While we're at it...how GREAT would it have been had the Steelers actually drafted some guy...ahhhh what's his name...Dan somethingOriginally Posted by teegre
Those insane defenses covered up what the offense lacked. Much like this year that just happened.
Well they said he was a coke head with small hands, but I hear ya.While we're at it...how GREAT would it have been had the Steelers actually drafted some guy...ahhhh what's his name...Dan something
Those insane defenses covered up what the offense lacked. Much like this year that just happened.
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Logic, stats and facts need not apply for blind Tomlin backers. The sad thing is with better coaching, the Steelers can make it back to the AFC Championship game.
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Nope. Did deeper you'll find that Cowher lost to .500 teams a bit less often, and that Tomlin didn't build anything, he won his lone super bowl very early with Bill Cowher players, 21 of the same 22 starters. Pretty sure the coaching staff was the same OC and DC.12-9 with 4 AFCC losses to 8-7 with two less years of being a HC is end of conversation?
Also Ben was the difference. Cowher had to play most of his coaching career with, Graham, Miler, Stewart, Tomzack. If those were the QB's for Tomlin, he's sunk.
Based on what i've seen its a joke. They fail to even say you have a point. So they opt to band together, and say untrue things about posters who point this stuff out. Once again I'm not on twitter, nor have I copied and pasted stuff from facebook. That's a lame joke, and not true.
However if you really want something from Twitter, there is a forum with ton's of nugget's none of which I have ever posted here.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/firetomlin?lang=en
So here's my first copy and past from the above link!
Steelers Tweeter @SteelersFan__ 30 Dec 2019More
For those keeping track - Mike Tomlin has now won a playoff game in only 4 of his 13 seasons as the Steelers HC#Steelers #FireTomlin #TheStandardIsTheStandard
^^^ This guy is not wrong, and for real bonus points, Tomlin himself admitted he was the problem in the 2007 loss for overworking the players. Yes it happened. Got that Hawkman, Pczach and others? I threw you a bone, my first copy and past from twitter
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
This.
Facts... such as it has been 3 years (not 10) since their last AFCCG appearance.
Maybe he misspoke (honestly, I’m assuming he meant since their last AFCCG victory)... well, it’s been 9 years (not 10)
As I’ve stated/posted in numerous threads over the years, including this thread (scroll back), Cowher’s philosophy was sound. I can not argue with it.
If we used that same philosophy today (using QB money to improve the defense), imagine this current team with the ability to add 2-3 more defenders with Ben’s $30+ million. Heck, just give me two free agents: Aaron Donald and Jamal Adams.
Really though...
ILB Jamie Collins $2 million
SS Jimmie Ward $5 million
NB Tyrann Mathieu $14 million
OC/LG Matthew Paradis $9 million
Of course, Rudolph & Duck would try their darndest to act like Kordell (throw back-breaking INTs).
So what is the proper benchmarks? 4 playoff wins? 6? 2 super bowls? 7? 1?
Look at who is filling all these coaching positions. Kitchens. Garrett. Jay Gruden. The Pats special teams coach-quick name a successful former Pats coach? Vrabel? I guess. Do it 3 years in a row.
It's not always about defending Tomlin. It is more about pleading for rationale logic based expectations for evaluation.
No one wants to step up with those.
By the barometers in this thread and the 978 others, Reid, Harbaugh, McVay, Payton, Carroll, and Bellicheck should be fired tomorrow.
Gotta love how this pic discounts super bowl wins lol. The 9-7 Cardinals with a 40 year old Kurt Warner literally destroyed the entire NFC on their way to the super bowl. The 6 seed Packers in 2010 also ran through the NFC like butter and were probably the best team in the NFL to be honest. No team is perfect but it takes more than luck to make it to the super bowl, all teams were there for a reason.
