Do we want Ben back?

[hawaiiansteeler]

Which is why the first order of business for the offseason was firing the OC. No real plan in place but Fichtner was gone immediately. I hope we replace him with Bienemy or Leftwich personally.

those would be lateral moves for them, not gonna happen.

[Mojouw]

Which is why the first order of business for the offseason was firing the OC. No real plan in place but Fichtner was gone immediately. I hope we replace him with Bienemy or Leftwich personally.

I think you could replace Fichtner with the best OC in the history of football and it won't matter much.

Sean Payton is a really good offensive coach and he couldn't hide all Brees' limitations.

[Born2Steel]

I think you could replace Fichtner with the best OC in the history of football and it won't matter much.

Sean Payton is a really good offensive coach and he couldn't hide all Brees' limitations.

Once again, Brees has zero to do with Ben. Or any other QB for that matter. To sell Ben has fallen off you need to show Ben vs Ben. I did that already if you want to scroll back.

[Mojouw]

Once again, Brees has zero to do with Ben. Or any other QB for that matter. To sell Ben has fallen off you need to show Ben vs Ben. I did that already if you want to scroll back.

You've done nothing of the sort. I don't think anyone buys the hypothesis that the Ben from 2020 is within shouting distance of the player he was in 2018 let alone before that.

Watch the second Bengals game again. That guy was a ghost of his former self.

[steelcityboyz]

He can't push the ball down the field. The end. Neither could Brees and Rivers. They both retired. So should Ben.

Is that simple enough?

You're right, and when Ben did get the ball down field he was so inaccurate it was sickening. I have to say that watching Brady and Rogers throw the ball today was refreshing.

[Born2Steel]

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...R/RoetBe00.htm

Ben's numbers speak for themselves. IF Ben was inaccurate this season then he has been inaccurate for his entire career. You can use this link and go year by year by year if you really want to compare and contrast.

Here it is.

[pczach]

I meant that the offense you paint the picture of with your supposedly telling statistics is one where the QB is unwilling or unable to make plays down the field. Continually throws short of the sticks and hopes the receiver can make a series of defenders miss and rack up a ton of YAC.

That is Trubisky to Cohen or Howard. That is Alex Smith to insert RB or TE here. That is Andy Dalton to whoever remained healthy for the Cowboys. That was Joe Burrow before he got hurt being protected from having to challenge NFL DBs down the field.

That is not the offense you are going to win a SB with. Can you win some games? Maybe even a bunch? Absolutely. Teams do every year. But will you come up far short of your ultimate goal? You bet.

So I have zero interest in a diminished and declining Ben Roethlisberger puffing and wheezing his way across the 2021 finish line at the helm of a throw short run long 8-8 football team.

I understand doubting Ben based on how the season ended, but I think you are missing how pathetic the offense became under Fichtner.

There are many plays where there isn't a single pass pattern more than 5 yards down the field. I'm not shitting you. And you wonder why teams are walking safeties down and playing downhill. That's a large part of it. Only when Ben would go no huddle and spread the field with more downfield routes that would spread the field and create some space did the offense really get going.

The other thing is the OL was giving up quick pressure.........AND he was getting rid of the ball at the fastest rate since they started tracking the stat. That doesn't create an environment for making plays down the field. It also means that the throws are much more difficult because he cannot throw the ball on time and in rhythm. That is a huge part of the problem. Ask any quarterback how difficult it is to have to consistently throw the ball too early, when the routes haven't developed. It's very, very hard to do.

You have watched Brady's entire career of throwing a shitload of short passes, occasional deep passes, and slide to the turf to give himself up if the rush gets within 2 yards of him. He did that, but they always made it work because they had a great OL that could run the ball and pass protect.

Of course Ben isn't as physically gifted as he was. I just think that there were some reasons that contributed to the problems.

I really don't know what Ben's condition is. I have some doubts myself. I know and have played with people that have had major arm surgeries on ligaments, and some of them have said they almost didn't feel the ball the same way for the first year or so. They describe it as almost like they are using someone else's arm. This is baseball and football. I have no first-hand knowledge of anything regarding Ben. I'm just speculating based on personal information based on life experience. It is possible.

