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Thread: Why so worried about the QB?

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Why so worried about the QB?

    Ben Roethlisberger 2018 stats:
    Career high completions with 452 on 675 attempts for a completion% of 67.0%(3rd highest in his career) and over 5000(5129 career high) yards.

    2019 injury: I can't find any article that tells exactly what the elbow injury was. The best I could find talked about the recovery being similar to recovering from Tommy John surgery. It was explained that a full recovery should be expected. With baseball pitchers recovery takes 12 to 18 months, but because QBs do not throw at full force and/or velocity every throw Ben's recovery should be shorter. Everyone in every article I read said it would be up to the doctors when Ben can actually return.

    This information from many sources(look it up yourselves, I am not pasting all of them here) tells me that Ben IS expected to make a full recovery and that it would be out of the norm if he did not. The only question remaining is WHEN.

    Ben has also been quoted that he fully plans to fulfill his recent contract extension through the 2021 season. So that means he does not plan to retire at this time.

    Ben turns 38 this March and he will be starting his 17th season. That is OLD for pro athletes. There does come a time in every star athlete's career where the body just simply cannot do the things it has always done. This phenomenon has also been discussed at length by athletes themselves, sports writers, analysts, coaches, just about everyone has put in their 2cents on the subject. While every athlete is both similar and unique at the same time there will be a change of how they play the game. And for all of them it goes from playing from the neck down with athleticism and skills to playing from the neck up with experience and wisdom. This is why I have confidence that even a partial Ben is going to be good enough in 2020 to keep this team competitive.


    Adam Schefter
    @AdamSchefter





    Ben Roethlisberger’s two-year extension is worth $68 million, and includes a $37.5 million signing bonus and an additional $30 million in injury guarantees, per source. Roethlisberger had one year at $12 millon left - and now has three at $80 million - $67.5 gtd.





    Based on this it looks like Ben's guaranteed all but $12.5M of the $80M already. How does it benefit the Steelers to not bring Ben back and count on him to be the starter for the next 2 seasons? Talent-wise and money-wise Ben makes sense.








  2. #2
    Senior Member Array title="Edman has a reputation beyond repute">

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Because 2018 Ben despite the statistics was actually at his worst taking care of the football, and the Steelers still missed the playoffs. Near the end of that season and the beginning of 2019 saw glaring decline in his play.

    As far as bringing him back, the Steelers have no choice regardless. They’re locked into a contract with him. Ben will be the second highest paid quarterback in the league in 2020. The second-highest QB contract for a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in two consecutive years, and hasn’t won a playoff game in three. That is a massive indictment on the contract. Anything less than “productive” for Ben in 2020 will be a bad look.

    The Steelers hitched their wagon to Ben wether he succeeds or not. They cannot rebuild or retool. They can only tread and hope Ben plays above level in 2020.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Because 2018 Ben despite the statistics was actually at his worst taking care of the football, and the Steelers still missed the playoffs. Near the end of that season and the beginning of 2019 saw glaring decline in his play.

    As far as bringing him back, the Steelers have no choice regardless. They’re locked into a contract with him. Ben will be the second highest paid quarterback in the league in 2020. The second-highest QB contract for a team that hasn’t made the playoffs in two consecutive years, and hasn’t won a playoff game in three. That is a massive indictment on the contract. Anything less than “productive” for Ben in 2020 will be a bad look.

    The Steelers hitched their wagon to Ben wether he succeeds or not. They cannot rebuild or retool. They can only tread and hope Ben plays above level in 2020.

    The bolded part simply is not true. Ben had a 67% completion rate. 3rd highest of his career. His INT% was 2.4, 3rd lowest of his career.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The bolded part simply is not true. Ben had a 67% completion rate. 3rd highest of his career. His INT% was 2.4, 3rd lowest of his career.
    You should know better. Facts, numbers, evidence, and sometimes reality have no place in evaluations of the Pittsburgh Steelers. It's all about how you feel about things. That and the angrier you are on the internet, the better man you become.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You should know better. Facts, numbers, evidence, and sometimes reality have no place in evaluations of the Pittsburgh Steelers. It's all about how you feel about things. That and the angrier you are on the internet, the better man you become.
    I have found zero reason to worry about Ben's recovery. If somebody has found something then this is the thread to share that something. Ben's decline as a QB has been greatly exaggerated as his numbers prove. When exactly did this fall off a cliff happen? But reading posts on this forum you'd think he was playing like 2015 Peyton Manning. It simply isn't true. So what is the real fear I wonder?