I'm guessing that was made by StillMill, who can't even celebrate a Super Bowl win if the win wasn't dominant enough. Coaching staff and players humped the dog cause they only won 27-17, when they should have won 84-0! Defense allowed a touchdown and the offense had to punt on some drives. That's the substandard slop you get from coach dumblin in an uninspired, disappointing Super Bowl win. F--------
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
Here is a number. Since 2007 the Steelers won the North division 6 times. Ravens 4 times. Bengals 3 times. Browns 0.
Same span of time in the AFC East division(2007-present) Patriots 12. Dolphins 1. Bills 0. Jets 0.
" "AFC South division Texans 6. Colts 5. Titans 1. Jaguars 1.
" "AFC West division Broncos 5. Chiefs 5. Chargers 3. Raiders 0.
The point of those numbers? Except for in the East the other teams in the conference are actually trying to win games too. 2 good teams with good coaching staffs play a game, 1 team will win and 1 team will lose. Tomlin has coached his team to a 133-74-1 record. That is the numbers of a good and successful coach. Have there been disappointments along the way? Yep. But who has done better? How many HCs have come through the NFL since the 2007 season and how many have done better than Tomlin? THAT is an interesting number as well.
This is kinda fun and informative to play around with: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/
Some highlights. Mike Tomlin is (this is out of a ranking of 500 total NFL head coaches):
19th all time in winning % for NFL head coaches.
15th all time in games over .500 for NFL head coaches.
22nd all time in years team appeared in playoffs for all NFL head coaches. Two years behind Cowher and tied with Harbaugh and Payton.
41st all time in playoff winning % for head coaches.
26th all time in playoff wins for NFL head coaches.
1 of only 32 NFL head coaches to win a SB.
Another fun comparison tool: https://www.footballdb.com/coaches/i...ml?sort=numyrs
Among active NFL head coaches, Mike Tomlin has:
The 4th most total wins
The 4th best winning %
The 2nd most wins since 2007 (the year he was hired).
Among coaches with 13 years as HC, Mike Tomlin is:
3 wins behind Pete Carroll
2 wins ahead of Sean Payton
30 wins ahead of Jon Gruden
Essentially tied or beats every coach not named Belichick or Reid for Conference Championships, Divisions, and Super Bowls.
To be fair and balanced, I will lay out what I see as Tomlin's biggest drawbacks:
Coaches with his gut a bit too much. See this in challenge flags and overly aggressive play-calls. Sometimes it works (I remember a playoff win clinching pass for a first down against the Jets on a run down) and sometimes it all blows up in his face.
Often times too loyal to veteran players. Guys seem to stick around the fringes of the roster for far too long. This is my biggest criticism. I think there are more guys that have the physical and mental abilities needed to play in the NFL than NFL teams recognize. I believe that the bottom 3-6 spots on a roster should be in constant flux trying to find "hidden" talents.
Also sticks with coaches for a bit longer than is necessary. Again, it is a loyalty thing. HOWEVER...this is the same league that just recycled such immortal geniuses as Jason Garrett, Freddie Kitchens, and Jay Gruden into prominent positions. Often when you look into why these guys are recycled again and again, it is because some dude they coached with 5, 10, 15 years ago got a job and brings along his coaching buddies. So maybe, it is more of a league-wide issue than just a Tomlin thing.
Sometimes will only make the "bold" starting roster adjustment or schematic shift when backed into a corner. This is odd for an otherwise aggressive coach. For instance, the Ryan Shazier injury really called for something innovative and defense wide to attempt to deal with. Instead we got Fort and Spence forced into roles they were entirely not able to deal with. I've always wondered why some weird alignments didn't start showing up that just skipped over the ILB position...but I think that I often under-estimate how hard it is to make weekly radical changes to schemes and alignments during an NFL season. I mean no team really does it. There are so many teams every season that suffer injuries to "keystone" positions in their offense or defense and just never really make an adjustment.
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Based on what i've seen its a joke. They fail to even say you have a point. So they opt to band together, and say untrue things about posters who point this stuff out. Once again I'm not on twitter, nor have I copied and pasted stuff from facebook. That's a lame joke, and not true.
