I guess the SB stuff puts him in. But the HOF is going to have to seriously contend with the issue of raw stats. Otherwise, Carson Palmer, Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford, and Matt Ryan need to be let in as well. Those guys are going to finish in the same realm as Eli just (most likely) without the SB stuff.Originally Posted by DesertSteel
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It's just evolution. This is not our grandfather's NFL. Honestly, some of the QBs from the 70's who are in are questionable as well (e.g., Joe Namath). At least it's not as lame as the NBA HOF.
Good points. I really don't care either way about Eli. Personally, I wouldn't vote for him. But I also wouldn't be shocked or surprised if he gets in.
The evolution of the game point is fascinating to me. How should leagues/sports deal with that? 35 thousand passing yards used to be impressive. Now, not really. For awhile, 1000 yard rushing seasons were growing on trees. Now, not so much (again). So what are HOF's to do with all these stats? Especially as players are having longer and healthier careers?
Preamble:
Names listed here are not ME personally yes I'm typing them but I'm also using logic on the vast majority and what the media would say
Brady
Brees
Ben
Rodgers - I can't resist but still overrated lol
Wilson
Newton - Injury prone but he'd still get picked
Peyton
Luck - again injury prone
Matt Ryan - blah
Rivers - sure if you DON'T want to make the playoffs regularly and NOT sniff a Super Bowl lol
Romo? - I liked him personally but just flopped
Maybe a few outliers:
Jay Cutler?
Zach Mettenberger?
Aaron Brooks?
Tim Rattay?
That last crop is PRIMO! haha
- - - Updated - - -
Should be based on the ERA as they've all been different and unique.
Still the greatest season by a QB in NFL history is Marino in '84
LT for a RB in 2006
All of these guys started games in the last 20 years that I would RATHER have to start an imaginary NFL franchise than Eli:
Favre
Peyton
Brady
Brees
Roethlisberger
Rodgers
Luck
Wilson
Mahomes
Watson
Wentz
Rivers
Ryan
Then there is a clump of guys like Eli, Carson Palmer, Alex Smith, McNabb, Stafford, etc that you can make arguments for.
I mean that is 12-15 guys I can rattle off that I would put under center before Eli. In just his era.
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Eli gets into the HoF because of his 2 SB wins and MVPs plus doing it for a NY team adding to that over the "Legacy" edition Patriots multiplied by the name Manning. He's in.
Also consider that winning a SuperBowl carries it's own weight. Winning SuperBowl MVP carries weight(twice). He's in.
Let the debate continue forever. He's in.
Eli was a big factor in getting to and winning those Super Bowls. The personnel that was on the 2008 and 2012 defenses were almost totally different players. The one consistent on those rosters was Eli. He definitely gets short changed when it comes to those playoff runs.
As far as telling the story of the NFL, it can’t be told without Eli and the Giants beating the 18-0 Patriots. Not only one time but he beat Brady twice. I guess you could tell the story without that part but it’s be a big omission.
Two decades is a pretty big time period. But I’d most likely take the guys with the most passing yardage, TDs, Super Bowls. Eli would be on the list, probably towards the bottom but that doesn’t mean he’s not Hall of Fame and it doesn’t mean the guy below or above him on that list isn’t HOF worthy. I mean if Bob Griese and Joe Namath are in there, Eli deserves to be in...easily.
That’s about all I would take over Eli. Seven of which I’d easily put into the Hall of Fame and the remainder pending or debatable IMO.
So is Roethlisberger not a Hall of Famer because there may be 5,6,7 players you’d take over him to start a franchise?
Ben gets in because he can and was viewed as one of the top 5-6 at his position during much of his career.
I wouldn't put Eli in the top 10 at any point.
One of his two signature plays was a horrible throw that gets picked or dropped 9/10 times.
I'm sure I just have a blindspot on this. But I just think Eli kinda sucks. He has big numbers because he started an incredible amount of games.
He's a .500 QB.
