DT Signing?

[Mojouw]

The more information that comes out about Wormley, the more it sounds like he is more Tyson Alualu than a NT. So if he is a run stuffing DE and Buggs is the next pass rushing DE (who knows, but say that's the best case) and Hargrave off the roster -- then Big Dan McCullers is still the only "real" NT on the roster.

I took a look at some cap space information early today and it seems they may (numbers vary) have $6-8 million in space with a Heyward extension possible to carve out a bit more.

Take all that together, and I wonder if they sign anyone off this list: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-age...ensive-tackle/

Rumors are that the Cowboys are close to inking Dontari Poe to a deal. If he is the first domino to fall in the next tier of FA DT's to fall, maybe Colbert makes a move after the Cowboys and Poe set the market?

BTW - Shelby Harris would be hilarious. Helped kick off the entire AB losses his darn mind sequence...

[BlackAndGold]

It's looking like Alualu may be taking those snaps at NT when the Steelers use the 3-4 defense, which is what? 20% of the snaps?

Wormley and Buggs will back up Heyward and Tuitt.

[teegre]

Even before Tuitt went down, we mostly used a 2-5. As I said in the Hargrave thread... he would have been regulated to the bench (not worth $13 million for a guy not getting snaps).

Often, Heyward slides over to NT. I see that happening or Biggs playing some NT.

[Born2Steel]

Probably not a FA signing for a true NT. Steelers usually go into the season with 6 DL. That in mind we have Heyward and Tuitt, Alualu and Buggs backing them up, and Big Dan as the immovable object in the middle when we use a 3 man DL. Since a 3 man front is rarely used by last season's standard, I would think a draft pick is much more likely than a FA. Where does Mondeaux line up? He was having a decent year last year. That would make 7 I think with Wormley.

[steelreserve]

I don't think we really use or need a "true" NT, as in the big fat-guy NT, nor have we for many years.

Even Casey Hampton's main value was not that he was a big fat guy who clogged up the middle - it was that he was disruptive and hard to block, and also happened to be a big fat guy. He was useful for the same reason as Heyward or Tuitt, just happened to be bigger.

Similarly, Hargrave's main value was also that he was disruptive and hard to block, while being somewhat less of a big fat guy. He was kind of miscast as a "Nose Tackle" with a capital N and a capital T, to be honest. And that's not necessarily what we need, either. We just need three good defensive linemen, and the only real requirement size-wise or positionally is that they are all a bit beefier than the type of 280-pound guy who you'd find playing DE in a 4-3. Heyward, Tuitt, Kiesel, Aaron Smith ... all of those guys can (and sometimes did) play as DTs, and that is probably what we are looking for.

[teegre]

I don't think we really use or need a "true" NT, as in the big fat-guy NT, nor have we for many years.

Even Casey Hampton's main value was not that he was a big fat guy who clogged up the middle - it was that he was disruptive and hard to block, and also happened to be a big fat guy. He was useful for the same reason as Heyward or Tuitt, just happened to be bigger.

Similarly, Hargrave's main value was also that he was disruptive and hard to block, while being somewhat less of a big fat guy. He was kind of miscast as a "Nose Tackle" with a capital N and a capital T, to be honest. And that's not necessarily what we need, either. We just need three good defensive linemen, and the only real requirement size-wise or positionally is that they are all a bit beefier than the type of 280-pound guy who you'd find playing DE in a 4-3. Heyward, Tuitt, Kiesel, Aaron Smith ... all of those guys can (and sometimes did) play as DTs, and that is probably what we are looking for.

Bingo!!!

For the 10-12 snaps per game when we actually play three D-linemen, one of them can slide over to “NT”. Give me Ray Seals, Brett Keisel, and Aaron Smith... and I’d never play a NT in the lineup. As in, give me Heyward, Tuitt, and Wormley/Alualu/Buggs... and I’d never need a true “NT”.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

I don't think we really use or need a "true" NT, as in the big fat-guy NT, nor have we for many years.

