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Thread: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    https://www.investopedia.com/article...akes-money.asp

    https://www.cnbc.com/2014/09/04/how-...pro-sport.html

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeoza.../#22f0d9ae691a (looks like ticket sales are about 35% of the Steelers revenue)

    Ticket sales and merchandising are a small portion of team revenues. It is all about the TV money.

    Using all the above, we paid less than half of Dupree's salary. Unless you count the TV money. Easiest thing is to stop watching, buying merchandise, and consuming NFL content. Then they can' t misuse your money.

    2021 will be telling. Because I strongly believe Highsmith will be the defacto starter at that point. Dupree will be elsewhere. Be a solid test case for "random OLB" and performance levels.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Why would the TV money not count? A billion or more comes from Sunday Ticket, which is a direct transfer from the fans. The rest of the TV revenue is funded by advertising, the cost of which is included in the price of goods and services sold to the consumer (who should, if they are doing it right, be highly likely to be an NFL fan). The fans are the source of almost all of it in the end; it is not as if money just materializes from nowhere to keep football going for our benefit.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Why would the TV money not count? A billion or more comes from Sunday Ticket, which is a direct transfer from the fans. The rest of the TV revenue is funded by advertising, the cost of which is included in the price of goods and services sold to the consumer (who should, if they are doing it right, be highly likely to be an NFL fan). The fans are the source of almost all of it in the end; it is not as if money just materializes from nowhere to keep football going for our benefit.
    Ok. That is true. I guess I personalized it too much. I don't buy Sunday Ticket. Nor do I purchase barely any of the brands and services advertised during the games. In that sense, I participate in the NFL for basically free. I also own about 2 pieces of NFL merchandise that I got as gifts.

    Basically, I have zero financial stake in the NFL. I guess I should remember that individual mileage may vary.

    Either way a willing transfer of your/our money to the NFL doesn't really buy you or I any say so...except to STOP spending money on it.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Ok. That is true. I guess I personalized it too much. I don't buy Sunday Ticket. Nor do I purchase barely any of the brands and services advertised during the games. In that sense, I participate in the NFL for basically free. I also own about 2 pieces of NFL merchandise that I got as gifts.

    Basically, I have zero financial stake in the NFL. I guess I should remember that individual mileage may vary.

    Either way a willing transfer of your/our money to the NFL doesn't really buy you or I any say so...except to STOP spending money on it.

    That may be true - but you can be a fan of the team for free, and still have a vested interest in what is going to help them win and what isn't. You can't control it any more than the guy who spent $10,000 on season tickets can. But for both of those people, it is the point of being a fan in the first place.

    (In other words, I admit that fans have no control and are rarely in a position to "demand" anything, but since contracts and team finances are a part of winning, they've got every reason to be happy or frustrated with them.)
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    That may be true - but you can be a fan of the team for free, and still have a vested interest in what is going to help them win and what isn't. You can't control it any more than the guy who spent $10,000 on season tickets can. But for both of those people, it is the point of being a fan in the first place.

    (In other words, I admit that fans have no control and are rarely in a position to "demand" anything, but since contracts and team finances are a part of winning, they've got every reason to be happy or frustrated with them.)
    I kinda figure the finances are all funny numbers anyways and smart teams don't really need to worry about it. I read that prior to the Mahomes and Clark extensions, the Chiefs had $147.00 dollars in cap space for the 2020 season. Yet they were able to get mega-deals done with their star players.

    For me, the Steelers biggest financial roadblock is not what they pay a given player, but how they structure the deal. I really hope they start getting a bit more creative and adopting some of the clever mechanisms that other franchises are using.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I kinda figure the finances are all funny numbers anyways and smart teams don't really need to worry about it. I read that prior to the Mahomes and Clark extensions, the Chiefs had $147.00 dollars in cap space for the 2020 season. Yet they were able to get mega-deals done with their star players.

    For me, the Steelers biggest financial roadblock is not what they pay a given player, but how they structure the deal. I really hope they start getting a bit more creative and adopting some of the clever mechanisms that other franchises are using.
    Those are both probably true, with the exception that the franchise tag is immovable and there is nothing clever you can do with it.

