Will the Coming Season be Different Because of COVID-19?

[Mojouw]

In my wife's office, the only check-ups they are doing are newborns to 2 year-olds. All others have been pushed back to late May. ADHD and kids suffering from depression are using telehelp and of course they see kids that have accidents or have been injured. There are very few kids that are sick because they have been homebound and I'm guessing the parents will need some sort of mental healthcare because of that when this is over.

I think we all might need some mental health tweaks soon!

I like hanging out around the house and doing stuff on my own or with my wife. But it does start to repeat...

[Shoes]

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...r-state-s-peak

Actual data if anyone still gives a shit.

Thanks for this.

[Craic]

I think we all might need some mental health tweaks soon!

I like hanging out around the house and doing stuff on my own or with my wife. But it does start to repeat...

And here you call yourself an academic (I mean, aren't we all introverts?). My introverted self is basking in glory! Now, if I can just get the wife to stick to the visiting hours I've set for her, it'd be perfect.

[Mojouw]

And here you call yourself an academic (I mean, aren't we all introverts?). My introverted self is basking in glory! Now, if I can just get the wife to stick to the visiting hours I've set for her, it'd be perfect.

This made my night! Thanks. I better get back into line or they'll kick me out.

[teegre]

Even when Trump is saying "we need to start thinking about how to re-open the country," still all you really hear anyone talking about are the two extremes, full lockdown or nothing at all. That's retarded.

...

There are a few parts to that...

Disagree that there wasn’t an attempt at a middle ground. Where I work, we had a middle ground in place... but, the outside world kept doing stupid shit.

Agree that it’s become a pendulum swing... where only the apexes are bring acknowledged.

Question:
You say you feel sympathy for millions who are out of work due to situations out of their control. How is that different that a CEO laying off 70% of his lower-level work force in order to boost profits? Is there a difference? What’s your opinion of that?

Clarification:
$6,000... is that how much you’ve lost in wages? Not to be mean, but again, I could see you replying to yourself: “Well, steelreserve, looks like I’m sucking dicks to make up for those lost wages.”

A less extreme response is that my brother is out of work, but he has 6 months of “bill money” saved up, just for situations like this. I know that not many can save that much, but again, I could see you saying “Tough luck, assholes.” Yes/no?... and, is that what you’re telling silver&black?

Lastly, I get what you’re saying about personal freedoms. I’ll retort by asking, “Do you reeeally think you have control now?”

Thank you for responding. It wasn’t a tangent at all. It’s exactly what I was trying to figure out.

[steelreserve]

Question:
You say you feel sympathy for millions who are out of work due to situations out of their control. How is that different that a CEO laying off 70% of his lower-level work force in order to boost profits? Is there a difference? What’s your opinion of that?

Now that's a good question, and I am not sure I have the perfect answer to it. Lest I be accused of having a sudden uncharacteristic soft spot for the labor movement and workers' rights - it's worth remembering that at least one interpretation could be that instead of saying, "You can go suck extra dicks for a living," I would be saying the even more callous, "I don't care if you DIE." Although that is not exactly the case either.

While I generally consider myself an unapolagetic capitalist, to use your example: If the CEO suddenly laid off 70% of his workforce, it is not as if I would not still think, "what a dick." Being technically allowed to do something is not mutually exclusive with it being a questionable or underhanded practice, and the good thing is that even in ruthless capitalism, there are often natural consequences for developing a bad reputation. And another big difference is that in that case, there are still options for the people who got laid off to recover, even if they are not all immediately great ones. There are good things and bad things about a free market, but ultimately I tend to believe that the opportunity outweighs the uncertainty on balance, even if it is not that way everywhere at all times.

I guess the real difference here is that it is the result of government removing the free market. It would be like all CEOs everywhere laying off 70% of people and then immediately instituting a general hiring freeze, which would be an impossible situation to occur naturally. And also that the CEOs could somehow lay off every small-business employee and shut down every mom-and-pop store. The managed response has imposed a hardship on people that is far worse than the worst that heartless capitalism could do. I'm like ... can't you see you've become even worse than what you claim to be fighting against?