However if you really want something from Twitter, there is a forum with ton's of nugget's none of which I have ever posted here.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/firetomlin?lang=en
So here's my first copy and past from the above link!
Steelers Tweeter @SteelersFan__ 30 Dec 2019More
For those keeping track - Mike Tomlin has now won a playoff game in only 4 of his 13 seasons as the Steelers HC#Steelers #FireTomlin #TheStandardIsTheStandard
^^^ This guy is not wrong, and for real bonus points, Tomlin himself admitted he was the problem in the 2007 loss for overworking the players. Yes it happened. Got that Hawkman, Pczach and others? I threw you a bone, my first copy and past from twitter
In post #110 of this thread, you demanded that I answer your questions. My favorite part was the first question where you ask about who had more talent, Harbaugh or Tomlin. Then follow that with "Well..." Like you are demanding an immediate answer and challenging me as if you just did a walk off with that question.
In post #113 in this thread, I respond to your post and answer all your questions with real answers.
I then ask you a few questions of my own after posting stats and I make some points that counter your arguments against Tomlin.
What do you do?
You quote another poster several days later that appears to agree with you.
You say that you never posted other people's words as your own which is counter to other people here that have seen you do it because they read the same post from other places.
You then post somebody else's work again, only you provide a link this time to actually give them credit for their thoughts. That's awfully big of you to do that....
The chart you post above has a blurb about every year Tomin has been a head coach here, and it is a hit piece that only tells one side of the story. Saying other teams didn't have their starting QB....Lost to this QB....Lost to an old QB......lost to several sub-.500 teams...….etc... If you're going list everything you see as a hit against Tomlin, you have to counter that when Ben was banged up....when AB and Bell were injured.....when the Steelers had a backup QB.....etc.. You never do any of that......EVER. You keep posting this bullshit.....Bullshit in the form of someone else's words or charts and stats that are someone else's work. That work by someone else manages to bang Tomlin even when they get to the Super Bowl and even the victories.
Your opinions are completely discredited when you can't even give credit in games they win. Your thought process is flawed, and you're full of shit.
Instead of mentioning me by slipping it into a post where you quote someone else, be a man and quote my post, post #113, and respond to that and answer the questions I posed to you. Don't be a chickenshit mentioning me in a post where you are quoting someone else and then try to declare victory.
You're a fraud. You're a coward.
Don't demand that others answer your questions, and then ignore their posts when they crush you with answers to your questions and ask you to answer questions. Don't avoid it like a little kid. Quote the post and answer. Don't pretend that the responses to you don't exist.
If you want to be treated like a serious poster with credible thoughts, post your own words. With those words, give your own opinions, and have a legitimate back and forth with people. Posting a set of stats that only show part of the picture doesn't prove anything. Every time someone posts stats that counter what you have posted, gives good answers to your questions, or asks you to answer questions....you are MIA. You don't acknowledge any of it or respond directly to it.
That chart you post above is complete shit. Anybody can make a list like that about any team or any coach. Cherry picking negative information and making derogatory comments about every single game listed(including wins) is total nonsense.
You also say that Cowher had a better winning percentage than Tomlin against teams with losing records. In the real world, that also tells you that Tomlin had more success against good teams with winning records, doesn't it? But why would you be interested in that? The truth, objectivity, and perspective is foreign to you.
Reply to post #113 and address the points I made and answer the questions I asked you. Also, make your own points and use your own words.
It's time to put your big-boy pants on.
A good bench mark depends on the talent you have. Reid has good talent. His team is in the super bowl and will likely win in. I don't think much of Garrett. Gruden's team last season in my opinion over achieved big time at 7-9. They were 4-12 last year. So there you have it based on the names you mentioned.
The Steelers have the talent to make the playoffs every year and win the division at least every other year. We are not the Browns or Bengals. .
Let's use logic. Since 2015 we have only won the division once. Our last playoff win was 2016. This is 2020. Now, given our talent, I'd say we have underachieved. Underachieving is on the coaching. You might disagree, it would be hoot to see the season predictions here. You're right to say 11-5 or 10-6 for any season Tomlin has had with Ben, and your right to think we will win a playoff game. Has not happened. We are 3 and 6 in our last nine playoff games. That sucks.