Even Casey Hampton's main value was not that he was a big fat guy who clogged up the middle - it was that he was disruptive and hard to block, and also happened to be a big fat guy. He was useful for the same reason as Heyward or Tuitt, just happened to be bigger.

Similarly, Hargrave's main value was also that he was disruptive and hard to block, while being somewhat less of a big fat guy. He was kind of miscast as a "Nose Tackle" with a capital N and a capital T, to be honest. And that's not necessarily what we need, either. We just need three good defensive linemen, and the only real requirement size-wise or positionally is that they are all a bit beefier than the type of 280-pound guy who you'd find playing DE in a 4-3. Heyward, Tuitt, Kiesel, Aaron Smith ... all of those guys can (and sometimes did) play as DTs, and that is probably what we are looking for.

Hampton was used as a 2-gap NT in that 3-4 defense. Which means that he has to be responsible for both gaps on either side of the opposing Center. He wasn't a guy that was asked to get upfield to the QB, but rather control 2 gaps and draw double teams so that opposing offenses could not send a Guard to block an ILB in the running game.

Hargrave was used as more of a 1-gap DT in Butlers scheme and I believe the premise if for him to get upfield to disrupt things in the backfield, while the weakside ILB has the other A gap. The downside of that is that getting a 300-320 lb guard on your 230-240 lb ILB is pretty much a loss in the run game, so its more important that your weakside DE maintains his A gap, but can read and react well enough to get to the weakside A-gap where the ILB is outmatched.

Hampton and Hargrave were asked to do different things and had different skillsets. In this current defensive scheme, I still think you need a NT that can control the LOS, so a kid like Gallimore or Davon Hamilton I think should be on the radar on draft day.

[steelreserve]

Bingo!!!

For the 10-12 snaps per game when we actually play three D-linemen, one of them can slide over to “NT”. Give me Ray Seals, Brett Keisel, and Aaron Smith... and I’d never play a NT in the lineup. As in, give me Heyward, Tuitt, and Wormley/Alualu/Buggs... and I’d never need a true “NT”.

That is how we operate ... now, you could debate whether, if your third DL player is a stud like Hargrave, you are better off using him in your main packages, essentially a 3-3-5 instead of a 2-4-5, which is not too unusual. I personally think that gives you a more balanced defense, and is the way to go if it gets your best players on the field. But, if your third DL is just ok, then probably not.

Side point: This also relates to why the Steve McLendon Is Just Fine debate was so lame. Typically some riff on "But he grades out really well against the run! He's fine at nose tackle, the stats say so right here!" Except that is not what we actually want from a nose tackle. We want disruption of any type, not steady plain-Jane play. The reason why our DL play was noticeably uninspired when he was at the center of it.

[Mojouw]

Hampton was used as a 2-gap NT in that 3-4 defense. Which means that he has to be responsible for both gaps on either side of the opposing Center. He wasn't a guy that was asked to get upfield to the QB, but rather control 2 gaps and draw double teams so that opposing offenses could not send a Guard to block an ILB in the running game.

Hargrave was used as more of a 1-gap DT in Butlers scheme and I believe the premise if for him to get upfield to disrupt things in the backfield, while the weakside ILB has the other A gap. The downside of that is that getting a 300-320 lb guard on your 230-240 lb ILB is pretty much a loss in the run game, so its more important that your weakside DE maintains his A gap, but can read and react well enough to get to the weakside A-gap where the ILB is outmatched.

Hampton and Hargrave were asked to do different things and had different skillsets. In this current defensive scheme, I still think you need a NT that can control the LOS, so a kid like Gallimore or Davon Hamilton I think should be on the radar on draft day.

I agree. And with their recent history of "double dips" at clear roster holes (Barron and Bush, Edmunds and Burnett, Moncrief and Johnson, Nelson and Layne); I still think that if the DT market trends down into Colbert's price range, they are going to try and sign a guy.

My new "conspiracy theory" is that with the announcement today of no more NFL physicals for an indefinite period of time, take a run at a guy coming off injury. Get a higher ceiling player on the cheap because you are willing to assume the risk that they aren't fully healthy. Just a thought.