To use an extreme analogy, it is a bit like the book/movie The Road - if you remove the biosphere, everything dies. Can't even suck dicks for a living, it's not allowed and no one has money to pay you anyway. I look at this situation and see people doing the equivalent of that, while shouting "It's for your own good - I'm HELPING!" Yet, even if you are reduced to sucking dicks for a living - you've still got a choice. Don't know if that makes sense. Maybe.

Clarification:
$6,000... is that how much you’ve lost in wages? Not to be mean, but again, I could see you replying to yourself: “Well, steelreserve, looks like I’m sucking dicks to make up for those lost wages.”

A less extreme response is that my brother is out of work, but he has 6 months of “bill money” saved up, just for situations like this. I know that not many can save that much, but again, I could see you saying “Tough luck, assholes.” Yes/no?... and, is that what you’re telling silver&black?

The $6,000 is simply the $2 trillion aid package (which was only necessary because they created 40% unemployment overnight), divided by 330 million. That money is not free, and the cost is ultimately going to be paid by everyone, either in the form of higher taxes or of printing money (inflation). I am fortunate enough not to have lost my income as of yet - but now imagine if you had, and you were STILL on the hook for the extra $6,000 per person. "But it's for your own good!" But, like I said, that is the most self-interested of all the reasons I don't like this, and not really the main one - it is just worth noting.

I am not sure what the second part of that means - that I would be telling people "tough luck" if they hadn't saved any money, or if they had? In any event, while it is a wise move to save something for emergencies, obviously it is not possible for everyone to do that, and there have been many points in my own life where I would not have been able to either. That is just the reality of the situation. Under normal circumstances, just the ups and downs of life, there is enough of a safety net to account for a few percent of people being stuck in the "shit happens" bucket at any given time. This is a good thing, because if none of that existed, those people would all still need to eat somehow, which would most likely mean either from other people's charity or by robbing someone. Or I guess by sucking dicks or selling meth.

Anyway, taking away all of those people's income at once strikes me as dangerous and irresponsible, for those practical reasons alone, to say nothing of the more emotional, "It sucks to do that to people." I think we have figured out that the nationwide unemployment system has a processing capacity of about 6.6 million claims per week, but what is the backlog - 30 million? 50 million? Not good.

Lastly, I get what you’re saying about personal freedoms. I’ll retort by asking, “Do you reeeally think you have control now?”

Thank you for responding. It wasn’t a tangent at all. It’s exactly what I was trying to figure out.

That is an excellent point, and of course the answer is that we've all probably got a lot less control than we'd like. But to paraphrase a favorite Calvin & Hobbes comic - it's never so bad that it can't get worse. It is still alarming to see what remains of that freedom being stripped away at such a rapid rate.

To some extent, everyone has probably entertained the fantasy of having your own ranch in Wyoming where nobody fucks with you, but we are really talking about some fundamental shit here. Within the past 6 months alone in this state, the government has said, "We're going to turn off everyone's electricity, it's for your own good," and, "We're going to place you under house arrest for two months, it's for your own good," and, "We're entirely likely to do it again." Like - HOLY SHIT.

There have been countless nickel-and-dime incursions into individual freedom over the past few decades, mainly ranging from practical nuisances to the theoretically unsettling, but nothing even remotely like this. At the same time, there have been wildfires before and there have been disease outbreaks before, and either of those responses would have been laughable. This is alarmingly close to a paradigm shift, and one that we don't want. The parameters until very recently were understood to be, "Contain the problem as much as reasonably possible, while using common sense and respecting the rights of the unaffected to carry on living." Now it's the reverse of that, "Stop everything; it is ok to blatantly trample on your freedom for any crisis we deem important enough; sit down and shut up." And it is not the first time. And many people are really ok with that. It blows my mind. I can't figure out whether it more resembles a runaway SJW emotional response, where every personal loss is a tragedy that must be prevented, no matter the cost ... or a caricature of a world run by out-of-control attorneys, where preventing liability is the one and only consideration ... or more likely a mixture of both. Either way, not the future I want.