I totally understand people looking at him and saying he's done. I really do. I just look at a lot of things going on around him, and what he was still able to do when he would take over the play calling and the OL gave him time....all with no running game. It makes me think he may still have a little juice.

I truly don't have the answer, but I think he will be back next season. Only time will reveal what he has left if they can get a couple pieces on the OL and get the running game going.

I also understand if they start the rebuild and go in a new direction with another QB. I think the team has a much better understanding of whether he was injured more than we know. They know the condition of his arm. They have the game tape. They will evaluate the offense they have been running and decide how much of a factor it was. They know what's going on in a way that we can't possibly know.

[Mojouw]

Here it is.

And we've been through this. That's a QB how throws about 5-7 yards every time and hopes to pop a big play. That's somewhere between 1.5-4 yards less than he's thrown per pass then ever before. Many of those years in the exact same system behind far shakier offensive lines.

[Born2Steel]

And we've been through this. That's a QB how throws about 5-7 yards every time and hopes to pop a big play. That's somewhere between 1.5-4 yards less than he's thrown per pass then ever before. Many of those years in the exact same system behind far shakier offensive lines.

Compare Ben to Ben then and show me the significant drop offs. You can’t because there are none.

[Mojouw]

Compare Ben to Ben then and show me the significant drop offs. You can’t because there are none.

Yards per target. Yards per completion. Yards per attempt. However you want to measure it.

Google any website that measures or tracks how short a QB throws to the marker, particularly on 3rd down. Way down from career averages.

Or look at something like this breakdown of his pass attempts. https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usa...hlisberger/amp

He's a diminished and declining QB who needs the system to insulate and elevate him rather than the other way around.

And if it is the system holding Ben back, why were Rudolph's Week 17 yards per whatever measures up around Ben's previous career marks? https://www.pro-football-reference.c...R/RudoMa00.htm

[Born2Steel]

Yards per target. Yards per completion. Yards per attempt. However you want to measure it.

Google any website that measures or tracks how short a QB throws to the marker, particularly on 3rd down. Way down from career averages.

Or look at something like this breakdown of his pass attempts. https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usa...hlisberger/amp

He's a diminished and declining QB who needs the system to insulate and elevate him rather than the other way around.

And if it is the system holding Ben back, why were Rudolph's Week 17 yards per whatever measures up around Ben's previous career marks? https://www.pro-football-reference.c...R/RudoMa00.htm

His 3rd down passes were way shorter than career average?

[Mojouw]

His 3rd down passes were way shorter than career average?

When I checked earlier this season they were. Ben typically threw past the sticks over the course of his career. This year he was throwing well short.

[Born2Steel]

Which was covered in the offensive philosophy part of this discussion. Throw short, run long. Over the course of the season they ran it well. When NFL defenses caught up to what they were doing it stopped being as effective. When Ben played Ben-ball the offense picked back up. Fichtner stayed the course and lost his job for it. There were some other issues but that was the nuts and bolts of it. It was not because a QB suddenly got older halfway through the season.

[Mojouw]

Which was covered in the offensive philosophy part of this discussion. Throw short, run long. Over the course of the season they ran it well. When NFL defenses caught up to what they were doing it stopped being as effective. When Ben played Ben-ball the offense picked back up. Fichtner stayed the course and lost his job for it. There were some other issues but that was the nuts and bolts of it. It was not because a QB suddenly got older halfway through the season.

Then why did Rudolph throw for 2 yards more per pass in the same system?

Short passes were called because Ben can't go down the field reliablely anymore. Particularly over the middle.

[Born2Steel]

Then why did Rudolph throw for 2 yards more per pass in the same system?

Short passes were called because Ben can't go down the field reliablely anymore. Particularly over the middle.

Yes Sensai.

[Mojouw]

Yes Sensai.

No need to get huffy about it. It's just football on the internet.

Like I said before, we will all find out. It's almost a lock that Ben starts 2021 under center.