In the past two seasons, the Steelers were 8-8 and 9-6-1, both with late-season collapses.
I'd take Reid, Harbaugh, McVay, Payton, and Bellicheck over Tomlin. Not a fan of Carroll, as I think he cost his team a super bowl win, yet his playoff record at 11-9 is better than Tomlin's and he did win a super bowl not so long ago with a team he built up. That was impressive. He wasn't handed a super bowl team in their prime. That was Tomlin. Barry Switzer won a super bowl with Jimmy Johnson's players too.
Some may roll eyes at Reid, but his team has won 10 games or more 5 seasons in a row, winning 4 playoffs game, perhaps 5 in the process. That is meeting expectations. He runs the offense. The coaches you mention augment their teams. Tomlin picks dolts like Haley and delegates. See the difference?
No you won't but please correct me if you do.
In post #110 of this thread, you demanded that I answer your questions. My favorite part was the first question where you ask about who had more talent, Harbaugh or Tomlin. Then follow that with "Well..." Like you are demanding an immediate answer and challenging me as if you just did a walk off with that question.
In post #113 in this thread, I respond to your post and answer all your questions with real answers.
I then ask you a few questions of my own after posting stats and I make some points that counter your arguments against Tomlin.
What do you do?
You quote another poster several days later that appears to agree with you.
You say that you never posted other people's words as your own which is counter to other people here that have seen you do it because they read the same post from other places.
You then post somebody else's work again, only you provide a link this time to actually give them credit for their thoughts. That's awfully big of you to do that....
The chart you post above has a blurb about every year Tomin has been a head coach here, and it is a hit piece that only tells one side of the story. Saying other teams didn't have their starting QB....Lost to this QB....Lost to an old QB......lost to several sub-.500 teams...….etc... If you're going list everything you see as a hit against Tomlin, you have to counter that when Ben was banged up....when AB and Bell were injured.....when the Steelers had a backup QB.....etc.. You never do any of that......EVER. You keep posting this bullshit.....Bullshit in the form of someone else's words or charts and stats that are someone else's work. That work by someone else manages to bang Tomlin even when they get to the Super Bowl and even the victories.
Your opinions are completely discredited when you can't even give credit in games they win. Your thought process is flawed, and you're full of shit.
Instead of mentioning me by slipping it into a post where you quote someone else, be a man and quote my post, post #113, and respond to that and answer the questions I posed to you. Don't be a chickenshit mentioning me in a post where you are quoting someone else and then try to declare victory.
You're a fraud. You're a coward.
Don't demand that others answer your questions, and then ignore their posts when they crush you with answers to your questions and ask you to answer questions. Don't avoid it like a little kid. Quote the post and answer. Don't pretend that the responses to you don't exist.
If you want to be treated like a serious poster with credible thoughts, post your own words. With those words, give your own opinions, and have a legitimate back and forth with people. Posting a set of stats that only show part of the picture doesn't prove anything. Every time someone posts stats that counter what you have posted, gives good answers to your questions, or asks you to answer questions....you are MIA. You don't acknowledge any of it or respond directly to it.
That chart you post above is complete shit. Anybody can make a list like that about any team or any coach. Cherry picking negative information and making derogatory comments about every single game listed(including wins) is total nonsense.
You also say that Cowher had a better winning percentage than Tomlin against teams with losing records. In the real world, that also tells you that Tomlin had more success against good teams with winning records, doesn't it? But why would you be interested in that? The truth, objectivity, and perspective is foreign to you.
Reply to post #113 and address the points I made and answer the questions I asked you. Also, make your own points and use your own words.
It's time to put your big-boy pants on.
You buried with the twitter post I presented. Try to come back from that, if you can.
top crying and name calling and try to answer my questions. Over the years, who has had more talent, the Steelers or the Ravens? Well...
Now tell me why Harbaugh has a much better playoff records.