Of course, I wonder about how you (and others) would answer many of the same questions ... while I could possibly surmise some of it from what is being asked, I can't read minds either.

One more thing, largely unrelated - I'll often hear you (and a couple others, like the artist formerly known as Preacher) say, "Hard as it is to believe, we actually agree about something." That always surprises me. I agree with you, both of you, about a lot of things, or even if not, it's usually easy to understand where you're coming from. Maybe the stringing out the details and such makes it seem that way sometimes, but I always found you guys to be perfectly reasonable people for the most part.

[silver & black]

The parameters until very recently were understood to be, "Contain the problem as much as reasonably possible, while using common sense and respecting the rights of the unaffected to carry on living.

This!

I understand that this thing is serious/real. There is no reason to destroy a vibrant economy and people's ability to earn a living, in a single day, with hundreds of thousands of layoffs/furloughs. I'ts just ridiculous.

Call me what you will.... I think we are witnessing the Police State becoming a reality right in front of us... and quite a lot of people seem to be just fine with it. I'm not one those people!

[Mojouw]

This is kinda of like looking through the wrong end of a pair of binoculars and forgetting the world doesn't look like that.

The service economy was tanking once this virus hit whether a single governmental agency at any level issued a stay at home order or not. As soon as people realized that going to the local dining and/or drinking establishment was how you contracted a potentially lethal virus -- they were going to severely curtail that practice. Hotels and Motels -- same. Movie theaters weren't going to be packing them in either.

Manufacturing? Well if tons of people lose their jobs because the retail and service sector took a dump, who is buying anything that is being manufactured?

This is a complex and multi-faceted issue but to advance the argument that state governments just kneecapped what would otherwise be a vibrant and thriving economy in order to enact a police state is not really a realistic viewpoint.

The economy was going to take a dumper over this virus no matter what. Say you don't shutdown states. Say that the car-making belt across the American south kept the assembly lines running. Then the virus hits that workforce and the auto makers see production slip way down as whole shifts have missing laborers...that means none of those plants are buying the widgets and gizmos they need to make cars. So, not that much different than now. And I am not talking about deaths at all, just having say 15-25% of your workforce out for 2 weeks at a time. Before you freak out over those numbers, look at the infection rates per 100K in states that didn't do any social distancing. It isn't that hard to see an entire shift getting this.

The idea was that everyone took their awful bitter economic medicine in the same 4-6 week period. Then we could all start to recover together. No point in having factories in the Northeast churning out products if Midwestern consumers still can't or won't leave their houses to shop. But...and this is the important part...we FUCKED it up. From the get go. The plan was put into place as a patchwork and never had the fundamental resources needed to work. Let alone the funding and leadership to pull it off.

So now, to avoid ANY blame for that whole mess; politicians are trying to get us all to turn around and blame state and local officials for beggaring us all in their zeal to create a dystopian police state wasteland. Don't buy into it. Keep your focus on the central problem -- there was ZERO effective and proactive national response to this. If you are feeling the economic pinch of this, be sure to realize who did it to you. It was our national leaders, in all parties, who abdicated their responsibilities to protect the populace and be prepared in the face of a national crisis. Remember those checks some of us were supposed to be getting? Don't count of them until the fall in a bunch of cases because the funding for the state agencies and computer hardware that makes the delivery of those checks possible is DECADES out of date. This was a failure of leadership across the board.

Governors, Mayors, and county level officials were left to step into the breach. In the absence of tools and coordination from a national level; they were left to essentially swing the sledgehammer of the police powers that they can wield (interesting how states are explicitly given broad police powers and the Feds are not...but that is a civics discussion for another day) because they had no other more precise tools at their disposal.