[steelreserve]

Hampton was used as a 2-gap NT in that 3-4 defense. Which means that he has to be responsible for both gaps on either side of the opposing Center. He wasn't a guy that was asked to get upfield to the QB, but rather control 2 gaps and draw double teams so that opposing offenses could not send a Guard to block an ILB in the running game.

Hargrave was used as more of a 1-gap DT in Butlers scheme and I believe the premise if for him to get upfield to disrupt things in the backfield, while the weakside ILB has the other A gap. The downside of that is that getting a 300-320 lb guard on your 230-240 lb ILB is pretty much a loss in the run game, so its more important that your weakside DE maintains his A gap, but can read and react well enough to get to the weakside A-gap where the ILB is outmatched.

Hampton and Hargrave were asked to do different things and had different skillsets. In this current defensive scheme, I still think you need a NT that can control the LOS, so a kid like Gallimore or Davon Hamilton I think should be on the radar on draft day.

Well yeah, Hampton and Hargrave were different players who were good at what they did for different reasons, but the bottom line is that they were effective because they caused disruption. Hampton because it was like trying to block a bull, Hargrave because he had ways of getting past you. Either way, the result being that there was chaos is the backfield, and whoever had the ball had to improvise because there were large men pushing and shoving each other in the place where he'd planned on being. You have broken it down with a much more in-depth understanding than I could, but I think we mean roughly the same thing.

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and an impact player of either type can help ... it seems much more likely to me, though, that we could find an impact player in Hargrave's mold. The big line-dominating ones are few and far between, and it seems like a lot of them flame out early with knee problems.

[Mojouw]

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/03/re...-cavon-walker/

Don't know if this counts. His agent claims he plaid at 290 in the XFL. It looks like he played at 275-280 in college. So another DT/DE 'tweener?

Apparently, at least according to the stats, he abused XFL offensive linemen. Of course, what does that even mean?

[Born2Steel]

https://steelersdepot.com/2020/03/re...-cavon-walker/

Don't know if this counts. His agent claims he plaid at 290 in the XFL. It looks like he played at 275-280 in college. So another DT/DE 'tweener?

Apparently, at least according to the stats, he abused XFL offensive linemen. Of course, what does that even mean?

I guess in the right situation he can be successful. That's not the most coherent article I've read but I believe he says Walker was drafted by the Bears, then waived? Picked up by the Chiefs in 2019 and played 4 preseason games, then waived? Obviously it's a wait and see signing but looks initially like a camp body signing.

[Six Rings]

​Here the thing. Whoever plays NT/DT has to be able to hold his own vs. the run, or else we will be run on. Hargrave was adequate in this department. At times he was a liability vs. the run. If the next man up isn't as good, the run defense is going to take a step backward.


Our ILB's aren't Levon Kirkland types, capable of shedding blocks and making plays. Bush is a smaller middle linebacker who needs a NT/DT to keep blockers off so he can use his range and speed to make plays. If Bush has an OL man in his face, he's not winning that battle. So the problem can be compounded if the Steelers don't start a decent run stopping DT/NT.

Who do we have?


Buggs developed very slowly as a rookie. Alualu is best at reserve end. I'm not sure if Alualu is built to play NT. Big Dan offers little value beyond being hard to move in short-yardage situations. As NT/DT these three players are backups...but someone is going to have to get a lot of snaps at NT/DT with the first unit. The second-round pick could go be spent on a NT/DT.


Davon Hamilton ( OSU ) would be an excellent pick for the Steelers in round two as he can play both 1 and 2 gap, and has the movement skills to make plays outside of his gap.


https://www.nfl.com/prospects/davon-...c-f6d40bb66091

[Dwinsgames]

with as much 2-5-4 they played in 2019 perhaps we are over analyzing this , I mean we had one of the leagues best defenses with a NT not on the field the majority of the defensive snaps and perhaps that is the plan moving forward and if so a mixture of Buggs, AluAlu and Big Dan could suffice ...

