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Thread: Do we want Ben back?

  1. #61
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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    you said he's been in decline for 3 years i gave you the last 3 years of healthy Ben which are 16/17/18...19 is omitted
    Pay attention next time young grasshopper lol

    Oh, just wondering if you know how well AB did in Pittsburgh sans Ben? Sure he was a factor but the main factor was Ben.
    How'd Bell do with the Jets?
    Exactly...

    You come across like a Steelers fan that just became one within the last week...you honestly make me laugh.
    I was born a Steelers fan. My dad is from Pittsburgh. Who AB is now and how Bell is producing in NY has nothing to do with this topic. AB was the most productive WR in the NFL for 5 or 6 seasons and a huge asset to our offense. Bell was arguably the best RB in that period as well. Neither of their production has been replaced. Now we are expecting a 40 year old Ben to carry this team to a Super Bowl with a shotty Oline and unproven skill players.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Sure. Who is gonna replace him?
    Virtually impossible. Nobody will replace Ben and what he brought to the table. One of the many reasons why the offense failed hard last season. The offense was built for Ben.

    Rudolph, Duck, or whomever will not replace Ben. The most we can hope for out of them is that they somehow evolve into their own stars. Somehow.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    I was born a Steelers fan. My dad is from Pittsburgh. Who AB is now and how Bell is producing in NY has nothing to do with this topic. AB was the most productive WR in the NFL for 5 or 6 seasons and a huge asset to our offense. Bell was arguably the best RB in that period as well. Neither of their production has been replaced. Now we are expecting a 40 year old Ben to carry this team to a Super Bowl with a shotty Oline and unproven skill players.
    I'm glad you've been a fan for as long as you have.

    You said how Ben can be replaced and how good we were with Brown and Bell
    I'm saying in turn how good were both without Ben. And in Bells case a good oline that knew how to block for him.
    So we know Bell sucks.
    But I'll be nice to help you out Brown sans Ben at one point extrapolating his stats to a full season for Brown would amount to 90 catches close to 1k in yards and Z E R O TD catches.
    Everyone outside and heck even within Pittsburgh thought Brown was the be all end all...it's the guy throwing him the ball.
    Without him you got nothing, and that was more evident than ever this past season.

    Granted no one knows what's going to happen between now and OTAs/Camp with Ben so

    We won't know until the 'real' games start plain and simple

  4. #64
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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I'm glad you've been a fan for as long as you have.

    You said how Ben can be replaced and how good we were with Brown and Bell
    I'm saying in turn how good were both without Ben. And in Bells case a good oline that knew how to block for him.
    So we know Bell sucks.
    But I'll be nice to help you out Brown sans Ben at one point extrapolating his stats to a full season for Brown would amount to 90 catches close to 1k in yards and Z E R O TD catches.
    Everyone outside and heck even within Pittsburgh thought Brown was the be all end all...it's the guy throwing him the ball.
    Without him you got nothing, and that was more evident than ever this past season.

    Granted no one knows what's going to happen between now and OTAs/Camp with Ben so

    We won't know until the 'real' games start plain and simple
    I think you are letting your love of Ben skew the reality of LeVeon Bell and AB.

    I don't know how anyone could discredit LeVeon Bell's running ability and say that it was due to his QB. Sure, the receptions need a good QB to put the ball in place, but the ability to see seams, patience to wait for blocks to open, the setting up of his runs to make the seam open, the cutback ability, eluding of open field tackles had nothing to do with the QB.



    LeVeon Bell was a generational talent with a team that liked to use him as a RB and receiver, but he held out for more $$ and went to a dysfunctional Jets team with a Head Coach that doesn't want to use him and will be fired this season.

    Similarly, AB is one of the best all time WR's and was in a prime spot where he had a future HOF QB and was the #1 option, the RB was the #2 option and AB was the #3 option in the passing game. Ben wasn't able to make Emannuel Sanders the WR he has been since he left Pittsburgh, mostly because Ben had better receiving options IMO.

    Bell and AB made things easier for Ben. Ben was a better QB than what AB was gonna have in Oakland before he went crazy and Bell overestimated his worth and had to settle for getting paid by the Jets.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Bell is a mediocre RB without an o-line, the Jets proved he's just another RB without a HOF QB and an elite O-line. AB though I think was more impactful. Ben didn't need AB to be great but I can't help think about how the offensive production immediately dipped without AB (week 17 in a must win games against the Bengals 3rd string defense). Though I think the regression in o-line was also a major factor and losing Munch hurt

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I'm glad you've been a fan for as long as you have.