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You should know better. Facts, numbers, evidence, and sometimes reality have no place in evaluations of the Pittsburgh Steelers. It's all about how you feel about things. That and the angrier you are on the internet, the better man you become.


    You see, if your narrative is that Ben sucks, you have to bang on him no matter what the facts say. Even if you have to make shit up or lie through your teeth about everything you say. I has to be done. Convincing everyone that you are right, even though you are wrong...is much more important.

    People like this just drive me crazy. They will flat out lie about anything to try to prove a false narrative.

    Remember, this is the guy that said this team would have been no better if Ben were healthy. They would be exactly the same team even if he played.

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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    I’d be worried about any QB having elbow surgery. As far as I’m concerned, medicine peaked with the use of leeches.

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    Old School Misfit Array title="silver & black has a reputation beyond repute"> silver & black's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    I usualy stay out of "your" part of this forum, but I have to say that Ben is a very good QB. I will also say that Father Time never loses. I think the Steelers need to seriously start the process of finding his successor..... right now. I hope I haven't overstepped my place on this forum.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    I usualy stay out of "your" part of this forum, but I have to say that Ben is a very good QB. I will also say that Father Time never loses. I think the Steelers need to seriously start the process of finding his successor..... right now. I hope I haven't overstepped my place on this forum.
    ^^THIS^^

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by silver & black View Post
    I usualy stay out of "your" part of this forum, but I have to say that Ben is a very good QB. I will also say that Father Time never loses. I think the Steelers need to seriously start the process of finding his successor..... right now. I hope I haven't overstepped my place on this forum.
    You are fine! The common denominator is we are all football fans and breathe the same air! Sorry had to go into my JFK speech.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Maybe a lot of you bashing on Ben forgot 2018, but we would have had a bye if we had a “healthy” Boz, period. Recall that we also lost our probowl RB from stupidity and our probowl WR went crazy about mid season. I am not sure how any of that was Ben’s fault, especially when he had one of his best seasons despite that all happening.

  12. #12

    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Because 2018 Ben despite the statistics was actually at his worst taking care of the football, .
    Complete myth. It's what happens when stats are cherry-picked (not you, but those in the media who were driving the narrative about Roethlisberger's INTs). In truth, it was tied for his fifth best season taking care of the football with a 2.4 percent INT ratio. Moreover, in the two games he played this year, his ratio was 1.6 percent.

    As far as league-wide goes, he was tied for 18th last year. Not great, but not horrible. It's average.


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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    The fact that Ben struggled in limited action last year is not a good sign. His completion %, yards per attempt, and QBR were all worse than the two QBs everyone wants tarred, feathered and placed on the first flight out of Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he is worse than the other two (like some will claim) and he does give them a better chance based on ability and experience winning but people assuming Ben will be savior of the offense (especially coming off elbow surgery at 38 and especially without giving him more help at o-line and receiving options) need to pump the breaks

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2019.htm

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    I think the Steelers need to zero in on the 2021 draft and how they are going to get into a position to pick Trevor Lawrence. If Ben plays 20 and 21 it would give Lawrence a year with Ben, Mason and whoever else we still have on the QB roster.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    ^^THIS^^
    x2

    Father Time is undefeated. With or without surgery.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    x2

    Father Time is undefeated. With or without surgery.
    Tell me about it. He keeps knocking on my door and I keep telling him I'm not home.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoes View Post
    Tell me about it. He keeps knocking on my door and I keep telling him I'm not home.
    Truth!

    ...to get back to the topic of this thread. I'm not at all "worried" about the QB situation. I know Father Time is knocking on Ben's door and has for a couple seasons now, so the Steelers will have to find a new QB in a couple seasons for sure, if not sooner. Its like the sun going down, its gonna happen so no reason to worry about it.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    The fact that Ben struggled in limited action last year is not a good sign. His completion %, yards per attempt, and QBR were all worse than the two QBs everyone wants tarred, feathered and placed on the first flight out of Pittsburgh. I'm not saying he is worse than the other two (like some will claim) and he does give them a better chance based on ability and experience winning but people assuming Ben will be savior of the offense (especially coming off elbow surgery at 38 and especially without giving him more help at o-line and receiving options) need to pump the breaks

    https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/pit/2019.htm
    If you look at our Def for that exact same time frame they were terrible also . . .

