Will the Coming Season be Different Because of COVID-19?

[tom444]

Good for the Italians. The human spirit.

[steelreserve]

More funny pages material.

It must really suck to be that stupid.

Normally, I would just shrug and say "whatever," but now that the neuroses of stupid people like you are beginning to affect real life, it is irritating, to say the least.

[86WARD]

Amazing how "concerned" we are about a virus we have little control over and ignore things we can control with just a proper diet and exercise. I will also say a proper diet and exercise will give your immune system a boost which will help fight colds and flu.

Just think if the coronavirus was killing people every 37 seconds in the US like heart disease, yet no media hype and no threads about this here.


Heart Disease in the United States

• Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.
• One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.
• About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.
• Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

He’s a scum bag.

[tom444]

It must really suck to be that stupid.

You'd know better than anyone.

[steelreserve]

You'd know better than anyone.

Look, whatever, the punchline's coming in about a month, so just keep it up so we can all have a real good laugh. In the meantime, try not to get hit by lightning.

[tom444]

Look, whatever, the punchline's coming in about a month, so just keep it up so we can all have a real good laugh. In the meantime, try not to get hit by lightning.

Keep digging.

[Hawkman]

Of course not, because American society has accepted heart disease as a "normal" way to die. Instead, let's consume ourselves with a flu virus that will vanish like the others on the history list. There is just something wrong when a person dies every 37 seconds in this country over a disease that can be prevented and all you hear is crickets. Instead, we are consumed with a flu virus in which the majority of people that contract it only have mild symptoms and recover. If our society was at their ideal weight, in shape and in good health the flu just might pass over them.

Actually Shoes, I think it’s the other way. We are inundated with information every day, drugs, diets, cardio plans, on TV, internet, Twitter.......people stop paying attention. We are lazy. We want our computers to walk around the block for us.

[vader29]

[tom444]

What, no bullfights?

France and Spain to Follow Italy Into Lockdown as Coronavirus Cases Soar

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.65098)]Emilio Morenatti—AP
[/COLOR]
(BARCELONA, Spain) — France ordered the closing of just about everything the rest of the world loves about it — the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, the cafes, restaurants and cinema — and Spain drew up plans Saturday to lock down its 46 million citizens as governments took increasingly desperate measures to put more space between people and contain the coronavirus.

https://time.com/5803206/france-spai...n-coronavirus/

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3 days without sports. It's a bitch isn't it?

[Mojouw]

There were no quarantines in 2009. Things just carried on as usual, and the result was 99 percent fewer deaths.

As far as movement and interaction, there is far more of that today because of global air travel; the overall population is double or triple; and there are many times more large events. Again, all went on uninterrupted in the 2009 version. Same disease. No quarantines. More interactions. 99 percent fewer dead. Blind luck, I guess?

Or maybe it's that people are generally healthier, conditions are more sanitary, and that 100 years ago they didn't even have the first clue about even controlling the symptoms of basic illnesses.

Nah, it couldn't be that. Commence the panic.

There were multiple quarantines across the infected regions of the globe in 2009. Just because it didn't happen here, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You do realize that the 1918 flu started in the military and Europe and then traveled home with them and rampaged through their home countries? Like taking all the dudes in Europe for WWI and then moving them all over the globe represents a scale of viral host movement equal to or greater than anything taking place in 2009 or 2018. Significant serious research has been done on why the 1918-1919 flu was so bad. There are a small number of competing theories but all of them agree that the major contributing factors to a "normal" version of influenza - meaning one that was no more or less deadly than any other seasonal flu - becoming a global killer was the concentrations of large #'s of people from around the globe into crowded spaces in the European theater of the war and then the subsequent return of those people to their home countries.

Kinda sounds just like "social distancing" and "travel bans" in 2020. Weird. It is like basic science doesn't change just because you are ignorant of it. In 1918-1919 flu, there were two major US cities that reacted differently. One banned gathers and restricted movement and such. Go through it roughed up but okay. The other didn't. Got walloped. I think it was Philadelphia and St. Louis. My point? Excessive panic in response to coronavirus is silly and foolish. No need to stockpile and consider moving to a zombie bunker. But just saying it is not worth planning and reacting to is just as foolish.

It requires a dedicated reaction but not a panicked one. Human beings actually know exactly how to deal with a virus like we have know. We just all need to count to 10, take a deep breath, be patient, and listen to what the people who are experts in this are saying.

Honestly, this information and opportunity to learn is readily available on the internet. But you simply choose to believe you know it all already and refuse to listen or learn. Kinda sad actually.