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With regard to stats inflation, the NYT article to which I linked yesterday said around 6-8 HOF QBs have been playing at any one time - that metric takes into account how Bart Starr and Bob Griese are HOF QBs while Matt Ryan and Matthew Stafford will not be
Unless the argument is the QB position is more important now due to it being a pass first league and more QBs from the current pass happy era should be in Canton, that is a good way to address why borderline candidates such as Eli (a .500 QB with two rings) and Rivers (a 55% winning record with no Super Bowl appearances) are not automatic admissions despite their passing stats
He totally turned out to be a .500 QB and he did it with some shitty teams. Never really had a good team with eat receivers. I mean OBJ was probably the best he had, but at a time where the Giants were trash for the most part.
I get where your coming from and I’m not saying you are wrong, I just view this as a whole and who is in and who isn’t and based on that, I think Eli gets in.
Let’s ask this question though: If you could spend a first round pick on a guy knowing that he’s gonna have the exact same results as Eli when Ben retires versus an unknown, would you take the known results?
Tough question. But I'd take the unknown. I honestly think if Elii wasn't named "Manning" but, say "Flacco" or "Smith" or "Dalton", he would've been replaced 3-5 years ago.
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Welcome to an opinion debate. Eli played on a .500 team, he was not a .500 QB. Think about how hard it is to just get to the SB. How hard is it to win the SB. How hard to win MVP of the SB. How hard to beat the Patriots in the SB. Eli did that TWICE! What makes Eli ELIgible to me is the way his successes were earned. Everyone remembers the helmet catch yet gloss over the fact that Eli had to Houdini out of a sure sack situation, reposition and reset just to make that throw. Opinion debate conclusion, I think Eli will be a first ballot HoFer.
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You may very well be right that Eli should have retired a couple years ago. That doesn't negate his deserving to be in the Hall, IMO. Stats may be similar to Flacco but he was no "Moonball Joe". And I believe if you replace Dalton with Manning the Bengals are a very different story over the last 16 years. And Alex Smith could not have done what Eli did no matter how long he played. Anyway, fun debate.
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Jim Plunkett is a .500 QB with two rings on a Raiders team that stomped a 1983 Washington team that going into that Super Bowl was the defending Super Bowl champ and being discussed as one of the great teams of all time. Not a chance Plunkett gets in.
As far as not being a .500 QB but playing on a .500 team, your record is what it is
The years of mediocrity after the 2 Lombardis cannot be discounted - cannot claim credit for winning when it was a team effort but deflect blame for the losing
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Not comparing Eli to Plunkett. Eli will get in because of what Eli did himself, in addition to being a Manning. IF Eli does not get in his 1st year of eligibility I will be shocked. Lots of ex-players with similar stats out there. Some are in and some are not. The voters have a lot to do with that. They will vote Eli in.
If he retired three years ago, his record would be 108-91 and he’d still be around 11-12 in all-time passing. Is a .543 record coupled with 2 SBs and 2 MVPs in those games enough to get him in then?
I’m not sure the Mara’s replace him even with his name not being Manning. They’re pretty loyal...very similar to the Rooney’s.
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I agree he will get in.
Eli is not undeserving but the HOF voting process is often a popularity contest and in part contingent on who got publicity during and after their careers (see, e.g., the two coaches voted in as part of the Centennial Class over other worthy candidates being on pregame shows since they retired, which kept them in the public eye and allowed the NFL to have two nice photo ops during the playoffs broadcasts)
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I disagree on the name, Manning. In fact, I think that will be a hurdle rather than a boost. He's going to be weighed against his brother and his father, and if he doesn't come close to measuring up, it's gone to be difficult for him to get in. I think the fact that he made it to two SBs and beat the Pats* in both, one of which with two throws in the last seconds of the game will be what seals the deal for him.
You all raise some really good points. I do think Eli will get in. Personally, I'm just kinda of the belief that it should be incredibly difficult to get into the Hall. For instance, I wouldn't put Hines Ward in.
