The 2-3-4+2 "Base" Defense

[Mojouw]

An interesting perspective and one I was easily talked into from this article: https://steelersdepot.com/2020/08/th...at-it-matters/

There are 2 main points. The first is:
"There are something like 1100-1200 defensive snaps over the course of an NFL season. If we define “starter” as someone who would play more than two thirds of those (800+), you end up with this as the base defense: 2-3-4-plus-2 (a/k/a 4-1-4+2 if you agree with Bud Dupree’s position in the appeal). Two DT’s (Heyward and Tuitt); two edge rushers an an ILB (Watt, Dupree, and Bush); four DB’s (Haden, Nelson, Fitzpatrick, and Edmunds); plus two floating positions that vary according to package. NT, Buck ILB, Safety #3, Slot CB, and CB #4 all get de- or promoted to the status of “package player”, two of which will be on the field at any give time."

And the second is this:
"Finally, this viewpoint clarifies why the team needs to keep focusing on hybrid athletes who can straddle the line between box Safety and Mack ILB, and between Safety #3 and slot CB. Those hybrid players do for a defense what Lamar Jackson does for the Baltimore offense. They allow a seamless transition from one package to a very different one without any telegraphing to the offensive play callers. Disguise and flexibility are the key assets once you have the nine true starters in place."

The bold is mine. But I think this is a pretty solid take on what the Steelers are doing in response to the offensive trends around the league. The one spot in that rotation of "package players" that they really don't seem to have pinned down is the third safety. Perhaps that look they gave a good deal later in the 2019 season with Sutton in the slot and Hilton doing more traditional safety things gets expanded upon? Would be great if they could find someone with some size for that role...

[polamalubeast]

Great article and it's a great thing that steelers have versatility in their defense ... it helps that they're loaded, but it's nice that steelers can invent new things .... The zone blitz no longer works in the current NFL or since the end of the super bowl 45 between the steelers and the packers and I was tired of seeing our pass rusher so often in pass coverage.

This defense could be the best in the NFL or at least top 3 in 2020 even without the insane number of turnovers, especially if they are healthy and have some help from our offense .... I am very excited and I believe this defense is able to contain an offense like Baltimore with Lamar Jackson ... They did a great job in week 5 of 2019 after the first 3 drives.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Its largely based upon what personnel the opposing offense has on the field. If the Ravens run a lot of 12 personnel, then you still likely need 3 down linemen as they can put 7 men on the line and run the ball. But with versatile TE's that can block and are receiving threats like Mark Andrews, then it means that you also need defenders that can run with them in coverage, but be tough enough to stop the run if those players stay in to block.

When the grouping changes to 11 personnel, then you likely need to goto nickel and add that extra DB to matchup with the 3rd WR. I think some fans want to define base defense as what the team runs most often, but the reality is that you look at running a base defense (even or odd front) based upon what down lineman alignment that you plan to run when faced with 21 personnel and then you adapt from there. Steeler base is an odd front.

There have always been categorizations of players like "a 2 down LB" and "every down LB", or linemen as a 2-down run stuffer or a box safety. As the game evolves on offense with more dual threat TE's, more ace backfields and mobile QB's, then you need more of the same type of athletes on the other side of the ball.

[Mojouw]

Absolutely, and that is pretty much precisely what the article said.

Basically take what you used to know about a "traditional" odd front (whatever version of that concept you want to start with) and modify it. DEs and DTs have little distinction anymore, since you are basically playing only 2 down linemen. OLB/DE is blurred into "EDGE" and you have 1 "every down LB". That's your front. It is backed by a traditional 4 man secondary grouping. Now, you start putting in those "matchup athletes" based on what you think the other team is going to do on offense.

Taking that line of thinking (which is the other main point of the article) out to its logical endpoint (and I really hope this doesn't derail the thread but it almost certainly will) you can see why the team did franchise the OLB/DE player and not the "traditional" NT player. Whether one player is better than the other is actually a bit besides the point. One is an every snap component of your defense. The other is a rotational piece.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Absolutely, and that is pretty much precisely what the article said.

Basically take what you used to know about a "traditional" odd front (whatever version of that concept you want to start with) and modify it. DEs and DTs have little distinction anymore, since you are basically playing only 2 down linemen. OLB/DE is blurred into "EDGE" and you have 1 "every down LB". That's your front. It is backed by a traditional 4 man secondary grouping. Now, you start putting in those "matchup athletes" based on what you think the other team is going to do on offense.

Taking that line of thinking (which is the other main point of the article) out to its logical endpoint (and I really hope this doesn't derail the thread but it almost certainly will) you can see why the team did franchise the OLB/DE player and not the "traditional" NT player. Whether one player is better than the other is actually a bit besides the point. One is an every snap component of your defense. The other is a rotational piece.

Yup, gonna derail it right here. Long before the past few years its always said : "You need players to rush the QB, protect the QB, catch passes from the QB and stop passes thrown by the QB". So other than QB the top paid positions are Edge(pass rusher), LT, WR, CB. Its a no brainer that with zero OLB depth the Steelers franchised their mediocre OLB instead of a DT/NT, where they at least had some depth on the D line.

