: The Browns Have a Baker Mayfield Problem, and It’s Not Getting Any Better

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    As of Nov 27th the odds at Bodog have

    Mahomes -125
    Wilson +275
    Rodgers +500
    Murray +1100
    Ben +1600

    Now is that more a function of where the money is coming in that moves the odds or what? I dont know. I just see that Rodgers and Wilson are leading 8-3 teams just like Mayfield is leading the Browns at 8-3. There are at least 15 guys ahead of Mayfield in the MVP hunt from an odds standpoint, so maybe team record isnt as important as individual play?
    Stats and team record are both important...I don't understand why it's hard for you to understand

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