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    This all comes down to the OP's point ... recovery. If Ben can recover we will trend upwards next season, if he can't we are in deep shit with the two arms we have left. Anyone that argues differently wasn't watching this season, our 8 wins came mostly on the back of our defense, that was obvious, so if we are forced to start next year with Rudolph or Duck at QB then we are as I said above, in deep shit. Hopefully if this scenario DOES come true there are still a few veteran arms out there (Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Case Keenum, etc...) to bridge us to a Ben replacement or give Ben time to heal if he still needs it. From being a baseball fan I know that most players that go through TJ surgeries usually takes 1-2 seasons to recover fully. Yes Ben isn't trying to throw 99 mph (only Donovan McNabb did that) but he's still throwing so we may not see a healthy Ben until 2021 if he continues to play that long.

    Only time will tell but if Ben isn't throwing by the draft we need to start re-thinking next year's plan.

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    Senior Member Array title="Edman has a reputation beyond repute">

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Complete myth. It's what happens when stats are cherry-picked (not you, but those in the media who were driving the narrative about Roethlisberger's INTs). In truth, it was tied for his fifth best season taking care of the football with a 2.4 percent INT ratio. Moreover, in the two games he played this year, his ratio was 1.6 percent.

    As far as league-wide goes, he was tied for 18th last year. Not great, but not horrible. It's average.
    You don't lead the league in interceptions by "taking care of the football".

    Right now the big narrative now is that getting Ben back makes the Steelers a contender again, even though the team has far greater issues beyond Ben that I beleive even he can't fix. So it wasn't in my best interest to upset that narrative.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorhead View Post
    Maybe a lot of you bashing on Ben forgot 2018, but we would have had a bye if we had a “healthy” Boz, period. Recall that we also lost our probowl RB from stupidity and our probowl WR went crazy about mid season. I am not sure how any of that was Ben’s fault, especially when he had one of his best seasons despite that all happening.
    This is right on. If we had a healthy Ben this year, with this defensive support and even with the offense as is, we would be getting ready for next weekend.

    only thing is, as I think Mojouw said once, if we had a healthy Ben, we may not have been able to acquire Minkah. Even then, with our relatively easy schedule I still think we’re a wild card.

    suffice to say, I’m really looking forward to next season

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    You don't lead the league in interceptions by "taking care of the football".

    Right now the big narrative now is that getting Ben back makes the Steelers a contender again, even though the team has far greater issues beyond Ben that I beleive even he can't fix. So it wasn't in my best interest to upset that narrative.
    You do understand that you are talking about a counting stat (total # of times a thing happened) and Craic is talking about a rate stat (frequency that the thing happened) and that they are telling us different things?

    Basically, the total number of times a thing happened last season (INTs) was the most but how often that event took place per # of passes thrown was LESS than most? Which means that the # of INTs should go down with the # of passes thrown...

    This isn't complex stuff. So either you are kinda dumb or just being intentionally dense in order to stick to your talking points. Either one is sort of annoying.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    You do understand that you are talking about a counting stat (total # of times a thing happened) and Craic is talking about a rate stat (frequency that the thing happened) and that they are telling us different things?

    Basically, the total number of times a thing happened last season (INTs) was the most but how often that event took place per # of passes thrown was LESS than most? Which means that the # of INTs should go down with the # of passes thrown...

    This isn't complex stuff. So either you are kinda dumb or just being intentionally dense in order to stick to your talking points. Either one is sort of annoying.
    Do people ask who threw the most TD passes in a season? Caught the most TD passes in a season? What RB had the most rushing TD's this season? OR.....

    Do they ask who threw the most TD passes per attempt? Caught the most TD passes per target? Who had the most rushing TD's per carry this season??

    The poster has a valid viewpoint as most will look at and discuss Jameis Winston's 30 INT's this season or Baker Mayfield's 21 INT's this season and not their INT's/attempt. IMO, the intelligence of the poster is not an issue, nor should it be questioned in this discussion. Its more a matter of what is the common viewpoint by most when discussing individual QB stats in public.

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    The Steelers looking for Ben's eventual replacement should not be based on his having elbow surgery is the main point of this thread. Father time is undefeated, sure. The sun will set in the west, ok. The football fact is Ben was coming off one of his better seasons when this injury happened. The exact nature of the injury and surgery are a mystery. The only conversation I can find is it being compared with Tommy John surgery in that it was ligament repair of some kind, and the estimated return to throwing from such a surgery. However there is no info available that is not speculation because we simply do not know. If on one hand it's just a matter of time to fully heal and that varies then at some point the concern level rises if Ben is not hitting benchmarks. But as of today there is nothing out there saying don't expect Ben back for opening weekend. Therefore all of the hand wringing is the very definition of living in your fears because it's all in your head right now. Do the Steelers need to find Ben's eventual replacement? YES, and start bringing in prospects now. Should Steelers fans be worried that Ben won't come back, and at or close to 100% old Ben? Absolutely not. Ben says he intends to be back and to play at full strength. That is where it stands today and that is all we know as far as I can find on the subject. IF anyone finds more info please post it here so we can all know.

