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Thread: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

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    Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.



    Ben's record as a starter is 144-71-1, or he has won 66.97% of his games with one tie.


    Tomlin's record without Ben starter is 10-8.


    Tomlin is just 3-6 in his last 9 playoff games and hasn't won a playoff game in 4 years. He is 8-7 overall in the playoffs with Ben, and most of those wins came early.

    Ben's playoff record is 13-8



    If you are wondering, Bill Cowher was 5-1 with Ben in the playoffs and is 12-9 overall in the playoffs and won games with O'Donnell, Tomzack, Stewart, and Maddox. The fact that Cowher coached teams could go 12-4, 11-5, 10-6, 11-5, 13-3, and 10-5-1 with quarterbacks like O'Donnell, Tomzack, Stewart, Miller and Maddox...guys, to be frank, were mediocre at best as a collective group is impressive. More impressive is he won playoff games with the handicap at quarterback. This shows Cowher's quality.


    Conclusion: This is Ben's team. He's the rising tide that lifts all boats. When Ben is out, Tomlin coached teams can not pick up the slack, nor can they make the playoffs. Even Ben's postseason winning percentage took a massive dive when Tomlin took over. Once Ben retires, whenever that date is, Steeler fans can forget about the playoffs until a top-tiered quarterback can be found. Tomlin isn't making the playoffs with an average Quarterback. Heck, he can't even do that lately with a healthy Ben Rothlisberger.


    Prediction: Tomlin will be back for the 2020 season. While the Steelers had too much talent to have a 6-10 type of season, the odds of the Steelers winning a playoff game with Tomlin seem slim..so come Mid January 2021, it will be five years since our last playoff win. FIVE YEARS. That's unacceptable to me. Maybe, just Maybe Art Rooney II will opt not to renew Tomlin's contract ( This way, he wasn't fired ).


    We could have had the following next season:


    The 49ers Defensive coordinator - Robert Saleh
    The Ravens offensive coordinator - Greg Roman
    Urban Meyer - OSU head coach
    Ron Rivera - Soon to be head coach of the Redskins

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Yeah. All the average or bottom tier QBs that are making and winning playoff games since the league went pass-wacky. When was that again? Oh. yeah, just about when Cowher and his power running offense retired and Tomlin transitioned the team to a pass dominant QB driven team. Weird. Not like the NFL experiences league wide trends as the game changes and evolves. Nope. Everything is always constant.

    Robert Saleh's defense last year wasn't really all that good. This year he has an embarrassment of riches along the front 7 and gets pressure with 4 or less at a near league leading rate. And, oddly enough, his defense now looks amazing. This would be like arguing that Keith Butler should be a head coach.

    Roman would be an intriguing choice for a creative offensive mind. Let's see what happens this playoff run before we all hyperventilate in anticipation of a Greg Roman led take-over of the league.

    Rivera is 13 games over .500 for his career and has a losing playoff record. So, at best, a push?

    At least pick from some better names. Here is a starter kit: https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2020/1...dates-carousel

    Every off-season around now, folks lose their minds over the "hot" coaching names. Last off-season, I thought Kitchens would have the Browns offense humming along in 2019. Many others in the larger NFL world thought that all those McVay clones would start having offenses putting up video game numbers. Heck a few years back, Patricia was supposed to put the Lions over the hump and he can not even replicate the success of Jim Caldwell.

    This is not to say that Tomlin should have a lifetime appointment or anything. But give the man some credit and let's not propose a series of retreads and flavors of the month to replace a winning coach.

    Urban Meyer's next NFL game will be his first. Won primarily at NCAA programs that we now generally suspect to be pretty dirty. What happens when he can't just cheat to get the best players?