    In general, I don't know whether we are failing to take advantage of clever cap tricks, or that we have simply been carrying so much restructure money from year to year that we can't - that IS our trick. It does seem like in the last couple of years especially, other teams have started to use new schemes with complicated provisions that we have not been ... as well as old schemes that I thought were banned (voidable years, for one).

    Ultimately, it comes down to whether your finances prevent you from keeping your best players, and while I don't see it as a big crisis if Bud Dupree gets an extra $2 million for one year, it doesn't help either and I'm not rooting for it.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    Those are both probably true, with the exception that the franchise tag is immovable and there is nothing clever you can do with it.

    In general, I don't know whether we are failing to take advantage of clever cap tricks, or that we have simply been carrying so much restructure money from year to year that we can't - that IS our trick. It does seem like in the last couple of years especially, other teams have started to use new schemes with complicated provisions that we have not been ... as well as old schemes that I thought were banned (voidable years, for one).

    Ultimately, it comes down to whether your finances prevent you from keeping your best players, and while I don't see it as a big crisis if Bud Dupree gets an extra $2 million for one year, it doesn't help either and I'm not rooting for it.
    I figure the biggest change Dupree made to the 2020 roster by playing on the tag or the tag+2 is that Ramon Foster retired. They likely try and figure out one more rodeo with Foster if Dupree was about 9 million cheaper. MAYBE they have the Heyward extension worked out, but he isn't going anywhere so no big deal.

    That all gets balanced out by the fact that they likely would've reached for a pass rusher in the second round rather than let Highsmith fall to them in the 3rd if Dupree wasn't on the roster.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I figure the biggest change Dupree made to the 2020 roster by playing on the tag or the tag+2 is that Ramon Foster retired. They likely try and figure out one more rodeo with Foster if Dupree was about 9 million cheaper. MAYBE they have the Heyward extension worked out, but he isn't going anywhere so no big deal.

    That all gets balanced out by the fact that they likely would've reached for a pass rusher in the second round rather than let Highsmith fall to them in the 3rd if Dupree wasn't on the roster.
    I think the biggest difference it made was that we lost Hargrave. Maybe he would have been gone anyway, but this guaranteed we couldn't even make a run at him.

    What would really suck is if we end up with neither after this year. Then it really didn't work out.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I think the biggest difference it made was that we lost Hargrave. Maybe he would have been gone anyway, but this guaranteed we couldn't even make a run at him.

    What would really suck is if we end up with neither after this year. Then it really didn't work out.
    I just don' think there was ever a way Hargrave stuck around and played another year or years of low snap counts. I should have been clearer about that, but I think the two are not connected.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I just don' think there was ever a way Hargrave stuck around and played another year or years of low snap counts. I should have been clearer about that, but I think the two are not connected.
    I think the 2 could be connected in the way that only one or the other was going to get re-signed. Dupree makes much more sense just based on snap count alone. Maybe Hargrave is a better overall talent at his position but then which position was more important to lock down? I think Dupree is the right choice in THIS situation. And it’s not really that close.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I think the 2 could be connected in the way that only one or the other was going to get re-signed. Dupree makes much more sense just based on snap count alone. Maybe Hargrave is a better overall talent at his position but then which position was more important to lock down? I think Dupree is the right choice in THIS situation. And it’s not really that close.
    I'd buy that entirely. I guess I just made a totally unfounded assumption that Hargrave wouldn't have wanted to stay and play less than a third of the snaps even for a truck full of money.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I'd buy that entirely. I guess I just made a totally unfounded assumption that Hargrave wouldn't have wanted to stay and play less than a third of the snaps even for a truck full of money.
    A little column ‘A’ and a little column ‘B’?

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I just don' think there was ever a way Hargrave stuck around and played another year or years of low snap counts. I should have been clearer about that, but I think the two are not connected.
    You are right about that part, Hargrave was too good to be a part-timer. Ideally, we would have signed him and also gotten him on the field more - he was certainly good enough for an every-down role.