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The Steelers looking for Ben's eventual replacement should not be based on his having elbow surgery is the main point of this thread. Father time is undefeated, sure. The sun will set in the west, ok. The football fact is Ben was coming off one of his better seasons when this injury happened. The exact nature of the injury and surgery are a mystery. The only conversation I can find is it being compared with Tommy John surgery in that it was ligament repair of some kind, and the estimated return to throwing from such a surgery. However there is no info available that is not speculation because we simply do not know. If on one hand it's just a matter of time to fully heal and that varies then at some point the concern level rises if Ben is not hitting benchmarks. But as of today there is nothing out there saying don't expect Ben back for opening weekend. Therefore all of the hand wringing is the very definition of living in your fears because it's all in your head right now. Do the Steelers need to find Ben's eventual replacement? YES, and start bringing in prospects now. Should Steelers fans be worried that Ben won't come back, and at or close to 100% old Ben? Absolutely not. Ben says he intends to be back and to play at full strength. That is where it stands today and that is all we know as far as I can find on the subject. IF anyone finds more info please post it here so we can all know.
    That was mentioned by wank reporter Chris Mortensen who then changed his story 4 hours later and said he slipped on a banana peel lol

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Do people ask who threw the most TD passes in a season? Caught the most TD passes in a season? What RB had the most rushing TD's this season? OR.....

    Do they ask who threw the most TD passes per attempt? Caught the most TD passes per target? Who had the most rushing TD's per carry this season??

    The poster has a valid viewpoint as most will look at and discuss Jameis Winston's 30 INT's this season or Baker Mayfield's 21 INT's this season and not their INT's/attempt. IMO, the intelligence of the poster is not an issue, nor should it be questioned in this discussion. Its more a matter of what is the common viewpoint by most when discussing individual QB stats in public.
    That would all be valid if the specific post he was/is objecting to, didn't already acknowledge all the points you are making and offer an alternative view point on the rate stat rather than the counting stat. Then responding with "NUHHHHH_UUUHHHHH! The MOST.....blah blah blah is not a counter to the argument being made but simply repeating the same talking points in every thread. It is silly and ridiculous.

    FWIW, people use both sets of stats to talk about football all the time. Counting stats tell you one thing and rate stats tell you another. Lumping them together and just shouting it over and over again despite attempts to discuss the difference is just being intentionally stubborn.

    The two sets of stats together tell the story that Ben R actually did a decent to above average job of taking care of the football in 2018. However, for reasons that the stats do not readily indicate, the team throw an unreasonable amount of passes in 2018. This, in turn, led to the high # of INTs. Therefore, one of the big questions for 2020 is bringing the total number of pass attempts down. Perhaps a continued resurgent defense, improvements in the running game, not playing from behind as much, a mandate from the HC to the OC and Ben R to stop passing so darn much, or some combination of all of these things can/will drive that. Who knows? But the argument that Ben R had some horrible season taking care of the ball in 2018 is just flat out untrue.

    And --- Edman, I'm sorry to have slighted your intelligence. It was uncalled for, not nice, not funny, and added nothing to the discussions on this forum.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    That would all be valid if the specific post he was/is objecting to, didn't already acknowledge all the points you are making and offer an alternative view point on the rate stat rather than the counting stat. Then responding with "NUHHHHH_UUUHHHHH! The MOST.....blah blah blah is not a counter to the argument being made but simply repeating the same talking points in every thread. It is silly and ridiculous.

    FWIW, people use both sets of stats to talk about football all the time. Counting stats tell you one thing and rate stats tell you another. Lumping them together and just shouting it over and over again despite attempts to discuss the difference is just being intentionally stubborn.

    The two sets of stats together tell the story that Ben R actually did a decent to above average job of taking care of the football in 2018. However, for reasons that the stats do not readily indicate, the team throw an unreasonable amount of passes in 2018. This, in turn, led to the high # of INTs. Therefore, one of the big questions for 2020 is bringing the total number of pass attempts down. Perhaps a continued resurgent defense, improvements in the running game, not playing from behind as much, a mandate from the HC to the OC and Ben R to stop passing so darn much, or some combination of all of these things can/will drive that. Who knows? But the argument that Ben R had some horrible season taking care of the ball in 2018 is just flat out untrue.