[Born2Steel]

No need to get huffy about it. It's just football on the internet.

Like I said before, we will all find out. It's almost a lock that Ben starts 2021 under center.

Not huffy at all. You just obviously know inside info I don’t. Throw the ball .5yards shorter than a career average because that arm is just too weak now. Doesn’t make sense to me but I’ll defer.

[Steeler-in-west]

The Ben from the second half of the colts game would be great to have back. But I don’t know if that guy can show up much anymore. The fact that fichtner was let go pretty quickly does indicate there was a problem with the scheme so maybe Ben can still play. Seems like this is a decision between Ben and the team that won’t be made until the offseason at the earliest.

[Steel Peon]

I think Ben's arm is perfectly healthy because he consistently OVER-throws his receivers, and this is nothing new to him, as was his accuracy which goes from great to poor at any given moment. That being said, we've seen a lot more of the "poor-judgement" Ben this season than in any prior, and I don't see this getting better.

There are soooooo many positives that I could heap on Ben, but they're mostly from his past performances, so I won't get into all that, and only suffice to say I've always loved this guy, especially for his toughness.

However... It is without doubt, in my mind at least, that were Ben to be our starting QB in 2021, no matter what performance he turns in (even winning a Lombardi), he will most certainly be the most over-paid QB ever in NFL history, considering both his cap hit and salary.

[katmandu]

When you have a QB that lets you expect playoffs every year you start to think you deserve the SB every 2-3 seasons.

That just isn't realistic.

Umm.... WE'RE STEELER FANS. We EXPECT SuperBowls every year. NO excuses !

[RunNGun]

Compare Ben to Ben then and show me the significant drop offs. You can’t because there are none.

C'mon man. Did you watch any Steelers games this season? How is anyone in their right mind going to sit their and say Ben hasn't regressed? I don't care about any of the stats. I witnessed it with my own eyes.

[86WARD]

The main thing I noticed with Ben this season is that he was forcing balls at times and not going through his progressions. Just in the last few games he missed seeing wide open receivers. He was still reading defenses, pre-snap, fine but after snap, it seems like his progressional reads were bad.

[Born2Steel]

Ben made too many good and tough throws this season to make me think he is "done". His stat sheet over the past 17 seasons is pretty much identical every year with few exceptions and 2020 was not one of those exceptions. I did watch most of the games this season actually, and saw a FEW different problems than a broke down BenR. Ben is not the problem with this offense.



Here is the OC talking about exactly what I was trying to explain earlier. Maybe this does a better job than I did. Maybe not.
https://www.steelers.com/news/the-long-and-short-of-it

[DesertSteel]

Ben made too many good and tough throws this season to make me think he is "done".

He may not be done but he's probably ranked somewhere between 14-18. He's nowhere near top 5 as he used to be.

[Mojouw]

The main thing I noticed with Ben this season is that he was forcing balls at times and not going through his progressions. Just in the last few games he missed seeing wide open receivers. He was still reading defenses, pre-snap, fine but after snap, it seems like his progressional reads were bad.

By the playoff game against Cleveland, it looked like defenses were often showing one thing pre-snap, getting Ben to make decision to go to a receiver in his 2.1 seconds; then post-snap doing something different and Ben was not adjusting and still tried to go to the same receiver. There was an article with moving pictures and whatnot where someone smarter than me laid this all out. If it wasn't behind a paywall somewhere or others...I will post it.

[Shoes]

He may not be done but he's probably ranked somewhere between 14-18. He's nowhere near top 5 as he used to be.

Which is why he's not worth the money imo.

[Mojouw]

He may not be done but he's probably ranked somewhere between 14-18. He's nowhere near top 5 as he used to be.

Being able to heave a football very very far does not mean you can play NFL QB. Somewhere, right now, Jeff George and Kyle Boller can probably still throw a ball most of the length of the field on like 4 warm-up throws.

[Born2Steel]

He may not be done but he's probably ranked somewhere between 14-18. He's nowhere near top 5 as he used to be.