[silver & black]

Let's just say everything you said was 100% correct... now that this has been implemented and brought to fruition, what is to stop them from doing this any time they want to/feel the need? This whole thing was handled poorly... on all fronts. I don't think this bodes well for the future.

[Mojouw]

Let's just say everything you said was 100% correct... now that this has been implemented and brought to fruition, what is to stop them from doing this any time they want to/feel the need? This whole thing was handled poorly... on all fronts. I don't think this bodes well for the future.

Ans that is why we have elections. Maybe we can all start talking about actually important things next time someone runs for something, whether it be dog catcher, mayor, or president, rather than the nonsense we judge our elections on currently.

Maybe we ask "What would be the principles of your response game-plan in a national emergency, such as pandemic or natural disaster?" rather than wax poetic about how this or that candidate is "just regular folks" or "I'd have a beer with them like a regular person!" or "I bet they cut my taxes!".

Remember, you get the government you deserve in a democracy. Or at least the government (or lack thereof) that you are willing to tolerate. That and democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other ones!

[steelreserve]

Let's just say everything you said was 100% correct... now that this has been implemented and brought to fruition, what is to stop them from doing this any time they want to/feel the need? This whole thing was handled poorly... on all fronts. I don't think this bodes well for the future.

At least to me, that is as important as anything else in this. Even if it worked out with the same exact economic result, I would prefer that WITHOUT a 45-day free trial of jackboot authoritarianism.

And it's not like it's necessarily over once the blanket house arrests are lifted ... what's being talked about as the "new normal" ought to send a shiver up your spine. Real-time tracking, house arrest re-imposed if it is deemed possible someone infected came near you. Immunity certificates to go back to work. (Hell, why not just tattoo it, wouldn't that be easier?) Mandatory vaccines. Excuse me citizen, do you have the right to be outside? Papers, please.

Like, no shit, this is being talked about in America, and many people do not even raise an eyebrow. Over a disease with a very high survival rate, nearly 100% for most groups. Your rights do not just go away because there's a crisis. Is that worth more people dying? You bet your ass it is.

[Mojouw]

At least to me, that is as important as anything else in this. Even if it worked out with the same exact economic result, I would prefer that WITHOUT a 45-day free trial of jackboot authoritarianism.

And it's not like it's necessarily over once the blanket house arrests are lifted ... what's being talked about as the "new normal" ought to send a shiver up your spine. Real-time tracking, house arrest re-imposed if it is deemed possible someone infected came near you. Immunity certificates to go back to work. (Hell, why not just tattoo it, wouldn't that be easier?) Mandatory vaccines. Excuse me citizen, do you have the right to be outside? Papers, please.

Like, no shit, this is being talked about in America, and many people do not even raise an eyebrow. Over a disease with a very high survival rate, nearly 100% for most groups. Your rights do not just go away because there's a crisis. Is that worth more people dying? You bet your ass it is.

So...let me get this straight...politicians and political advisors obsessed with "efficiencies" and "free market solutions borrowed from the victors of the private sector" are championing massive data mining and tracking to solve problems? Whooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! How unexpected and totally out of nowhere.

Damn. If there was only these things every so often where we could all go somewhere (or even online) and tell our leaders what we thought of them and what we think their priorities should be....oh shit! There is and we repeatedly vote in such small numbers and over such nonsense that our leaders think they can do whatever whenever and are accountable to no one. Weird.

This is what you get when you put morons in charge of important things. Don't fund anything. Lower taxes whenever possible. Invest in nothing that doesn't provide an immediate positive return. And make government as small as possible. There is no system left when the system is asked to respond. In its place are ridiculous ideas and distasteful proposals.

[silver & black]

what's being talked about as the "new normal" ought to send a shiver up your spine

Trust me... it does!

[Shoes]

I think this guy is interesting. My point with this entire covid19 has been how can we protect ourselves and families not just covid19 but the flu, colds, etc. The human body is a healing machine but it needs the right fuel to build a strong immune system, sure vitamins help but the right food is better and that is what people don't want to hear. "Just give me some pills or a shot" It is the same problem that causes someone to die from heart disease every 37 seconds in America.