The notion that having a hybrid ILB like Mark Barron or a hybrid S on the field to disguise schemes and alignments from offensive playcallers and QB's, is incorrect. There are always mismatches on the field and always players to read in specific situations. If OC has an RPO called and the TE motions to the flat, the QB reads who moves or stays in the box to determine if he hands off the ball or throws it. He doesnt care if its Edmunds or Watt in coverage, its all about fronts and counts of defenders.

[Mojouw]

Yup, gonna derail it right here. Long before the past few years its always said : "You need players to rush the QB, protect the QB, catch passes from the QB and stop passes thrown by the QB". So other than QB the top paid positions are Edge(pass rusher), LT, WR, CB. Its a no brainer that with zero OLB depth the Steelers franchised their mediocre OLB instead of a DT/NT, where they at least had some depth on the D line.

The notion that having a hybrid ILB like Mark Barron or a hybrid S on the field to disguise schemes and alignments from offensive playcallers and QB's, is incorrect. There are always mismatches on the field and always players to read in specific situations. If OC has an RPO called and the TE motions to the flat, the QB reads who moves or stays in the box to determine if he hands off the ball or throws it. He doesnt care if its Edmunds or Watt in coverage, its all about fronts and counts of defenders.

There have been a ton of general NFL articles and several Steelers specific ones that make compelling arguments that being able to disguise schemes and alignments is critical to high level defensive success. Further, I was just reading somewhere that the 2019 Steelers ability to show one coverage and rotate into another post snap was critical to generating both stops and turnovers. Are you saying that isn't the case? Or are you just saying that it might not shift the play call?

[polamalubeast]

There have been a ton of general NFL articles and several Steelers specific ones that make compelling arguments that being able to disguise schemes and alignments is critical to high level defensive success. Further, I was just reading somewhere that the 2019 Steelers ability to show one coverage and rotate into another post snap was critical to generating both stops and turnovers. Are you saying that isn't the case? Or are you just saying that it might not shift the play call?

Maybe this is the video that you talk?

[Mojouw]

Maybe this is the video that you talk?

If this wasn't the one, it was basically something that made the exact same argument. Thanks for digging this out of the internets!

[polamalubeast]

If this wasn't the one, it was basically something that made the exact same argument. Thanks for digging this out of the internets!

It was another member of this forum(HollywoodSteel), 3 months ago, who found this video!

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...eelers-Defense

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

There have been a ton of general NFL articles and several Steelers specific ones that make compelling arguments that being able to disguise schemes and alignments is critical to high level defensive success. Further, I was just reading somewhere that the 2019 Steelers ability to show one coverage and rotate into another post snap was critical to generating both stops and turnovers. Are you saying that isn't the case? Or are you just saying that it might not shift the play call?

For simplicity sake I will say that its not going to shift the play call.

Are you saying that disguising defensive coverages is something relatively new?

[Mojouw]

For simplicity sake I will say that its not going to shift the play call.

Are you saying that disguising defensive coverages is something relatively new?

No. Not at all. I am saying that I have been reading and listening to things by people who seem to know far more than me for the past couple of years saying that having hybrid LB/S or CB/S players on the field in what used to be called "sub packages" allows teams to show X and then actually be doing Y alot easier against 3+ receiver sets than staying in the base odd and even fronts most of us grew up with.

Your original post seemed to be saying that this didn't matter...I do realize there is not much new under the sun and all that...but the shifts (bad phrasing???) in the geometry and roles in the Steelers 3-4 do seem to be a real response to changes in offensive approaches across the league.

I do agree with the article's premise that in the current version of the Steelers defense there are 9 starters and 4 or 5 guys rotating to fill the remaining 2 spots snap to snap or series to series.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

No. Not at all. I am saying that I have been reading and listening to things by people who seem to know far more than me for the past couple of years saying that having hybrid LB/S or CB/S players on the field in what used to be called "sub packages" allows teams to show X and then actually be doing Y alot easier against 3+ receiver sets than staying in the base odd and even fronts most of us grew up with.

Your original post seemed to be saying that this didn't matter...I do realize there is not much new under the sun and all that...but the shifts (bad phrasing???) in the geometry and roles in the Steelers 3-4 do seem to be a real response to changes in offensive approaches across the league.

I do agree with the article's premise that in the current version of the Steelers defense there are 9 starters and 4 or 5 guys rotating to fill the remaining 2 spots snap to snap or series to series.

I think its a lot of bloggers looking for something to type about.

We can think back to Safeties like Mike Logan and Tyrone Carter that the Steelers liked to put in the slot for coverage purposes. Carnell Lake was a OLB at UCLA, who converted to Safety and CB in the NFL, who also had versatile skillset. IMO, its nothing new, but the evolution of using "move TE" in addition to 3 WR sets has necessitated the more athletic ILB's like Deion Jones, Darius Leonard, Devin Bush, etc. who can run sideline to sideline and also cover.

I'm saying that when a play is called, the QB should have done film study and understands his reads and options depending on where the defense lines up. If somebody shows cover 2 and then brings a Safety into the box on the snap and runs cover 3, then they still have their reads and I dont think it matters too much if that safety coming down is Mike Logan or Terrell Edmunds.