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Cowher’s record in AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz - 1-4 with the one win a come from behind win over a mediocre Colts team that ended with the Steelers surviving a Hail Mary attempt in the end zone on the last play

    That is as sorry a record in championship games at home as that of any head coach I can recall

    Contrasting the playoff skills of Tomlin and Cowher may not be quite the slam dunk for your choice that you think it is

    But at least Cowher is not more popular with you for “political” reasons I guess

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    This is the funniest thread of 2020....on this board.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
    This is the funniest thread of 2020....on this board.
    Fans getting misty eyed about Cowher in order to vent about when will Tomlin be fired never ceases to be amusing given the fire that was thrown at Cowher at the time of his playoff flameouts

    Spoiler alert - both Cowher and Tomlin usually coached significantly flawed teams that rarely were expected to win the Super Bowl at the start of the playoffs

    But every Steelers season is supposed to be a return to the 70s

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Cowher had a top notch run game, top notch defense and an average to above average QB. There’s no Benny Snells or Duck Hodges Leading those teams. He was a good coach. Tomlin is a good coach. Chuck Noll was a good coach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Cowher’s record in AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz - 1-4 with the one win a come from behind win over a mediocre Colts team that ended with the Steelers surviving a Hail Mary attempt in the end zone on the last play

    That is as sorry a record in championship games at home as that of any head coach I can recall

    Contrasting the playoff skills of Tomlin and Cowher may not be quite the slam dunk for your choice that you think it is

    But at least Cowher is not more popular with you for “political” reasons I guess
    Cowher went to two super bowls, so if your math is right, he won an AFC championship game on the road. He also beat hoddie in the playoffs.


    But back to the point, Cowher was 5-1 with Ben.

    Tomlin is 8-7 with Ben.

    What do those numbers tell you?


    Cowher was 12-9 in the Playoffs. Tomlin 8-7

    What do those numbers tell you?


    And to cut to the chase, Tomlin won his super very early with a roster stacked of Cowher players. Barry Switzer and Seifert did the same thing, and by no means were they good coaches.

    The numbers aren't working out for you, are they " Atlanta " Dan? Hello Hawkman!

    Also Cowher went to the playoffs many times with mediocre to QB's. Without Ben, Tomlin might make the playoffs once or twice in his tenure, but would never advance to an AFC Championship game. Like I said Tomlin is 10-8 in regular season games without Ben.

    No playoff wins for the past 4 years, 3-6 in the last nine playoff games — poor results based on the talent the Steelers have — Tomlin in a nut shell.

    Also somehow, I doubt Cowher coached teams lost as often to inferior sub .500 competition.

    As for politics, Cowher was wise enough to steer clear of them.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Someone enjoys starting threads...

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    herpy derpy CoWerZ PlaErz bETTa


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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Cowher went to the playoffs twice with Ben. Once going 1-1 and once going 4-0.

    Tomlin went 8 times. SB runs were 5-1 and that leaves non SB runs at 3-6.

    Also the Steelers last won two playoff games in 2016. That's less than 5 years.


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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Cowher’s record in AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz - 1-4 with the one win a come from behind win over a mediocre Colts team that ended with the Steelers surviving a Hail Mary attempt in the end zone on the last play

    That is as sorry a record in championship games at home as that of any head coach I can recall

    Contrasting the playoff skills of Tomlin and Cowher may not be quite the slam dunk for your choice that you think it is

    But at least Cowher is not more popular with you for “political” reasons I guess
    Yeah losing all those AFC Championship games to teams like Bellichick's Patriots and the late 90s Broncos was so awful. Better to go one-and-done and lose to the Tim Tebow led 8-8 Broncos and the Doug Marrone/Blake Bortles Jaguars.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Also the Steelers last won two playoff games in 2016. That's less than 5 years.


    Yea, I didn’t even bother trying to reply once I saw that “Cowher beat the hoodie in the playoffs” (he didn’t) and that “Cowher didn’t lose to sub .500 teams” (he did... both expansion teams).