Did any famous X Ravens question their head coach? Well you do know Steeler legends and their monitory owner question Tomlin? WHY?
I credit Harbaugh for figuring out how to use Jackson best. He won coach year once, perhaps twice, which is something the under achieve Tomlin will never do.
You can not change the facts, I'm just presenting them.
I'm not crying. I'm laughing at you.
There's a big difference.
I think the talent level of both teams has been very even.
How is this for facts since they have both become head coaches?
Since Tomlin and Harbaugh have become head coaches, Tomlin has won 6 division championships....Harbaugh 4
Tomlin's record against Harbaugh in the playoffs: 2-1
Number of Conference Championships: Tomlin 2...…..Harbaugh 1
Now tell me something. Why does Harbaugh have a losing record against Tomin in the playoffs?
Who gives a shit what a disgruntled ex-Steelers asshole player says about the coach?
Harbaugh didn't figure out how to use Lamar Jackson, he revolutionized the game according to many...…..and then went one-and-done in the playoffs this year with 12 Pro Bowls players on the roster, including the NFL MVP. Please explain Harbaugh's greatness this year. (Hint: You crush Tomlin for losing in the playoffs with great talent)
Just the facts....you know....the facts that you omitted from your posts. Now deal with these facts and answer the questions.
>>>My reply to #113 You think the talent level has been even, okay lately the Ravnes have been better lately. The Steelers have not won the division since 2015, yet you say the talent has been even. Thanks for proving my point!
Since Tomlin and Harbaugh have been head coaches... Okay, One guy has been coaching two years longer than they other, so how is this a fair comparison? It's not. Yet one guy who has been coaching LESS has more playoff wins and a better playoff records that they guy who has been coaching more. Ouvh. You are not impressing me at all.
As for replies, I have a busy life and can't alway reply the next day. But here's my reply to your crap post #113. Also stop making for Tomlin based on injuries. Every coach has to deal with injures. If you saw AB and Bell this year we don't miss them at all.
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Those are some real thoughtful, deep answers there.
This post by you pretty much sums up your complete posting catalog and demonstrates how little you really think about both sides of the argument.
Three idiotic paragraphs with short comments, no real breakdown or thoughtful answers, and you believe each one is a mic drop.
Dude, a little self-awareness goes a long way.
Also, being able to have a conversation with people involves more than saying "Me right. You wrong!"
All you did was embarrass yourself when you could have established yourself as a credible poster.
Congratulations.....
I guess I don't understand how you are determining your benchmarks. Surely more than 2 teams each season have the talent to appear in a SB. For instance, is this year's Saints team underachieving? If so, should Payton be fired? Same could be said about Harbaugh and McVay and Carroll.
I think Reid does make his team better -- on offense. But not on defense. Harbaugh is reliant on his coordinators (Roman and Pees/Martindale) to the exact same degree as Tomlin. Payton is basically like Reid, an offensive guru but a zero on the defensive side of the ball. McVay -- I honestly think the jury is still out on him. The Patriots gave the league a blueprint for dealing with much of his fancy offensive schemes. Then McVay made next to no adjustments over a difficult 2019 season.
I have long argued that Carroll and Schneider (I think that is the GM) got far too much credit for their roster building job. All they really did was leverage Carroll's advantages from his college recruiting days and drafted guys that he knew would fit his system. Then when an about 4 year window ran out on that extra knowledge, the Seahawks draft record came back to in line with the rest of the league. So kudos to them for leveraging the advantage they had, but it isn't all that "WOW" for me.
Again, all I really see are arbitrary benchmarks of "more wins" based on an individual assessment of roster talent in a vacuum. When you compare Tomlin to his peers, he is, at worst, a push. Is Tomlin the greatest coach in the league? Of course not. Does he delegate more than some? Yes. Do other highly successful coaches delegate the same as he does? Absolutely. What Tomlin does is win football games at statistically impressive rate. Does he win everyone he should? Nope. But no coach in the league really does. Not over a multiple seasons. The margin between the best team in the league and the worst team in the league is so thin as to be hardly be visible anymore.