I cite this from a piece posted over at behind the steel curtain ..... The Steelers defense was on the field for 1084 snaps in 2019, and all their DL players combined for 2469 snaps, an average of 2.28 lineman per snap. That’s a vast majority of plays with fewer than 3 lineman on the field. if they are ( and likely will be ) interested in continuing that theme because of its success a NT may not ( and should not ) be high on their wish list come April

[Hawkman]

with as much 2-5-4 they played in 2019 perhaps we are over analyzing this , I mean we had one of the leagues best defenses with a NT not on the field the majority of the defensive snaps and perhaps that is the plan moving forward and if so a mixture of Buggs, AluAlu and Big Dan could suffice ...

I cite this from a piece posted over at behind the steel curtain ..... The Steelers defense was on the field for 1084 snaps in 2019, and all their DL players combined for 2469 snaps, an average of 2.28 lineman per snap. That’s a vast majority of plays with fewer than 3 lineman on the field. if they are ( and likely will be ) interested in continuing that theme because of its success a NT may not ( and should not ) be high on their wish list come April

This is what I was wondering. I’m not good at stats and that’s a nice one. Thanks D. I thought thought the 2-5-4 was pretty effective, when they finally had all the pieces in place.

[pczach]

with as much 2-5-4 they played in 2019 perhaps we are over analyzing this , I mean we had one of the leagues best defenses with a NT not on the field the majority of the defensive snaps and perhaps that is the plan moving forward and if so a mixture of Buggs, AluAlu and Big Dan could suffice ...

I cite this from a piece posted over at behind the steel curtain ..... The Steelers defense was on the field for 1084 snaps in 2019, and all their DL players combined for 2469 snaps, an average of 2.28 lineman per snap. That’s a vast majority of plays with fewer than 3 lineman on the field. if they are ( and likely will be ) interested in continuing that theme because of its success a NT may not ( and should not ) be high on their wish list come April

You may be right. Maybe the team really believes in Buggs, and thinks he can step right into that role Hargrave had. I don't know. I haven't seen enough yet to really know that he can play at that level, or be as disruptive or explosive as Gravedigger was.

For me, getting a guy like Hamilton in the draft gives them a guy with the size to play a traditional 3-4 NT when needed, but also gives them the flexibility to have him playing the same role that Hargrave did. To me, he's that guy. He would be a guy that can go into a rotation to play multiple positions and keep everyone fresh, while the level of play doesn't really drop off. He could also be on the field if they play 3 or 4 DL. That's scheme versatility.

In the end, I think that's what the team has been building towards defensively for years now. Players that are capable of playing multiple positions and multiple techniques within a bigger scheme. I think we saw much of that come together last year. It's not always easy to find guys that are good enough or athletic enough to do everything required, but if you can keep a group of players like that together they are better equipped to overcome injuries with less drop off to backups and it helps keep starters fresh.

[Six Rings]

with as much 2-5-4 they played in 2019 perhaps we are over analyzing this , I mean we had one of the leagues best defenses with a NT not on the field the majority of the defensive snaps and perhaps that is the plan moving forward and if so a mixture of Buggs, AluAlu and Big Dan could suffice ...

I cite this from a piece posted over at behind the steel curtain ..... The Steelers defense was on the field for 1084 snaps in 2019, and all their DL players combined for 2469 snaps, an average of 2.28 lineman per snap. That’s a vast majority of plays with fewer than 3 lineman on the field. if they are ( and likely will be ) interested in continuing that theme because of its success a NT may not ( and should not ) be high on their wish list come April

That's because the Steelers often pay Watt and Dupree was ends on passing downs and neither player is listed as a Defensive Lineman.

A 2-5-4 defense is very weak vs the run. It's better off vs. 3rd and long with blitzing options.

[teegre]

A 2-5-4 defense is very weak vs the run. It's better off vs. 3rd and long with blitzing options.

Yet, still as good as the vaunted Niners defense.

Go to the Hargrave thread. I don’t feel like reposting.

[Dwinsgames]

That's because the Steelers often pay Watt and Dupree was ends on passing downs and neither player is listed as a Defensive Lineman.

