Yea and he doesn't pass the eyeball test for me. Just like Artie Burns I don't see him improving down the road. That said he is the least of the teams problems now.Originally Posted by Six Rings
Yea and he doesn't pass the eyeball test for me. Just like Artie Burns I don't see him improving down the road. That said he is the least of the teams problems now.
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Hey....hey....don't be so tough on my cousin Bo!
Edmunds gave up a play...ok.
Next time Joe Haden gives one up, are you going to call for his head?
No. Haden is a top player with a fine body of work. Edmunds, isn't.
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He's a second year player on one of the best defenses in the NFL. He's doing alright.
All right would be a little generous. What safety wouldn't want to play with the Steelers pass rush?
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We had a long list of safeties that sucked ass with similar personnel.
I just think you're downplaying his role in the defense. They use him in every conceivable formation or defensive set. Last year I believe he led the team in snaps as a rookie. He is a very versatile player. I know he hasn't shown the best ball skills, but his versatility has allowed the defense to show offenses the same personnel but multiple defenses run from that grouping. It makes it more difficult for offenses to identify what the defense is doing. Edmunds and Fitzpatrick never have to come off the field .
Last edited by pczach; 12-26-2019 at 12:03 PM.
I, too, loved me some Justin Reid. He would be a perfect fit. But... that is spilled milk.
Jessie Bates is a FS. He wouldn’t fit into this defense... and he’s top five in missed tackles (talk about a frustrating player to have as you last line of defense).
Back to Terrell Edmunds...
As I’ve stated in other threads, the kid has progressed each season.
2018: out of position
2019: in position, doesn’t turn head/doesn’t look for the ball, called for DPI (or, gives up catch)
2020: in position, turns head/looks for the ball, tries to break up the catch
2021: in position, turns head/looks for the ball, breaks up the catch
2022 & beyond: in position, turns head/looks for the ball, breaks up the catch, occasional INT
Mike Hilton to me is more valuable in the defense and he doesn't even start. While being deployable is nice, not making plays and giving up too much of them is not. Edmunds has perhaps the worst ball skills of any starting safety in the NFL, he's fundamentally a wreck in coverage, and doesn't seem to play to his timed 40 yard dash speed and isn't fluid in changing directions, which is something I worried about as I didn't see any reported cone or shuttle drills on him at the combine.
Maybe he'll improve a bit in his third season. Or he can regress and become the next Artie Burns. If I were to rank the most important players on defense in order he would not crack the top 9. Could be outside the top 11, and there are only 11 starters.
The Steelers just don't do a good job of drafting DB's. I'd rather buy them in free agency. Don't get me wrong, I'm not for benching him. Depth at safety is very thin.
Last edited by Six Rings; 12-28-2019 at 03:03 PM.
You said it better then I could! Don't expect Edmunds to improve and again he doesn't pass the eyeball test to me!
Edmunds is the clear cut weak link in the secondary
You could expand that to defense. Barron was the initial goat, but he's been playing well lately.
Terrell Edmunds is the 11th best starter on this defense... just as Larry Foote was the “weakest link” on that 2008 squad.
SUMMATION:
1-10... both defenses were/are stacked.
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
The funny thing about this thread is that here I am defending Edmunds, and we just lost a game to the Jets.....a team with a safety I was railing for a couple years ago....Marcus Maye.
Of course we all wish Edmunds were a phenom, but he isn't. He is clearly doing enough right to be on maybe the best defense in the NFL.
More Data on Edmunds.
I already mentioned that Edmunds has horrible ball skills with, but 3 passes defended for the season and zero interceptions. ALL other starting DB'S that played a full season have more than 3 passes defensed. He also led the team in miss tackles and was victimized / run over on a TD score vs. the Ravens. No forced fumbles, or QB sacks either.
I indicated he had been picked on in coverage too. Here's the data:
Edmunds was targeted 50 times and game up 36 completions. 72% of the passes that went his way were complete, which is horrible. Only three broken-up passes out of 50? Not good. More concerning is where he is being targeted. He's not covering easy dump-off passes, yet 72% complete down the field? That's terrible coverage. What QB is 72% accurate down the field? How about none. In average Edmunds give us 14.8 yards per completion. With our pass rush, he should be thriving. On another team with an average pass rush, Edmunds would be toast.
Edmunds gave up 5 TD's through the air and surrendered a total of 533 yards.