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post


    Yea, I didn’t even bother trying to reply once I saw that “Cowher beat the hoodie in the playoffs” (he didn’t) and that “Cowher didn’t lose to sub .500 teams” (he did... both expansion teams).
    Yeah. I think this debate is about a hundred years old at this point. I laugh when I think about the rage posts on previous message boards about Cowher teams starting slow and dropping games to inferior teams. Fast forward and it's basically the same complaints.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Yeah. I think this debate is about a hundred years old at this point. I laugh when I think about the rage posts on previous message boards about Cowher teams starting slow and dropping games to inferior teams. Fast forward and it's basically the same complaints.
    KillCowher and IH8Cowher agree.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    The proof is in the pudding. The Steelers with a stellar offense under Tomlin couldn't win playoff games. The Steelers with a dominant defense and poor offense couldn't make the playoffs. No matter if you Love Mike Tomlin or dislike him the truth is the Steelers ( under Tomlin) cannot Win in the playoffs.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    The Steelers offense was never that stellar though. It had name value, but never lived up to expectations, not just in playoffs, but in regular games, against all levels of opposition. The defense was sometimes disappointing, but predictably so. The offense was, for the decade, the unit which was expected to carry the team. It did not do this consistently.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Six Rings View Post
    Cowher went to two super bowls, so if your math is right, he won an AFC championship game on the road. He also beat hoddie in the playoffs.
    And here's the issue in a nutshell. It's called nostalgia, and it's wrong.

    Cowher's playoff record against Bellicheat (They met only twice in the playoffs):

    2001 season: AFCCG. Lost 24-17.
    2004 season: AFCCG. Lost 41-27.

    Cowher's regular season record against Bellicheat

    2002 Season, Week 1. Lost 30-14
    2004 Season, Week 8. Won 34-20
    2005 Season, Week 3. Lost 23-20

    That is a combined 1-4 against the Pats* with zero wins in the playoffs.

    And, to cut to the chase, most of Cowher's playoff wins came with the roster Noll built. In fact, once he lost that roster, he only went to the playoffs four times out of the next 8 years.

    Build a regular season champion that can't win the big games because he refuses to change his philosophy - Cowher in a nutshell. (Oh, and he was forced to draft Ben. Otherwise, it'd be another AFCCG loss in 2005).

    We can do this all day, but in short, these comparisons are useless.


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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Ok....here is one for you, and if message boards social media was available how soon would you be calling for Noll’s ouster.

    Last twelve years as coach. 7 winning seasons. 4 playoff appearances. 2-4 in those playoffs. When would cut Noll loose?

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Here's a fun one. Since his only SB, this coach is 1-2 in the playoffs missing them entirely 4 of 6 seasons. Overall, prior to 2019, only one game over .500 in the regular season.

    That's John Harbaugh 2013-18. One Lamar Jackson fueled 14-2 season and he's a genius again. Dude was rumored to be coaching for his job last season.

    Y'all would've fired him 4 years ago.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
    Ok....here is one for you, and if message boards social media was available how soon would you be calling for Noll’s ouster.

    Last twelve years as coach. 7 winning seasons. 4 playoff appearances. 2-4 in those playoffs. When would cut Noll loose?
    Noll obviously should have been fired during the 1977 season when the defense temporarily reverted to average for one season, the team backed into the playoffs when the Bengals lost their last game of the regular season, and it had been two whole years since the Steelers had won the Super Bowl.

    Key point in favor of termination would have been Noll losing control of his players with the Lambert and Blount holdouts along with Mel suing Noll

    https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...s/201710200067

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    Yeah losing all those AFC Championship games to teams like Bellichick's Patriots and the late 90s Broncos was so awful. Better to go one-and-done and lose to the Tim Tebow led 8-8 Broncos and the Doug Marrone/Blake Bortles Jaguars.
    As posted above by another poster Cowher and Tomlin both have been good coaches

    But only one of them coached teams that lost two home AFC championship games as 9 and 10 point favorites while barely escaping another home loss as a 12 point favorites

    https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/afc...nship/history/

    That first loss to the Patriots where Brady was knocked out of the game in the first half and the Pats scored on a punt return along with a blocked field goal had the sort of special teams breakdowns for which Tomlin is regularly roasted

    Holding up Cowher as the clearly preferable alternative to Tomlin is laughable given that the torches and pitchforks crowd was out for Cowher’s job at the time as well. But now Cowher was so much better since Tomlin must go.