Fair enough, opinions vary. I'm not ranking or comparing him though. I'm answering the suggestion that he has 'lost it' and has fallen off to the point of not being a viable QB anymore. Do we want Ben back? Who do we realistically have that is going to do better/give a better chance of winning games? Ben is the best chance the Steelers have. We'll see how a new OC sees the landscape. If he comes in and benches Ben for Rudolph, there's your smoking gun.

[Mojouw]

I understand doubting Ben based on how the season ended, but I think you are missing how pathetic the offense became under Fichtner.

There are many plays where there isn't a single pass pattern more than 5 yards down the field. I'm not shitting you. And you wonder why teams are walking safeties down and playing downhill. That's a large part of it. Only when Ben would go no huddle and spread the field with more downfield routes that would spread the field and create some space did the offense really get going.

The other thing is the OL was giving up quick pressure.........AND he was getting rid of the ball at the fastest rate since they started tracking the stat. That doesn't create an environment for making plays down the field. It also means that the throws are much more difficult because he cannot throw the ball on time and in rhythm. That is a huge part of the problem. Ask any quarterback how difficult it is to have to consistently throw the ball too early, when the routes haven't developed. It's very, very hard to do.

You have watched Brady's entire career of throwing a shitload of short passes, occasional deep passes, and slide to the turf to give himself up if the rush gets within 2 yards of him. He did that, but they always made it work because they had a great OL that could run the ball and pass protect.

Of course Ben isn't as physically gifted as he was. I just think that there were some reasons that contributed to the problems.

I really don't know what Ben's condition is. I have some doubts myself. I know and have played with people that have had major arm surgeries on ligaments, and some of them have said they almost didn't feel the ball the same way for the first year or so. They describe it as almost like they are using someone else's arm. This is baseball and football. I have no first-hand knowledge of anything regarding Ben. I'm just speculating based on personal information based on life experience. It is possible.

I totally understand people looking at him and saying he's done. I really do. I just look at a lot of things going on around him, and what he was still able to do when he would take over the play calling and the OL gave him time....all with no running game. It makes me think he may still have a little juice.

I truly don't have the answer, but I think he will be back next season. Only time will reveal what he has left if they can get a couple pieces on the OL and get the running game going.

I also understand if they start the rebuild and go in a new direction with another QB. I think the team has a much better understanding of whether he was injured more than we know. They know the condition of his arm. They have the game tape. They will evaluate the offense they have been running and decide how much of a factor it was. They know what's going on in a way that we can't possibly know.

He will be back next season, so all of this moot.

Go back and take a look at the play calling and the offensive approach before the first Ravens game. That was a more balanced approach. But even then, Ben wasn't hitting his shots and was inaccurate on throws at all levels.

Everyone immediately reads anything said in this manner as an attempt to defend Fichnter...and it is not. He stinks and needed to go. But we can look at the rest of it and either conclude that Ben was hampered by a dum-dum coordinator or that a dum-dum coordinator had a diminished QB and this nonsense was all he could come up with.

I freely acknowledge that this sets up a spectrum between 2 extremes. The reality can be anywhere along that continuum. No one would be happier if the story of the 2021 season is the triumphant return Ben Roethlisberger. But we have a few seasons worth of evidence now. I thought the elbow was the reason for his evaporated accuracy in 2017-2018. Yes, I know he racked up the league lead in yards. It was also on a massive league leading number of attempts. Well that got "fixed" and he was still scattershot. All I am left with, because, really what do I know, is that Father Time has reaped another great player.

[DesertSteel]

Fair enough, opinions vary. I'm not ranking or comparing him though. I'm answering the suggestion that he has 'lost it' and has fallen off to the point of not being a viable QB anymore. Do we want Ben back? Who do we realistically have that is going to do better/give a better chance of winning games? Ben is the best chance the Steelers have. We'll see how a new OC sees the landscape. If he comes in and benches Ben for Rudolph, there's your smoking gun.

But going from 3-5 to 18 is losing it. It's MJ for the Wizards. Sure he was still averaging 20 ppg but it was over.