A 2-5-4 defense is very weak vs the run. It's better off vs. 3rd and long with blitzing options.

they are linebackers who simply take a few steps forward closer to the lOS ... they do not call them D-Linemen simply because they are not

average NFL D-End is 270 pounds ...Watt is 236 pounds

[Six Rings]

they are linebackers who simply take a few steps forward closer to the lOS ... they do not call them D-Linemen simply because they are not

average NFL D-End is 270 pounds ...Watt is 236 pounds

Watt is listed at 252 pounds. Not sure where you got the 236 pounds from. He's also a plus run defender for his size. The Steelers absolutely play Watt and Dupree as Defensive Ends at times.

Any any rate whatever run defense and pass rusher the Steelers had last year was with Hargrave is gone and the drop off between him and whomever else is on the roster is big gap.

[Dwinsgames]

[Mojouw]

Here is a Steelers related article that goes into some of the stuff behind all this .https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-it-may-impact

I am a big believer in being "flexible" at each position group. I think there is a high level of talent in the DL group. I just would like another player that COULD play the "0 tech" for significant stretches of snaps in a given game if the team wanted to. In my take, it seems that really only Big Dan is suited for that role. Is it necessary? Almost certainly not. But it is a roster "luxury" that would be nice to have. Who knows -- it may still happen. The off-season is far from over.

FWIW, it is kind of like how I see the Steelers WR group. Some talented players for sure. But I would be okay with adding to it. Right now I think it is missing a size/speed prospect. Think Martavis Bryant or Sammie Coates. Then they would have two physical at the catch point types (Washington and Juju), the shifty guy (Johnson), and two size/speed guys (Cain + draft pick).

[Dwinsgames]

Here is a Steelers related article that goes into some of the stuff behind all this .https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-it-may-impact

I am a big believer in being "flexible" at each position group. I think there is a high level of talent in the DL group. I just would like another player that COULD play the "0 tech" for significant stretches of snaps in a given game if the team wanted to. In my take, it seems that really only Big Dan is suited for that role. Is it necessary? Almost certainly not. But it is a roster "luxury" that would be nice to have. Who knows -- it may still happen. The off-season is far from over.

FWIW, it is kind of like how I see the Steelers WR group. Some talented players for sure. But I would be okay with adding to it. Right now I think it is missing a size/speed prospect. Think Martavis Bryant or Sammie Coates. Then they would have two physical at the catch point types (Washington and Juju), the shifty guy (Johnson), and two size/speed guys (Cain + draft pick).

thanks for that but this is the one I was referencing ..some good stuff here

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...agles-nfl-news

[pczach]

Here is a Steelers related article that goes into some of the stuff behind all this .https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...-it-may-impact

I am a big believer in being "flexible" at each position group. I think there is a high level of talent in the DL group. I just would like another player that COULD play the "0 tech" for significant stretches of snaps in a given game if the team wanted to. In my take, it seems that really only Big Dan is suited for that role. Is it necessary? Almost certainly not. But it is a roster "luxury" that would be nice to have. Who knows -- it may still happen. The off-season is far from over.

FWIW, it is kind of like how I see the Steelers WR group. Some talented players for sure. But I would be okay with adding to it. Right now I think it is missing a size/speed prospect. Think Martavis Bryant or Sammie Coates. Then they would have two physical at the catch point types (Washington and Juju), the shifty guy (Johnson), and two size/speed guys (Cain + draft pick).

That's a good article, with a ton of good info. There's a lot of information for anyone that wants to learn different techniques by scheme along the DL.

I was speaking about the position flexibility a couple posts ago, and this is some of what I was talking about. The team has been moving towards this for a while now. We saw some really good results with the new scheme last year now that the defensive roster has been upgraded and the talent is on the field at all three levels.