[86WARD]

There were multiple quarantines across the infected regions of the globe in 2009. Just because it didn't happen here, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

You do realize that the 1918 flu started in the military and Europe and then traveled home with them and rampaged through their home countries? Like taking all the dudes in Europe for WWI and then moving them all over the globe represents a scale of viral host movement equal to or greater than anything taking place in 2009 or 2018. Significant serious research has been done on why the 1918-1919 flu was so bad. There are a small number of competing theories but all of them agree that the major contributing factors to a "normal" version of influenza - meaning one that was no more or less deadly than any other seasonal flu - becoming a global killer was the concentrations of large #'s of people from around the globe into crowded spaces in the European theater of the war and then the subsequent return of those people to their home countries.

Kinda sounds just like "social distancing" and "travel bans" in 2020. Weird. It is like basic science doesn't change just because you are ignorant of it. In 1918-1919 flu, there were two major US cities that reacted differently. One banned gathers and restricted movement and such. Go through it roughed up but okay. The other didn't. Got walloped. I think it was Philadelphia and St. Louis. My point? Excessive panic in response to coronavirus is silly and foolish. No need to stockpile and consider moving to a zombie bunker. But just saying it is not worth planning and reacting to is just as foolish.

It requires a dedicated reaction but not a panicked one. Human beings actually know exactly how to deal with a virus like we have know. We just all need to count to 10, take a deep breath, be patient, and listen to what the people who are experts in this are saying.

Honestly, this information and opportunity to learn is readily available on the internet. But you simply choose to believe you know it all already and refuse to listen or learn. Kinda sad actually.

Problem is people are just plain stupid. For example...there are several “farmers market” type event that occur on weekends and their “idea” of social distancing is to make sure each tented vendor is 6-feet apart. They’ll still hold the events but they are being very “aware” of social distancing...lol. Really? This isn’t just one event, this is the thought behind several of these events...

[silver & black]

Someone posted this on another forum I frequent. Very interesting.

https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54

[Mojouw]

Problem is people are just plain stupid. For example...there are several “farmers market” type event that occur on weekends and their “idea” of social distancing is to make sure each tented vendor is 6-feet apart. They’ll still hold the events but they are being very “aware” of social distancing...lol. Really? This isn’t just one event, this is the thought behind several of these events...

No doubt! And that is where this is all so darn frustrating. If we would all just sit back, take a breath, and actually trust the basic science of all this -- decisions become clear and obvious.

No need to hoard food and water. But there is a need to not go to the farmer's market etc. However, is going to the Farmer's Market all that different from the crush of people I had to navigate in the grocery store the other day?

It is basically this:

[Shoes]

Actually Shoes, I think it’s the other way. We are inundated with information every day, drugs, diets, cardio plans, on TV, internet, Twitter.......people stop paying attention. We are lazy. We want our computers to walk around the block for us.

and we die prematurely.

[Mojouw]

Someone posted this on another forum I frequent. Very interesting.

https://youtu.be/TPpoJGYlW54

That was super interesting. Eye opening as to the reasons that this remains unregulated. In contrast to what I thought. For instance, Ebola and AIDS jumped to humans from "bushmeat" or the the hunted animals that the poorest of the poor eat.

[Mojouw]

Amazing how "concerned" we are about a virus we have little control over and ignore things we can control with just a proper diet and exercise. I will also say a proper diet and exercise will give your immune system a boost which will help fight colds and flu.

Just think if the coronavirus was killing people every 37 seconds in the US like heart disease, yet no media hype and no threads about this here.


Heart Disease in the United States

• Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.
• One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.
• About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.
• Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

I think the issue of control is exactly why the reactions to the two health problems are so different. Heart disease, rightly or wrongly, is viewed as an individual result - often the fault of the person suffering from it. If they would have taken better care of themselves, talked with their doctor, etc. then they would have had a better health outcome. It won't happen to me...because I do all those things and am blah, blah, blah.

In contrast, a virus scares the crap out of people for the total lack of control. You can do everything you are supposed to do to take care of yourself and still get sick. Lack of control terrifies people. Layer that on top of the fact that zombie horror movies don't start out with a rash of heart disease, but they do start out with the appearance of new virus...and we are off and running.


FWIW, I do think we let far too many things just kill our fellow citizens at an alarming rate and just shrug and move on with our days. But that is likely a conversation for another day...

[AtlantaDan]

He is always ahead of the curve

[tom444]

He is always ahead of the curve

Go BB!

[Craic]

As far as viral epidemics in the past generation, the granddaddy of them all was the H1N1 virus with something like 280,000 dead worldwide, or about the number of people that would ordinarily die of other causes in any 8-hour period, over the course of more than a year. That, to me, is not a significant overall public danger, and sure enough, schools stayed open, events went on, and everything was more or less normal. In the US, it was something like 12,000 dead. And that was the biggest viral outbreak in modern history. Yet this is somehow going to be 150 times worse, based on ... ?