[silver & black]

This is what you get when you put morons in charge of important things. Don't fund anything. Lower taxes whenever possible. Invest in nothing that doesn't provide an immediate positive return. And make government as small as possible. There is no system left when the system is asked to respond. In its place are ridiculous ideas and distasteful proposals.

I agree.... somewhat. I DO NOT agree with big Gov. taking care of everyone.... the lazy, illegals, those bilking the "system". At some point the people of this country have got to come to some meeting of the minds. I won't hold my breath. Politics today are just finger pointing and hatred of the other "side"...... and both sides practice it.

This is got off track...lol. Lets get this country working again.... while being safe and intelligent about it.

[Mojouw]

I agree.... somewhat. I DO NOT agree with big Gov. taking care of everyone.... the lazy, illegals, those bilking the "system". At some point the people of this country have got to come to some meeting of the minds. I won't hold my breath. Politics today are just finger pointing and hatred of the other "side"...... and both sides practice it.

This is got off track...lol. Lets get this country working again.... while being safe and intelligent about it.

Absolutely let's do all of that. You know how you do that with effective BIG government. You know who is going back to work? Places with big government and effective leadership.
Denmark: https://apple.news/A1xAkiVfYSAaMIqS0GO8aoQ
And Germany to name just two. Several Asian countries.

But places like here and the UK that have fetishised small government? It's a mess.

I hope people remember.

[silver & black]

Absolutely let's do all of that. You know how you do that with effective BIG government. You know who is going back to work? Places with big government and effective leadership.
Denmark: https://apple.news/A1xAkiVfYSAaMIqS0GO8aoQ
And Germany to name just two. Several Asian countries.

But places like here and the UK that have fetishised small government? It's a mess.

I hope people remember.

I am not a fan of BIG government... never have been. I feel big government stifles productivity and personal pride. Small government encourages productivity and personal pride in one's self... IMO.

If you are Christian, what I just said flies in the face of your beliefs, as one is not to have personal pride. It is something I struggle with as a Christian.

I firmly believe that government is necessary. I just don't believe it should rule the constituency.

[Mojouw]

I am not a fan of BIG government... never have been. I feel big government stifles productivity and personal pride. Small government encourages productivity and personal pride in one's self... IMO.

If you are Christian, what I just said flies in the face of your beliefs, as one is not to have personal pride. It is something I struggle with as a Christian.

I firmly believe that government is necessary. I just don't believe it should rule the constituency.

All that might be true. Or it might be a big fat mythologized lie that one side of the American political spectrum tried to sell us in order to get us to go along with the deregulations their corporate paymasters demanded.

I don't see how having a pandemic response team, natural disaster preparedness plans, national reserves of critical equipment, and ohhhh...I dunno....something crazy like filling all government posts would stifle anyones pride or productivity.

But we've been sold a whopper in this country. The whopper is that somehow a functional government that can handle big crisis scenarios is an on-ramp to socialism or communism or some other nonsense. And somehow that government is going to smother all your attempts to better youself because reasons.

The extremes of "big" or "nanny state" government are obvious and should be avoided. Like the extremes of all things. But we are now seeing the other extreme -- government that is so small and non-functional as to be useless. Where is all that personal productivity and pride now? Has it built a single necessary medical device? Developed a single reliable test? Upgraded a single decrepit computer system so stimulus and relief money can begin to flow?

We are, like it or not, members of a communal society. What happens to one of us ripples out and impacts all of us to varying degrees. But we bought this myth that we are all living in some isolated compound on the vast American frontier and only through the sweat of our brow and our bootstraps will we tame the land and protect our homestead. It is a farce. While we are all focused on making sure government is small and unobtrusive, corporations get bigger and more ludicrous. Here is one example. Want to know why there are no extra ventilators? Because a corporate board decided that the profit margin was too slim and broke its contract. We, the American taxpayers, paid for thousands of the things. Then a big company gobbled up a smaller company and decided that the government contract was no longer profitable enough to be honored. So there went that. And guess what? The people who were wondering why they couldn't get the contract honored were told to pound rocks because...something...something...don't interfere in free enterprise. Wonder if anyone kinda wishes that "big government" had thrown its weight around and made this company honor the contract and deliver the items that the taxpayers had paid for?