    You said how Ben can be replaced and how good we were with Brown and Bell
    I'm saying in turn how good were both without Ben. And in Bells case a good oline that knew how to block for him.
    So we know Bell sucks.
    But I'll be nice to help you out Brown sans Ben at one point extrapolating his stats to a full season for Brown would amount to 90 catches close to 1k in yards and Z E R O TD catches.
    Everyone outside and heck even within Pittsburgh thought Brown was the be all end all...it's the guy throwing him the ball.
    Without him you got nothing, and that was more evident than ever this past season.

    Granted no one knows what's going to happen between now and OTAs/Camp with Ben so

    We won't know until the 'real' games start plain and simple
    I disagree. Brown would be productive on any team that had a solid QB. He was that kind of talent. It's different with RBs though. Bell went to a shithole. There's only 1 RB that I can say off the top of my head that was productive with a below average OL...Barry Sanders.

    AB needed Ben just as much as Ben needed AB. Imo, we were on our way of witnessing that last year.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think you are letting your love of Ben skew the reality of LeVeon Bell and AB.

    I don't know how anyone could discredit LeVeon Bell's running ability and say that it was due to his QB. Sure, the receptions need a good QB to put the ball in place, but the ability to see seams, patience to wait for blocks to open, the setting up of his runs to make the seam open, the cutback ability, eluding of open field tackles had nothing to do with the QB.



    LeVeon Bell was a generational talent with a team that liked to use him as a RB and receiver, but he held out for more $$ and went to a dysfunctional Jets team with a Head Coach that doesn't want to use him and will be fired this season.

    Similarly, AB is one of the best all time WR's and was in a prime spot where he had a future HOF QB and was the #1 option, the RB was the #2 option and AB was the #3 option in the passing game. Ben wasn't able to make Emannuel Sanders the WR he has been since he left Pittsburgh, mostly because Ben had better receiving options IMO.

    Bell and AB made things easier for Ben. Ben was a better QB than what AB was gonna have in Oakland before he went crazy and Bell overestimated his worth and had to settle for getting paid by the Jets.
    I did say oline if you read it again which helped him immensly as they knew how to block for him. So yes Ben had zero to do with that
    But having that special QB or a legit one also helps Bell look good since that guy can pass him the ball something he didn't have with the putrid Jets.
    I don't remember hearing a thing about Bell while with the Jets...kind of odd if you ask me since he's a generational talent as you say.

    There's obviously the odd RB that doesn't need a good QB
    Heck look at Henry for the Titans
    Gurley BEFORE his knee acted up
    Elliott
    Barkley
    Those are the traditional east/west or north/south runners
    Bell IS NOT that type; he just needs more help with his style but that's what makes guys unique.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    I disagree. Brown would be productive on any team that had a solid QB. He was that kind of talent. It's different with RBs though. Bell went to a shithole. There's only 1 RB that I can say off the top of my head that was productive with a below average OL...Barry Sanders.

    AB needed Ben just as much as Ben needed AB. Imo, we were on our way of witnessing that last year.
    Who's a solid QB on your list
    Flacco?
    Rivers?
    (insert shit emoji here)

    Sure he had the one game with Brady but would they have maintained that...not sure as Brady was average at best towards the end of the year.

    Brees? He was starting to faulter too

    Mahomes would be the only guy I can say currently he'd look solid with.

  8. #68
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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersNorth View Post
    I did say oline if you read it again which helped him immensly as they knew how to block for him. So yes Ben had zero to do with that
    But having that special QB or a legit one also helps Bell look good since that guy can pass him the ball something he didn't have with the putrid Jets.
    I don't remember hearing a thing about Bell while with the Jets...kind of odd if you ask me since he's a generational talent as you say.

    There's obviously the odd RB that doesn't need a good QB
    Heck look at Henry for the Titans
    Gurley BEFORE his knee acted up
    Elliott
    Barkley
    Those are the traditional east/west or north/south runners
    Bell IS NOT that type; he just needs more help with his style but that's what makes guys unique.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Who's a solid QB on your list
    Flacco?
    Rivers?
    (insert shit emoji here)

    Sure he had the one game with Brady but would they have maintained that...not sure as Brady was average at best towards the end of the year.