The problem is that it is much easier transmitted from person to person and the incubation period is four days where a person is still very contagious but without any symptoms. Those two things are the wildcards here. It means you can having someone infecting hundreds of other people without even knowing their sick. Then, they can infect hundreds of other people without knowing their sick. So on and so forth.

Moreover, kids are germ factories. So, by closing the schools, you're closing what is a most likely case of mass transmission especially as children are really coming down ill with the virus.

So, again, the mass panic is crazy. But, there is a legitimate concern and the experts on the topic are on top of the situation, They're the ones I'll listen to.

- - - Updated - - -

Amazing how "concerned" we are about a virus we have little control over and ignore things we can control with just a proper diet and exercise. I will also say a proper diet and exercise will give your immune system a boost which will help fight colds and flu.

Just think if the coronavirus was killing people every 37 seconds in the US like heart disease, yet no media hype and no threads about this here.


Heart Disease in the United States

• Heart disease is the leading cause of death for men, women, and people of most racial and ethnic groups in the United States.
• One person dies every 37 seconds in the United States from cardiovascular disease.
• About 647,000 Americans die from heart disease each year—that’s 1 in every 4 deaths.
• Heart disease costs the United States about $219 billion each year from 2014 to 2015.3 This includes the cost of health care services, medicines, and lost productivity due to death.

https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

Well, seeing as this virus strikes people with underlying health conditions worse than those with out, and obesity is an underlying health condition, I wonder how that might change.

[Shoes]

The problem is that it is much easier transmitted from person to person and the incubation period is four days where a person is still very contagious but without any symptoms. Those two things are the wildcards here. It means you can having someone infecting hundreds of other people without even knowing their sick. Then, they can infect hundreds of other people without knowing their sick. So on and so forth.

Moreover, kids are germ factories. So, by closing the schools, you're closing what is a most likely case of mass transmission especially as children are really coming down ill with the virus.

So, again, the mass panic is crazy. But, there is a legitimate concern and the experts on the topic are on top of the situation, They're the ones I'll listen to.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, seeing as this virus strikes people with underlying health conditions worse than those with out, and obesity is an underlying health condition, I wonder how that might change.

Great book for everyone to read, even if you are healthy.

https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-C...dp_ob_title_bk

[Mojouw]

Great book for everyone to read, even if you are healthy.

https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-C...dp_ob_title_bk

For some reason this is all I could think of:


https://cdn.britannica.com/31/178731...uglas-Jane.jpg

[Shoes]

For some reason this is all I could think of:


https://cdn.britannica.com/31/178731...uglas-Jane.jpg

[86WARD]

Canada is going to start testing a vaccine. Ironically it was, supposedly, announced about two hours after the NHL season was suspended.

[86WARD]

[tom444]

Steelreserve and a couple of his friends.

[GoSlash27]

Any comparison between COVID-19 and the 1918 Spanish Flu is so ridiculous as to be disingenuous and irresponsible. This is absolutely *nothing* like the Spanish Flu. The Spanish Flu was most deadly to healthy young adults specifically because they had strong immune systems. The virus didn't directly kill the host, but rather triggered a "cytokine storm" where the immune system attacked and killed the host. 1918 Spanish Flu was a freak combination of a virus that the population had no antibodies for and triggered an excessive immune response coupled with a whole helluva lot of young healthy adults all together in the same place. It was the sort of thing that normally burns out immediately because it kills the host faster than it can spread, but in that instance it had an extremely target rich environment.

COVID 19, OTOH, simply damages and clogs the lungs of people with abnormally weak immune systems and is otherwise benign to the general population. IOW, much like the common flu.

I honestly believe that some people genuinely enjoy feeling and spreading panic, and I wish they'd cut it out. It's one thing to make an attempt to safeguard the elderly with weak immune systems, quite another to spread dangerous misinformation. This ain't like 1918 swine flu. It ain't ever gonna be like the 1918 swine flu.

Please stop saying dumb shit. It's not helpful.

[GoSlash27]

On the subject of doing all this to "flatten the curve" to protect the elderly... I must repeat that COVID 19, even if left unchecked, would still not kill as many elderly as the common seasonal flu. And people can say "yeah, but vaccines/ treatments, etc." but that doesn't change the fact that tens to hundreds of thousands of elderly Americans die from seasonal flu annually; people who could've been saved if we had implemented these measures every year.
So this leads to a question I have yet to get an answer for: If all this is worth doing for COVID-19, why is it not worth doing for seasonal flu? I need somebody who thinks all this is worth it to explain this to me.