[polamalubeast]

It is not only the defense who do their film study, the defense also does that!

So the defenses often give opposing QB different looks too....Or at least they need to do that....It may not be possible to do that in every play, so of course talent is also important and our defense is loaded in talent(for the starters).

[Mojouw]

I think its a lot of bloggers looking for something to type about.

We can think back to Safeties like Mike Logan and Tyrone Carter that the Steelers liked to put in the slot for coverage purposes. Carnell Lake was a OLB at UCLA, who converted to Safety and CB in the NFL, who also had versatile skillset. IMO, its nothing new, but the evolution of using "move TE" in addition to 3 WR sets has necessitated the more athletic ILB's like Deion Jones, Darius Leonard, Devin Bush, etc. who can run sideline to sideline and also cover.

I'm saying that when a play is called, the QB should have done film study and understands his reads and options depending on where the defense lines up. If somebody shows cover 2 and then brings a Safety into the box on the snap and runs cover 3, then they still have their reads and I dont think it matters too much if that safety coming down is Mike Logan or Terrell Edmunds.

Sure. But it certainly matters if VW is trying to carry a TE down the seam or if Edmunds is doing it.

[Born2Steel]

I think you guys are saying the same thing just from different positions. The defenses job is not to create a mismatch, that has always been the job of the offense, EGJ is correct in that it doesn't matter which jersey number is doing the coverage the offense knows it's blocks, reads, and checkdowns.

What I'm reading from MojoUW is from a presnap 'tell' point of view. Since the main job of the defense is to create chaos for the offense, hybrid players that can jump seamlessly from box to coverage or call the position as you will, is designed to confuse, from blocking assignments to routes to RPO reads, and basically kill the play.

The concepts aren't new but the way the Steelers are employing them(to some extent) are.

As for the Dupree over Hargrave decision it was an easy choice in my opinion. As much as I hated to see Hargrave leave, keeping Bud was the wiser choice for today and the immediate defense. I think Bud walks after this season into a big payday with another team so it's a short-term move, I agree. But Hargrave wasn't breaking into the starting lineup anytime soon anyway barring injury.

[polamalubeast]

Another article for him,this time,this is a video...

Watch: Steelers Key Coverage Concepts

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/08/wa...rage-concepts/

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Sure. But it certainly matters if VW is trying to carry a TE down the seam or if Edmunds is doing it.

Just as it matters if Edmunds is trying to take on an O lineman with Nick Chubb running the ball behind him, or VW is doing it.

All part of the game. Its been going on for decades like that.

[Mojouw]

Just as it matters if Edmunds is trying to take on an O lineman with Nick Chubb running the ball behind him, or VW is doing it.

All part of the game. Its been going on for decades like that.

Sure and playing your NT less than a third of the defensive snaps is a relatively recent adjustment to how the 3-4 front chooses to "attack" offenses.

Combine that with the Steelers seemingly never ending quest to find a LB/S hybrid that can take on an OL to get to the RB AND turn and run with a receiver would seem to indicate that the team would like to roll at a defensive package where looking at jersey #s doesn't automatically allow the offense to determine the defensive approach. Hence their 3 safety, dimebacker, Seminole, and big nickel and whatever else they've called it for like 4 off seasons now.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I think you guys are saying the same thing just from different positions. The defenses job is not to create a mismatch, that has always been the job of the offense, EGJ is correct in that it doesn't matter which jersey number is doing the coverage the offense knows it's blocks, reads, and checkdowns.

What I'm reading from MojoUW is from a presnap 'tell' point of view. Since the main job of the defense is to create chaos for the offense, hybrid players that can jump seamlessly from box to coverage or call the position as you will, is designed to confuse, from blocking assignments to routes to RPO reads, and basically kill the play.

.

Agreed, the QB isnt reading the jersey number and evaluating the abilities of the defenders in the defense. He is looking at the counts and alignment of players in the areas of the field that he has plays called for.

Below is a bit of film breakdown from a coach on what QB's read on RPO's. It may give some a bit of insight into the mindset of the QB and OC on what they are thinking against what they see in the defense.

[Mojouw]

Agreed, the QB isnt reading the jersey number and evaluating the abilities of the defenders in the defense. He is looking at the counts and alignment of players in the areas of the field that he has plays called for.

Below is a bit of film breakdown from a coach on what QB's read on RPO's. It may give some a bit of insight into the mindset of the QB and OC on what they are thinking against what they see in the defense.

Thanks for posting that. I admit, I'm coming into this discussion at a significant deficit having never played or coached. But my thought, which could be wrong, is that it seems offenses have moved out of obvious run and pass packages. Perhaps hybrid defensive players are part of an answer to that.

[Mojouw]

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/08/st...-in-lb-drills/

“We rotated a lot of secondary guys down to running backs versus linebacker like competition because particularly the safety position is linebacker like,” Tomlin said after practice.

Pittsburgh may wind up playing more dime defense than the 16% usage they showed a year ago now that Mark Barron is gone. It’s the most logical workaround to not playing Vince Williams 700+ snaps this season.