    Brees? He was starting to faulter too

    Mahomes would be the only guy I can say currently he'd look solid with.
    There's too many to name

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    I’m hoping we let Ben go and roll with Duck in 2020.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    I was born a Steelers fan. My dad is from Pittsburgh. Who AB is now and how Bell is producing in NY has nothing to do with this topic. AB was the most productive WR in the NFL for 5 or 6 seasons and a huge asset to our offense. Bell was arguably the best RB in that period as well. Neither of their production has been replaced. Now we are expecting a 40 year old Ben to carry this team to a Super Bowl with a shotty Oline and unproven skill players.
    Ben isn’t 40.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I’m hoping we let Ben go and roll with Duck in 2020.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Ben isn’t 40.
    I'm glad we're on the same page

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Bell’s production as a receiver was 90% Bell, 10% Ben. The dump offs became big plays because of Bell’s vision and moves.
    His drop off this past season was due to his missed year more so than the Jets O-line. He got fat.
    We got the best of him.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrancoLambert View Post
    Bell’s production as a receiver was 90% Bell, 10% Ben. The dump offs became big plays because of Bell’s vision and moves.
    His drop off this past season was due to his missed year more so than the Jets O-line. He got fat.
    We got the best of him.
    Yup, Bell was #1 in NFL history in yards gained from scrimmage in the first 4 years in the NFL according to PFF. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...er-in-the-nfl/ Steelers got his best years. Or should I say Ben got him all those yards.

    SEASONS G YARDS FROM SCRIMMAGE YFS/G
    1 Le’Veon Bell 2013-16 45 5,782 128.5
    2 Edgerrin James 1999-02 52 6,640 127.7
    3 Eric Dickerson 1983-86 62 7,842 126.5
    4 LaDainian Tomlinson 2001-04 63 7,921 125.7
    5 Terrell Davis 1995-98 61 7,594 124.5
    6 Marcus Allen 1982-85 57 6,942 121.8
    7 Billy Sims 1980-83 52 6,252 120.2
    8 Ricky Williams 1999-02 54 6,437 119.2
    9 Arian Foster 2009-12 51 6,052 118.7
    10 Clinton Portis 2002-05 60 7,059 117.7
    11 Jim Brown 1957-60 48 5,642 117.5
    12 Adrian Peterson 2007-10 61 6,952 114.0
    13 Jamal Lewis 2000-04 60 6,822 113.7
    14 Chuck Foreman 1973-76 53 6,009 113.4
    15 Walter Payton 1975-78 57 6,427 112.8

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Ben won 2 SBs without AB or Bell and none with them. I would say he did better with Nate Washington, Santonio, Hines, Jerome and Fast Willie Parker.

    As for RBs who could run behind a bad line, I will add Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell just to name a few.

    Bell played for a pretty good team with lots of weapons and did well while he was here but he certainly sucked with the J.E.T.S.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    Ben won 2 SBs without AB or Bell and none with them. I would say he did better with Nate Washington, Santonio, Hines, Jerome and Fast Willie Parker.

    As for RBs who could run behind a bad line, I will add Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell just to name a few.

    Bell played for a pretty good team with lots of weapons and did well while he was here but he certainly sucked with the J.E.T.S.
    Cedrick Wilson.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    Ben won 2 SBs without AB or Bell and none with them. I would say he did better with Nate Washington, Santonio, Hines, Jerome and Fast Willie Parker.

    As for RBs who could run behind a bad line, I will add Walter Payton, Gale Sayers, OJ Simpson, Earl Campbell just to name a few.

    Bell played for a pretty good team with lots of weapons and did well while he was here but he certainly sucked with the J.E.T.S.
    All of those RBS you mentioned were before my time, but I'll take your word for it. You would say he did better because he has 2 rings to show for it, but from a statistical standpoint, his numbers were better with Brown, Bryant, Bell, and even Mike Wallace. You put the 2008 defense on some of those teams and we might have 2 more rings.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    All of those RBS you mentioned were before my time, but I'll take your word for it. You would say he did better because he has 2 rings to show for it, but from a statistical standpoint, his numbers were better with Brown, Bryant, Bell, and even Mike Wallace. You put the 2008 defense on some of those teams and we might have 2 more rings.
    Many like to point out that Ben won 2 SB titles all by himself(and without any other players they don't like). The fact that there were 52 other guys on those rosters doesn't matter.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    I just don't understand why some here just can't concede that Ben, Bell, and AB were all great players.