[Six Rings]

[COLOR=#000000 !important]Dwinsgames ,[/COLOR]That's not correct. Watt is not 236. Just a few links:



Player Dimensions

Height:	76.25 inches
Weight:	252 pounds
BMI:	31.21
Arm Length:	33.13 inches
Hand Size:	11.00 inches

2 more rows



T.J. Watt | LB | Wisconsin - NFL Combine ResultsAnd the official Steelers listing



And the Official Steelers Roster also has Watt at 252

https://www.steelers.com/team/players-roster/



As does Pro Football Focus, who is in the data business

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/tj-watt/11785


And Pro Football Reference https://www.pro-football-reference.c...W/WattT.00.htm


All says 252. The 236 listing for Watt ( Congrats for finding it ) is just fake news.

[Dwinsgames]

[COLOR=#000000 !important]Dwinsgames ,[/COLOR]That's not correct. Watt is not 236. Just a few links:



Player Dimensions

Height:	76.25 inches
Weight:	252 pounds
BMI:	31.21
Arm Length:	33.13 inches
Hand Size:	11.00 inches

2 more rows



T.J. Watt | LB | Wisconsin - NFL Combine ResultsAnd the official Steelers listing



And the Official Steelers Roster also has Watt at 252

https://www.steelers.com/team/players-roster/



As does Pro Football Focus, who is in the data business

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/tj-watt/11785


And Pro Football Reference https://www.pro-football-reference.c...W/WattT.00.htm


All says 252. The 236 listing for Watt ( Congrats for finding it ) is just fake news.

simply type in google TJ Watt weight ... nothing more or less it is result #1

[Six Rings]

simply type in google TJ Watt weight ... nothing more or less it is result #1

I listed four sources, you have just one. I'll take what the Steelers and football websites say over google.

Watt is not 236 pounds. He's 250 give or take a few.

A few more sources:

Wiki says so https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Watt ( 252 )

His listed weight in college also says he's well above 236lbs Players add weight as they age.

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/footbal.../t-j-watt/4043


NFL.com also says 252

http://www.nfl.com/player/t.j.watt/2558064/profile

Without much effort I found seven sources that say 236 is bogus, and some of them are football sources. You have just one source, and its a non football source.

You can make your mind but when I see 7 to 1, with a few of them being primary on the topic its an easy choice to make.


If that isn't enough, check out what you posted below the google link, It also says 252 lbs for Watt. So now it's 8.

https://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh...-year-2-splash

[Dwinsgames]

I listed four sources, you have just one. I'll take what the Steelers and football websites say over google.

Watt is not 236 pounds. He's 250 give or take a few.

A few more sources:

Wiki says so https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Watt ( 252 )

His listed weight in college also says he's well above 236lbs Players add weight as they age.

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/footbal.../t-j-watt/4043


NFL.com also says 252

http://www.nfl.com/player/t.j.watt/2558064/profile

Without much effort I found seven sources that say 236 is bogus, and some of them are football sources. You have just one source, and its a non football source.

You can make your mind but when I see 7 to 1, with a few of them being primary on the topic its an easy choice to make.


If that isn't enough, check out what you posted below the google link, It also says 252 lbs for Watt. So now it's 8.

https://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh...-year-2-splash

still doesn't matter , the point being is he is not a D-lineman and not the size of a D-lineman


For defensive ends, the need for speed and agility to rush the quarterback may mitigate some of the size increase. Ends averaged 283 pounds and 6 feet 4 inches tall, the analysis of 2013 NFL rosters found. But defensive tackles, responsible for shutting down an opponents running game, averaged 6 foot 3 and 310 pounds.



DE-Avg. Height: 75.82 in Avg. Weight: 278.99 lbs

DT-Avg. Height: 75.22 in Avg. Weight: 308.97 lbs

https://webpages.uidaho.edu/~renaes/...%20ht%20wt.pdf

[teegre]

Hargrave is gone and the drop off between him and whomever else is on the roster is big gap.

If anything, going from Hargrave to Tuitt is an upgrade.

[Born2Steel]

For those looking for a true 2 gap zero tech run stuffer on the DL that is exactly what Daniel McCullers is. He is not a push the pocket, shoot the gap, DL like Heyward or Tuitt or really any of the other DL on the roster. McCullers is the true NT on this team.

Daniel McCullers vs Javon Hargrave at NT: Preseason game against the Packers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3rfc-ytHyU