    It would have been very difficult to try to keep them both; we pretty much had to decide one or the other. Personally, Iiked Hargrave's long-term outlook better. What would really, really suck - and looks like it has a decent chance of happening - is Dupree turning in a bad performance that makes him either not worth the price (someone will still overpay), or a good performance that makes him simply unaffordable. There is a narrow range where it works out for everyone, but I would guess that's less than 50 percent. If that happens, that's a huge price to pay for an extra evaluation year on a guy who wasn't going to stay around either.

    In those terms, if the contract situations were reversed, I suppose that means the safer move would still be using the money on whoever you could get long-term.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    You are right about that part, Hargrave was too good to be a part-timer. Ideally, we would have signed him and also gotten him on the field more - he was certainly good enough for an every-down role.

    It would have been very difficult to try to keep them both; we pretty much had to decide one or the other. Personally, Iiked Hargrave's long-term outlook better. What would really, really suck - and looks like it has a decent chance of happening - is Dupree turning in a bad performance that makes him either not worth the price (someone will still overpay), or a good performance that makes him simply unaffordable. There is a narrow range where it works out for everyone, but I would guess that's less than 50 percent. If that happens, that's a huge price to pay for an extra evaluation year on a guy who wasn't going to stay around either.

    In those terms, if the contract situations were reversed, I suppose that means the safer move would still be using the money on whoever you could get long-term.
    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...-analysis-2019

    League wide, teams were in base about 25% of the time. Steelers were a bit higher at around 29%.

    Unless they wanted to change that, Hargrave was a luxury. He was the third DE on a team that plays 2.

    I think Hargrave will have a better career and Dupree will be gone in 2021 no matter what. All of that matters a bit less IF Highsmith is any good. I have doubts, but everyone swears he is going to be a big deal.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    https://www.footballoutsiders.com/st...-analysis-2019

    League wide, teams were in base about 25% of the time. Steelers were a bit higher at around 29%.

    Unless they wanted to change that, Hargrave was a luxury. He was the third DE on a team that plays 2.

    I think Hargrave will have a better career and Dupree will be gone in 2021 no matter what. All of that matters a bit less IF Highsmith is any good. I have doubts, but everyone swears he is going to be a big deal.
    That's what they would have had to do. If they're playing a nickel most of the time, use more 3-3-5 and less 2-4-5. Basically swapping Hargrave in for Vince Williams. For whatever reason, I guess they decided they weren't doing that. In any case, it's decided.

    Everything else being equal, I would have rather had 5 years of Hargrave than a one-year rental of Dupree, and same if it was reversed.

    Originally, I had thought the tag was a reasonable move given the situation, but in hindsight, maybe not as much.

    I don't expect the same situation would come up very often, though. It's not all the time you have two players of such similar value to the team come up for FA in a direct either/or choice.
    See you Space Cowboy ...

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    IF...Highsmith and Buggs develop this is a non-issue. Heyward, Tuitt, Watt, and Highsmith, with Buggs filling in as NT in those 29%. I’m staying hopeful of that until proven otherwise.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    IF...Highsmith and Buggs develop this is a non-issue. Heyward, Tuitt, Watt, and Highsmith, with Buggs filling in as NT in those 29%. I’m staying hopeful of that until proven otherwise.
    I think Alualu gets the first crack at NT. Buggs slotes in as the jack of all trades.

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think Alualu gets the first crack at NT. Buggs slotes in as the jack of all trades.

    I could be wrong , but I believe that's been stated by Coach T as the plan ... so until someone proves better suited I expect it to go that way too
    Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now

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    Re: Bud Dupree Files Grievance With NFLPA Over Franchise Tag

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    I think Alualu gets the first crack at NT. Buggs slotes in as the jack of all trades.
    ... and most likely Chris Wormley is higher on the depth chart than Buggs. Wormley is listed as a NT, but his build really lends itself to a DE.

    DE's- Heyward, Tuitt, Wormley, Buggs.
    NT- AluAlu and McCullers vs Carlos Davis for the final spot.

    OLB- Watt, Dupree starters, with Highsmith, Olaqwerty and Tuzar Skipper battling James Lockhart for the final OLB spot.

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