All sides are full of crap and we, the voters, need to realize that small government is simply code for we want to take all the money and cool stuff for ourselves and our wealthy paymasters.

[silver & black]

We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. I just don't think government has a big part in my life.... or anyone else's. Government is important, I agree. WE are the the government. Elected officials are just that. They work for US. Government is to oversee and be there in times of need or extreme situations.... like now. Other than that... stay out of my life and what I think, say, do or practice in my life every day. I don't need the "government" to provide for me or dictate what I should or will do.

That last statement sounds contradictory, I know. The situation we are in dictates that NOW is the time where government is welcomed. We all pay into government, therefore governmen should be there when we need it.... like now. Other than that.... government can stay out of my life.

[Mojouw]

We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this. I just don't think government has a big part in my life.... or anyone else's. Government is important, I agree. WE are the the government. Elected officials are just that. They work for US. Government is to oversee and be there in times of need or extreme situations.... like now. Other than that... stay out of my life and what I think, say, do or practice in my life every day. I don't need the "government" to provide for me or dictate what I should or will do.

That last statement sounds contradictory, I know. The situation we are in dictates that NOW is the time where government is welcomed. We all pay into government, therefore governmen should be there when we need it.... like now. Other than that.... government can stay out of my life.

Exactly. And the idea that our only options are two extremes, the smallest government possible or a government that runs your daily life is the central lie we've been sold.

This is what small government looks like in a crisis. Weak and ineffective. I'm certainly not advocating for any sort of government that runs my daily mundane decisions or yours or anyones. I'm just stumping for a government that functions and provides what is beyond our abilities to accomplish as isolated individuals.

[silver & black]

Exactly. And the idea that our only options are two extremes, the smallest government possible or a government that runs your daily life is the central lie we've been sold.

This is what small government looks like in a crisis. Weak and ineffective. I'm certainly not advocating for any sort of government that runs my daily mundane decisions or yours or anyones. I'm just stumping for a government that functions and provides what is beyond our abilities to accomplish as isolated individuals.

Don't you think government plays to much of a roll in our lives now? I do. That doesn't mean I'm against government. I understand the importance the roll of government has in our lives. I just think it's in the way most of the time. The biggest problem I see with government is the corruption as a whole... no matter what party you support. I would advocate that government should operate in the background, and only being prominent in a situation like we are in right now. what government is doing right now is fine with me... to an extent.

[Mojouw]

Don't you think government plays to much of a roll in our lives now? I do. That doesn't mean I'm against government. I understand the importance the roll of government has in our lives. I just think it's in the way most of the time. The biggest problem I see with government is the corruption as a whole... no matter what party you support. I would advocate that government should operate in the background, and only being prominent in a situation like we are in right now. what government is doing right now is fine with me... to an extent.

I think you've hit on the part I've never been able wrap my head around. I've probably got some blinders on the issue or something. But other than taxes and some laws, the government is pretty distant to my life. Would the government prefer that I believe a few things I don't? Sure. Would the government like it if I made a few choices I don't choose to make? Also likely. But, so far, they haven't enforced any of these preferences.

Out of curiosity, what does the government do in my daily life that I should view as a problem? Recent virus stuff excluded.

[Hawkman]

So...let me get this straight...politicians and political advisors obsessed with "efficiencies" and "free market solutions borrowed from the victors of the private sector" are championing massive data mining and tracking to solve problems? Whooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! How unexpected and totally out of nowhere.