    Why do some look at Bell and say he sucks because he went to the Jets? He was great while he was here. What he did is undeniable.

    AB was fantastic while here. He was a head case and it all went sideways at the end, but he was a great player.

    Ben has also been a great player here for a long time.

    They all played together, but never won a championship. It doesn't mean they all weren't great. It just worked out that way for a variety of reasons. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that they weren't as good as they really were because of the circumstances when they left.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    I'm glad we're on the same page
    Lol

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    Now we are expecting a 40 year old Ben to carry this team to a Super Bowl with a shotty Oline and unproven skill players.
    Ben is 37 years old and will turn 38 next month, but hey why let facts get in the way of your agenda right?

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by pczach View Post
    I just don't understand why some here just can't concede that Ben, Bell, and AB were all great players.

    Why do some look at Bell and say he sucks because he went to the Jets? He was great while he was here. What he did is undeniable.

    AB was fantastic while here. He was a head case and it all went sideways at the end, but he was a great player.

    Ben has also been a great player here for a long time.

    They all played together, but never won a championship. It doesn't mean they all weren't great. It just worked out that way for a variety of reasons. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that they weren't as good as they really were because of the circumstances when they left.
    I think you answered your own question. If a guy retires in B&G, he is a great player. If he leaves the Steelers to be better compensated on the open market, he is hated and all that he did in a Steelers uniform was due to "the system", "the coaching", "players still in B&G that made them what they are".

    I personally don't begrudge anybody that leaves one job for another where they are better paid or have better opportunity. I think it may happen to Hargrave, Finney and others this season, as it did for Jesse James and Chris Hubbard last season and Emannuel Sanders several years ago. For some, their attitude as a fan is more important than common sense or objectivity.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Many like to point out that Ben won 2 SB titles all by himself(and without any other players they don't like). The fact that there were 52 other guys on those rosters doesn't matter.
    Apparently some take what is written way to literal.

    My point was that he had better results with players who didn't put up the astronomical stats that AB and Bell did. Stats are nice but they don't win SBs. "Stats are for losers" - Chuck Noll

    Apparently AB was a HUGE distraction after he got his 1st big contract, to the point where he got Troy mad and that's not easy to do.

    https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a...-back-in-2012/

    I question how badly did Bell want to get away from Pittsburgh when he accepted a contract with the jets that was only marginally better than what we had offered. His own agent suggested to him to sing but he didn't listen.

    Bell and AB had great statistical seasons with us. Bell hasn't done as well with the jets and AB is out of the league.

    Conner did pretty good with Ben the year that Bell held out and we have yet to really see what Ben can do since AB left.
    Last edited by Butch; 02-14-2020 at 06:38 AM.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by RunNGun View Post
    All of those RBS you mentioned were before my time, but I'll take your word for it. You would say he did better because he has 2 rings to show for it, but from a statistical standpoint, his numbers were better with Brown, Bryant, Bell, and even Mike Wallace. You put the 2008 defense on some of those teams and we might have 2 more rings.
    You don't have to take my word for it there is plenty of stuff on the internet about all of them.

    As for the stats that was addressed in my previous post.

    The 2008 D was a Great D, but would they have been as good with Tommy Gun, Landry Jones or Mason Rudolph leading the offense? You yourself have stated that D will only take you so far. I am not saying they couldn't have won with another QB but looking at who the Steelers have had on their roster Ben sure seems to be a lot better than the other choices.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think you answered your own question. If a guy retires in B&G, he is a great player. If he leaves the Steelers to be better compensated on the open market, he is hated and all that he did in a Steelers uniform was due to "the system", "the coaching", "players still in B&G that made them what they are".

    I personally don't begrudge anybody that leaves one job for another where they are better paid or have better opportunity. I think it may happen to Hargrave, Finney and others this season, as it did for Jesse James and Chris Hubbard last season and Emannuel Sanders several years ago. For some, their attitude as a fan is more important than common sense or objectivity.
    This is BS as well.

    I have stated this before in long past threads, but I will mention it again. I have no problem with someone like Plexico leaving for greener pastures. He was competing against Hines and was not going to get the money he wanted. He played well for us and for the Giants. There are others as well Nate Washington, and Chris Hope or even Jesse James that left without any issues. I will go so far to say I didn't have a problem when James Harrison left to play for the Bengals, he even tried to come back to the Steelers before he signed with the Bengals, but they turned him down.