    And --- Edman, I'm sorry to have slighted your intelligence. It was uncalled for, not nice, not funny, and added nothing to the discussions on this forum.
    Are any of these "people that use both sets of stats to talk football all the time" appear on any of the major networks that carry NFL broadcasts, like NBC, Fox, NFL Network, ABC/ESPN, CBS, etc? I really don't recall in the 40 years I have been watching football that this is the norm, since it would probably confuse the audience and make the segment longer than planned.

    Maybe the advanced stat sites like Footballoutsiders or PFF, maybe even Cynthia Frelund on NFLN, but I don't think we will see or have seen this from mainstream football media, or the likes of Barstool, or draftniks like Kiper, McShay, Zeirline, Brugler, etc.

    I admit that I didn't get caught up in the back and forth bickering of a lot of this post, but if somebody says Winston lead the NFL in INT's, I am just thinking total INT's....not INT's per attempt, Per completion, per target, etc.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Are any of these "people that use both sets of stats to talk football all the time" appear on any of the major networks that carry NFL broadcasts, like NBC, Fox, NFL Network, ABC/ESPN, CBS, etc? I really don't recall in the 40 years I have been watching football that this is the norm, since it would probably confuse the audience and make the segment longer than planned.

    Maybe the advanced stat sites like Footballoutsiders or PFF, maybe even Cynthia Frelund on NFLN, but I don't think we will see or have seen this from mainstream football media, or the likes of Barstool, or draftniks like Kiper, McShay, Zeirline, Brugler, etc.

    I admit that I didn't get caught up in the back and forth bickering of a lot of this post, but if somebody says Winston lead the NFL in INT's, I am just thinking total INT's....not INT's per attempt, Per completion, per target, etc.
    I have no idea what the major networks talk about. I don't watch any pre or post game because it is all nonsense. I understand that the most INTs leads the league. But the specific posting that I was calling out was in response to a post that pointed out "most" and "ratio" were different things and told different stories. A stubborn refusal to acknowledge the difference between those two things is difficult for me to understand.

    All that being said, much of this plays into a specific pet-peeve of mine. For instance, I can't stand it when people say the "INT to TD ratio for Quarterback X is 20:10". I mean I guess it is, but actually it is 2:1 - which, to my mind, is a simpler number and a far easier "stat" to compare. Let's fans say "Oh. That guy is throwing 2Xs as many TDs as INTs and this other guy is throwing an INT for every TD!" And it isn't like fans of sports can't understand averages or ratios. We talk about free throw %, batting average, save percentage, and ERA all the time.

  29. #29

    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    You don't lead the league in interceptions by "taking care of the football".
    Irrelevant. By that accounting method, Ben was top three this year protecting the ball since he only threw 1 INT, and Devlin Hodges was in the top 10 protecting the ball among all nonspot-starter QBs this year since he only threw 8 interceptions.

    Both of those are real stats. And yet, patently false. The same is true for the stat you're quoting. In other words, stats lie.

    Right now the big narrative now is that getting Ben back makes the Steelers a contender again, even though the team has far greater issues beyond Ben that I beleive even he can't fix. So it wasn't in my best interest to upset that narrative.
    What "far greater issues" would those be? WRs are part and parcel to the QB. The QB has to throw the WR open. Moreover, our WRs flashed several times. I don't think we have an issue there. RB? We're middle of the road. It'd be nice to get better, there it's not a dire need. TE? Same. Our O line regressed. But again, QB play helps the o line.

    In fairness, I'm not convinced Ben coming back immediately makes the Steelers contenders again either. I would say, Ben coming back and being the same player he was in 2018 makes the Steelers contenders. But I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude as to whether a 38-year-old is able to recover from surgery to his throwing elbow and play at a top NFL level again.


  30. #30
    Senior Member Array title="cubanstogie has a reputation beyond repute"> cubanstogie's Avatar

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    Re: Why so worried about the QB?

    How could you not be worried. Anyone who thinks Ben has been as good without AB and LB are lying to themselves. Its not Bens fault, a QB cant catch his own passes. Throw in the fact that the O line has been tops in league and this year had a big drop off , plus elbow surgery and age. It all adds up to being a little skeptical. Ben at 80 percent may be better than anyone on our roster, its not enough to win SB unless RB, TE and WR play picks up big time.

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