    Both coaches suffer from the expectation of some fans that it is the birthright of Steelers fans for it always to be like the mid to late 70s glory years

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Here's a fun one. Since his only SB, this coach is 1-2 in the playoffs missing them entirely 4 of 6 seasons. Overall, prior to 2019, only one game over .500 in the regular season.

    That's John Harbaugh 2013-18. One Lamar Jackson fueled 14-2 season and he's a genius again. Dude was rumored to be coaching for his job last season.

    Y'all would've fired him 4 years ago.

    Once again it escapes people that it is extremely difficult to stay at the top. Once most of Cowher's players got old, the team needed to be blown up and a complete rebuild was in order after the 2011 season. The organization systematically turned over nearly the entire roster. That takes time, and there are growing pains. The roster wasn't very good for a number of years. Having Ben and having Tomlin kept this team from being a 3-4 win team for several years.

    That's why I laugh at the people who make fun of Tomlin never having a losing season. Sure, having Ben helped, but it takes strong leadership to have a group of men that don't have great talent not shit themselves when things go sideways. There are quarterbacks and coaches that people here say are great. That they would take them in a heartbeat over Ben and Tomlin. Yet most of those "better" players and coaches had shit seasons with losing records when they didn't have a loaded roster.

    Every coach is going to go through down periods when rosters are weak. To not acknowledge that is just plain ignorance.

    We all wish the team won more, but there were a number of circumstances that occurred that prevented that from happening. This was a team that relied on the offense to win games, and many of Tomlin's big offensive weapons were always injured in the playoffs. Those great players being on the field is the reason everyone says Tomlin should have won more, but those players weren't usually all on the field for the biggest games in the playoffs.

    Noll and Cowher had many down years. To say otherwise is denial on steroids. When I make that statement, I'm not trashing Noll and Cowher. They were terrific coaches. I'm just saying that this stuff happens in football once really good teams get old and the roster needs to be rebuilt, and Tomlin's down seasons have been better than the other two coaches. Great coaches tend to prevent teams from becoming dumpster fires, because without a lot of really good players.....things can spiral out of control very quickly in the NFL if you don't have tremendous leadership. Luckily, this team had it.
    Last edited by pczach; 01-03-2020 at 07:44 AM.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by AtlantaDan View Post
    Cowher’s record in AFC championship games at Three Rivers and Heinz - 1-4 with the one win a come from behind win over a mediocre Colts team that ended with the Steelers surviving a Hail Mary attempt in the end zone on the last play

    That is as sorry a record in championship games at home as that of any head coach I can recall

    Contrasting the playoff skills of Tomlin and Cowher may not be quite the slam dunk for your choice that you think it is

    But at least Cowher is not more popular with you for “political” reasons I guess
    Yeah it’s always interesting how we can be selective with our stats to validate our agenda.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Cowher went to the playoffs twice with Ben. Once going 1-1 and once going 4-0.

    Tomlin went 8 times. SB runs were 5-1 and that leaves non SB runs at 3-6.

    Also the Steelers last won two playoff games in 2016. That's less than 5 years.


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    I'm gonna do a John Madden post.

    If your teams win a championship, they usually don't lose in the postseason

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
    Ok....here is one for you, and if message boards social media was available how soon would you be calling for Noll’s ouster.

    Last twelve years as coach. 7 winning seasons. 4 playoff appearances. 2-4 in those playoffs. When would cut Noll loose?
    Noll in 1985, 86, and 88 would have Steeler Twitter spinning and Steeler Universe selling pitchforks and torches. Oh and that 1987 draft was full of busts. FIRE KNOLL!



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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Here's a fun one. Since his only SB, this coach is 1-2 in the playoffs missing them entirely 4 of 6 seasons. Overall, prior to 2019, only one game over .500 in the regular season.

    That's John Harbaugh 2013-18. One Lamar Jackson fueled 14-2 season and he's a genius again. Dude was rumored to be coaching for his job last season.