Damn. If there was only these things every so often where we could all go somewhere (or even online) and tell our leaders what we thought of them and what we think their priorities should be....oh shit! There is and we repeatedly vote in such small numbers and over such nonsense that our leaders think they can do whatever whenever and are accountable to no one. Weird.

This is what you get when you put morons in charge of important things. Don't fund anything. Lower taxes whenever possible. Invest in nothing that doesn't provide an immediate positive return. And make government as small as possible. There is no system left when the system is asked to respond. In its place are ridiculous ideas and distasteful proposals.

The last paragraph seemed to have a little more “agenda” than I’m use to seeing from you. I can’t seem to post websites or YouTube with this iPad, but Jennifer Lawrence’s take on government is pretty intriguing. A little simplistic, but sometimes that’s the most successful. It’s worth checking out.

[Mojouw]

The last paragraph seemed to have a little more “agenda” than I’m use to seeing from you. I can’t seem to post websites or YouTube with this iPad, but Jennifer Lawrence’s take on government is pretty intriguing. A little simplistic, but sometimes that’s the most successful. It’s worth checking out.

I'll check it out. I'm rapidly against what I view as the small government myth/lie. I unabashedly believe it's a canard put out there by politicos to justify the actions they take on behalf of the institutions that have bought and paid for them.

I don't like a vision of some monolithic nanny state either. So maybe medum government?

[Hawkman]

It’s sad to see discussions like this end up in belittling and condescension. Sounds a little like politicians. Results......people stop listening. Too bad because many have good ideas.

[steelreserve]

So...let me get this straight...politicians and political advisors obsessed with "efficiencies" and "free market solutions borrowed from the victors of the private sector" are championing massive data mining and tracking to solve problems? Whooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! How unexpected and totally out of nowhere.

Damn. If there was only these things every so often where we could all go somewhere (or even online) and tell our leaders what we thought of them and what we think their priorities should be....oh shit! There is and we repeatedly vote in such small numbers and over such nonsense that our leaders think they can do whatever whenever and are accountable to no one. Weird.

This is what you get when you put morons in charge of important things. Don't fund anything. Lower taxes whenever possible. Invest in nothing that doesn't provide an immediate positive return. And make government as small as possible. There is no system left when the system is asked to respond. In its place are ridiculous ideas and distasteful proposals.

I think a fair question to ask about this is: What would constitute a "success" in your opinion? Because for all the ways in which we could have been more prepared, ultimately the overall outcome for the U.S. relative to everyone else seems to be about normal. Not great, not horrible. Outside of New York City, the U.S. death rate would be among the lowest per capita among any place with an appreciable number of cases, but of course, New York is part of the country, so it can't be ignored.

Still, in total, we are sitting at less than 0.01% of the population dead, probably with a final count between 0.01% and 0.015% if this is indeed the worst of the current outbreak. It could've been worse than that and still been fine in my opinion, but certainly that is not the case for everyone.

Exactly. And the idea that our only options are two extremes, the smallest government possible or a government that runs your daily life is the central lie we've been sold.

This is what small government looks like in a crisis. Weak and ineffective. I'm certainly not advocating for any sort of government that runs my daily mundane decisions or yours or anyones. I'm just stumping for a government that functions and provides what is beyond our abilities to accomplish as isolated individuals.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one. Americans may think we have "small government," but it is actually anything but that. Per capita spending is within a couple thousand dollars of most of the Western European countries we point to as models (and higher than, for one, Canada). Tax burden as a percentage of GDP is in the low 40s as compared to the mid to high 40s for most of those. The big difference, of course, is that we have the highest military budget by far, but even then it is still only about 3 percent of GDP. On balance, we are a bit lower than these countries that are pointed to as models of big happy government, but if we think it is night and day, we are fooling ourselves.

As one who lives in the capital of big government in this country, my own experience is that it doesn't do shit for me. It causes a nuisance in some way almost daily, offers nothing in the way of security or quality of life, and adds a noticeable financial burden. Really the only ones I see benefiting from it at all are the government employees. Overall, inclusive of federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and other taxes, more than 50 percent of my income goes to the government off the top, and if that does not sound completely insane to you, I don't know what to tell you.