[AtlantaDan]

On the subject of doing all this to "flatten the curve" to protect the elderly... I must repeat that COVID 19, even if left unchecked, would still not kill as many elderly as the common seasonal flu. And people can say "yeah, but vaccines/ treatments, etc." but that doesn't change the fact that tens to hundreds of thousands of elderly Americans die from seasonal flu annually; people who could've been saved if we had implemented these measures every year.
So this leads to a question I have yet to get an answer for: If all this is worth doing for COVID-19, why is it not worth doing for seasonal flu? I need somebody who thinks all this is worth it to explain this to me.

Given the fairly uniform response of both authoritarian governments such as China and democracies (with the apparent exception of the United Kingdom) to take draconian actions maybe because you can risk model with greater confidence for anticipated illnesses/fatalities for the flu for which a vaccine of variable effectiveness is available each year?

Whereas with no vaccine for COVID-19 along with more uncertainty on its transmission along with fatality rate (the largest data set on this is from China but as is the case with most data provided by the government in China the numbers provided there on COVID-19 are of dubious reliability) there is a lesser degree of confidence in quantifying the statistical likelihood of a catastrophic event and what may be, to put it in cold blooded terms, acceptable illnesses/fatalities in order to avoid more disruption to society

Also may be that there is less slack in the system to provide care for a more uncertain number of those requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 on top of patient beds already taken for anticipated illnesses if drastic actions to minimize the spread of the virus are not taken to avoid crashing the health care system

Obviously pure guesswork by me but I am proceeding on the assumption that experts such as Dr Fauci are not making their recommendations to sow panic and put political points on the board

[GoSlash27]

Given the fairly uniform response of both authoritarian governments such as China and democracies (with the apparent exception of the United Kingdom) to take draconian actions maybe because you can risk model with greater confidence for anticipated illnesses/fatalities for the flu for which a vaccine of variable effectiveness is available each year?

Whereas with no vaccine for COVID-19 along with more uncertainty on its transmission along with fatality rate (the largest data set on this is from China but as is the case with most data provided by the government in China the numbers provided there on COVID-19 are of dubious reliability) there is a lesser degree of confidence in quantifying the statistical likelihood of a catastrophic event and what may be, to put it in cold blooded terms, acceptable illnesses/fatalities in order to avoid more disruption to society

Also may be that there is less slack in the system to provide care for a more uncertain number of those requiring hospitalization for COVID-19 on top of patient beds already taken for anticipated illnesses if drastic actions to minimize the spread of the virus are not taken to avoid crashing the health care system

Obviously pure guesswork by me but I am proceeding on the assumption that experts such as Dr Fauci are not making their recommendations to sow panic and put political points on the board

All of this to say "everybody's doing it, so there must be a good reason" ?
Sorry, but no. We have adequate data to understand the threat and there is absolutely zero chance of this becoming a "catastrophic event". You very briefly bumped up against the actual reason we don't do this for the seasonal flu; it is unsustainable both economically and socially. 65,000 Americans died last year from the seasonal flu. Not only did we not implement these measures which would've saved most of them, we didn't even notice they died.
That was the response; "Sorry grandma, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Life has to go on at some point."
All of that to point out that the argument "this is worth doing to save lives" is fallacious. Everybody knows that the line must be drawn somewhere; that saving lives must be balanced against social and economic upheaval.

So the question becomes why (or even if) this response is reasonable for COVID 19, if it's an overreaction, or even an underreaction.

[AtlantaDan]

All of this to say "everybody's doing it, so there must be a good reason" ?
Sorry, but no. We have adequate data to understand the threat and there is absolutely zero chance of this becoming a "catastrophic event". You very briefly bumped up against the actual reason we don't do this for the seasonal flu; it is unsustainable both economically and socially. 65,000 Americans died last year from the seasonal flu. Not only did we not implement these measures which would've saved most of them, we didn't even notice they died.
That was the response; "Sorry grandma, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Life has to go on at some point."
All of that to point out that the argument "this is worth doing to save lives" is fallacious. Everybody knows that the line must be drawn somewhere; that saving lives must be balanced against social and economic upheaval.

So the question becomes why (or even if) this response is reasonable for COVID 19, if it's an overreaction, or even an underreaction.

So why do you think it is happening

That all of these governments have lost their collective minds?

I confess to having neither the general expertise or access to the data upon which to form a credible opinion as to whether or not the response is appropriate

That lack of self-confidence is a shortcoming of mine that is not shared by other posters