    Y'all would've fired him 4 years ago.
    Hell look at Sean Payton. He has been lucky to coach Drew Brees(much better QB than Big Ben) his entire career, and he only has 1 SB to come out of it and multiple losing seasons. The Saints would have been flat out stupid to fire him.

    Pittsburgh fans are just an odd bunch, not sure anyone follows the Penguins but they were fans wanting to fire Mike Sullivan just 2 years after winning back to back cups all because they no longer were having playoff success(winning championships). To Pittsburgh fans, unless you're constantly winning titles the coach should be fired, I think these fans should become Browns fans, they even fire GM's....
    1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. ​Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackAndGold View Post
    Hell look at Sean Payton. He has been lucky to coach Drew Brees(much better QB than Big Ben) his entire career, and he only has 1 SB to come out of it and multiple losing seasons. The Saints would have been flat out stupid to fire him.

    Pittsburgh fans are just an odd bunch, not sure anyone follows the Penguins but they were fans wanting to fire Mike Sullivan just 2 years after winning back to back cups all because they no longer were having playoff success(winning championships). To Pittsburgh fans, unless you're constantly winning titles the coach should be fired, I think these fans should become Browns fans, they even fire GM's....
    Steelers internet would be howling for Payton's firing on an almost annual basis. His pass wacky offense coupled with a total ignoring of defense until recently would have the black and gold faithful outraged.

    Everyone knows the only real way to win football games is a punishing rushing attack that imposes your will on the opponent coupled with a physical defense. Wins from any other formula are just dong wins. Payton is the dong win champ.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Goodell View Post
    I'm gonna do a John Madden post.

    If your team wins a championship, BOOM, they usually don't lose in the postseason
    FIFY.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    Yeah losing all those AFC Championship games to teams like Bellichick's Patriots and the late 90s Broncos was so awful. Better to go one-and-done and lose to the Tim Tebow led 8-8 Broncos and the Doug Marrone/Blake Bortles Jaguars.
    On the Jaguars, Tomlin admits he lost that playoff game for over working the Steelers. Max Starts said so too.

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    Re: Mike Tomlin and Ben and the playoffs. Some interesting numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Yeah it’s always interesting how we can be selective with our stats to validate our agenda.

    Desert Steel,


    It's a wins and losses type of business. Just three playoff wins in the past nine years? Yeah, Tomlin's such a great coach. NOT. Meanwhile, he has had plenty of good teams, yet continues to underachieve in the playoffs and lose to sub 500 teams too often, which often costs us not making it to the playoffs.


    The math won't work out for Tomlin backers. He was so lucky to inherit Ben, a few hall of fame bound players, and something like 17 players that Kevin Colbert drafted that made at least one pro bowl.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    And here's the issue in a nutshell. It's called nostalgia, and it's wrong.

    Cowher's playoff record against Bellicheat (They met only twice in the playoffs):

    2001 season: AFCCG. Lost 24-17.
    2004 season: AFCCG. Lost 41-27.

    Cowher's regular season record against Bellicheat

    2002 Season, Week 1. Lost 30-14
    2004 Season, Week 8. Won 34-20
    2005 Season, Week 3. Lost 23-20

    That is a combined 1-4 against the Pats* with zero wins in the playoffs.

    And, to cut to the chase, most of Cowher's playoff wins came with the roster Noll built. In fact, once he lost that roster, he only went to the playoffs four times out of the next 8 years.

    Build a regular season champion that can't win the big games because he refuses to change his philosophy - Cowher in a nutshell. (Oh, and he was forced to draft Ben. Otherwise, it'd be another AFCCG loss in 2005).

    We can do this all day, but in short, these comparisons are useless.
    Cut to the chase who has a better playoff record, Cowher or Tomlin? Pretty clear. Cowher. End of conversation in that department.

    Also, Cowher won with average QB's which is vey hard in the playoffs. Tomlin often lost with a Hall of fame QB, and better teams.

    What if I were to tell you that Cowher ranks 8th in playoff wins and Tomlin is 26th?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...playoff_record

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