A big problem, at least in this country, is that where there is big government, it is not used for the "common good," it is co-opted by people who infiltrate it to use for their own interests and agendas. It ends up being run more like a mafia than a non-profit. This happens time and again, from Boss Tweed, to the Chicago Machine, to the California government today, as well as across countless agencies, bureaus, and various government apparatuses for nearly all of our history. I do not know whether that is peculiar to this country, but it certainly is there, and for my own part at least, I am not terribly interested in embracing more of it with open arms.

[Hawkman]

I'll check it out. I'm rapidly against what I view as the small government myth/lie. I unabashedly believe it's a canard put out there by politicos to justify the actions they take on behalf of the institutions that have bought and paid for them.

I don't like a vision of some monolithic nanny state either. So maybe medum government?

Being a true Independent, I’m for the later.

[Mojouw]

Being a true Independent, I’m for the later.

If this is the link you mentioned earlier

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/polit...system-failure

Then I'm all for the major proposals and have been for some time.

[Mojouw]

So here is how I believe effective leadership would've went down:

1. Upon hearing of an emerging potential pandemic, large quantities of effective tests would've been stockpiled. Medical professionals would've been sent to the initial outbreak zones to learn what they could. Like was done for Ebola.

2. A national strategy would've been devised and the Governor's wrangled into line.

3. Once the virus hit, the game plan goes into action.

4. Testing is widely and freely available. Hotspots are targeted for detailed lockdown. Rest of us go into social distancing and cautious avoidance. So like New York lockdown and rural Wyomimg doesn't. If the outbreak threatens to break that cordon, coordinated lockdown goes into place. 4 weeks. Then a coordinated ramp-up.

5. Other strategies could've included enacting laws to direct specific national production goals for critical supplies. Mobilize FEMA to assist hard hit areas. On the backside, mobilize any remaining supplies in aid airlifts to other areas. No tangible goal on that one, but massive international Goodwill has a way of paying off in the long run.

Maximum slowing of virus for minimal disruption of average life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hawkman]

So here is how I believe effective leadership would've went down:

1. Upon hearing of an emerging potential pandemic, large quantities of effective tests would've been stockpiled. Medical professionals would've been sent to the initial outbreak zones to learn what they could. Like was done for Ebola.

2. A national strategy would've been devised and the Governor's wrangled into line.

3. Once the virus hit, the game plan goes into action.

4. Testing is widely and freely available. Hotspots are targeted for detailed lockdown. Rest of us go into social distancing and cautious avoidance. So like New York lockdown and rural Wyomimg doesn't. If the outbreak threatens to break that cordon, coordinated lockdown goes into place. 4 weeks. Then a coordinated ramp-up.

5. Other strategies could've included enacting laws to direct specific national production goals for critical supplies. Mobilize FEMA to assist hard hit areas. On the backside, mobilize any remaining supplies in aid airlifts to other areas. No tangible goal on that one, but massive international Goodwill has a way of paying off in the long run.

Maximum slowing of virus for minimal disruption of average life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s a good strategy, but a problem with #1. There were not any immediate Identifiers for the “Covid-19”. You can’t test for something that specific that fast. Hell each year we get a flu shot, and it’s a bit of a crap shoot as to which strain it is.....and they missed badly this year on the “ normal “ Influenzas shots. Next, China was extremely slow in reporting the outbreak, whether on purpose or not, we may never no. No American Epidemiologist was ever going to be allowed onto the Diamond Princess, to check out the infected. Lastly, and this is just for the testing.....you can’t spin up twenty million tests
for a virus that’s barely been identified, overnight. The fact that three million have been administered in the US in less than a month, is pretty impressive......double, almost triple of any other country. Yeah I know, we are bigger.
Good news, several thousand people involved with MLB, have volunteered to immediately start testing on antibodies. Now whether that was just being “PUNKED” .....we will find out.