    No the point is more of who was more critical to the team. While some will argue that Ben had better weapons with Bell and AB because stats, all those stats never lead to a SB victory. Ben on the other hand did win it all with players who had lesser stats. NOTE: Ben did not win it all by himself he had others that did their part as well.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Why so much discussion about ONE player? Ben is simply just 1.89% of the team. He was no more important to winning Super Bowls than Russell Stuvaints (2005) or Jeremy Parquet (2008).

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Plus...

    Ben was seen at a WVU basketball game wearing the Mountaineer’s coonskin cap. Ben should be in the gym!!! Or, watching tape!!! Or, rehabbing!!! Anything but acting like JuJu. Argh!!!

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    I think you answered your own question. If a guy retires in B&G, he is a great player. If he leaves the Steelers to be better compensated on the open market, he is hated and all that he did in a Steelers uniform was due to "the system", "the coaching", "players still in B&G that made them what they are".

    I personally don't begrudge anybody that leaves one job for another where they are better paid or have better opportunity. I think it may happen to Hargrave, Finney and others this season, as it did for Jesse James and Chris Hubbard last season and Emannuel Sanders several years ago. For some, their attitude as a fan is more important than common sense or objectivity.
    I think you have to admit that AB, Bell and Harrison all left differently than the regular free agent process. They each forced their ways out by being distractions. That’s why there’s animosity, not just because they left for greener pastures.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch View Post
    His own agent suggested to him to sing but he didn't listen.

    Please!! No more singing by Bell!!

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Why so much discussion about ONE player? Ben is simply just 1.89% of the team. He was no more important to winning Super Bowls than Russell Stuvaints (2005) or Jeremy Parquet (2008).
    Like birds who migrate or bears who hibernate this is just natures way of letting us know the off season has arrived. Keep your head up and remember that every day we get 1 day closer to the start of next year.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Please!! No more singing by Bell!![/COLOR]
    ROFLMAO Good catch and couldn't agree more.

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I think you have to admit that AB, Bell and Harrison all left differently than the regular free agent process. They each forced their ways out by being distractions. That’s why there’s animosity, not just because they left for greener pastures.
    -Bell wanted a large contract and no NFL player that is due a big payday likes the idea of playing on a 1 year franchise tag where he can be hurt with zero security. I have no problem with Bell moving on because he thought he was worth more than Steelers would pay.

    -Harrison was signed to play football as a situational pass rusher and Tomlin was letting him rot on the sidelines. If I was hired at a job to manage a team, but wasn't given the opportunity to do that, I would look for another company to work for. I have no problem with him leaving. (fans are just butt hurt that he went to the Patriots)

    -AB wasn't a mentally stable guy at some point, or maybe always. He was always being considered with Julio Jones as the best WR in the game for a few years in a row. The rift that was private went public when he got called out and then it went off the rails. If fans wanna cry about that one, I can agree with that case. I still don't diminish that he was one of the best WR's of the era and whenever he was injured, the Steelers struggled to find a WR on the team that could get open in games.

  30. #90
    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: Do we want Ben back?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    -Bell wanted a large contract and no NFL player that is due a big payday likes the idea of playing on a 1 year franchise tag where he can be hurt with zero security. I have no problem with Bell moving on because he thought he was worth more than Steelers would pay.
    Bell held out on his team for a year before he left. Ask his teammates how they felt about it. Oh wait, no need to because they told us already.

    -Harrison was signed to play football as a situational pass rusher and Tomlin was letting him rot on the sidelines. If I was hired at a job to manage a team, but wasn't given the opportunity to do that, I would look for another company to work for. I have no problem with him leaving. (fans are just butt hurt that he went to the Patriots)
    Harrison snored in position meetings and left the stadium during games. I have a problem with that.

    -AB wasn't a mentally stable guy at some point, or maybe always. He was always being considered with Julio Jones as the best WR in the game for a few years in a row. The rift that was private went public when he got called out and then it went off the rails. If fans wanna cry about that one, I can agree with that case. I still don't diminish that he was one of the best WR's of the era and whenever he was injured, the Steelers struggled to find a WR on the team that could get open in games.
    He was a great receiver indeed. He ended up being a cancer. There is NOTHING in his departure that is defensible.

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