As to the viability of his coordinators as coaches, I already laid out that I am not impressed by his loyalty to underwhelming coaches. However, I also showed that this is a very strong and persistent league wide trend. Coaches hire their buddies. over and over again.
So could the Steelers justify firing Tomlin? Sure. Would anything different happen? Well the comparisons and league-wide number say not much would really change for the better.
Indeed... it’s obviously StillMill. As I’ve mentioned before, he kicked me off of his site for celebrating the victory in Super Bowl XLIII.
As far as downplaying victories, the flip side of that coin is this view of Tomlin’s playoff losses:
2007: Harrison got held, which allowed Garrard to get that first down
2010: lost to Super Bowl champion
2011: Tebow miracle game... some of those throws Tebow would never make again given a million attempts.
2014: lost to division rival
2015: lost to Super Bowl champion
2016: lost to Super Bowl champion
2017: lost to Jags (who’ve always had our number). Also, the “Jesse Caught It” game forced us into a lower seed; had Al Riveron not gaffes that call, we would have played Titans in the divisional round (a team that historically has NOT had our number).
@Six Rings
I see that you say that no one responds to you. Have you read through this thread? Really... have you?
For example, you keep mentioning John Harbaugh. And, Sean Payton. You mention the past six years of Tomlin’s playoffs.
Those points have been replied to.
SUMMATION:
Are you here to actually discuss things? Really. Because, you seem to ignore replies to your posts.
And, I’m not talking about “immediately replying”. We all have jobs and families. No one expects you to post within a day. I’m saying that when you do return to the threads... you scan right past any responses to you and cry foul that no one has answered your queries.
It (again) appears as though you are simply taking snippets from elsewhere, posting them here, and then flying away. This may or may not actually be the case, but it certainly appears that way.
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
Injuries....Every team deals with injuries....While this is a true statement it is also a statement out of context. When a team goes into a season expecting to play with their HoF QB and then lose him in the 2nd game, that is different than just dealing with injuries. When a team goes into playoff games having prepared with having their very talented star players and then those players go down in the 1st half, that again is different than just dealing with injuries. Context is everything. So yes, injury is not an excuse, but it can be a viable reason things go sideways. How many teams have you seen deal with the injuries and the personnel changes over a season like the Steelers did in 2019 and even sniff the playoffs? The very fact that the Steelers were in the playoff hunt right up to the end is because of coaching. AND this has been the case for a long time. Even with his flaws because we all have them, Tomlin has been a great coach. Flawed yes but great.
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Six Rings has EPIC written all over him!
always a surefire way to have people take you seriously on a message board...
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Actually, I said that to Six Rings. He replied to my post, but corrupted the format.
I was responding to a post where he told me to stop crying.
difference is, you're a respected poster already with 4588 posts.
Six Rings comes along with his 576 posts and tells you to stop crying and insults you and said something about a month ago that showed how little class he has and really pissed me off.
I've been posting with you on different message boards for many years now, and neither one of us has ever disrespected one another.
other very well respected posters also seem to have a problem with him, Six Rings needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and change his approach.
“If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.”
― Raylan Givens Justified
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Thanks for the kind words.
I just wanted to give full disclosure. I'm not here to deceive anyone. I wanted you to know that I said that so he can be judged on his own words.
that's because you're a class act!
That still hurts. Not only was he the greatest QB to ever play in the NFL (IMO), he was a Pittsburgh guy. He would have been THE face on the city’s Mt. Rushmore.While we're at it...how GREAT would it have been had the Steelers actually drafted some guy...ahhhh what's his name...Dan something
Alas...
I still say the BEST pure passer ever
Yep, to me that’s the one that got away.
Yep, and Emily from the 2nd floor. Wait what we talkin bout here?
You off the rails man!Yep, and Emily from the 2nd floor. Wait what we talkin bout here?
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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE PUT THE POLICE TAPE ONTO THIS THREAD �� NOW!!!!
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