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...E/EdmuTe00.htm
Don't get me wrong, I do think he's our 2nd best safety on the team. ( thats not saying much is depth is very thin ) He's just a disappointment as a first round pick, looks more like a package player to me, not an ideal starter.
I agree, HOWEVER Foote didn't give up big plays. He was solid role player. Good on the blitz, and didn't miss many tackles. Edmunds give up too many plays. Edmunds is a little stiff, doesn't change directions smoothly, or play to his times 40 yard dash speed. I have heard he might be better adding 15-20 pounds and playing ILB.
https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/terrell-edmunds/51334
Context to the other numbers. 21st out of all safeties. Scary thing is that is still top third of all safeties across the league.
Re-drafting 2018 and 2019...
Would you rather...
2018: Trade up for Rashaan Evans (which the Steelers tried to do) at the expense of not having a R2 pick with which the drafted James Washington. But, in 2019, you’d have your R1 abd R2 picks (to fill in the holes at safety and WR).
OR
Have Terrell Edmunds, James Washington, and Devin Bush (as it actually went down).
NOTE: No swapping out Justin Reid (or some other player in 2018) for Edmunds. That’s not the point of this hypothetical. That said, the point kind of is: would you rather have Edmunds & Bush ...OR... Evans and some safety from 2019.
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3 Reel Treasure Slots Champion!
I wanted Evans pretty bad, so to be honest, I would take scenario 2. I know that means no Washington, and that would hurt. I just think we are so good at finding WR talent that maybe we could have gotten someone just as talented or still been able to get Washington in the 3rd and Mason in the 4th.
Likely a push? Evans and Darnell Savage doesn't seem all that bad. But is that really any better than Edmunds and Bush? I don't think so. I will say that Bush seems to have more of a "talent" for being around the ball than Evans does. But I have not watched Evans anywhere near as much.
The thing that becomes interesting is the second round pick. A TE and WR (AJ Brown) go off the board right before their pick. Assume they still love DJ at the top of the 3rd round...so Miles Sanders instead of Benny Snell?
Array title="pczach has a reputation beyond repute">
Yep. There are people trying to destroy this kid, but they don't realize that offenses are always trying to scheme so that WRs are covered by safeties. A safety, by definition, isn't a cornerback. They will never have the pure coverage skills of a corner...particularly a strong safety.
That's why those numbers in your link tell the real story...which is safeties are not cornerbacks and most don't have elite cover skills. People don't want to hear that, and they use stats to try to show that Edmunds is garbage. If they did any research, they would know what you uncovered and stop trying to destroy a young player for things they simply don't understand.
I will never understand why it is so important to some people to tear down a particular player at all costs. They will argue to the end of the earth to rip them apart because they think a player isn't any good, and will ignore any information that tells them otherwise.
Again, nobody is saying he's Troy. He is a second year player that is playing on one of the best defenses in the NFL. He's doing something right.
They need to give the kid some time. His level of play will reveal itself over time. He is only in the league for 2 seasons, yet people are trying to mischaracterize his current play, and declare him as a disappointing finished product.
All I got is that people like easy and simple answers. Looking at Edmunds trailing a play or turning and running down a WR as they score a TD or make a big play can be readily seen on our TVs. Then it is a short step to figure that Edmunds stinks. Couple that with the self-fulfilling prophecy that he was a massive draft day reach and you have the recipe for a new Steelers internet object of fan hate.
I also think that folks need to place far far more of football into context. What is that player/team doing versus other teams? What are other teams doing? Etc. Etc. But it is far easier to set arbitrary standards and benchmarks that are not anchored in any objective reality and then bang the table over and over again when a team or player fails to meet them.
When Edmunds is targeted, over 70% of the passes that come his way are completions. The QB rating on these passes is over 139. If he'd make a play on the ball, some of this would even out. He's gone 29 games without an interception, and did not force a fumble this year either. Mix in the fact that he lead the Steelers in missed tackles, and you get a disappointment. He doesn't pass the eyes test either. A veteran free agent safety might beat him out next season. He starts because of the talent at safety aside from Fitzpatrick very thin.
As per usual, you have missed the point entirely. Neither shocking nor surprising.
Maybe go see if there is a post on Facebook or somewhere that you can copy and paste.
EDIT: I should stop being such a jerk.