I agree with you on the difficulty aspect. It’s why I don’t think players like Joe Namath, Bob Griese, Terrell Davis, etc. don’t belong. But if those guys can get in, then Eli and Hines Ward should get in. I think it will take a lot of time but I think Hines gets in at some point. Again, based on the fact of the previous members and their accomplishments.
I’m not sure I would put Swann in. He had some beautiful catches, but Ward was the bigger work horse. Hell they had a rule named after him. I’m not disagreeing with you, just saying how by “ generation “ the votes go. Faneca should have been in from the start. Best pulling guard.....maybe ever. But that’s just me.
Obviously Swann is already in....ya’ll know what I meant.
You had an earlier post about Eli's record so I'm only taking the 2004 class along with their current numbers as they stand
Eli:
Regular season he was 117-117
Playoffs 8-4 BUT 1 and done 4 times
2 Super Bowls
Numbers wise:
Yards - 57,023
TDs - 366
Picks - 244
Career Completion % - 60.3
Rivers:
Reg Season - 123-101
Playoffs - 5-6
Numbers:
Yards - 59, 271
TDs - 397
Picks - 198
Completion % - 64.7
Ben:
Reg Season - 144-71-1
Playoffs - 13-8
2 Super Bowls and ripped off on an MVP in XLIII
Numbers:
Yards - 56,545
TDs - 363
Picks - 191
Completion % - 64.3
Anyway I used the bare bones unless people want more haha
Based on what I know and have seen
Ben is a LOCK
Eli is debatable yet I think he will get in purely on his name and the 2 magical runs
Rivers should never make it. Sure numbers are great but most have been during some rather bad years and no deep playoff runs.
Ben was one and done 4 times in the playoffs as well. Had more victories/losses in playoffs though.
He's also been to the playoffs far more...his record speaks to that.
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Might have been doing it for the Giants
Here’s something I didn’t know: Ben Roethlisberger’s name was actually on the Giants’ draft card on April 24, 2004, as the team hit the clock with the fourth pick coming up.
I did know Roethlisberger was going to be the pick if the Giants couldn’t get Ole Miss QB Eli Manning, as has been widely discussed over the last 16 years. But I wasn’t aware it was that close to actually going down. And it was right on the edge of happening that afternoon because, as the Cardinals took Larry Fitzgerald at three and the Giants’ turn came, the Chargers, who took Manning first overall, had gone totally radio silent on then New York GM Ernie Accorsi....
Earlier in the week, then Chargers GM A.J. Smith promised Accorsi that he’d call him the day before the draft. Despite rumblings that Manning wanted no part of San Diego, Friday came and went without a call. So Accorsi figured it was over. He was moving forward. But he’d at least leave the door open, so instead of just turning the card in as the clock started, as the Giants routinely had in the past, he chose to wait....
“He called me and asked for Osi again, and we said no,” Accorsi said on Saturday afternoon. “Then he said, ‘Would you give me next year’s No. 1?’ Well, we’d already talked about that, and decided we’d be willing to do it. I said yes, and we both called into [NFL exec] Joel Bussert. He had to get both of us on the phone at the same time, he literally had a phone on each ear, and the clock was running out.”
With under a minute to go, Bussert said the magic words to both GMs: We have a trade.
https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/01/27/su...i-manning-mmqb
Andy Dalton:
Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs, you kiddin me? PLAYOFFS!!??? I Just hope we can win a game!
That's what I like to call Aaron Rodgers Syndrome.
Give all the credit in the world to him or X QB and then when they lose...oh ummm hmmmm ummmm yyyeeeaaahhhhh who do we blame now?
Athletes always thank god for winning, but never blame him for losing. I'm still waiting for that to happen cause it'd be funny as hell
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3 Reel Treasure Slots Champion!I think that kid from Buffalo, Steven Johnson, blamed God one time because he dropped a game winning TD.
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