I totally agree with you on Edmunds targets, completion %, and lack of turnovers. Not a single disputed point. The point was that if you put those #'s in the context of ALL safeties in the NFL (at least 32x2=64) Edmunds is ONLY the 21st worst safety - at least according to PFF. There must be some pretty bad safety play across the league. So to put some context on the negatives you have identified in Edmunds, there are 43 guys playing a worse version of safety than he is and he is only 32 games into his career. What if next season he is only 5% better? He might be a top 15 safety then. Couple that with the fact that he is being asked to do all the dirty work on defense so that others can make "splash" plays and I am pretty hesitant to just bash the guy.
TL;DR -- Edmunds may not be all that great, but there are FAR worse starting SS options across the league. Be careful what you wish for.
Last edited by Mojouw; 01-10-2020 at 06:53 PM.
PFF " thinks " Edmunds is only the 21st worst at Safety ( Both strong and free )??? Post that crap here for a laugh, I want to see who's 22nd and beyond. My data that Edmunds is the worst ball athlete among starting safties in the NFL is spot on. You'd struggle to find a safety who gave up a higher completion percentage as well.
Allow me to add more color so you can stop being such a jerk.
During the second half of the season, teams seldom targeted Fitzpatrick. I read just two times in the last few games with is rather remarkable. However, when you have a great player on one side of the defensive backfield and a well below average player on the other side ( Edmunds ), deciding where to pass the football becomes an easy decision. Edmunds is a terrible ball hawk. No interceptions in the past 29 games and just three passes broken up for the season. QB’s have the green light to not only pick on him ( He gave up 72% of his targets as completions ), but throw 50/50 balls in his direction. Edmunds also lead the team in missed tackles.
Below is Walter Football's list of free-agent safeties. ( Note where Sean Davis is ) While we can't afford a top guy, I think a mid-level free agent safety like Boston or Wilson could remove our weak link. With our pass rush a with a middle of the road starting safety could look rather good and make it that much harder to pass the ball on the Steelers. With Foster all but cut, we get back 4 million on the cap. Ax Punter Jordan Berry and you’re looking at another 1.8M. Then draft a punter for 500k on the cap. Enough ( 5.3 million in cap space ) to bring in a free agent safety who can play. Who likes this idea?
https://walterfootball.com/freeagents2020S.php
Wait, wait wait... let’s get down to what’s truly important:
For whom did Terrell vote in the 2016 election: Hillary or Donald???
Ha, ha... trick question: he voted Libertarian.
He is second only to Bush for most tackles on the team.
It astounds me how people love to go looking for negative stats to prove a point and BS about “eye test”. Here’s a positive one for you. Edmunds was 35th in total tackles in the NFL for the 2019 season and 28th in solo tackles. So maybe he missed the most, but he made quite a few, and could that be that he was targeted the most, and when when your talking about the number three passing defense and the number four defense in points allowed, I’m not sure why there’s so much ragging on a second year, player that is hopefully still developing.
Edmunds tied with 3 other players for 35th overall. Here's by beef Hawkman, too many of those tackles were from letting his man get open and hitting them after they caught the pass. I'd like to see a break down of how many of those tackles were vs the pass. Edmunds might lead ALL NFL players on tackles vs the pass, and that's not a good thing for a DB. If Bush played a bit more, he'd lead the team in tackles and unlike Edmunds he makes lots of splash plays.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...alse&Submit=Go
Well, you also have an extra 2nd ( 2019 ) and 3rd ( 2020 ) pick third if you didn't pick the Edmunds, Washington and Bush option. I was very high on DK Metcalf, that guy looks like star WR. The trade up to get Bush was closely.
MY draft win 2019 would have been
Edge - M Sweat - 50 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 forced fumbles as a rookie on a bad team. Played well and is about 12 million cheaper than what it would take to re-sign Dupree
WR DK Metcalf - A freak who is making big difference in the playoffs
ILB Pratt. - A big mobile ILB who produced some impressive numbers starting later in the year
CB Layne - Not looking good )
+ I'd have an extra 3rd this year and whatever it takes to re-sign Dupree to re-sign any stud out there or two pretty good NFL veteran free agents.
Is the Steelers 2019 effort better? Well see.
Get rid of Barron to save cap and have Edmunds switch back n forth at mlb and safety. He maybe very good helping out at mlb. Oh and yea grab another safety through draft or FA.
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